PAs can now become DOs without taking an MCAT

[medickdb]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Not judging people on their degrees. A poster was saying that the standard to get into PA schools is higher than NP and I want to make sure that he knows that they are a few PA schools that still award AS degree and bunch of them still award BS degree. I would be the first to say that the MCAT is a BS test and for the most part has no predictive value of how good of a physician that someone will be. I have been in healthcare for many years and I have met many foreign physicians and some Americans who went to the islands, and they are excellent physicians... I even gave an anecdote of my friend who went to AUA after getting 17 on the MCAT ( 3 attempts) and was able to get 218 on step1 (1 attempt). I know it is not a great score but it just show you how much of a BS test the MCAT is. I am glad LECOM waive that requirement for PA and I think more DO schools should have program like that for NP/PA.

The only problem with that is the NP curriculum is designed around the nursing model, not the medical model. Is there much of a difference? I'm not entirely sure. There are a lot of differing opinions on the matter.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The only problem with that is the NP curriculum is designed around the nursing model, not the medical model. Is there much of a difference? I'm not entirely sure. There are a lot of differing opinions on the matter.

I think they would have to make them take some prereqs like gen chem 1 & 2, orgo 1 & 2, biochem and genetics so they can be more comfortable with med school basic science...

 

[medickdb]

I think they would have to make them take some prereqs like gen chem 1 & 2, orgo 1 & 2, biochem and genetics so they can be more comfortable with med school basic science...

So, you're saying they should take all of the general prerequisites for medical school plus biochem and genetics which are only recommended or required by some schools. That means they would be taking the same classes we have to take plus a couple more minus the MCAT.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

So, you're saying they should take all of the general prerequisites for medical school plus biochem and genetics which are only recommended or required by some schools. That means they would be taking the same classes we have to take plus a couple more minus the MCAT.

Yep... I would waive gen bio and physics and replace them with biochem and/or genetics...

 

[medickdb]

Yep... I would waive gen bio and physics and replace them with biochem and/or genetics...

I wouldn't really call that fair. It would be easier for them just to do all of the typical premed classes and take the silly MCAT which, I think, is what they should do.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I wouldn't really call that fair. It would be easier for them just to do all of the typical premed classes and take the silly MCAT which, I think, is what they should do.

No it would not be easier... You have to understand the MCAT is not that easy as most people in here might believe.... Studying for that test can be a pain...

 

[medickdb]

No it would not be easier... You have to understand the MCAT is not that easy as most people in here might believe.... Studying for that test can be a pain...

If you think studying for that test is a pain... You do realize most of the board tests are around 8 hours long. That's on top of all of the other tests you have to take in your respective graduate education.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

If you think studying for that test is a pain... You do realize most of the board tests are around 8 hours long. That's on top of all of the other tests you have to take in your respective graduate education.

I realize that... I have talked to physicians and residents who did not do good on the MCAT and killed the board, and almost all of them told me the two test are different. Most of them told me the board is easier because most of it is memorization as opposed to the MCAT, which requires little memorization.

 

[caide]

If you think studying for that test is a pain... You do realize most of the board tests are around 8 hours long. That's on top of all of the other tests you have to take in your respective graduate education.

PA here. I'm happy they waived the MCAT because the majority of PAs who are interested in this program are many years out from taking their basic science courses. The PA boards are similar to the USMLE Step 2 (I believe the Kaplan Qbanks are the same), so its not the rigor of the board prep that is the issue. Imagine having to restudy for the MCAT as a MS3/MS4.

There should be more programs like this, allowing more competent clinicians to establish themselves in higher medical education.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The only problem with that is the NP curriculum is designed around the nursing model, not the medical model. Is there much of a difference? I'm not entirely sure. There are a lot of differing opinions on the matter.

Honestly, not to sound like a douche or an elitism, but the populations applying to nursing, pa, and medicine are not the same and vastly different. The caliber of nursing students I've met is largely unimpressive save for a few who went far beyond the normal requirements. It's not exactly the curriculum that troubles me, it's the fact that most nurses probably couldn't cut it. I mean in my A&P class my professor actually stopped the class and had to give a lecture on central dogma of biology and proteins because the majority of the class didn't get it.

PAs in my opinion know their stuff and having worked with one, I'm pretty sure they're capable of becoming doctors.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Honestly, not to sound like a douche or an elitism, but the populations applying to nursing, pa, and medicine are not the same and vastly different. The caliber of nursing students I've met is largely unimpressive save for a few who went far beyond the normal requirements. It's not exactly the curriculum that troubles me, it's the fact that most nurses probably couldn't cut it. I mean in my A&P class my professor actually stopped the class and had to give a lecture on central dogma of biology and proteins because the majority of the class didn't get it.

PAs in my opinion know their stuff and having worked with one, I'm pretty sure they're capable of becoming doctors.

You sound like an elitist... How did you learn about the central dogma of biology? I am pretty sure it was taught to you in maybe intro biology... A lot nursing students do not take gen or intro bio. They take A&P I and II, a watered down one in most cases. Therefore, they dont spend time teaching them about stuff like that...

 

[medickdb]

Honestly, not to sound like a douche or an elitism, but the populations applying to nursing, pa, and medicine are not the same and vastly different. The caliber of nursing students I've met is largely unimpressive save for a few who went far beyond the normal requirements. It's not exactly the curriculum that troubles me, it's the fact that most nurses probably couldn't cut it. I mean in my A&P class my professor actually stopped the class and had to give a lecture on central dogma of biology and proteins because the majority of the class didn't get it.

PAs in my opinion know their stuff and having worked with one, I'm pretty sure they're capable of becoming doctors.

That's why I said I wasn't sure. Thanks for the perspective.

Whenever I have to recertify ACLS, there are always a bunch of nurses in the class. And, we always have to go over very basic anatomy and physiology of the heart as well as basic EKG interpretation. They didn't get it the first time, and there's no way they're going to get it in a couple of hours. Besides, they are in a recertification class. One should understand the basic principles already. The class serves to refresh and go over the updated algorithms. Then again, it's not only nurses who seem to struggle with this. It's just that there happen to be a lot of nurses needing to recertify, so they are the ones in the classes most often. When I recertified a few months ago, there was a NP whose main focus was EM there. The instructor had no idea what she was talking about half the time (She actually got in trouble later with the American Heart Association for not meeting the standard.), and everyone just sat there soaking it up, him included. In order to understand the science behind the medicine, I've noticed that it most often has to be a nurse who went above and beyond and learned it on his or her own.

 

[medickdb]

PA here. I'm happy they waived the MCAT because the majority of PAs who are interested in this program are many years out from taking their basic science courses. The PA boards are similar to the USMLE Step 2 (I believe the Kaplan Qbanks are the same), so its not the rigor of the board prep that is the issue. Imagine having to restudy for the MCAT as a MS3/MS4.

There should be more programs like this, allowing more competent clinicians to establish themselves in higher medical education.

I wasn't talking about PAs getting the MCAT waived in that post. I think PAs should be able to get the test waived. I was talking about NPs in response to another post.

 

[Acls85]

i went through this whole process with LECOM and got in. Like most medical schools, there are minimum requirements for admission, for example, sGPA, MCAT, Prereqs. Most schools will use this minimum to decided if you get a secondary application. To get the waiver, you have to have a competitive sGPA, SAT scores, and PANCE. they use those three things to determine a academic index score (this academic index score is also used by 6-year MD programs who dont require an MCAT) to determine if you meet the minimum to receive a secondary application and interview. the MCAT is a piece of the pie but it will not guarantee you admissions into the school. your packet goes to an admissions committee like everyone else.. the difference is that your app says you met the minimum requirement to fulfill the MCAT score.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You sound like an elitist... How did you learn about the central dogma of biology? I am pretty sure it was taught to you in maybe intro biology... A lot nursing students do not take gen or intro bio. They take A&P I and II, a watered down one in most cases. Therefore, they dont spend time teaching them about stuff like that...

General biology for majors is a requirement for A&P 1 & 2 in every school in my state and I presume most colleges.

And the central dogma is just Dna -> Rna -> protein.
With a little bit of knowledge about the fact that ribosomes exist in two forms and transcribe.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

General biology for majors is a requirement for A&P 1 & 2 in every school in my state and I presume most colleges.

And the central dogma is just Dna -> Rna -> protein.
With a little bit of knowledge about the fact that ribosomes exist in two forms and transcribe.

Nope... I took A&P I/II without taking gen bio at a state school...

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Honestly, not to sound like a douche or an elitism, but the populations applying to nursing, pa, and medicine are not the same and vastly different. The caliber of nursing students I've met is largely unimpressive save for a few who went far beyond the normal requirements. It's not exactly the curriculum that troubles me, it's the fact that most nurses probably couldn't cut it. I mean in my A&P class my professor actually stopped the class and had to give a lecture on central dogma of biology and proteins because the majority of the class didn't get it.

PAs in my opinion know their stuff and having worked with one, I'm pretty sure they're capable of becoming doctors.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Nope... I took A&P I/II without taking gen bio at a state school...

That's unique. Did they also get to skip gen bio when signing up for micro? Seems like as a whole nonsensical.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yah, it was an odd I just graded your first exams and I think y'all gonna need Jesus to pass to class day.

 

[medickdb]

That's unique. Did they also get to skip gen bio when signing up for micro? Seems like as a whole nonsensical.

A lot of nursing programs have A&P courses that are separate from the A&P courses that science majors take. Obviously, this isn't true everywhere. However, at my undergraduate institution and at the community college where I taught, this was the case.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

That's unique. Did they also get to skip gen bio when signing up for micro? Seems like as a whole nonsensical.

I was not a bio major and most people who are trying to go to nursing school are nursing major. I also took micro without taking gen bio... I took gen bio I & II when I decided to take the prereqs for med school. I did not even have to take them because AACOMAS uses A&P I/II to fulfill the 8-credit bio requirement. Time and money wasted on my part though.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

That's unique. Did they also get to skip gen bio when signing up for micro? Seems like as a whole nonsensical.

I must say that when I was helping my friend who took A&P I at my state school last year, I saw his prof taught the central dogma. But when I took A&P years ago, my prod did not even talk about it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

A lot of nursing programs have A&P courses that are separate from the A&P courses that science majors take. Obviously, this isn't true everywhere. However, at my undergraduate institution and at the community college where I taught, this was the case.

My university doesn't have A&P for bio majors. Nor does any of the public schools in my state. So essentially it's a class that nurses, pre-pt, pre-med, everyone who has passed bio 1 takes ( at least at my school it's a popular course for getting a B.A to become a B.S in Anthro & Psych).

I must say I was not a bio major and most people who are trying to go to nursing school are nursing major. I also took micro without taking gen bio... I took gen bio I & II when I decided to take the prereqs for med school. I did not even have to take them because AACOMAS uses A&P I/II to fulfill the 8-credit bio requirement. Time and money wasted on my part though.

I was a bio major either ( Albeit I ended up really enjoying the subject and had I gone to another school would have double majored in a heart beat... well.. triple majored... gotta add on that dreamy classics major).
But anywho, idk, for me the idea of taking A&P or Micro without having a grasp of bio 1 is kinda weird. The courses build off each other and the professors assume you know bio enough to follow the lectures on microbial genetics, physiology, etc or the relationship between cellular function and physiological function. I know had I not taken bio 1 or ap bio ( I did both) I'd have probably found micro & a&p a lot more daunting ( and worse I probably wouldn't have enjoyed them so much).

 

[BestDoctorEver]

My university doesn't have A&P for bio majors. Nor does any of the public schools in my state. So essentially it's a class that nurses, pre-pt, pre-med, everyone who has passed bio 1 takes ( at least at my school it's a popular course for getting a B.A to become a B.S in Anthro & Psych).



I was a bio major either ( Albeit I ended up really enjoying the subject and had I gone to another school would have double majored in a heart beat... well.. triple majored... gotta add on that dreamy classics major).
But anywho, idk, for me the idea of taking A&P or Micro without having a grasp of bio 1 is kinda weird. The courses build off each other and the professors assume you know bio enough to follow the lectures on microbial genetics, physiology, etc or the relationship between cellular function and physiological function. I know had I not taken bio 1 or ap bio ( I did both) I'd have probably found micro & a&p a lot more daunting ( and worse I probably wouldn't have enjoyed them so much).

I understand why some people might have problem with NPs... Few classmates of mine who become NP went on to become NP and never taken intro to bio, gen chem, organic chem etc... And they are able to do their job as NP without problems. Tell them about the central dogma of bio now and they probably wont know what it is.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I understand why some people might have problem with NPs... Few classmates of mine who become NP went on to become NP and never taken intro to bio, gen chem, organic chem etc... And they are able to do their job as NP without problems. Tell them about the central dogma of bio now and they probably wont know what it is.

Dude, ask me how to derive a function beyond 2x^2 and I won't be able to anymore.
Admittedly there's a lot of stuff in the curriculum that is unnecessary for a person's function. I would say that general biology probably is relevant enough to a person going into any field dealing with living things. General chemistry? Useful.
Organic chemistry? Tbh, I loved orgo and I loved how it was a stimulating subject that to me was easy to grasp because everything followed a set of rules, isn't useful for just about anyone, it's not even all that useful in biochem.

And don't even get me started on physics. The class has no reason being a requirement for anything other than a historical science foundation.

 

[medickdb]

Dude, ask me how to derive a function beyond 2x^2 and I won't be able to anymore.
Admittedly there's a lot of stuff in the curriculum that is unnecessary for a person's function. I would say that general biology probably is relevant enough to a person going into any field dealing with living things. General chemistry? Useful.
Organic chemistry? Tbh, I loved orgo and I loved how it was a stimulating subject that to me was easy to grasp because everything followed a set of rules, isn't useful for just about anyone, it's not even all that useful in biochem.

And don't even get me started on physics. The class has no reason being a requirement for anything other than a historical science foundation.

I agree with bio, gen chem, and orgo. I also agree with physics except for the fact that some of it is actually useful, especially regarding the concepts of volume, pressure, force, resistance, and the like. I reason the way it's taught is the problem. The curriculum doesn't speak to the life sciences until you are expected to use the concepts during the MCAT. There are many physiological processes that require a basic understanding of physics.

 

[TXKnight]

Dude, ask me how to derive a function beyond 2x^2 and I won't be able to anymore.
Admittedly there's a lot of stuff in the curriculum that is unnecessary for a person's function. I would say that general biology probably is relevant enough to a person going into any field dealing with living things. General chemistry? Useful.
Organic chemistry? Tbh, I loved orgo and I loved how it was a stimulating subject that to me was easy to grasp because everything followed a set of rules, isn't useful for just about anyone, it's not even all that useful in biochem.

And don't even get me started on physics. The class has no reason being a requirement for anything other than a historical science foundation.

Don't mess with physics man...I'll give you that mechanics is not that useful, but imo EM and atomic stuff is......

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with bio, gen chem, and orgo. I also agree with physics except for the fact that some of it is actually useful, especially regarding the concepts of volume, pressure, force, resistance, and the like. I reason the way it's taught is the problem. The curriculum doesn't speak to the life sciences until you are expected to use the concepts during the MCAT. There are many physiological processes that require a basic understanding of physics.

It goes into tube, the tube gets smaller, the tube's pressure and speed go up. As opposed to calculate the speed of the fluid in the tube if the pressure is 2 and the width 3.

Idk, physics conceptually bores me. Math usually isn't my strong point, but without a cool conceptual foundation like what chemistry has it all goes out the other ear.

 

[medickdb]

It goes into tube, the tube gets smaller, the tube's pressure and speed go up. As opposed to calculate the speed of the fluid in the tube if the pressure is 2 and the width 3.

Idk, physics conceptually bores me. Math usually isn't my strong point, but without a cool conceptual foundation like what chemistry has it all goes out the other ear.

Like I said, the way it's presented in the courses we are required to take is stupid. It's not presented in a way that's made relevant to the life sciences unlike a course such as general chemistry.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Like I said, the way it's presented in the courses we are required to take is stupid. It's not presented in a way that's made relevant to the life sciences unlike a course such as general chemistry.

Pretty much. It's probably one of the most miserable classes for physics professors to teach as well probably.

 

[Isha2018]

I worked full-time in healthcare and still studied and did relatively well on the mcat. They can too.

Edited due to my further enlightenment at the hands of fellow SDNers.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I'm pretty jaded with my pre-req and Biochem experience. All these courses at my school were presented to you as if you were gonna go get a PhD and work in a lab. They had no medical relevance.

I understand schools have budgets and a limited number of professors. But in a perfect world I would honestly divide General Biology for PhD candidates and General Biology for people wanting to go to medical school and allow the MCAT to reflect a stronger medical perspective.

If The Biology major would connect general concepts with real-life diseases and medical elements it would've convinced me not to change majors as I ultimately did. Too much lab emphasis turned me off.

 

[medickdb]

Agreed. Especially since they still need to meet the english, math, physics, organic chem, bio, gen chem, and behavioral science prerequisites of DO schools. They should have the necessary background for taking the MCAT.

I didn't get a free pass for being a nurse, and the MCAT was no fun.

No disrespect, but being a nurse is not the same as being a PA. You can't compare the two.

 

[Isha2018]

Actually, I don't mean to derail this thread, but this brings up another issue.

As nurse practitioner (NP) is being phased out for doctor of nursing practice (DNP), I'm afraid with the power the nursing union in this country these providers will one day try to obtain unlimited medical licensure. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

As a nurse, I can say with confidence that this is not going to happen thanks to the laws of the individual states and the even more powerful AMA. I also thank Heavenly Father that nursing unions are not powerful in Texas! It will always remain the right and perogative of the individual states to determine the practice rights of nurses. No nurse becomes a nurse to be equivalent with physicians in practice rights. In fact, that's laughable.

 

[Dharma]

Just about everything that went into my MCAT prep has helped me with jack squat in med school. It was a hoop to jump through. That's it. Even everything I learned in undergrad as a bio major, helped me minimally so far in med school (and I'm doing pretty well approaching boards in a few months). Anything you need to learn at this stage in the game, you learn… AT THIS STAGE in the game. Hoops and hurdles. Yeah, they're necessary as a filter to see if you can hang, but other than that, most of the premed courses are seriously overrated. And so is the MCAT.

All of that said, PA school is a beast. Those dudes (and dudettes) can handle the heat. That PA hurdle holds a lot more than value than a standardize exam you will barely remember in a couple of years...

 

[Isha2018]

No disrespect, but being a nurse is not the same as being a PA. You can't compare the two.

I completely agree that PA's and RN's are not equivalent. I am only stating I believe in a STANDARD. Due to further enlightenment at the hands of fellow SDNers, I realize that competent and experienced PA's applying to LECOM constitute a worthy exception to traditional standards.

 

[medickdb]

I'm pretty jaded with my pre-req and Biochem experience. All these courses at my school were presented to you as if you were gonna go get a PhD and work in a lab. They had no medical relevance.

I understand schools have budgets and a limited number of professors. But in a perfect world I would honestly divide General Biology for PhD candidates and General Biology for people wanting to go to medical school and allow the MCAT to reflect a stronger medical perspective.

If The Biology major would connect general concepts with real-life diseases and medical elements it would've convinced me not to change majors as I ultimately did. Too much lab emphasis turned me off.

I agree. Call me crazy, but I actually hated most of my science classes for this reason. I didn't understand the point to a lot of the things I was learning until I was able to apply the concepts when I worked towards getting my paramedic certification.

For example, relate pressure, resistance, volume, etc. to the cardiovascular system, not an electrical circuit. No, I don't care about the life cycle of a fern. Relate chemical gradient to the cell, not a couple of beakers with ions. It was sure frustrating.

 

[Isha2018]

Honestly, not to sound like a douche or an elitism, but the populations applying to nursing, pa, and medicine are not the same and vastly different. The caliber of nursing students I've met is largely unimpressive save for a few who went far beyond the normal requirements. It's not exactly the curriculum that troubles me, it's the fact that most nurses probably couldn't cut it. I mean in my A&P class my professor actually stopped the class and had to give a lecture on central dogma of biology and proteins because the majority of the class didn't get it.

PAs in my opinion know their stuff and having worked with one, I'm pretty sure they're capable of becoming doctors.

The best RN's go on to become DO's, right? 🙂

I am excited to leave nursing after 8 years, but I really do think too many premedical students bash nursing WAY too much!!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm pretty jaded with my pre-req and Biochem experience. All these courses at my school were presented to you as if you were gonna go get a PhD and work in a lab. They had no medical relevance.

I understand schools have budgets and a limited number of professors. But in a perfect world I would honestly divide General Biology for PhD candidates and General Biology for people wanting to go to medical school and allow the MCAT to reflect a stronger medical perspective.

If The Biology major would connect general concepts with real-life diseases and medical elements it would've convinced me not to change majors as I ultimately did. Too much lab emphasis turned me off.

Thankfully none of my courses were presented like that with the exception of an animal learning & behavior course which was pure experiments and how to train animals to pull a lever. I had never wanted to graduate stronger than when I was taking that course.
I mean my professors never tried to make it medical, but they never made it into how to be a scientist101.

 

[Dharma]

All these courses at my school were presented to you as if you were gonna go get a PhD and work in a lab. They had no medical relevance.

Heads up dude… same thing in med school. What you said right there is a common complaint amongst many. Plenty of professors will drag you down this road leaving you scratching your head.

 

[medickdb]

As a nurse, I can say with confidence that this is not going to happen thanks to the laws of the individual states and the even more powerful AMA. I also thank Heavenly Father that nursing unions are not powerful in Texas! It will always remain the right and perogative of the individual states to determine the practice rights of nurses. No nurse becomes a nurse to be equivalent with physicians in practice rights. In fact, that's laughable.

That's good to know.

Don't get me wrong. I've met many great NPs, nurse anesthetists, and DNP candidates. However, if they wish to be physicians, there's a route for that.

The notion was just scary because I know a determined few who would argue otherwise.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The best RN's go on to become DO's, right? 🙂

I am excited to leave nursing after 8 years, but I really do think too many premedical students bash nursing WAY too much!!

You will get to see them in MS3/MS4

 

[Isha2018]

That's good to know.

Don't get me wrong. I've met many great NPs, nurse anesthetists, and DNP candidates. However, if they wish to be physicians, there's a route for that.

The notion was just scary because I know a determined few who would argue otherwise.

That would be scary. I wouldn't put it past California or New York to allow nurses insane practice privileges because the nursing unions are Uber-Powerful in those states.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Heads up dude… same thing in med school. What you said right there is a common complaint amongst many. Plenty of professors will drag you down this road leaving you scratching your head.

Don't tell me that 🙁

can you give me examples?

 

[medickdb]

The best RN's go on to become DO's, right? 🙂

I am excited to leave nursing after 8 years, but I really do think too many premedical students bash nursing WAY too much!!

I know it may not seem like it, but I love nurses. I've worked with plenty over the years. In fact, one wrote me a great letter of recommendation. Another nurse did a mock interview for me. Still more nurses taught me throughout my paramedic curriculum. But, just as in any role, there are the bad apples.

Edit: I also think they do make some of the best physicians. They have a perspective that most doctors never see. Someone would probably argue with me on that point, but I think it's a very valuable perspective they have to offer if they choose to go to medical school.

 

[Isha2018]

I know it may not seem like it, but I love nurses. I've worked with plenty over the years. In fact, one wrote me a great letter of recommendation. Another nurse did a mock interview for me. Still more nurses taught me throughout my paramedic curriculum. But, just as in any role, there are the bad apples.

Very true. I've worked with some awful nurses who sit on their butts all shift long. One of the main reasons I'm leaving nursing is because I just don't know enough as a nurse. One of the reasons I want to be a physician is so that I can competently affect positive changes in health for a greater number of people. I feel so limited as a nurse. I'm excited for med school to start in 6 months!

I'd imagine PA's who want to become physicians feel like they are hampered, too.

 

[medickdb]

Very true. I've worked with some awful nurses who sit on their butts all shift long. One of the main reasons I'm leaving nursing is because I just don't know enough as a nurse. One of the reasons I want to be a physician is so that I can competently affect positive changes in health for a greater number of people. I feel so limited as a nurse. I'm excited for med school to start in 6 months!

I'd imagine PA's who want to become physicians feel like they are hampered, too.

That's really great. I wish you the best.

Isn't it funny how powerful a motivator it is having coworkers who sit on their butts all day? Those people are always the biggest complainers, too.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Very true. I've worked with some awful nurses who sit on their butts all shift long. One of the main reasons I'm leaving nursing is because I just don't know enough as a nurse. One of the reasons I want to be a physician is so that I can competently affect positive changes in health for a greater number of people. I feel so limited as a nurse. I'm excited for med school to start in 6 months!

I'd imagine PA's who want to become physicians feel like they are hampered, too.

When I volunteered at a hospital, 50% of the nurses in the ICU were jerks towards me and if I dared ask a question or inquire about something, they would never hesitate to make me feel like unwanted dirt who was just in the way of things. I remember one time I said to one nurse:

Me: "Excuse me, but John Smith is shouting to speak to a nurse. "

Nurse: "ummm and? what's your point? he's always shouting."

Me: "ok...can you please help me see who's in charge of him?"

Nurse: "ugh...just go find out elsewhere." (she's walking away with her head turned elsewhere as she tells me this).

Some nurses are just outta control--makes me wonder why they are even doing this job lol

On the other hand, there were like 3 super nice nurses that I adored. One even came to me and told me how she felt bad that patients just don't respect them at times, and she felt the nurse staff is under-appreciated. I completely understand and respect your decision to be a physician. I know it was hard to spend all that time feeling less-knowledgeable and limited. As much as I respect all the good nurses out there, I know as a doctor, you'll be more appreciated, respected, and will have a bigger impact on the patient experience. Welcome to the medical school team 🙂

 

[Isha2018]

When I volunteered at a hospital, 50% of the nurses in the ICU were jerks towards me and if I dared ask a question or inquire about something, they would never hesitate to make me feel like unwanted dirt who was just in the way of things. Some nurses are just outta control--makes me wonder why they are even doing this job lol

On the other hand, there were like 3 super nice nurses that I adored. One even came to me and told me how she felt bad that patients just don't respect them at times, and she felt the nurse staff is under-appreciated. I completely understand and respect your decision to be a physician. I know it was hard to spend all that time feeling less-knowledgeable and limited. As much as I respect all the good nurses out there, I know as a doctor, you'll be more appreciated, respected, and will have a bigger impact on the patient experience. Welcome to the medical school team 🙂

Thanks! I'm excited to start!

ICU nurses can be mean. It's interesting how there is a pecking order in every profession. ICU nurses tend to feel at the top of the pecking order in floor nursing. As a PACU nurse, I routinely recover complex ICU patients and hold them for hours as we wait for rooms to open up. However, some ICU nurses look down on us lowly 'airway and pain control' nurses, even though we are trained very similarly.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. After more reflection, I really think PA's with the proper prerequisites shouldn't have to take the MCAT, especially since they have real-world medical experience, will receive advanced standing at LECOM, and because many current medical students do not feel the MCAT prepared them at all for their basic science courses. Wow! Thoroughly reading the posts on this thread actually changed my opinion! Thanks, SDN. 🙂

 

[Mad Jack]

The only problem with that is the NP curriculum is designed around the nursing model, not the medical model. Is there much of a difference? I'm not entirely sure. There are a lot of differing opinions on the matter.

There is a huge difference. Hell, NPs only have 500 required hours of advanced clinical training over the entire course of their degree. That's ridiculous, a resident knocks out that many hours in 7-8 weeks. Most of the degree is management and the BS that is "nursing theory." They claim that their years of nursing training substitute for the lack of advanced clinical training. But they were not operating at an advanced level, so it really doesn't substitute for anything in my mind. It's like saying you can be the general manager of a Wal-Mart after 8 weeks of training because you totally know how everything works because you were a cashier for three years first.

At least PAs receive legit preclinical foundation years that aren't about touchy feely theory BS and are just straight up science, followed by a minimum of 2000 hours of clinical training at the advanced level. APRN education is garbage, aside from CRNA and neonatal. General family medicine and adult acute care APRN training is an embarrassment, and should have substantially increased clinical training requirements.

I am all for APRNs having a place in the system, but they should have to earn it via an education that is significantly more substantial than what they currently receive. BSNs are well trained for their jobs, but a lot of APRNs, especially the ones that went right into grad school after receiving their BSN, are downright scary.