PAs can now become DOs without taking an MCAT

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Wait, you're a woman? Makes sense.

The link below, click it.









answer: try again

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[BestDoctorEver]

I don't think. The only program that has ever really considered something similar is the NOVA with it's Podiatrist to DO program. Which admittedly probably gets between 1 to 10 applicants a year.

That one is even worse than PA to DO transition! Why would a podiatrist who accumulated 200k+ in debt (7 years training) and have a good career making 150k+/year would consider a program like this just to become a PCP is most cases.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've been vacillating on my thoughts on this this but right now I am thinking that I would rather have more DOs and less PAs than having more PAs and fewer DOs. I think this would shrink the influence and power of PAs and hopefully as a result the DNPs too. not to mention, more DOs means more acceptance and public awareness of DOs. plus, it's not like the PAs are automatically converting their degree to DO. they have to still earn it by going through the rigors of a medical school (albeit at a slightly faster pace) on top of the 2 years of PA school

Plus they only take 24 of them per year. It isn't like every PA can just show up and do this, it's very selective and takes a small number of candidates.

 

[Makati2008]

90k 40 hours a week, no paper work, no malpractice, no overhead, etc at 25 v.s 180 55-60 hours a week, tons of paper work, malpractice, overhead at 30.

Overall, PAs have a great deal.

So what do I call someone who makes 100k and decides to spend 200k and 6-7 years of their life to retrain? An idiot.

Thanks for the insult but until you are hollered at due to just being a PA when trying to do emergent transfers, see colleagues lose their job because a group goes physicians only, or working for less than half of what your attending does then please refrain from the name calling.

 

[Back 5]

I wouldn't. If I were 30, had kids, had a PA-C I would rather gut myself than go back to school for 6+ years just so I can do what I've already been doing, uproot my entire life and those around me, and put my income on hold for 3-6 years ( residency is still far less money than what they're earning). Honestly, it's not happening. You guys are simply thinking this through the mindset of a 20 year old bachelor who can easily uproot themselves. But PAs are mostly already an older group of people. It's simply not an option for most of them even if they wanted it.

Hell, even now as someone who's in a serious relationship I have trouble moving around the country and picking medical schools that I can attend that can also provide job opportunities for my bf. It's simply far too hard.

I'm 33 with a DC degree, going back to school looking at upwards of 10+years if I factor in surgery + fellowship (who knows, just guestimating the longest road). It's all about satisfaction with what you are doing in life. I am not content as a DC and I am willing to sacrifice years of my life and income earning potential to chase it. I am not getting any advanced standing and I had to jump through the same hoops every 20 year old did. I believe PA-C's should as well.

 

[Makati2008]

I'm 33 with a DC degree, going back to school looking at upwards of 10+years if I factor in surgery + fellowship (who knows, just guestimating the longest road). It's all about satisfaction with what you are doing in life. I am not content as a DC and I am willing to sacrifice years of my life and income earning potential to chase it. I am not getting any advanced standing and I had to jump through the same hoops every 20 year old did. I believe PA-C's should ..

Let me ask, are chiropractor schools taught at least at the level of PA school(what I mean brief overviews over the organ systems, in-depth pharm, etc) I'm truly wondering because I don't know?

If your education is equal to that of a PA as well as standardized then I would take that up with my profession if I were you and not with PAs.

 

[Back 5]

I don't want advanced standing. I knew going into this that I would start from square one. It's my job to be a student now, not attempt to bring in outside knowledge

 

[MDforMee]

Actually, I don't mean to derail this thread, but this brings up another issue.

As nurse practitioner (NP) is being phased out for doctor of nursing practice (DNP), I'm afraid with the power the nursing union in this country these providers will one day try to obtain unlimited medical licensure. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

What you're getting at, I think, is that like PAs, nurses without advanced science courses (and the MCAT) are being elevated past mid-level practice to just about primary care doctor status, and that they're outbidding physicians for the low hanging fruit (basic ambulatory care stuff that racks up $).

I don't know about you, but my low hanging fruit is staying where it is.

 

[Donkk]

I wouldn't. If I were 30, had kids, had a PA-C I would rather gut myself than go back to school for 6+ years just so I can do what I've already been doing, uproot my entire life and those around me, and put my income on hold for 3-6 years ( residency is still far less money than what they're earning). Honestly, it's not happening. You guys are simply thinking this through the mindset of a 20 year old bachelor who can easily uproot themselves. But PAs are mostly already an older group of people. It's simply not an option for most of them even if they wanted it.

Hell, even now as someone who's in a serious relationship I have trouble moving around the country and picking medical schools that I can attend that can also provide job opportunities for my bf. It's simply far too hard.

Not disagreeing with you just a different perspective. Some of us young 30's people were making substantial incomes prior to returning to school. When I was in my 20's and entering the workforce after the army, I did not appreciate the value of acquiring a job I was passionate about. I chased money and material items and in the end I could not find happiness. I knew deep down what I wanted to do, but you are correct, adult responsibilities can cloud judgement and kill dreams. I would gladly spend years in school/training and racking up debt (hell even live in a studio and drive an AMC Gremlin if I have to) to become a doctor and help people through medicine. I understand many PA's are in the age range I am in and if they feel being a doctor is for them, they surely have been around medicine long enough to know they are prepared and I am all for it. I have met some amazing PA's, NP's and DNP's that I would think would be quite successful in medical school given the chance. However, I have met a few that are trash as well, so I think the MCAT should stay in play and perhaps analyze their profession exams and work evals, if they are going to take spots from people that played the game.

I think the DO I shadow said the podiatrists at Western sat in the lectures and took the same tests when they were there, so I am sure they would know if they were qualified through past exams. Not sure if NOVA has the same set up or not.

 

[Back 5]

Are you working as a chiro right now?

Yes, until May when I move.

 

[medickdb]

What you're getting at, I think, is that like PAs, nurses without advanced science courses (and the MCAT) are being elevated past mid-level practice to just about primary care doctor status, and that they're outbidding physicians for the low hanging fruit (basic ambulatory care stuff that racks up $).

I don't know about you, but my low hanging fruit is staying where it is.

Yes, and without having to complete residencies among other things to get there.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

Frankly I'm surprised at the tone of this thread. I think any reasonable person can admit there has to be no correlation with future clinical acumen and the MCAT. And as others have pointed out PA's have had to take more clinically relevant exams to practice, as well as continuing medical education and practicing medicine alongside their attendings. PA school is very expensive and time consuming, the implication that they are somehow taking an easier route is absurd. As is the strawman argument used by the DC claiming PA's who were trained in the medical model should not be credited for their education because his education was not.

It doesn't seem necessary to say that an experienced PA would probably outperform their traditional medical student colleagues in clinical rotations and internship due to having functioned in those roles before.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Frankly I'm surprised at the tone of this thread. I think any reasonable person can admit there has to be no correlation with future clinical acumen and the MCAT. And as others have pointed out PA's have had to take more clinically relevant exams to practice, as well as continuing medical education and practicing medicine alongside their attendings. PA school is very expensive and time consuming, the implication that they are somehow taking an easier route is absurd. As is the strawman argument used by the DC claiming PA's who were trained in the medical model should not be credited for their education because his education was not.

It doesn't seem necessary to say that an experienced PA would probably outperform their traditional medical student colleagues in clinical rotations and internship due to having functioned in those roles before.

+1 I completely agree. This debate is clearly silly over the stupid MCAT that everyone knows it's a dumb test. I support PAs (not DNP!!) to get their MCAT requirement waived. They earned it.

Just remember these are extremely motivated individuals who are willing to rack up more debt (PA school + med) in order to pursue a leadership role in which they feel they can contribute best.

It is an admirable thing to do and I hope the medical community can welcome these goal-driven people.

I know of a PA who regretted her decision because she felt the lack of autonomy prevented her from treating her patients the way she felt they should--because her supervising physician called the shots and apparently he was a money-driven jerk.

So would you frown upon her for wanting to unleash her own autonomy to fulfill her drive and better serve her patients? Let's be practical here.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

+1 I completely agree. This debate is clearly silly over the stupid MCAT that everyone knows it's a dumb test. I support PAs (not DNP!!) to get their MCAT requirement waived. They earned it.

Just remember these are extremely motivated individuals who are willing to rack up more debt (PA school + med) in order to pursue a leadership role in which they feel they can contribute best.

It is an admirable thing to do and I hope the medical community can welcome these goal-driven people.

I know of a PA who regretted her decision because she felt the lack of autonomy prevented her from treating her patients the way she felt they should--because her supervising physician called the shots and apparently he was a money-driven jerk.

So would you frown upon her for wanting to unleash her own autonomy to fulfill her drive and better serve her patients? Let's be practical here.

Why supporting PA but not NP for an MCAT waiver?

 

[Acls85]

I think most can agree, PA education is completely different from NP Education. I work with primarily NPs. They cant answer the basic medical questions.

I agree with Dr. Zombie. I was accepted into LECOMs program without an MCAT. I was working on studying for my MCATs when this opportunity came up. The applicants are Very competitive

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Why supporting PA but not NP for an MCAT waiver?

PA curriculum is modeled on medical school. NP curriculum is not.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I think most can agree, PA education is completely different from NP Education. I work with primarily NPs. They cant answer the basic medical questions.

I agree with Dr. Zombie. I was accepted into LECOMs program without an MCAT. I was working on studying for my MCATs when this opportunity came up. The applicants are Very competitive

What do you mean by saying that they (NP) can't answer the basic medical questions?

 

[guylewis]

What do you mean by saying that they (NP) can't answer the basic medical questions?

it's definitely a hyperbolic statement. however I believe there is a facet of truth in it. NPs aren't as well equipped to make the big calls that doctors make since they don't have as much training and instruction in the medical sciences. the educational rigors that DOs and MDs (and to some extent PAs) have to go through is greater than what NPs have to do. No disrespect to nurses, they do a great service for medicine and the world definitely would stop going 'round if we didn't have them.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

it's definitely a hyperbolic statement. however I believe there is a facet of truth in it. NPs aren't as well equipped to make the big calls that doctors make since they don't have as much training and instruction in the medical sciences. the educational rigors that DOs and MDs (and to some extent PAs) have to go through is greater than what NPs have to do. No disrespect to nurses, they do a great service for medicine and the world definitely would stop going 'round if we didn't have them.

That is a HUGE hyperbole! I understand that NP lack basics science background, but they are almost indistinguishable with PA on what they know and what they can do IMO.

 

[guylewis]

That is a HUGE hyperbole! I understand that NP lack basics science background, but they are almost indistinguishable with PA on what they know and what they can do IMO.

maybe NPs and PAs are close to equal but PAs do have a more stringent standards for acceptance into PA school. but regardless, PAs and NPs are not on the same level as MDs and DOs. that's pretty much indisputable.................anticipating someone will dispute me

 

[BestDoctorEver]

maybe NPs and PAs are close to equal but PAs do have a more stringent standards for acceptance into PA school. but regardless, PAs and NPs are not on the same level as MDs and DOs. that's pretty much indisputable.................anticipating someone will dispute me

Do you know that there are about 5 PA programs that still award an AS degree?

 

[guylewis]

Do you know that there are about 5 PA programs that still award an AS degree?

I do....now

 

[Makati2008]

The PAs that graduate from these programs already have HCE as well as a bachelors(at least the ones I worked with in Cali)

 

[medickdb]

Do you know that there are about 5 PA programs that still award an AS degree?

I only know of the one in Miami. Where are the others?

I don't think many of those PAs graduating with an AS find good jobs though. I know most hospitals I've worked at required a Master's degree.

 

[cliquesh]

You do realize you are judging people solely on their degrees, right? Like when some MDs judge DOs.....

 

[medickdb]

To be fair, the MD/DO argument is far different from the PA/NP one. Degrees have to meet certain educational standards set forth by their respective accrediting agencies and licensing bodies. Those differences are not as apparent between medical schools.

MDs can judge DOs all day long, the fact is that DOs meet the standard just as well.

 

[Makati2008]

To be fair, the MD/DO argument is far different from the PA/NP one. Degrees have to meet certain educational standards set forth by their respective accrediting agencies and licensing bodies. Those differences are not as apparent between medical schools.

MDs can judge DOs all day long, the fact is that DOs meet the standard just as well.

I agree with you but I wish you would tell Vanderbilt and the other schools that don't think so highly of our profession....

 

[medickdb]

My biggest concern with the DNP is that the AACN will try and obtain unlimited medical licensure for those who hold the degree. For that to happen, it would have to try to circumvent residency requirements or, much more likely, compete with MDs and DOs in the match. Obviously, none of that is happening now, but what about 10-15 years down the road?

I, for one, would have loved to have gone on to obtain medical education without some of the physics and general chemistry classes I took, or taking the MCAT. In this case, it would all be circumvented.

Finally, what's to stop them at primary care?

Often, we have to judge people on their degrees. Would you want someone who has a limited understanding of science messing with your blood chemistry? A degree represents an expected knowledge base.

I've been a paramedic for years. Nationally, there have been three levels until recently: EMT, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. At one time or another, I have been at every one of those levels. There are many fantastic EMTs out there, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't taught much of the science behind what they are doing. Person not breathing? Bag him with supplemental oxygen! Once most people are done with an EMT course, they come out with a bunch of recipes to follow for the most part. Actually, the same holds true at the Intermediate level as well. That isn't to say that some don't go above and beyond in their understanding of things. However, it's at the paramedic level you're supposed to have a more in-depth understanding of the anatomy, physiology, and pathophysiology of certain disease processes. It's expected at that level, and the education and testing requirements at that level back up that expectation. Unfortunately, the sad truth is that there are many providers who don't care about any of that because at the end of the day they can follow a cookbook. That's why we call them cookbook medics, and I, like many others, believe EMS education needs to advance to include more science. The courses would be more difficult, but it would be to everyone's benefit. This strict 'cookbook' mentality is dangerous.

I know it seems like I'm off on a tangent, but I wanted to use this as an example. It's to demonstrate that lacking an understanding of the fundamental science behind the medicine can be dangerous. I've seen medics overtreat, mistreat, and undertreat. If one were to ask some of them why they did something a certain way, a few dance around an answer while others simply cite the cookbook. If you're going to practice medicine, you need a strong science foundation. Otherwise, you cannot even remotely answer the question of why you are doing something. And, I, for one, don't want someone touching me if he or she doesn't have a clue of the why.

 

[Mad Jack]

PA school is 3 years.

And lets be honest here. DO schools produce in majority primary care physicians. PAs already function under supervision as primary care physicians and command salaries that are largely comparable to family physicians. So, no, most PAs will not be partaking in this program.
And somehow I think PAs are taught enough for them be able to move forward at a faster rate.

Depends on the school, most around here are 24-28 months total.

Do you know that there are about 5 PA programs that still award an AS degree?

The only ones I know about that offer an A.S. require a bachelor's degree. The programs are the same length as a regular PA program, provide the same education, and have the same prerequisites, they just lead to a different degree. Red Rocks CC's PA program is university sponsored and offers a masters option, for instance, and is very well regarded and has better PANCE pass rates than many masters programs. Their grads are pretty well regarded in Colorado and have no trouble finding employment.

The PA to DO students do not skip any med school basic sciences, plus they do not have summers off. The end result is 36 months of training- they skip about 6 months of rotations to compensate for their two years of PA school and many years of clinical practice. This is not a very short shortcut, basically. I think what is really grinding all the premed's gears is that you're all pissed you had to take the MCAT and these guys don't. If you want to skip the MCAT, feel free to get into PA school (which is hard enough without HCE), then practice for a few years, then apply for the tiny number of seats, half of which force you into primary care by contract. We all know the MCAT is a BS test anyway- its just a hoop we all hated but jumped through because we had to and is really not all that predictive of med school performance compared to GPA etc.

 

[Mad Jack]

How do you feel about Mt. Sinai letting in people with no basic sciences and no MCAT? There is all this wailing and gnashing of teeth when a DO school lets in a few qualified PAs, but when Mt. Sinai lets in some guy with a B.A. in Classical Egyptian Basket Weaving no one says a word.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[DocWinter]

From my research, PA school is no less demanding than MD/DO training. It differs in length and doesn't have residency, but it is at least as "tough" as medical school for the 2-3 years.
What is the MCAT for? Primarily it is designed for premeds to prove an ability to transfer knowledge of difficult science courses and understand dense passages under pressure (timed) conditions. You go through PA school = you get a check in that category

 

[DoctorKrieger]

How do you feel about Mt. Sinai letting in people with no basic sciences and no MCAT? There is all this wailing and gnashing of teeth when a DO school lets in a few qualified PAs, but when Mt. Sinai lets in some guy with a B.A. in Classical Egyptian Basket Weaving no one says a word.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

A third of the students in that program have at least one parent who is a physician? That whole article just screams 'good ol' boy' system for parents who guilt little Johnny into going into medicine for legacy and job security when all he really cares about is baskets of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt.

 

[medickdb]

A third of the students in that program have at least one parent who is a physician? That whole article just screams 'good ol' boy' system for parents who guilt little Johnny into going into medicine for legacy and job security when all he really cares about is baskets of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt.

But... but... I'm an adult! Mommy and daddy don't tell me what to do anymore! Nope. It was all my decision.

I wish these people would have the self confidence to make their own decisions about their future lifelong careers.

It's scary they wish to make life changing decisions for others when they can't even do that for themselves in the least.

 

[Mad Jack]

A third of the students in that program have at least one parent who is a physician? That whole article just screams 'good ol' boy' system for parents who guilt little Johnny into going into medicine for legacy and job security when all he really cares about is baskets of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt.

Yeah, it totally looks like a pipeline for kids that suddenly realized their **** degrees won't support the lifestyle they've become accustomed to then panic attack and ask their mom and dad to swing a few favors and get them into med school, but without all that hard sciency work first.

 

[happypremed1]

I don't want advanced standing. I knew going into this that I would start from square one. It's my job to be a student now, not attempt to bring in outside knowledge

Are you still practicing?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How do you feel about Mt. Sinai letting in people with no basic sciences and no MCAT? There is all this wailing and gnashing of teeth when a DO school lets in a few qualified PAs, but when Mt. Sinai lets in some guy with a B.A. in Classical Egyptian Basket Weaving no one says a word.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Humed produces pretty solid physicians that seemingly are much more patient centered than the rest of their class I.e much more psych, family medicine, etc specialists.

 

[Mad Jack]

Humed produces pretty solid physicians that seemingly are much more patient centered than the rest of their class I.e much more psych, family medicine, etc specialists.

Well there you go, we don't need basic sciences or the MCAT after all, because it doesn't really matter and you can produce solid physicians without them.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, it totally looks like a pipeline for kids that suddenly realized their **** degrees won't support the lifestyle they've become accustomed to then panic attack and ask their mom and dad to swing a few favors and get them into med school, but without all that hard sciency work first.

I mean medical school admissions are hardly clean. But the fact that they survive med school and residency means a lot.
Idk, despite my opinion that a person going into medicine should be strong in science and love it, maybe it's not actually all that necessary.

Then again calling intro sciences hard sciences is laughable. I admittedly fail to see how some of them are really deterrents pending a person get in the right mindset.

 

[medickdb]

I mean medical school admissions are hardly clean. But the fact that they survive med school and residency means a lot.
Idk, despite my opinion that a person going into medicine should be strong in science and love it, maybe it's not actually all that necessary.

Then again calling intro sciences hard sciences is laughable. I admittedly fail to see how some of them are really deterrents pending a person get in the right mindset.

Many of the doctors I've spoken with have said that the introductory science courses are almost useless. A few more go on to say that the same is true of the MCAT. The purpose of both is to provide a standard by which medical schools can assess applicants.

In a lot of other countries, medical school starts right after high school. Additionally, it's unfortunate, but admission to medical school is generally more competitive here in the United States.

Personally, I think there should be a widely available bachelor's degree that has students learn medical science relative to preventative and primary care. There are a lot of people who want to go to medical school but for one reason or another do not. This degree can either allow the students to immediately serve the public through health education and wellness checks or serve as a great foundation for subsequent graduate medical education. They could operate under a physician's license much as PAs or EMS providers do. The whole idea of community paramedicine that is spreading around the country is great, but I reason that much more can be done.

 

[Mad Jack]

I mean medical school admissions are hardly clean. But the fact that they survive med school and residency means a lot.
Idk, despite my opinion that a person going into medicine should be strong in science and love it, maybe it's not actually all that necessary.

Then again calling intro sciences hard sciences is laughable. I admittedly fail to see how some of them are really deterrents pending a person get in the right mindset.

The "hard" in "hard sciences" doesn't mean difficult, it means pure. I would argue that they are difficult courses, insofar as most people taking them have not yet acquired a foundation of scientific thinking with which to succeed with ease. I believe this is the greatest advantage provided by the traditional premed curriculum, as the mindset and study habits required in the sciences are quite different than those of the humanities. PAs have adjusted to this sort of learning in the PA curriculum. My bet is humanities students in the Sinai program probably require additional tutoring and assistance to catch up with the other students, who understand things like reaction rates and how chemical bonds form, which you sort of need to know for first semester biochem. If a school wishes to provide these resources, that is their prerogative. But I firmly believe that if you took a humanities student with no sciences and no extra support and a traditional science curriculum premed, the latter will perform far better and is thus a better candidate overall. A PA and a traditional premed would likely have similar performance, I'd bet, but who knows for sure.

 

[Mad Jack]

Many of the doctors I've spoken with have said that the introductory science courses are almost useless. A few more go on to say that the same is true of the MCAT. The purpose of both is to provide a standard by which medical schools can assess applicants.

In a lot of other countries, medical school starts right after high school. Additionally, it's unfortunate, but admission to medical school is generally more competitive here in the United States.

Personally, I think there should be a widely available bachelor's degree that has students learn medical science relative to preventative and primary care. There are a lot of people who want to go to medical school but for one reason or another do not. This degree can either allow the student to immediately serve the public through health education and wellness checks or serve as a great foundation for subsequent graduate medical education. They could operate under a physician's license much as PAs or EMS providers do. The whole idea of community paramedicine that is spreading around the country is great, but I reason that much more can be done.

In countries where medical school begins after high school, it is a six year degree that has all of the traditional premed courses included in the first year, years two and three are virtually identical to US training, and then they have 3 less intense clinical years. Overall the training is basically the same as the US but they get to skip all the general education BS, because most countries think liberal arts education is garbage and a waste of time.

 

[medickdb]

In countries where medical school begins after high school, it is a six year degree that has all of the traditional premed courses included in the first year, years two and three are virtually identical to US training, and then they have 3 less intense clinical years. Overall the training is basically the same as the US but they get to skip all the general education BS, because most countries think liberal arts education is garbage and a waste of time.

I disagree with them on the notion that liberal arts courses are a waste of time. I almost disagree with the whole notion of the traditional route of medical admission. I think some sort of life experience should be expected before matriculation. It blows my mind to see people whose first interview in life is for medical school. Experience doesn't need to be medically related necessarily, simply people related.

 

[TXKnight]

I know a c

From my research, PA school is no less demanding than MD/DO training. It differs in length and doesn't have residency, but it is at least as "tough" as medical school for the 2-3 years.
What is the MCAT for? Primarily it is designed for premeds to prove an ability to transfer knowledge of difficult science courses and understand dense passages under pressure (timed) conditions. You go through PA school = you get a check in that category

I personally know a couple of PAs, also three of my good friends are in med school (ms2 to ms4) and a friend currently a cards fellow. The basic science classes of a PA are not all at the same level of MD/DO. Some of their classes are the same, but a lot others are not at the same level. I heard this from one of my PA friends (he's married to the ms4 student). In general it's safe to assume most PA programs are the same.

 

[Mad Jack]

I disagree with them on the notion that liberal arts courses are a waste of time. I almost disagree with the whole notion of the traditional route of medical admission. I think some sort of life experience should be expected before matriculation. It blows my mind to see people whose first interview in life is for medical school. Experience doesn't need to be medically related necessarily, simply people related.

While I'm a nontrad myself and I feel that life experience would greatly benefit a lot of applicants, I also don't think you need it to be a good doctor in the end, as proven by the majority of countries in the world that do not require undergraduate education prior to med school that turn out plenty of fine physicians. Liberal arts I honestly feel are a waste of time. I'm a big fan of the German model of education that has you train specifically for a profession and then transitions you to an apprenticeship afterward. It's more efficient, results in the taxpayer's educational investments being well spent, and results in far higher employment levels post graduation. If people want to read books and write essays for credit, they should do it as part of their continuing education, not as a general requirement.

 

[DocWinter]

The basic science classes of a PA are not all at the same level of MD/DO. Some of their classes are the same, but a lot others are not at the same level.

I said the program was as difficult. I'm sure the courses are not exactly the same.
My point stands, it's silly to make them jump a hoop that exists for them to prove something they just friggin did

 

[medickdb]

While I'm a nontrad myself and I feel that life experience would greatly benefit a lot of applicants, I also don't think you need it to be a good doctor in the end, as proven by the majority of countries in the world that do not require undergraduate education prior to med school that turn out plenty of fine physicians. Liberal arts I honestly feel are a waste of time. I'm a big fan of the German model of education that has you train specifically for a profession and then transitions you to an apprenticeship afterward. It's more efficient, results in the taxpayer's educational investments being well spent, and results in far higher employment levels post graduation. If people want to read books and write essays for credit, they should do it as part of their continuing education, not as a general requirement.

Good point. I wish this country had more apprenticeships during and after high school, and not only in medicine. This whole idea that everyone needs a college degree should end. I'm sure we all know a lot of people who don't even use their degrees. One of my best friends tried college only to go into HVAC eventually. He loves it. High school could have guided him like many others to this option sooner. It doesn't always work, but it's better than the current model of 'go to college or else'. European countries have us beat in this regard.

 

[Back 5]

Are you still practicing?

Yes.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I disagree with them on the notion that liberal arts courses are a waste of time. I almost disagree with the whole notion of the traditional route of medical admission. I think some sort of life experience should be expected before matriculation. It blows my mind to see people whose first interview in life is for medical school. Experience doesn't need to be medically related necessarily, simply people related.

I'm somewhat in agreement. Admittedly I'm not a non-trad, but I've had life experiences that validate my desire to go into medicine.
But in the end the whole process is asinine. It's a rat race and far too much can go wrong even when you do everything right.

 

[TXKnight]

I said the program was as difficult. I'm sure the courses are not exactly the same.
My point stands, it's silly to make them jump a hoop that exists for them to prove something they just friggin did

I hear you. i am myself ambivalent about this MCAT waiver thing. I understand they've proven to be able to manage the basic sciences at a professional level, and on the other hand it's like c'mmon, this is the Medical College Admission Test...most everyone has gone through it...its a requisite...sit down, hit the books and just take it.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You do realize you are judging people solely on their degrees, right? Like when some MDs judge DOs.....

Not judging people on their degrees. A poster was saying that the standard to get into PA schools is higher than NP and I want to make sure that he knows that they are a few PA schools that still award AS degree and bunch of them still award BS degree. I would be the first to say that the MCAT is a BS test and for the most part has no predictive value of how good of a physician that someone will be. I have been in healthcare for many years and I have met many foreign physicians and some Americans who went to the islands, and they are excellent physicians... I even gave an anecdote of my friend who went to AUA after getting 17 on the MCAT ( 3 attempts) and was able to get 218 on step1 (1 attempt). I know it is not a great score but it just show you how much of a BS test the MCAT is. I am glad LECOM waive that requirement for PA and I think more DO schools should have program like that for NP/PA.