PAs can now become DOs without taking an MCAT

[Mad Jack]

I agree with bio, gen chem, and orgo. I also agree with physics except for the fact that some of it is actually useful, especially regarding the concepts of volume, pressure, force, resistance, and the like. I reason the way it's taught is the problem. The curriculum doesn't speak to the life sciences until you are expected to use the concepts during the MCAT. There are many physiological processes that require a basic understanding of physics.

Actually understanding mechanical ventilation and hemodynamics without physics is pretty much impossible. Chemistry and orgo really make understanding biochem easier. Biochem, molecular med, and genetics are pretty much where the future of medicine is going. I really think they are good courses to have, especially if you plan on going into academics or research.

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[medickdb]

There is a huge difference. Hell, NPs only have 500 required hours of advanced clinical training over the entire course of their degree. That's ridiculous, a resident knocks out that many hours in 7-8 weeks. Most of the degree is management and the BS that is "nursing theory." They claim that their years of nursing training substitute for the lack of advanced clinical training. But they were not operating at an advanced level, so it really doesn't substitute for anything in my mind. It's like saying you can be the general manager of a Wal-Mart after 8 weeks of training because you totally know how everything works because you were a cashier for three years first.

At least PAs receive legit preclinical foundation years that aren't about touchy feely theory BS and are just straight up science, followed by a minimum of 2000 hours of clinical training at the advanced level. APRN education is garbage, aside from CRNA and neonatal. General family medicine and adult acute care APRN training is an embarrassment, and should have substantially increased clinical training requirements.

I am all for APRNs having a place in the system, but they should have to earn it via an education that is significantly more substantial than what they currently receive. BSNs are well trained for their jobs, but a lot of APRNs, especially the ones that went right into grad school after receiving their BSN, are downright scary.

That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Thanks! I'm excited to start!

ICU nurses can be mean. It's interesting how there is a pecking order in every profession. ICU nurses tend to feel at the top of the pecking order in floor nursing. As a PACU nurse, I routinely recover complex ICU patients and hold them for hours as we wait for rooms to open up. However, some ICU nurses look down on us lowly 'airway and pain control' nurses, even though we are trained very similarly.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. After more reflection, I really think PA's with the proper prerequisites shouldn't have to take the MCAT, especially since they have real-world medical experience, will receive advanced standing at LECOM, and because many current medical students do not feel the MCAT prepared them at all for their basic science courses. Wow! Thoroughly reading the posts on this thread actually changed my opinion! Thanks, SDN.

1. I'm dreading when I am an MS3/MS4 and I'll have nurses treating me like sht and I gotta swallow it because I'm just a lowly medical student and I know nothing and they know everything. It's like volunteering all over again.

2. The MCAT did nothing for me. I still feel the same before and after I took the exam. The only thing I do admit it did do, is help me get better at multiple choice questions and being able to critically analyze basic situations under time pressure which college exams did not help me do.

 

[Isha2018]

There is a huge difference. Hell, NPs only have 500 required hours of advanced clinical training over the entire course of their degree. That's ridiculous, a resident knocks out that many hours in 7-8 weeks. Most of the degree is management and the BS that is "nursing theory." They claim that their years of nursing training substitute for the lack of advanced clinical training. But they were not operating at an advanced level, so it really doesn't substitute for anything in my mind. It's like saying you can be the general manager of a Wal-Mart after 8 weeks of training because you totally know how everything works because you were a cashier for three years first.

At least PAs receive legit preclinical foundation years that aren't about touchy feely theory BS and are just straight up science, followed by a minimum of 2000 hours of clinical training at the advanced level. APRN education is garbage, aside from CRNA and neonatal. General family medicine and adult acute care APRN training is an embarrassment, and should have substantially increased clinical training requirements.

I am all for APRNs having a place in the system, but they should have to earn it via an education that is significantly more substantial than what they currently receive. BSNs are well trained for their jobs, but a lot of APRNs, especially the ones that went right into grad school after receiving their BSN, are downright scary.

For these reasons, nurses should never be considered equivalent, even at the DNP level, to physicians. Rest assured, they never will.

I posted in a different thread last year about the pseudoscience of nursing theory. What a joke! This is why my BSN classes did not count as science classes on TMDSAS or AACOMAS.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's unique. Did they also get to skip gen bio when signing up for micro? Seems like as a whole nonsensical.

I also took A&P without taking bio first. Then took micro because it required two semesters of bio, which A&P filled. Then proceeded to take Genetics and Immunology. The last two bio courses I ever took were my bio 1 and 2 for med school lol. Damn was it easy after everything I'd already done.

 

[Isha2018]

1. I'm dreading when I am an MS3/MS4 and I'll have nurses treating me like sht and I gotta swallow it because I'm just a lowly medical student and I know nothing and they know everything. It's like volunteering all over again.

2. The MCAT did nothing for me. I still feel the same before and after I took the exam. The only thing I do admit it did do, is help me get better at multiple choice questions and being able to critically analyze basic situations under time pressure which college exams did not help me do.

In the future, when I rotate in the hospital, I'm kind of afraid to tell the nurses that I was a nurse for 8 years (and still hold a current license)! I'm afraid they will treat me even worse than other medical students. Nurses really do eat their young, and like crabs in a bucket, they will hate me for being 'uppity.'

 

[medickdb]

1. I'm dreading when I am an MS3/MS4 and I'll have nurses treating me like sht and I gotta swallow it because I'm just a lowly medical student and I know nothing and they know everything. It's like volunteering all over again.

Just stroke their egos. Those nurses love a good ego stroke. Otherwise, they can make your time miserable whenever you have to deal with them.

 

[Isha2018]

Just stroke their egos. Those nurses love a good ego stroke. Otherwise, they can make your time miserable whenever you have to deal with them.

Just wait until you're a physician. As nurses, we are with the patients 95% of the time, so we can really make a doctor's life miserable. I've heard of nurses calling doctors in the middle of the night for piddily stuff just to tick him/her off.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

In the future, when I rotate in the hospital, I'm kind of afraid to tell the nurses that I was a nurse for 8 years (and still hold a current license)! I'm afraid they will treat me even worse than other medical students. Nurses really do eat their young, and like crabs in a bucket, they will hate me for being 'uppity.'

My dear colleague, whatever you do, keep your RN license a secret. If they find out, they will hate you for making them feel like they are lower than you (even though that's their own fault).

"Oh look at him, with his fancy white coat, he probably thinks he's better than us blah blah gossip gossip blah blah"

Just stroke their egos. Those nurses love a good ego stroke. Otherwise, they can make your time miserable whenever you have to deal with them.

I have the best "customer service" skills in the entire world. They won't even know what hit them LOL

 

[Mad Jack]

For these reasons, nurses should never be considered equivalent, even at the DNP level, to physicians. Rest assured, they never will.

I posted in a different thread last year about the pseduoscience of nursing theory. What a joke! This is why my BSN classes did not count as science classes on TMDSAS or AACOMAS.

It's totally insulting to your previous profession that they continue to fill nursing degrees with such fluff. Whole reason I went RT rather than RN was hearing all of my friends complain about what crap the nursing theory courses were. At least respiratory was just science, beginning to end, no filler, no fluff.

Oh, as to the previous comment about ICU nurses. I work with all of the different nurses in the hospital, from neo to the floors to the units. At my hospital I'd say the nurses I'd most trust with my life are the MICU, SICU, and rapid response nurses, followed by a tie between ED/PACU/CCU/NICU, followed by pretty much everybody else. They just use their skills more. They aren't better nurses or better trained per say. They tend to deal with the more unstable stuff on a regular basis and know how to handle it, and take serious pride in being one of only three places in the hospital that handles their own codes. Some of them get arrogant because of it, which combines with the often terrible burnout inherent in ICU work to create really awful coworkers that criticize everyone else they lay eyes on while simultaneously hating every minute they are on the clock. It's easy to forget we're all on the same team when they are so busy thinking they're awesome half the time and caught up being miserable the other half.

But most ICU nurses are nice. The bad ones are just so bad they kind of leave a stronger impression. (Respiratory also has its fair share of reputation wreckers out there...)

 

[Acls85]

I was a RN then a PA. Now i get to add OSM1 to my name. I never placed my RN title on my labcoat when i was a PA but i did let the nurses know. RN school didnt help at all for PA school...but the RN skills did come in handy when i was a PA working in the hospital. I understood how to write orders so they make "nursing sense" which decreased all the clarification pages. When a nurse would say, " my gut just tells me something is wrong", id reevalute the patient to make them feel better. More importantly, i understood nursing theory (yes a pseduoscience). When a nurse tried playing their nursing games or hide their mistakes (like they do with MSs and residents), id recheck their "nursing interventions" and call them out on things. One example of this was when i had a spiraling patient. The lazy nurse didnt wanna do frequent vital signs because my intern didnt rewrite the order. When she tried throwing the intern under the bus in front of the attending, i asked her, "what was your nursing diagnosis of the patient?". She couldnt answer and i told her what is was and that a "prudent" nurse would have increased the frequency of the vital signs based on the deterioration of the patient regardless of standing orders since the acuity of the patient had changed.

Understanding the nursing didactic is the way to protect yourself when you step on the ward..... plus i know how to throw in an IV on the fly (military experience)... they always get dumbstruck when a white coat can place an IV in the middle of the night when "everyone else failed"

 

[Mad Jack]

My dear colleague, whatever you do, keep your RN license a secret. If they find out, they will hate you for making them feel like they are lower than you (even though that's their own fault).

"Oh look at her with her fancy white coat, she probably thinks she's better than us blah blah gossip gossip blah blah"



I have the best "customer service" skills in the entire world. They won't even know what hit them LOL

You seem to have a lot of bad nurse experiences. Maybe it's just a location thing. Most nurses are pretty good in my book.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

When she tried throwing the intern under the bus in front of the attending, i asked her, "what was your nursing diagnosis of the patient?". She couldn't answer and i told her what it was and that a "prudent" nurse would have increased the frequency of the vital signs based on the deterioration of the patient regardless of standing orders since the acuity of the patient had changed.

Now THAT is what I call pimping. As Simon Cowell would say "Absolutely brilliant!" On the other hand, from that point on, you were her arch nemesis.

Now let me ask you for my own reference, if a patient acuity changes and they are spiraling and the nurse is not taking vital signs as often as she should---and tries to throw the intern under the bus for not rewriting orders, how should I, as an intern, defend myself?

 

[medickdb]

plus i know how to throw in an IV on the fly (military experience)... they always get dumbstruck when a white coat can place an IV in the middle of the night when "everyone else failed"

I can't wait for that.

 

[Isha2018]

I was a RN then a PA. Now i get to add OSM1 to my name. I never placed my RN title on my labcoat when i was a PA but i did let the nurses know. RN school didnt help at all for PA school...but the RN skills did come in handy when i was a PA working in the hospital. I understood how to write orders so they make "nursing sense" which decreased all the clarification pages. When a nurse would say, " my gut just tells me something is wrong", id reevalute the patient to make them feel better. More importantly, i understood nursing theory (yes a pseduoscience). When a nurse tried playing their nursing games or hide their mistakes (like they do with MSs and residents), id recheck their "nursing interventions" and call them out on things. One example of this was when i had a spiraling patient. The lazy nurse didnt wanna do frequent vital signs because my intern didnt rewrite the order. When she tried throwing the intern under the bus in front of the attending, i asked her, "what was your nursing diagnosis of the patient?". She couldnt answer and i told her what is was and that a "prudent" nurse would have increased the frequency of the vital signs based on the deterioration of the patient regardless of standing orders since the acuity of the patient had changed.

Understanding the nursing didactic is the way to protect yourself when you step on the ward..... plus i know how to throw in an IV on the fly (military experience)... they always get dumbstruck when a white coat can place an IV in the middle of the night when "everyone else failed"

Thanks. I haven't thought enough about how my nursing experience will allow me to make sure the nurses I'm working with are putting my patients first. Yes, IV's are fun to do!

 

[Isha2018]

My dear colleague, whatever you do, keep your RN license a secret. If they find out, they will hate you for making them feel like they are lower than you (even though that's their own fault).

"Oh look at her with her fancy white coat, she probably thinks she's better than us blah blah gossip gossip blah blah"

Thanks. I'm sure I'll only tell those I trust. BTW, I'm a male nurse

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Thanks. I'm sure I'll only tell those I trust. BTW, I'm a male nurse

oops. corrected my post. thanks for letting me know.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

What's all this talk about?

 

[SIGINT]

Yeah, that makes 0 sense. I can see how an established PA who works 40-50+ hrs a week, and has been out of schooling/training for many years may not have the time/desire to take the MCAT. Heck, this type of PA, in my opinion, has earned a little leeway because he/she likely has experienced more and knows a lot more than an ordinary premed/MS1.

However, what would be really silly is if people decide to become PA's, and then instantly look to enroll into this program simply to avoid taking the MCAT. This would be particularly unfair to the rest of us, to say the least.

I have worked full-time in research and still found the time to write the MCAT. This just seems like a bad excuse.

 

[guylewis]

I have worked full-time in research and still found the time to write the MCAT. This just seems like a bad excuse.

wait wait wait...you write the MCAT? as in, you write the test questions?

 

[Mad Jack]

In the future, when I rotate in the hospital, I'm kind of afraid to tell the nurses that I was a nurse for 8 years (and still hold a current license)! I'm afraid they will treat me even worse than other medical students. Nurses really do eat their young, and like crabs in a bucket, they will hate me for being 'uppity.'

Dat crab pot mentality.

 

[Ximedus]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

wait wait wait...you write the MCAT? as in, you write the test questions?

Yeah, he's an exceptional guy like that. If he'd only been applying himself fully to his research, he probably could've cured cancer right out, but you know, writing the MCAT is a tough job, and somebody's got to do it.

 

[Ximedus]

I have worked full-time in research and still found the time to write the MCAT. This just seems like a bad excuse.

AND???? I don't understand how you can compare yourself to PAs?????? Did you take a range of medical school classes? Did you go through clinical rotations? Did you pass a national exam to be a certified mid-level practitioner who was trained on the medical school model???

Why should PAs need to take the MCAT after they already proved themselves? Their PA school performance and letter of recommendations from physicians they ACTUALLY worked under (not shadowed like a typical premed) should outweigh any value that a score on Physics passages could give.

Did you know a lot of community colleges accept students who didn't take the SAT and those students move on to 4-year colleges still without the SAT?? How would you feel if your medical school application required you to go back and take the SAT despite having a 3.6 cGPA with a 3.5 science GPA with a 30 MCAT? Do you think that's logical and practical?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

AND???? I don't understand how you can compare yourself to PAs?????? Did you take a range of medical school classes? Did you go through clinical rotations? Did you pass a national exam to be a certified mid-level practitioner who was trained on the medical school model???

Why should PAs need to take the MCAT after they already proved themselves? Their PA school performance and letter of recommendations from physicians they ACTUALLY worked under (not shadowed like a typical premed) should outweigh any value that a score on Physics passages could give.

Did you know a lot of community colleges accept students who didn't take the SAT and those students move on to 4-year colleges still without the SAT?? How would you feel if your medical school application required you to go back and take the SAT despite having a 3.6 cGPA with a 3.5 science GPA with a 30 MCAT? Do you think that's logical and practical?

I think this is a wonderful summery of the situation.

 

[SIGINT]

AND???? I don't understand how you can compare yourself to PAs?????? Did you take a range of medical school classes? Did you go through clinical rotations? Did you pass a national exam to be a certified mid-level practitioner who was trained on the medical school model???

Why should PAs need to take the MCAT after they already proved themselves? Their PA school performance and letter of recommendations from physicians they ACTUALLY worked under (not shadowed like a typical premed) should outweigh any value that a score on Physics passages could give.

Did you know a lot of community colleges accept students who didn't take the SAT and those students move on to 4-year colleges still without the SAT?? How would you feel if your medical school application required you to go back and take the SAT despite having a 3.6 cGPA with a 3.5 science GPA with a 30 MCAT? Do you think that's logical and practical?

You’re right, I can’t compare myself to a PA. That is exactly the problem that admission committees would have if they don’t have a standardized measure of comparing students from different populations. Without the MCAT, the only thing common between a premed and a PA student is their undergraduate GPA. Do you think that would be a better way to compare them? Or do you think that PA students should just automatically get an advantage because they have already gone through a professional program?

 

[medickdb]

You’re right, I can’t compare myself to a PA. That is exactly the problem that admission committees would have if they don’t have a standardized measure of comparing students from different populations. Without the MCAT, the only thing common between a premed and a PA student is their undergraduate GPA. Do you think that would be a better way to compare them? Or do you think that PA students should just automatically get an advantage because they have already gone through a professional program?

I'm totally ignorant on this. Do most individuals who complete SMP programs, specifically the programs where they basically take the same courses as the medical students, do they have to take the MCAT in order to matriculate?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You’re right, I can’t compare myself to a PA. That is exactly the problem that admission committees would have if they don’t have a standardized measure of comparing students from different populations. Without the MCAT, the only thing common between a premed and a PA student is their undergraduate GPA. Do you think that would be a better way to compare them? Or do you think that PA students should just automatically get an advantage because they have already gone through a professional program?

I am kind of ambivalent about that stuff because what would prevent another professional program or profession to ask for the same treatment... Let says pharmacists who want to go to med school (DO) ask for the same treatment... Would that be fair? I don't know... In one hand, I feel like if they call it 'Medical School Admission Test' that means EVERYONE should take it before getting into med school... On the other hand, I don't think the MCAT is truly a good measurement tool on how good of a physician someone will be. Another misconception I see here is that people assume if someone went thru a PA program, they should be able to do fairly good in the mcat...That is not necessarily true. The MCAT is just a different test that measure a whole different set of skills and abilities.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm totally ignorant on this. Do most individuals who complete SMP programs, specifically the programs where they basically take the same courses as the medical students, do they have to take the MCAT in order to matriculate?

Yes. Usually if it is a linked program there is a lowish minimum MCAT to be granted an interview, while if they look elsewhere they obviously have to take the MCAT. The only ways out of the MCAT that I know of are this PA program, BS-MD programs, and the "holistic" admission programs that take humanities majors without requiring the MCAT. Oh, and some schools in the Carib, as well as most non-Carib schools abroad.

 

[medickdb]

I am kind of ambivalent about that stuff because what would prevent another professional program or profession to ask for the same treatment... Let says pharmacists who want to go to med school (DO) ask for the same treatment... Would that be fair? I don't know... In one hand, I feel like if they call it 'Medical School Admission Test' that means EVERYONE should take it before getting into med school... On the other hand, I don't think the MCAT is truly a good measurement tool on how good of a physician someone will be. Another misconception I see here is that people assume if someone went thru a PA program, they should be able to do fairly good in the mcat...That is not necessarily true. The MCAT is just a different test that measure a whole different set of skills and abilities.

The MCAT and "pre-med" courses exist as requirements purely because they are all relatively standard across the US and can provide reasonable measures with which to compare students. Think about how difficult the admissions process would be if no such measures were in place.

Most doctors I've spoken with have said that the MCAT and undergraduate courses are mostly useless for any other purpose. Look at foreign medical schools, some accept students right out of high school. Most of them produce fine physicians. Personally, I would argue that one should have some life experience (i.e. dealing with people in the real world, etc.) before pursuing medicine. But, that's another argument for a different day.

Looking back on everything now, I wish some of those "pre-med" courses were taught in a manner that was made more relevant to human biology. I don't care about the resistance in an electrical circuit rather teach me how resistance is important in blood flow. It's the same concept, but it makes more sense, at least to me, when applied to human physiology (Plus, it's more interesting.).

 

[primadonna22274]

I've been watching this discussion unfold on the sidelines, enjoying my popcorn (well fro-yo actually). Impressed that y'all have kept it civil and a few of your minds have been changed
I'm in the first graduating class of the LECOM-Erie Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway. It just hit me today that I have 4 mos left of med school...whoa, how did that happen?!
Pasting my reply to another thread started about the same time that didn't get as much attention as this one. In short, my underwhelming MCAT (yes, I did have to take it) had absolutely NO predictive value of my board scores, my success in preclinical sciences, my ability to relate to patients and precepting physicians, or my ability to nab some very nice residency interviews. Being a hardworking PA did all that--and a stubborn resolve to just keep swimming

Soooo...I had to take the MCAT. Not my best standardized exam showing ever. Took it almost-cold (dumb) 12 years after undergrad bio/chem and without physics. Got a 24. Definitely not impressive.
But also not in any way predictive of my USMLE step 1 (212, meh, I was sick as a dog when I took that exam) and COMLEX level 1 (583/88) and 2 (728/98) scores which were far better.
Btw I had to recert my PA (PANRE) in Sept of M2, my 12th year out from PA graduation. Scores went from pretty good (75th percentile) on initial PANCE to 99th percentile after a year and a few months of med school lol
I have no qualms about further PAs in my program skipping MCAT. It was nothing but a hurdle for me. That decade-plus of overemployment as a PA in FM and EM was far better prep for med school and residency.

 

[SIGINT]

I'm totally ignorant on this. Do most individuals who complete SMP programs, specifically the programs where they basically take the same courses as the medical students, do they have to take the MCAT in order to matriculate?

They do take the MCAT.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The MCAT and "pre-med" courses exist as requirements purely because they are all relatively standard across the US and can provide reasonable measures with which to compare students. Think about how difficult the admissions process would be if no such measures were in place.

Most doctors I've spoken with have said that the MCAT and undergraduate courses are mostly useless for any other purpose. Look at foreign medical schools, some accept students right out of high school. Most of them produce fine physicians. Personally, I would argue that one should have some life experience (i.e. dealing with people in the real world, etc.) before pursuing medicine. But, that's another argument for a different day.

Looking back on everything now, I wish some of those "pre-med" courses were taught in a manner that was made more relevant to human biology. I don't care about the resistance in an electrical circuit rather teach me how resistance is important in blood flow. It's the same concept, but it makes more sense, at least to me, when applied to human physiology (Plus, it's more interesting.).

I have never been a fan of the MCAT, but I guess it is there for a reason...

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

If you are "so far removed from basic science" that you can't score well enough on the MCAT to get into a Med School (and we all know D.O. Schools have lower averages as far as MCAT scores), then you are too far removed from basic science to enter medical school.

Sure the MCAT isn't the best assessment of how an individual will fair in medical school, but it does test the most basic science that one will need. Especially the new MCAT that will be rolling in soon with an emphasis on Genetics and BioChem.

 

[primadonna22274]

Disagree. I picked up the sciences again rather quickly in med school--16 yr after taking them. Sure, they were rusty for the MCAT but didn't hurt me that much with learning objectives and good teachers. As I said above, my underwhelming far-removed MCAT score is a total disconnect from my awesome board scores. Not buying it.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I think that once you take sciences, it stays engraved in your brain cells to some degree that when you revisit them many years later you're bound to pick it up easier since your brain can recall a level of familiarity.

 

[Makati2008]

Disagree. I picked up the sciences again rather quickly in med school--16 yr after taking them. Sure, they were rusty for the MCAT but didn't hurt me that much with learning objectives and good teachers. As I said above, my underwhelming far-removed MCAT score is a total disconnect from my awesome board scores. Not buying it.

Agreed. The MCAT is worthless predictor of med school success. By the logic here on sdn I should have failed out/ had worse grades then those kids with the 28+ mcats.

 

[sonofva]

dude there's DOs that got into medical school and did so poorly on the MCAT that they may have well not have taken it.

 

[Mx300]

PAs curriculum is similar to med school. If they got through that then I'm sure they can handle the first couple years of med school.. The mcat is crap, it's just a tool used to tier applicants. When in medicine am I gonna have to use the Doppler effect formula? And all the other physics formulas for that matter..

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I can't believe this thread is alive. Premeds are just hating on PAs because they have to go through the MCAT unlike PAs who earned an exemption from that useless test.

Closed thread please.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I haven't read the whole thread, so someone else may have said this... but:

What's the real issue with this? LECOM states that a 24+ is competitive at their school... and I would hope any of us going to medical school could get a 24 with our eyes closed. Considering a 24 isn't even the 40th percentile, I'm not surprised that LECOM would view a successful PA education as equally predictive of success as a 24 on the MCAT.

 

[NontradCA]

Thanks, Obama.

 

[Chillywilly]

I can't believe this thread is alive. Premeds are just hating on PAs because they have to go through the MCAT unlike PAs who earned an exemption from that useless test.

Closed thread please.

Regardless of not taking the Mcat, they still have to take the usmle/Comlex. There's plenty of med students who didn't take the Mcat either because they had some early assurance deal with their undergrad or high school or whatnot.

I'm not defending PAs I'm just sayin..they still need to do all the work of a med studnet

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Regardless of not taking the Mcat, they still have to take the usmle/Comlex. There's plenty of med students who didn't take the Mcat either because they had some early assurance deal with their undergrad or high school or whatnot.

I'm not defending PAs I'm just sayin..they still need to do all the work of a med studnet

I 100% agree with you with the board exams. But my comments are for those who feel that PAs should be forced to take the MCAT. Premeds are no where near the level of Physician assistants and therefore cannot be treated as equals.

 

[primadonna22274]

I haven't read the whole thread, so someone else may have said this... but:

What's the real issue with this? LECOM states that a 24+ is competitive at their school... and I would hope any of us going to medical school could get a 24 with our eyes closed. Considering a 24 isn't even the 40th percentile, I'm not surprised that LECOM would view a successful PA education as equally predictive of success as a 24 on the MCAT.

^^^that is the entire argument. So far it's holding up.

 

[KristenD77]

This is really late but I'm a biology major and I have to say I would rather do NP than PA and there are direct entry programs that allow that. Not saying anything bad towards PAs but NPS have an amazing lobbyist and they don't have to take an exam to renew their license. With that being said I think a lot of biology majors now a days move on to become nps instead

I understand why some people might have problem with NPs... Few classmates of mine who become NP went on to become NP and never taken intro to bio, gen chem, organic chem etc... And they are able to do their job as NP without problems. Tell them about the central dogma of bio now and they probably wont know what it is.

 

[primadonna22274]

^^NPs have better lobbyists and a better-sounding name. PAs have superior training and in many cases much better relationships with physicians.
Your choice.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

This is really late but I'm a biology major and I have to say I would rather do NP than PA and there are direct entry programs that allow that. Not saying anything bad towards PAs but NPS have an amazing lobbyist and they don't have to take an exam to renew their license. With that being said I think a lot of biology majors now a days move on to become nps instead

I understand that... From an autonomy standpoint, NP is a lot better than PA. However, if you look at these NP curricula, they are not heavy on science--they are more about nursing theory BS...

http://www.nova.edu/chcs/pa/fortlauderdale/timeline.html

http://www.nova.edu/nursing/fnp/coursedescriptions.html

 

[primadonna22274]

^^^Exactly. Barely 1/3 the clinical practicum hours for the NPs compared to the PAs and much less science...far, far less.
And this is not an unusual side-by-side comparison.
The traditional argument of "NPs don't need as many clinical hours because we have work experience as a nurse" doesn't hold water for direct entry NPs. Some of the scariest practitioners I've ever seen are DE NPs.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

^^^Exactly. Barely 1/3 the clinical practicum hours for the NPs compared to the PAs and much less science...far, far less.
And this is not an unusual side-by-side comparison.
The traditional argument of "NPs don't need as many clinical hours because we have work experience as a nurse" doesn't hold water for direct entry NPs. Some of the scariest practitioners I've ever seen are DE NPs.

Can you give us a story for entertainment purposes of a scary NP being scary