Pass/Fail, but secretly not really...?

[PL198]

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Their basic sciences are also P/F, so studying for Step 1 is not really a problem.

I hate every single medical school parody video, because none of them are ever funny and they're made for the sole purpose of acquiring validation. Truly, I just wish people would stop making those. They suck. I feel bad for the people that watch those and are like " ZOMG SO FUNNY VIDEO" when there's like 100 million things actually funny on the internet

 

[PL198]

I asked one of my big sibs not to long ago, "hey so I know our school is P/F, but is it true P/F? Like are they lying/do they secretly rank you first year?" He looked at me like I was crazy and said no, it is true P/F. You people make me paranoid!

that sounds like they just don't understand the question. again, it's a safe assumption if you're not at a top school, that it isn't true P/F

 

[DermViser]

I hate every single medical school parody video, because none of them are ever funny and they're made for the sole purpose of acquiring validation. Truly, I just wish people would stop making those. They suck. I feel bad for the people that watch those and are like " ZOMG SO FUNNY VIDEO" when there's like 100 million things actually funny on the internet

Some are great in terms of quality --- i.e. University of Maryland's Frozen rendition -- the first one I think where the students can actually sing WELL and can actually relate to real med students. Yes, the above Harvard video while slightly funny, does come off as pretentious (parody or otherwise).

 

[DermViser]

that sounds like they just don't understand the question. again, it's a safe assumption if you're not at a top school, that it isn't true P/F

Exactly. Just bc your MS-2 (big sib) med student says it is, doesn't mean jack squat. It's like asking the med students on med school tours real questions. They aren't going to tell you the real deal necessarily since part of their position is to trump up the school.

 

[PL198]

Some are great in terms of quality --- i.e. University of Maryland's Frozen rendition -- the first one I think where the students can actually sing WELL and can actually relate to real med students. Yes, the above Harvard video while slightly funny, does come off as pretentious (parody or otherwise).

I thought that one was bad. like it's only funny in the " this isn't horrible and since you're a medical student I'll give you bonus points so it's funny/good " sense. the kind of person that would make those videos is essentially a complete tool in my eyes.

 

[PL198]

Exactly. Just bc your MS-2 (big sib) med student says it is, doesn't mean jack squat. It's like asking the med students on med school tours real questions. They aren't going to tell you the real deal necessarily since part of their position is to trump up the school.

I bet many of them don't even know what true in that context means though. I've asked numerous people at my school and they're all like " yeah we're P/F" and it's like no idiot I know that, there are differing types of P/F

 

[DermViser]

I thought that one was bad. like it's only funny in the " this isn't horrible and since you're a medical student I'll give you bonus points so it's funny/good " sense. the kind of person that would make those videos is essentially a complete tool in my eyes.

The Harvard one or the Maryland one?

 

[DermViser]

Dermieeee. I specifically remember us both being involved in a thread where someone was ranked lower than they should have been based off scores and grades because of "extracurriculars" and other subjective nonsense. RANK. Not AOA selection. Usually, I believe you are correct though.

I know. That's the ONLY case I have ever heard of that happening in terms of class rank calculation.

 

[PL198]

The Harvard one or the Maryland one?

the harvard one was god awful, the maryland one was just poor. I've seriously never seen one I'd consider funny or successful

 

[DermViser]

the harvard one was god awful, the maryland one was just poor. I've seriously never seen one I'd consider funny or successful

I guess I was more concentrating on the singing quality/ability in the Maryland one.

 

[Stagg737]

All clerkships have a "consistent rubric" on their clinical evals. Doesn't mean jack squat.

In reality no, it probably doesn't, but at least there is some kind of set standard as opposed to give 'em what you feel like. Which will inevitably happen anyway, but at least we'll know what they're looking at when we rotate.

Back on the P/F thing, shouldn't every school have the actual P/F policy in the student handbook somewhere? If someone explicitly asks if it is really just pass/fail and the school affirms there's no stratification, then stratifying the class could technically be considered fraud. I'm sure schools spin the situation and don't tell the class every detail, but I would hope that no med school would flat out lie to the entire student body about something like that.

 

[DermViser]

In reality no, it probably doesn't, but at least there is some kind of set standard as opposed to give 'em what you feel like. Which will inevitably happen anyway, but at least we'll know what they're looking at when we rotate.

Back on the P/F thing, shouldn't every school have the actual P/F policy in the student handbook somewhere? If someone explicitly asks if it is really just pass/fail and the school affirms there's no stratification, then stratifying the class could technically be considered fraud. I'm sure schools spin the situation and don't tell the class every detail, but I would hope that no med school would flat out lie to the entire student body about something like that.

It's not at all uncommon for an attending to decide the grade he's giving you (High Pass) and then check off all the boxes in that column that go under that grade to get that final grade. Same for residents and interns who will evaluate you.

The grades given and will be put on a transcript will be in the student handbook. How exactly a class rank is calculated at the end of MS-3 to put on your MSPE many times will be hidden and won't be in that handbook and if you ask, they may not tell you or will be very vague.

 

[PL198]

If you have AoA, it's safe to assume you aren't true P/F, as there would essentially be no other way to assess it besides step 1 scores.

 

[Stagg737]

It's not at all uncommon for an attending to decide the grade he's giving you (High Pass) and then check off all the boxes in that column that go under that grade to get that final grade. Same for residents and interns who will evaluate you.

The grades given and will be put on a transcript will be in the student handbook. How exactly a class rank is calculated at the end of MS-3 to put on your MSPE many times will be hidden and won't be in that handbook and if you ask, they may not tell you or will be very vague.

I figured that was probably true for rotation grades. That's just shady with the class rank though. Students should at least be able to know what factors will affect their class rank, even if they don't know the details about it. Sounds like either the school has something to hide or needs an excuse for admins to just put whatever they want in the MSPE, which they basically can anyway. Idk why it would be necessary to lie about something like how class rank is determined, it's just silly.

 

[GUH]

No matter how hard schools try to do P/F grading schema, the "mission creep" always sneaks in. I guess it's second nature to want to stratify your best and worst performing students.

And here I thought that's what professor evals and board scores were for.

His school is Pass/Fail, so some schools, bc they know students will only aim for 70%, kick up the P to a 75% instead.

So now they'll aim for a 75%... Why not set the passing grade to 90%?

 

[DermViser]

So now they'll aim for a 75%... Why not set the passing grade to 90%?

Bc then more than half the class would fail.

 

[DermViser]

I figured that was probably true for rotation grades. That's just shady with the class rank though. Students should at least be able to know what factors will affect their class rank, even if they don't know the details about it. Sounds like either the school has something to hide or needs an excuse for admins to just put whatever they want in the MSPE, which they basically can anyway. Idk why it would be necessary to lie about something like how class rank is determined, it's just silly.

Or it would make medical students more neurotic and obsessed than they already are.

 

[Stagg737]

Or it would make medical students more neurotic and obsessed than they already are.

Sounds like a personal problem (of the med students). Being a doctor is supposedly stressful and not every patient has a happy or even good outcome, so students should probably learn how to deal with that before they start seeing patients. Our class rank is determined by our percentage in each class, not GPA, yet pretty much everyone I know seems more concerned about learning the material than their grade. We're also overwhelmingly type A people, so I don't see why it should be an issue anywhere else.

 

[DermViser]

Sounds like a personal problem (of the med students). Being a doctor is supposedly stressful and not every patient has a happy or even good outcome, so students should probably learn how to deal with that before they start seeing patients. Our class rank is determined by our percentage in each class, not GPA, yet pretty much everyone I know seems more concerned about learning the material than their grade. We're also overwhelmingly type A people, so I don't see why it should be an issue anywhere else.

There's a difference between being stressed about medicine and patients, and being stressed bc you feel like you're competing against fellow med students for grades which then snowballs into rank which then snowballs into what residency one gets, etc. etc.

 

[Frazier]

I feel like those groups that give you the image that they're above it are the ones that actually would obsess over it. It wouldn't surprise me for Harvard profs to act like FA is a joke but then memorize it and incorporate it into the lectures.

We do not teach to the boards, in the name of:

...
...
...

 

[Frazier]

I liked some of their past ones (gunner song -- or w/e it was called), but this video not so much. Imagine it is funny if you're in their class, as likely laced with inside jokes/pics from their facebook page.

Nevertheless, past vids had more universal appeal, IMO.

 

[DermViser]

I liked some of their past ones (gunner song -- or w/e it was called), but this video not as much. Prob laced with mostly inside makes from their facebook page. Past vids had more universal appeal.

I agree. I like the ones best that have universal appeal - the ones where almost every med students can nod their head bc they felt the same way as well, like this for example:

 

[MedWonk]

And here I thought that's what professor evals and board scores were for.

So now they'll aim for a 75%... Why not set the passing grade to 90%?

Except, no one does that. And the tests are challenging enough that more than half the people would fail if the failure threshold were 90%. The minimum threshold is set as a baseline of competence, as in if you get at least a 75 in all the classes then you're unlikely to get a godawful score on Step 1 and manage to keep up and not fail shelf exams in the clinical years. Class averages for our exams suggests it isn't really encouraging anyone to slack off, anyway.

 

[GUH]

Except, no one does that. And the tests are challenging enough that more than half the people would fail if the failure threshold were 90%. The minimum threshold is set as a baseline of competence, as in if you get at least a 75 in all the classes then you're unlikely to get a godawful score on Step 1 and manage to keep up and not fail shelf exams in the clinical years. Class averages for our exams suggests it isn't really encouraging anyone to slack off, anyway.

Is there any evidence that a 75% results in significantly better outcomes than a 70%?

 

[MedWonk]

Is there any evidence that a 75% results in significantly better outcomes than a 70%?

No idea. It could be that students who get a 70 do better than students who get a 75. I don't think it's likely, however. You'd have to get in touch with my school's academic affairs office and obtain student records to see if what they claim is true or not. Good luck.

 

[PL198]

Sounds like a personal problem (of the med students). Being a doctor is supposedly stressful and not every patient has a happy or even good outcome, so students should probably learn how to deal with that before they start seeing patients. Our class rank is determined by our percentage in each class, not GPA, yet pretty much everyone I know seems more concerned about learning the material than their grade. We're also overwhelmingly type A people, so I don't see why it should be an issue anywhere else.

medicine is not type A people. there are 0 classes of medical students in america that are overwhelmingly type A. the entire training platform for 2 years + undergrad is memorizing books. that's the complete antithesis of type A

the whole point of P/F is to stop having students compete with each other, which can actually lead to patients being harmed in 3rd and 4th year. If you shove it in the kids faces about how they're being ranked, it completely undoes this discouragement. in terms of lying to students or saving harm from patients, pretty sure you can figure out which one is the better choice. not to mention it would have just gotten worse with time if grades were kept. if students in 2005 are willing to shred other students notes, leading to potential harm for patient, imagine what they would do in 2025 when it's 2x as competitive.

 

[Psai]

Is there any evidence that a 75% results in significantly better outcomes than a 70%?

The kids who get a 90 are definitely smarter than the kids who get a 70 and you can tell the difference as soon as you talk to them.

 

[alpinism]

The kids who get a 90 are definitely smarter than the kids who get a 70 and you can tell the difference as soon as you talk to them.

As soon as they open their mouths.

 

[Stagg737]

There's a difference between being stressed about medicine and patients, and being stressed bc you feel like you're competing against fellow med students for grades which then snowballs into rank which then snowballs into what residency one gets, etc. etc.

medicine is not type A people. there are 0 classes of medical students in america that are overwhelmingly type A. the entire training platform for 2 years + undergrad is memorizing books. that's the complete antithesis of type A

the whole point of P/F is to stop having students compete with each other, which can actually lead to patients being harmed in 3rd and 4th year. If you shove it in the kids faces about how they're being ranked, it completely undoes this discouragement. in terms of lying to students or saving harm from patients, pretty sure you can figure out which one is the better choice. not to mention it would have just gotten worse with time if grades were kept. if students in 2005 are willing to shred other students notes, leading to potential harm for patient, imagine what they would do in 2025 when it's 2x as competitive.

Well if med schools/residencies were honest with students and let them know how little pre-clinical grades mattered, then maybe the students would focus on them less and focus more on what actually matters, learning the skills and getting strong board scores (from what I understand at least). Medical students should be mature enough to understand the goal of this profession and the consequences of not working well with others. If a student is cut-throat enough to sabotage their peers then they don't deserve to treat patients or even be a physician. I would hope that if a med school found out that a student was shredding another's notes there would be heavy punishment for that action.

 

[DermViser]

Well if med schools/residencies were honest with students and let them know how little pre-clinical grades mattered, then maybe the students would focus on them less and focus more on what actually matters, learning the skills and getting strong board scores (from what I understand at least). Medical students should be mature enough to understand the goal of this profession and the consequences of not working well with others. If a student is cut-throat enough to sabotage their peers then they don't deserve to treat patients or even be a physician. I would hope that if a med school found out that a student was shredding another's notes there would be heavy punishment for that action.

It's usually never this bad in terms of being a gunner. And preclinical grades do matter somewhat if they contribute to your overall class rank.

 

[DermViser]

We do not teach to the boards, in the name of:
...
...
...

I just lost it when I saw Nick Offerman's smirk.

 

[PL198]

Well if med schools/residencies were honest with students and let them know how little pre-clinical grades mattered, then maybe the students would focus on them less and focus more on what actually matters, learning the skills and getting strong board scores (from what I understand at least). Medical students should be mature enough to understand the goal of this profession and the consequences of not working well with others. If a student is cut-throat enough to sabotage their peers then they don't deserve to treat patients or even be a physician. I would hope that if a med school found out that a student was shredding another's notes there would be heavy punishment for that action.

lol wut? you're an m1 you should know this statement to be a joke by now. medical school is like junior high.

 

[DermViser]

If you have AoA, it's safe to assume you aren't true P/F, as there would essentially be no other way to assess it besides step 1 scores.

Actually there is -- third year clerkship grades as well as a combo of research, community service, extracurricular leadership positions, etc.

 

[PL198]

Actually there is -- third year clerkship grades as well as a combo of research, community service, extracurricular leadership positions, etc.

tell me this isn't a thing

 

[DermViser]

tell me this isn't a thing

Depends on how your specific AOA chapter works. It is usually a combination of grades, Step scores, leadership, community service, research, and peer votes. But not all chapters function this way - esp. Junior AOA which is usually just straight M1/M2 grades and board scores.

 

[DermViser]

It's funny - the junior AOA people in my class were the true rockstars (i.e. smart and great people with amazing CVs - research and leadership). They were also some of my favorite people in our class, and like ones I would go to in the future as a doctor. It was senior AOA that was the grades/boards/gunner crew.

LOL!!! Same with us. The Junior AOA people were definitely the people who aced everything and not just in academics either -- starting philanthropy organizations (not just a creating a school club to get my name on something trick either), etc. and were very friendly and helpful and actively tried to help class cohesion. I just know some schools incorporate CV stuff more for Senior than Junior.

I think the worst though is when a person in the class says that another person "wasted" their AOA spot (that other person just so happens to be someone who felt they deserved it instead and happen to be a douchenozzle in general) bc they went into a specialty that other person didn't deem worthy.

 

[Stagg737]

lol wut? you're an m1 you should know this statement to be a joke by now. medical school is like junior high.

Actually our class as a whole is pretty mature. I don't think I've met anyone here that isn't willing to stop and take at least a minute or two to help another student answer questions or that complains about silly things too much. I. Sure there are 1 or 2 people in my class that are really immature, but for the most part I really don't see that here.

 

[DermViser]

Actually our class as a whole is pretty mature. I don't think I've met anyone here that isn't willing to stop and take at least a minute or two to help another student answer questions or that complains about silly things too much. I. Sure there are 1 or 2 people in my class that are really immature, but for the most part I really don't see that here.

It's also the first semester of MS-1 where everyone is on relatively friendly terms. The fireworks haven't started yet.

 

[PL198]

Actually our class as a whole is pretty mature. I don't think I've met anyone here that isn't willing to stop and take at least a minute or two to help another student answer questions or that complains about silly things too much. I. Sure there are 1 or 2 people in my class that are really immature, but for the most part I really don't see that here.

you won't be saying that in a year.

 

[Stagg737]

It's also the first semester of MS-1 where everyone is on relatively friendly terms. The fireworks haven't started yet.

you won't be saying that in a year.

Greaaat...I'll keep that in mind and hope that ya'll are wrong 😕

 

[PL198]

Greaaat...I'll keep that in mind and hope that ya'll are wrong 😕

they're immature right now just hiding it because everyone is shell-shocked and trying to put on their best behavior for each other. the animal will come out soon