Path to specialize

[deleted738762]

I'm applying to dental schools and don't want to limit the possibility of specializing in the future. Does it matter what dental school I get into? I know it does a little, but if I study hard and be at the top of my class will it be just as easy to specialize as someone who went to Columbia?

I'm not to sure how this all works for dental schools because it seems like the more prestigious school you go to the easier it is to specialize. If someone can help me out that would be appreciated.
Thanks

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[kidsaremypassion]

Short answer=Yes, you can specialize from anywhere.
Most important factors: Class rank, GPA, specialty related activities, letters of recommendation, research and showing interest in the field you wish to specialize in.

 

[deleted738762]

Short answer=Yes, you can specialize from anywhere.
Most important factors: Class rank, GPA, specialty related activities, letters of recommendation, research and showing interest in the field you wish to specialize in.

So why do I keep hearing it's easier to get into if you go to a big name like Columbia, Harvard, PENN etc

 

[#cariology]

So why do I keep hearing it's easier to get into if you go to a big name like Columbia, Harvard, PENN etc

People need to justify the outrageous cost of attendance.

 

[Str82th]

It is true that you can specialize from any program. Rank is the most important factor.


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[deleted738762]

It is true that you can specialize from any program. Rank is the most important factor.


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So wouldn't it be harder to specialize in an ivy league school. Since a lot of competitive students are shooting for the top? Or is shooting for the top of the class not as significant when going to an ivy league school as opposed to a state school?

 

[kidsaremypassion]

So why do I keep hearing it's easier to get into if you go to a big name like Columbia, Harvard, PENN etc

Because those programs typically don't release class ranks every semester, like state schools do, thereby reducing the pressure to rank "top 10". People are also hoping that the prestigious name of those schools will help give their application that extra "umph" when it comes to residency applications. I wouldn't know if any of that is actually true tho... and not sure if its worth the extra debt...

 

[super frank]

Ivies hook you up, something to consider.

The Ivy I'm attending ended up costing just as much as my "state" school. So see how things shake out for you.

Best of luck!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

So why do I keep hearing it's easier to get into if you go to a big name like Columbia, Harvard, PENN etc

Simple answer: These schools are full of gunners. They have a disproportionate number of students applying for residency. Something like 25% of the students at Columbia are aiming for OMFS. At my humble state school it was around 5% for my class. It's the student that matters, not the school. Program directors should care about what YOU have done to prepare YOURSELF to join their program. Your school's name will not have magically made you a better dentist. You need to simply put in the work!

Big Hoss

 

[deleted738762]

Simple answer: These schools are full of gunners. They have a disproportionate number of students applying for residency. Something like 25% of the students at Columbia are aiming for OMFS. At my humble state school it was around 5% for my class. It's the student that matters, not the school. Program directors should care about what YOU have done to prepare YOURSELF to join their program. Your school's name will not have magically made you a better dentist. You need to simply put in the work!

Big Hoss

So if it is more competitive at Columbia then would it not be easier to go to a state school and compete with less people to be top of the class?

 

[deleted738762]

Because those programs typically don't release class ranks every semester, like state schools do, thereby reducing the pressure to rank "top 10". People are also hoping that the prestigious name of those schools will help give their application that extra "umph" when it comes to residency applications. I wouldn't know if any of that is actually true tho... and not sure if its worth the extra debt...

That makes sense

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

So if it is more competitive at Columbia then would it not be easier to go to a state school and compete with less people to be top of the class?

Honestly, don't worry about "competing" with others. You need to just worry about you. All you can do is your best to become a well rounded applicant. Your school's name will be just a single line on your CV. It's up to you to fill out the rest.

Big Hoss

 

[Life of Pablo]

I would also say a lot of the Ivy league dental students are able to specialize because they typically do well on the entrance exams. Again, though, that comes down to the student and not necessarily the school.

 

[DDSER1]

If I had to do it all over again, I would have gone to "prestigious" pass/fail school. The class rank thing is so much stress.

Aren't you still a predent?

 

[surfline]

Are boards still the main priority, or is the ADAT more important now?

 

[Life of Pablo]

Are boards still the main priority, or is the ADAT more important now?

Boards are pass/fail now so they don't entirely matter as long as you pass.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Are boards still the main priority, or is the ADAT more important now?

The ADAT seems to be struggling to gain widespread adoption. Probably because it's ridiculous to assume 160 questions covering potentially anything taught in dental school is valid measure of one's knowledge (there's another 40 on data interpretation).

Big Hoss

 

[wengerout]

Ivies hook you up, something to consider.

The Ivy I'm attending ended up costing just as much as my "state" school. So see how things shake out for you.

Best of luck!

I'll second this.

Just looking at the numbers, Columbia puts out several times more students in specialties than my state school. Once the cost became cheaper than my state school it was an easy choice.

For students who have a much cheaper option comes down to their personal situation/preference.

Personally I don't believe even if every person from my state school decided to specialize the total amount of students who got into a specialty would change substantially. The culture of the school is to produce GP's. They do not hide this fact.

I don't think the Ivy name has anything to do with why they have higher specialization rates. I think the main factors will be much kinder ranking policies and giving more time to do research/other activities that look good to program directors(these are not exclusive to Ivy schools either). Some would argue that the caliber of student plays a role but I dispute this. The difference between a 21AA and a 23AA is overstated IMHO. We all had to be very intelligent to make it to this point.

Anyway OP, if you're in doubt go for the cheaper option. End of the day it's a slightly harder road but you can specialize out of anywhere. You'll know if an Ivy/other school is right for you assuming you get accepted.


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[wengerout]

So if it is more competitive at Columbia then would it not be easier to go to a state school and compete with less people to be top of the class?

Depends how you wanna slice it. There are smart people everywhere. Depending on the state school you will have to be in the top 10-20% to have a good chance to get the specialty you want. At a school with kinder ranking systems, say at UPENN for example, this isn't as much of a concern. However, you still have to prove to program directors why you deserve a spot in their program in many other ways.


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[wengerout]

Simple answer: These schools are full of gunners. They have a disproportionate number of students applying for residency. Something like 25% of the students at Columbia are aiming for OMFS. At my humble state school it was around 5% for my class. It's the student that matters, not the school. Program directors should care about what YOU have done to prepare YOURSELF to join their program. Your school's name will not have magically made you a better dentist. You need to simply put in the work!

Big Hoss

I know we've debated this before, but I have to ask again, don't you wonder how many more from your school would have applied if they thought they actually had a chance? We can't all be big hoss after all.


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[wengerout]

Because those programs typically don't release class ranks every semester, like state schools do, thereby reducing the pressure to rank "top 10". People are also hoping that the prestigious name of those schools will help give their application that extra "umph" when it comes to residency applications. I wouldn't know if any of that is actually true tho... and not sure if its worth the extra debt...

I don't think anyone actually thinks the name alone makes a difference. As for the debt I think it largely depends on 1. Did you have cheaper options on the table and 2. Is your residency requiring any more tuition?


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[kidsaremypassion]

I don't think anyone actually thinks the name alone makes a difference. As for the debt I think it largely depends on 1. Did you have cheaper options on the table and 2. Is your residency requiring any more tuition?


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Maybe not the name, but the reputation of the school...
Personal scenario; one of my residency interviews somewhere on the East coast, almost all of the applicants being interviewed during that session came from Ivies, other than 2 applicants, including myself. So clearly, whoever was on the admissions committee for that program had some sort of affinity towards the Ivies...
However, I attended 6 more interviews where this trend did not hold true. Interviewees were from all over the country, literally.
I understand if there are no cheaper options, but if you do, I'm not sure if that potential chance of your school carrying your application is worth thousands of extra dollars in tuition.

 

[FanOfCostco]

just my observation here but it seems like east coast is pretty big on who you know. So if the residents know the applicant, they will def get a good word.

I'm ready for the flaming. Bring it on!

 

[Str82th]

So wouldn't it be harder to specialize in an ivy league school. Since a lot of competitive students are shooting for the top? Or is shooting for the top of the class not as significant when going to an ivy league school as opposed to a state school?

What you need to find out is how programs rank. Some schools rank strictly by GPA, so multiple people can share the same class rank. That makes it much less competitive.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

I know we've debated this before, but I have to ask again, don't you wonder how many more from your school would have applied if they thought they actually had a chance? We can't all be big hoss after all.


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No, there just weren't that many interested in OMFS in my class. Those that Matched did so at very selective 6-year programs. Only one applicant didn't Match, but he decided on oral surgery half way through 3rd year so his application was weak. It really comes down to what people are interested in. For example, my class only had one gunning for ortho, but the class below us had several. It becomes pretty clear who's gunning for what early on. How many of the class stacked with gunners at the Ivies have envisioned themselves as GP's? Likely not very many. That would mean they are failures in their minds - so is the gunner mentality. How many students at your state school see themselves as GP's? Likely the majority. Like I said above, your school's name is a single line on your CV. It's up to YOU, not your school, to fill up the rest, and you can absolutely do that at any school.

Big Hoss

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

Lol @ thinking about specializing when you haven't even gotten accepted to a dental school, let alone considered being in debt for the rest of your living life

 

[wengerout]

Maybe not the name, but the reputation of the school...
Personal scenario; one of my residency interviews somewhere on the East coast, almost all of the applicants being interviewed during that session came from Ivies, other than 2 applicants, including myself. So clearly, whoever was on the admissions committee for that program had some sort of affinity towards the Ivies...
However, I attended 6 more interviews where this trend did not hold true. Interviewees were from all over the country, literally.
I understand if there are no cheaper options, but if you do, I'm not sure if that potential chance of your school carrying your application is worth thousands of extra dollars in tuition.

Hmm I could totally see the East Coast being more friendly to Ivy's when you put in like that. As you said though that one small advantage isn't worth the extra cost in tuition. The ranking system/culture in comparison to the other options is what did it for me.


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[wengerout]

No, there just weren't that many interested in OMFS in my class. Those that Matched did so at very selective 6-year programs. Only one applicant didn't Match, but he decided on oral surgery half way through 3rd year so his application was weak. It really comes down to what people are interested in. For example, my class only had one gunning for ortho, but the class below us had several. It becomes pretty clear who's gunning for what early on. How many of the class stacked with gunners at the Ivies have envisioned themselves as GP's? Likely not very many. That would mean they are failures in their minds - so is the gunner mentality. How many students at your state school see themselves as GP's? Likely the majority. Like I said above, your school's name is a single line on your CV. It's up to YOU, not your school, to fill up the rest, and you can absolutely do that at any school.

Big Hoss

Well at my particular state school from the Get go they say "you're here to be a GP", which kind of sets the tone for specializing. I personally know a good amount of people who are entering/entered the school pretty indifferent either way to specializing. However if they don't rank as highly as they would like year one they tend to say "I'll just be a GP it's not worth the effort".

Also, even at the Ivy's you would be surprised how many end up choosing to go GP simply because they are tired of school. I think about half of the CDM class in 2016 went GP (including GPR's/AEGD's) and the other half specialized. Even myself, I'm not 100% either way. Just want to keep an open mind.


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[wengerout]

What you need to find out is how programs rank. Some schools rank strictly by GPA, so multiple people can share the same class rank. That makes it much less competitive.


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^This. IMHO this is what matters, not the name of the school.


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[wengerout]

just my observation here but it seems like east coast is pretty big on who you know. So if the residents know the applicant, they will def get a good word.

I'm ready for the flaming. Bring it on!

It only makes sense that more east coast applicants from east coast schools would stay on the East cost, and the same should be on average true for the West.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

Also, even at the Ivy's you would be surprised how many end up choosing to go GP simply because they are tired of school.

And to think they could have saved upwards of $250,000 by going to their state school, which school you've argued would have better prepared them to be GP's.

Big Hoss

 

[deleted738762]

Lol @ thinking about specializing when you haven't even gotten accepted to a dental school, let alone considered being in debt for the rest of your living life

Hope you had a jolly good laugh Craig. I literally said "I'm applying to dental schools and don't want to limit the possibility of specializing in the future" Hence the thread. Knowing what school you want to attend and the potential of specializing as an option is an important factor for a pre-dental student.

 

[deleted738762]

So what I'm getting here is that the ivy league school have a pass/fail system so there isn't a "ranking system" so it might be easier to get into a specialty. Correct?

Let's say someone attended a state school and had a 3.9 GPA and 1st in their class. Someone else had a 3.9 GPA from Columbia but you can't really tell there class rank due to pass/fail. Then wouldn't the state school student have a better chance at getting in because they are ranked first.

 

[wengerout]

And to think they could have saved upwards of $250,000 by going to their state school, which school you've argued would have better prepared them to be GP's.

Big Hoss

Perhaps but as other posters have stated every situation is different. Some didn't get into their state school, some through various means of financial aid matched or got a cheaper deal than their state school, some have a person financing their education, and some simply wouldn't be happy at their state school.

As for better preparing them to be GP's, possibly. To my knowledge there's been no objective measurement of the difference in quality of GP's between schools. Therefore, although some state schools do have a vocal goal of manly producing GP's, and we can assume their students would have more exposure to the in's and out's of being a GP, to say as fact that they will make better dentist in the long-term is nothing but hearsay. As many dentist have told me, dental school is more about teaching you about how to not be a bad dentist than to become an excellent one.


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[wengerout]

So what I'm getting here is that the ivy league school have a pass/fail system so there isn't a "ranking system" so it might be easier to get into a specialty. Correct?

Let's say someone attended a state school and had a 3.9 GPA and 1st in their class. Someone else had a 3.9 GPA from Columbia but you can't really tell there class rank due to pass/fail. Then wouldn't the state school student have a better chance at getting in because they are ranked first.

To my understanding, you're right in that you might stick out more. However at UPenn they still rank their top 10 and rank everyone else 11, so you won't have this issue. At Columbia they rank in thirds, so if you're in the top third that will stand out to a degree.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

I think some of you are making specializing seem harder than it really is. You certainly don't have to be in the top 5% to specialize. Does it help? Absolutely. But, my class had two Match to endo who were around the middle of the class and one to pedo who was in the bottom third. Of course they had to stand out elsewhere on their application, but they made it happen.

Also, remember many dental residencies charge ridiculous tuition. If you can save some money up front by going to your state school, I'd highly encourage it! If you went to UPenn for dental school and followed on there for ortho, you'd potentially have $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

Perhaps but as other posters have stated every situation is different. Some didn't get into their state school, some through various means of financial aid matched or got a cheaper deal than their state school, some have a person financing their education, and some simply wouldn't be happy at their state school.

As for better preparing them to be GP's, possibly. To my knowledge there's been no objective measurement of the difference in quality of GP's between schools. Therefore, although some state schools do have a vocal goal of manly producing GP's, and we can assume their students would have more exposure to the in's and out's of being a GP, to say as fact that they will make better dentist in the long-term is nothing but hearsay. As many dentist have told me, dental school is more about teaching you about how to not be a bad dentist than to become an excellent one.


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Keep in mind that this poster is going to a school where he will be in the unprecedented figure of being in over half a million in the hole. He will, naturally, try to rationalize this life choice. The reality is that certain dental schools do in fact produce better GP's than other schools, as the philosophy of the dental school comes into play here. Ask the faculty and past alumni, which I have, about how prepared they feel after graduating. Alumni donations, etc. My dad, a private practice owner, credits his dental school wholly with regard to his success. No two dental schools are the same.

 

[wengerout]

Keep in mind that this poster is going to a school where he will be in the unprecedented figure of being in over half a million in the hole. He will, naturally, try to rationalize this life choice. The reality is that certain dental schools do in fact produce better GP's than other schools, as the philosophy of the dental school comes into play here. Ask the faculty and past alumni, which I have, about how prepared they feel after graduating. Alumni donations, etc. My dad, a private practice owner, credits his dental school wholly with regard to his success. No two dental schools are the same.

Except I will not be half a million in the hole because of my financial aid. I will in fact be quite far from that figure, and will be paying less than I would have paid at my state school.

You really should try to stop assuming what you do not know.


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[wengerout]

I think some of you are making specializing seem harder than it really is. You certainly don't have to be in the top 5% to specialize. Does it help? Absolutely. But, my class had two Match to endo who were around the middle of the class and one to pedo who was in the bottom third. Of course they had to stand out elsewhere on their application, but they made it happen.

Also, remember many dental residencies charge ridiculous tuition. If you can save some money up front by going to your state school, I'd highly encourage it! If you went to UPenn for dental school and followed on there for ortho, you'd potentially have $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

The tuition point for residency is very valid. Why I think the decision of school makes a bit more sense for a 4-year OMFS program or a peds program vs. Ortho. Of course there are a few paid ortho residencies, but they are few and far between.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

I will in fact be quite far from that figure, and will be paying less than I would have paid at my state school.

Obviously, you made the right choice! You're an outlier though, so consider yourself fortunate.

Big Hoss

 

[wengerout]

Obviously, you made the right choice! You're an outlier though, so consider yourself fortunate.

Big Hoss

Oh yeah I'm very thankful for it, although you would be surprised how many people I know who got into an Ivy and it was either 1. Cheaper than their state school or 2. They didn't get into their state school. Admissions can be very fickle.


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[Craig_Sherwood234]

Except I will not be half a million in the hole because of my financial aid. I will in fact be quite far from that figure, and will be paying less than I would have paid at my state school.

You really should try to stop assuming what you do not know.


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With interest accrual, overall cost of your institution, specialization proclivity, it's not far fetched to assume where you will be in life--financially speaking, of course. Take your own advice and try your hardest not to spread misinformation based on what "other dentists" have told you and your own rationalization of all dental schools producing the same quality of GP's, guy.

 

[deleted738762]

To my understanding, you're right in that you might stick out more. However at UPenn they still rank their top 10 and rank everyone else 11, so you won't have this issue. At Columbia they rank in thirds, so if you're in the top third that will stand out to a degree.


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Ah I see. I didn't know that and those are 2 schools I'm thinking about.

 

[wengerout]

Ah I see. I didn't know that and those are 2 schools I'm thinking about.

Both have various levels of financial aid so I would apply and see what happens. I'll tell you when I applied to Columbia I had no intention of coming, but the interview was like no other and won me over.


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[deleted738762]

Both have various levels of financial aid so I would apply and see what happens. I'll tell you when I applied to Columbia I had no intention of coming, but the interview was like no other and won me over.


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Yes I've heard that the interviews really give students a good impression of the school. I don't know why I guess I'll have to experience it as well. Regarding financial aid do they offer it to students with high stats only?

 

[Steins;Gate]

I think some of you are making specializing seem harder than it really is. You certainly don't have to be in the top 5% to specialize. Does it help? Absolutely. But, my class had two Match to endo who were around the middle of the class and one to pedo who was in the bottom third. Of course they had to stand out elsewhere on their application, but they made it happen.

Also, remember many dental residencies charge ridiculous tuition. If you can save some money up front by going to your state school, I'd highly encourage it! If you went to UPenn for dental school and followed on there for ortho, you'd potentially have $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

The 2 endo and 1 peds, did they match directly after D4?

 

[wengerout]

Yes I've heard that the interviews really give students a good impression of the school. I don't know why I guess I'll have to experience it as well. Regarding financial aid do they offer it to students with high stats only?

I think it depends on the school/your personal situation but having high stats certainly helps.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

The 2 endo and 1 peds, did they match directly after D4?

Yes. The two endo Matched at our school. Your chances are always best at your home institution because you've got an opportunity to really get to know the faculty, and if they like you that is invaluable.

Big Hoss

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Keep in mind that this poster is going to a school where he will be in the unprecedented figure of being in over half a million in the hole. He will, naturally, try to rationalize this life choice. The reality is that certain dental schools do in fact produce better GP's than other schools, as the philosophy of the dental school comes into play here. Ask the faculty and past alumni, which I have, about how prepared they feel after graduating. Alumni donations, etc. My dad, a private practice owner, credits his dental school wholly with regard to his success. No two dental schools are the same.

Unbelievable. Craig must be responsible for disbursing your student loans if he knows so much about your financial life @wengerout

Good luck with NHSC, you’re probably gonna need it with that attitude

 

[kidsaremypassion]

Yes. The two endo Matched at our school. Your chances are always best at your home institution because you've got an opportunity to really get to know the faculty, and if they like you that is invaluable.

Big Hoss

I concur!!