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Thank you. This is a really good point! !!
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Did you tour the schools? Which one gave you the warm fuzzies?
Are you a foodie? Philly has a lot of food options.
Do you need public transit? Which place has that?
Is rent a lot more in either location? Would you have more options in one place vs. the other for renting?
There's lots of ways to sort it if money is absolutely not a consideration.
Are you a foodie? Philly has a lot of food options.
Do you need public transit? Which place has that?
Is rent a lot more in either location? Would you have more options in one place vs. the other for renting?
There's lots of ways to sort it if money is absolutely not a consideration.
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Just to say it one more time: cost. I'd give the cost factor something like 100x the weight of all the other factors if you are in a position to have that flexibility. And I know, your parents are paying. This is really meant for other pre-vets.
I went to UMN - the most expensive land-grant vet school (I think). And I love the school. But I would have gone to my least favorite vet school ever if it were less expensive and I had the flexibility in life to do it. But I had a house and a family and kids in a local school district and didn't have the flexibility to move. It was either UMN or live apart from my family, and we decided that wasn't an option. So it functionally became UMN or no vet school.
Future you will LOVE past you if current you sets up things for the best financial picture after vet school. Vet school is 4 years. Your loans are 10-20 years. Would you rather stick it out at a school that isn't "perfect" for four years or live with a lifestyle lower than what you could have had for 10-20 years? If you're going to be rational about it, it's a no-brainer. On the other hand, if you only focus on school and keep telling yourself "oh, I'll just deal with loans when I need to deal with them" then you're going to spend more time thinking about things like pbl vs traditional learning, or newer facilities vs older facilities, or caseload comparisons, or prestige, etc.
I mean, ideally you'd seek out "lowest cost" and "school that most excites me". But a wise person will give the former substantially more weight than the latter. At the end of four years, you have the exact same degree. And you can MAKE opportunities for yourself - you don't have to go to a 'prestigious' school to do it. In vet med, that distinction is much, much, much less important than human med. Nobody really looks down on someone who went to a lesser known school: vet med as an industry is much better about evaluating the individual rather than assuming they're a great doctor (or a poor one) because they went to a particular school.
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Coming from someone who is also very interested in PBL learning, I understand your dilemma. I know this is not an easy decision for you, and it will be really hard to turn down such a great school either way.
Things to think about:
-Which school were you the most excited to get into?
-Did you visit both schools? Cornell doesn't interview, so if you visited, which one did you feel the best at?
-Where will you see yourself being the happiest? For example, PBL should not be the ONLY reason you want to attend Cornell. Let's say Cornell did not have PBL at all, and had a similar curriculum to Penn. THEN which one would you choose? If it is Penn, then you know your answer should be that you attend Penn. Being happy at a school should not be because it has a PBL program. I would want to go to a certain school because I love the location, my friends and/or SO live there, and it is relatively the same price as other schools. For example, I'd much rather go to a school that is close to my friends and family in a location I'll be happier that has lecture. Rather than going to a school with PBL that I know I will not be as happy because I won't have my friends or family there, and don't like the location as much. As much as I hate lecture, I would put up with it. You can find ways to get hands on animal experience through every vet school.
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I feel like this needs to be restated.
PBL does NOT equal hands on experience. It is just learning via cases in a round about way and having to look up all the information yourself to build a foundation. Instead of lectures providing you that foundation and you can go study it.
The differences between the two have nothing to do how much hands on experience you will get.
PBL does NOT equal hands on experience. It is just learning via cases in a round about way and having to look up all the information yourself to build a foundation. Instead of lectures providing you that foundation and you can go study it.
The differences between the two have nothing to do how much hands on experience you will get.
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deleted498041
Yes, very important to state! My school happens to have some extra hands on in the early years but PBL itself does not give us the hands on.
When considering PBL, please remember that you are spending an equivalent amount of time in class as your colleagues but not actually learning. While they can go home and study notes, you must go home and look up what you need to know and then find time to actually study it after taking notes on it.
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From what I hear, Cornell has a good amount more hands-on experience than Penn anyway in year 1. I'm not sure about year 2. Then year 3 and 4 could be clinics so I don't think it makes sense to compare hands-on experience. I think at Cornell I would be able to get more hands-on experience with cattle and alpacas, horses, etc because NBC at Penn is an hour away. This is more like a bonus because these are not my interest currently but still find it exciting to work with them.
But, related to PBL, at Cornell, the PBL is in small groups and it's discussion based and interactive. I thought this would help with my memory and feeling engaged. So, at Cornell, there is the actual hands-on experience and then the PBL in small groups. PBL forces you to find the resources yourself. I was thinking though... I am already pretty resourceful so as long as I use the lectures at Penn in a smart way, I could find ways to challenge myself that would have been similar to Cornell and still be engaging. Anyway...that's my hope! PreVetMed made some good points about PBL. Thank you...very helpful. I really liked the Cornell Info Session, which focused on the learning style--something that hadn't at all been the focus of the other vet school interviews i went to (i only went to 3 other interviews). I did NOT like ithaca.
But, related to PBL, at Cornell, the PBL is in small groups and it's discussion based and interactive. I thought this would help with my memory and feeling engaged. So, at Cornell, there is the actual hands-on experience and then the PBL in small groups. PBL forces you to find the resources yourself. I was thinking though... I am already pretty resourceful so as long as I use the lectures at Penn in a smart way, I could find ways to challenge myself that would have been similar to Cornell and still be engaging. Anyway...that's my hope! PreVetMed made some good points about PBL. Thank you...very helpful. I really liked the Cornell Info Session, which focused on the learning style--something that hadn't at all been the focus of the other vet school interviews i went to (i only went to 3 other interviews). I did NOT like ithaca.
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Good point. I've been told that Cornell does have less time in class (lecture+PBL small group) than other schools though i heard. When there is a PBL block, students get out of class at 2pm instead of 5pm so they have time to look up concepts. My initial reaction was...I don't like lectures so the PBL sounds great because I would get out of class at 2pm and have free time to do research on my ow,. At either school though, I would be dedicating nearly all of my day to school--whether it's studying and being in lecture.
Say at Cornell, I get out of PBL every other day at 2pm, then, hypothetically, it takes me 3 hours a day to find the material I need and take notes/organize notes before I actually study, then it is 5pm by that time (when I would get out of class at Penn). However, the material may not be focused on the right things and I may be missing concepts. Then I study from 5pm on at either school.
Interesting!! But then there must be a benefit of having to find and organize one's own notes. On the other hand, there is a benefit of lecture learning where you learn what is important and ideally don't miss things. Then, I guess people say every vet school gives you an amazing education..
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If 3 hrs is enough time to research what you need to.
In our PBL courses there were times i definitely spent more than 3 hrs looking up information. There were days where it was less. Don't expect it to magically fit into 3 hrs.
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I don't see how trying to make yourself a schedule based on when class lets out to make your decision now is going to help you much. Again, either school is going to get you where you need to be at the end of these four years. I still think you should go to the cheapest school. Get over the weather, location, etc. It's four years. You can get the heck out once you're done.
I don't think every vet school provides an amazing education. I think they all provide an adequate one. There is probably going to be something you don't like, regardless of where you go. It could be something besides your curriculum as well. If I were at a 100% PBL school, I'd be annoyed that I was paying tuition of of my nose to be told to go home and find the info I need. I like being presented material in a lecture, personally. In no way does it mean that I'm not looking up supplementary info for my lecture material, though.
Based on my experience with a combo of lecture+PBL, PBL is a lot of learning through frustration. I'm glad it's only a small portion of our curriculum. Even with a different approach than UI, I don't think PBL is going to change your life in the way you seem to think it is.
Bumping this quote because I feel like some people are running around in circles here.
Edit:
Agree! Like I said, UI makes PBL a small aspect of the curriculum. Most of my classmates and I spend entire weekends looking up information to write up these cases we get.
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okay okay thanks guys and thanks for the patience. sorry for running in circles- i'm def driving myself crazy with this decision! i feel like i got enough info on PBL. good thing the decision deadline is coming up it'll be nice to have made a decision finally.
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So from what I can recall from this conversation, let me see if I can summarize:
1. You think you'll learn better PBL because it forces you to look-up info and put in extra effort so maybe you'll commit it to memory.
2. Your parents are paying for a large portion of your education, so cost is less of a concern to you.
3. You don't like the town that Cornell is in.
4. Your family wants you to pick Penn because it's closer to them.
My assessment:
1. Unless you're the kid who loves to look stuff up for fun, after you've looked up stuff until your head hurts, I wouldn't make this part of your decision.
2. Don't underestimate cost. Taking money from them now may seem like they are supporting you, but when you get older you will wish you could have done your education cheaper and saved their money, so they could retire earlier and stress less. You'll realize that ultimately it doesn't matter if your DVM says Cornell or Penn and that no one will know you spent X number of more dollars to get it.
3. You're a vet student...you have no life. It doesn't matter what town you are in, you aren't there to party.
4. This is the only one I can't fault you for. I actually took a new job/relocated prior to my application so I could be on same side of the country as my family. I'm still at double digit drive away, but when they retire I'll be about 4-5 hours away. Still far, but short enough to do on a long weekend. I also had a network established in the town of the school I applied prior to my move from time I lived out this way. That network has already proved to be invaluable. That network though is 20+ strong and 10-30 min from school, not "nearby" by a number of hours. If family is going to be a 3 hour drive, I would think you'll find yourself going home less than you think, though I could be wrong. My brother (med school) doesn't spend very much time going to see my parents and he lives <30 min away. He's just extremely busy. If family being close is super important and they are footing the bill I'd have a nice long talk with them about what that extra money means for them.
You will learn to love and hate either school. You'll make the most out of either one. It's what you put in. Ultimately make the decision that the FUTURE you can live with. Good Luck!
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So while I agree with what everyone says about money and future you dealing with the money, and I might be a bit in the minority for this, but I do think you should be somewhat happy with the area you will be living in. I know quite a few people here who constantly complain about being in a city and I'm constantly wondering why they picked here if they had other options. Not liking where you live wears you down, wears others down if your complaining to them and can impact your overall learning experience. Look at all the people who transfer colleges because they're unhappy with where they are at one place and then excel once they transfer (and yes, I realize that there are often other factors too.)
And you can have a life. How much of one is up to you and what your studying goals are. Should you party every single night? No. But party when you can. I definitely still do. I very much have a life outside of vet school and that's important to me. I love being in the city . I love how easy it is to get anywhere I want. I love all the food options. I love that I can escape the city easily and go hiking or on a long bike ride. I love that I'm close to my family. I love that every time I walk around Center City, I find somewhere new. I'm going to miss Philly and that's why I'm desperately trying to live in the actual city of Providence vs elsewhere in Rhode Island for my internship next year.
So my only issue is your number 3. It's not quite that black and white.
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Details... Why Penn gotta be weird?
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Okay. Yes. It isn't black and white, that I will agree with you. I'm in a town I hate right now but it's temporary. Once I learned to accept it I've found things I like about it. If the location is truly that important to you then it should be a factor in your decision for sure. I have lived in cities as small as 30k and as large as 1.5 million. They are what you make of them. There were pros and cons to each and I found it was a lot more about my attitude than it was the resources within the city. I agree location is important, hence my relocation. I heavily considered where I wanted to live before I relocated. However, I didn't pick my first choice for location/things to do outside of school/how pretty the town was/etc. Ultimately it was a mesh of a lot of things and finances was heavily weighted at the top. If we were talking 15k total here I'd say that's more of a wash, but 15-20k / year is serious cash.
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It's that Ivy League distinction. Only prevets with 7.5 GPAs and 500 GREs get to attend the Ivy League vet schools and get fancy degrees! Ivy League is so important when choosing a vet school.
*sarcasm, Penn is an awesome place full of bright people! But pre vets on this forum from time to time do fall under the misconception that Ivy League pertains to the vet school. It does not!
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deleted676737
Because it's Penn. 😉
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Ivy League is an undergraduate athletic conference.... Because we're so good at sports.
Wait, I thought Cornell was Ivy League too! 😱
Clearly the VMD is to distinguish them from one another. 😛
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I'm an uneducated peasant. Is that really the only thing Ivy League is for? Athletics? I totally didn't know that lol. Cornell was my brother's dream undergrad school when he played hockey.
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cornell's hockey games were some of my best undergrad memories. Go big red!
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I also just got accepted to this research fellowship thing at cornell over the summer. It seems like a really really good opportunity bc i dont have a background in research but i probably shouldnt pick a school based on one summer. Are these fellowships/internships really abundant in vet school? I know i ask a lot of questions but like.. i just like to be informed before making a decision.
It really helps me to hear peoples different perspectives esp people in vet school who have experience with this stuff. So thank you
It really helps me to hear peoples different perspectives esp people in vet school who have experience with this stuff. So thank you
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Yes they are abundant in many if not most schools. If you are proactive enough, they're not hard to get
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Purdue, Iowa, and Michigan have summer veterinary research programs as well and I'm sure there are many more.
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I don't think people who lack an understanding of the volume of info you need to learn in vet school have the capacity to understand why in the end it doesn't matter.
Like think of it this way. Let's say getting through vet school required consuming 300 hot dogs per week for a year. All schools have the same condiments.
The traditional school has a buffet tray of warm hot dogs you just keep slogging through.
The PBL school has cold hot dogs in a fridge, and you have a blender, open fire, stove, and liquid nitrogen.
To someone who doesn't understand how sickening it is to eat 300 hot dogs a week, the latter sounds so much better. Especially because you enjoy cooking or whatever.
But in practice, like after the first week. It's ****ing hell no matter which route you take. You just want to puke. And like, there is no joy in cooking the hot dogs by week 2.
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Like think of it this way. Let's say getting through vet school required consuming 300 hot dogs per week for a year. All schools have the same condiments.
The traditional school has a buffet tray of warm hot dogs you just keep slogging through.
The PBL school has cold hot dogs in a fridge, and you have a blender, open fire, stove, and liquid nitrogen.
To someone who doesn't understand how sickening it is to eat 300 hot dogs a week, the latter sounds so much better. Especially because you enjoy cooking or whatever.
But in practice, like after the first week. It's ****ing hell no matter which route you take. You just want to puke. And like, there is no joy in cooking the hot dogs by week 2.
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D
deleted498041
That is the best analogy for PBL I have ever heard of in my life.
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Aw thanks, I worked on it for a week. Haha.
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I'm starving but couldn't even stomach a hot dog right now after that analogy plus the pancake one. Good analogy though.
