PE Failure for this Match Cycle

[Proactiv]

Hey guys,

Does anyone have any advice or information on how to go about this Match cycle with a PE Failure? Unforunately, I failed the PE during the beginning of the year and likely will not be able to retake it for a pass. I am applying to FM with step 1 of 225+, step 2CK 240+, COMLEX 1 of 550+, COMLEX 2CE of 500+. Any advice or information would be appreciated. Thanks !

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[Dr Tapatio]

In the past, they wouldn't rank anyone without a passing PE before the deadline to submit. You need to find out what they'll do about people that still need to take it

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In the past, they wouldn't rank anyone without a passing PE before the deadline to submit. You need to find out what they'll do about people that still need to take it

Programs will have to. 75% of DO applicants will not have a PE score this cycle.

 

[hawthorn9797]

Programs will have to. 75% of DO applicants will not have a PE score this cycle.

Can you elaborate on this a little? Do you think it is a death sentence to not have a PE pass by rank order list? Because as of now no spots are open until after graduation lol

 

[hawthorn9797]

This is key point for this application season.

Can you elaborate? Thanks

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Can you elaborate on this a little? Do you think it is a death sentence to not have a PE pass by rank order list? Because as of now no spots are open until after graduation lol

No. I don't think programs will care. Particularly with MD's not having CS. I know a few programs specifically have told me they won't care.

 

[hawthorn9797]

No. I don't think programs will care. Particularly with MD's not having CS. I know a few programs specifically have told me they won't care.

Awesome, thank you, this has been causing lots of anxiety haha

 

[hawthorn9797]

No. I don't think programs will care. Particularly with MD's not having CS. I know a few programs specifically have told me they won't care.

Sorry to quote you again, but just to clarify, it’s definitely reasonable to
Assume that programs will not take PE into consideration for interview invitations (considering it doesn’t even resume until November) but do you mean that they will not take PE into consideration for Rank Order Lists as well? Thanks again, really appreciate it

 

[Dr Tapatio]

Students should use this case as a way to sue against having this stupid test in the first place. I know last time they became vindictive for it, but the truth is you can't go down without a fight

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry to quote you again, but just to clarify, it’s definitely reasonable to
Assume that programs will not take PE into consideration for interview invitations (considering it doesn’t even resume until November) but do you mean that they will not take PE into consideration for Rank Order Lists as well? Thanks again, really appreciate it

I was told it will not be a factor in either at the programs I talked to. They know Covid has messed this cycle of for everyone.

Now if the NBOME would just cancel the stupid thing then we’d be 100% in the clear.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

we've been speculating this for months on a different thread.
i think programs will still look at a failed PE as a red flag, how big of a red flag is hard to tell. depends a lot on the specialty and program.
regarding not having a PE score period, i don't think most PDs will care.
i've heard two PDs say they thought the PE was no longer required for level 3. i don't think the NBOME has clearly communicated to PDs that the PE is still required for comlex level 3.

 

[hawthorn9797]

I was told it will not be a factor in either at the programs I talked to. They know Covid has messed this cycle of for everyone.

Now if the NBOME would just cancel the stupid thing then we’d be 100% in the clear.

Exactly! Crazy it hasn’t been done. We can cancel sports but we can’t cancel this exam

 

[ciestar]

Exactly! Crazy it hasn’t been done. We can cancel sports but we can’t cancel this exam

The NBOME seems to think it is of critical importance lol

NBME has already cancelled CS for at least a year

 

[hawthorn9797]

we've been speculating this for months on a different thread.
i think programs will still look at a failed PE as a red flag, how big of a red flag is hard to tell. depends a lot on the specialty and program.
regarding not having a PE score period, i don't think most PDs will care.
i've heard two PDs say they thought the PE was no longer required for level 3. i don't think the NBOME has clearly communicated to PDs that the PE is still required for comlex level 3.

haha I’m glad! Maybe their own lack of clear communication will actually benefit us for once

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Family Medicine is unfortunately one of those specialties that will DNR you with any failure. There have been plenty of DOs with IIs to academic programs in desirable areas like Duke and BU who soaped due to a PE failure without a passing score in time for ranking. PDs aren't going to change, with plenty of applicants from MD schools or the Caribbean with all Passes on Step 1 and Step 2 CK without any score from CS.

That's just the reality, and typical stuff from AOA leadership who looks to stampede their students chances at desirable residencies. It's their passive aggressive way of filling FM in the boonies with some decent DO residents.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

Family Medicine is unfortunately one of those specialties that will DNR you with any failure. There have been plenty of DOs with IIs to academic programs in desirable areas like Duke and BU who soaped due to a PE failure without a passing score in time for ranking. PDs aren't going to change, with plenty of applicants from MD schools or the Caribbean with all Passes on Step 1 and Step 2 CK without any score from CS.

That's just the reality, and typical stuff from AOA leadership who looks to stampede their students chances at desirable residencies. It's their passive aggressive way of filling FM in the boonies with some decent DO residents.

aside from pathology, family medicine is probably the MOST LIKELY to rank someone with a failure. this is why students who fail step 1/level 1 on their first attempt are encouraged to apply FM/IM/path...because these specialties are historically more forgiving. not sure about your anecdotal experiences, but these are not the norm.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

aside from pathology, family medicine is probably the MOST LIKELY to rank someone with a failure. this is why students who fail step 1/level 1 on their first attempt are encouraged to apply FM/IM/path...because these specialties are historically more forgiving. not sure about your anecdotal experiences, but these are not the norm.

He’s talking abut the top tier FM residencies like duke etc. not just any FM residency...

 

[DNC127]

He’s talking abut the top tier FM residencies like duke etc. not just any FM residency...

Why would anybody care about those?

The best FM residencies are the unopposed ones where they get to run the hospital.

If this bro/ette wants to do FM they are fine.

Saying differently is obtuse.

Obviously they need to apply broader, but they will match if they do

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Let me just follow up on my original post. I don't know the full extent of how all FM PDs view on the Comlex PE. However, my impression is that FM PDs do use it excessively as a filter for their rank lists relative to other non-PCP specialties. Can't say if PD behaviors for this year will change. However, if you have a Comlex-PE Fail without a Pass by the end of Jan, I would cast your net wide when it comes to FM applications and go to all of your IIs.

FM in general doesn't care about your actual 1/2 scores or your CV. They just want to see that magic P's all around with a guarantee that you're set to graduate from your program. Other specialties outside of FM are more forgiving when it comes to a PE fail.

 

[ciestar]

aside from pathology, family medicine is probably the MOST LIKELY to rank someone with a failure. this is why students who fail step 1/level 1 on their first attempt are encouraged to apply FM/IM/path...because these specialties are historically more forgiving. not sure about your anecdotal experiences, but these are not the norm.

Quite a few programs I applied to said you couldnt have failures to be considered. I do agree that FM does tend to be more forgiving in general

 

[ciestar]

Let me just follow up on my original post. I don't know the full extent of how all FM PDs view on the Comlex PE. However, my impression is that FM PDs do use it excessively as a filter for their rank lists relative to other non-PCP specialties. Can't say if PD behaviors for this year will change. However, if you have a Comlex-PE Fail without a Pass by the end of Jan, I would cast your net wide when it comes to FM applications and go to all of your IIs.

FM in general doesn't care about your actual 1/2 scores or your CV. They just want to see that magic P's all around with a guarantee that you're set to graduate from your program. Other specialties outside of FM are more forgiving when it comes to a PE fail.

I was told this at one point. They care that you’re able to pass your boards. My step 1 score blew but that didnt keep me from getting interviews even at “top” (aka big name university) programs

 

[qwertythrowaway]

Let me just follow up on my original post. I don't know the full extent of how all FM PDs view on the Comlex PE. However, my impression is that FM PDs do use it excessively as a filter for their rank lists relative to other non-PCP specialties. Can't say if PD behaviors for this year will change. However, if you have a Comlex-PE Fail without a Pass by the end of Jan, I would cast your net wide when it comes to FM applications and go to all of your IIs.

FM in general doesn't care about your actual 1/2 scores or your CV. They just want to see that magic P's all around with a guarantee that you're set to graduate from your program. Other specialties outside of FM are more forgiving when it comes to a PE fail.

thats legitimately not possible.
score release dates for the earliest possible PE test date (11/1-12/31) is february 1-9,2021. this is completely f*cked if you're in the boat w/ a failed PE.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

thats legitimately not possible.
score release dates for the earliest possible PE test date (11/1-12/31) is february 1-9,2021. this is completely f*cked if you're in the boat w/ a failed PE.

This is unfortunate for DO students, but PDs don't care about your situation especially when they have ample of MD students from both US and abroad with passing Step 1/2 with CS waived in order to graduate from their respective programs, start training on time, and take Step or Level 3 during intern year.

Hopefully, Comlex PE will be waived by the end of Jan as a requirement for graduation and Level 3.

 

[AMEHigh]

Family Medicine is unfortunately one of those specialties that will DNR you with any failure. There have been plenty of DOs with IIs to academic programs in desirable areas like Duke and BU who soaped due to a PE failure without a passing score in time for ranking. PDs aren't going to change, with plenty of applicants from MD schools or the Caribbean with all Passes on Step 1 and Step 2 CK without any score from CS.

That's just the reality, and typical stuff from AOA leadership who looks to stampede their students chances at desirable residencies. It's their passive aggressive way of filling FM in the boonies with some decent DO residents.

I think this totally program dependent. There is no hard and fast rule for every program. I know the 2 programs I have experience with (being in residency and then as an attending) we’d interview and rank people who had failures.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

Eh. Not much choice I have. Gonna apply broadly with my failed PE and average/low boards, and have a solid plan B in case it doesn’t work out. Shooters gotta shoot.

As long as I pass Step 2 CK, I can still take Step 3 during intern year and get am unrestricted license in most states...so the argument about comlex PE delaying my licensure compared to MDs falls by the wayside for those who have taken the usmle exams.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hopefully, Comlex PE will be waived by the end of Jan as a requirement for graduation and Level 3.

it has already been waived as a graduation requirement.

 

[deleted1062590]

it has already been waived as a graduation requirement.

Depends on the school, no? COCA has waived it, but individual schools still might require it...

 

[Proactiv]

Eh. Not much choice I have. Gonna apply broadly with my failed PE and average/low boards, and have a solid plan B in case it doesn’t work out. Shooters gotta shoot.

As long as I pass Step 2 CK, I can still take Step 3 during intern year and get am unrestricted license in most states...so the argument about comlex PE delaying my licensure compared to MDs falls by the wayside for those who have taken the usmle exams.

Sorry to hear about your experience with the PE as well. If it’s okay for me to ask, what is your plan B? I was going to look at a different career (likely teaching) if this match was unsuccessful for me.

I would also like to thank everyone for your replies; they’ve been very helpful.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

Sorry to hear about your experience with the PE as well. If it’s okay for me to ask, what is your plan B? I was going to look at a different career (likely teaching) if this match was unsuccessful for me.

I would also like to thank everyone for your replies; they’ve been very helpful.

I don’t think you’re going to have an issue matching. In what realm is a 225+ step 1 and 240+ step 2 not adequate to match FM? Seriously. Unless you have no interest in other medical specialties there is no need to jump ship into education/teaching with all your med school debt.

I’m applying to a Moderately competitive specialty that requires a pre-lim year. My Plan B is to apply to a number of PGY-1 prelim programs that have other residency programs at that institution. if I can’t Get a PGY-2 position this year, I will reapply next year (likely to a less competitive specialty), hopefully with a greater chance at matching at the institution where I’m doing my PGY-1 year. It’s not perfect but that’s my plan. I thought about applying to backup IM/FM, but truthfully I don’t have the interest, and interviewing/crafting an application for three different positions (prelim, specialty A, backup specialty) is too much for me personally.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Depends on the school, no? COCA has waived it, but individual schools still might require it...

True, but any school that thinks they will test their whole class by graduation is as delusional as the NBOME