Penalize ACGME programs that refuse to interview/rank DOs

[alprazoslam]

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they should be able to take who they want as should employers and schools. All these governmental quotas and affirmative action and affirmative action like programs are pointless.
Women, minorities, DOs should be taken equality based on applicant ability but to force people to is ludacris

Go home sjws

 

[libertyyne]

No it's printed by the federal government and paid for by desperate applicants. They print for many reasons and a big move on healthcare wouldn't be that shocking. Schools could also hike tuition and still be full. The supply of applicants who are capable of becoming effective physicians far exceeds the number of available spots. And on the other side there is demand for more doctors.

As for the purpose of DO schools. This is completely determined demand. They get second choice of where to send kids so primary care is the place they know they can get funding and resources for. If they gained incentives for other things their values would change accordingly. The governments desire to solve primary care could push this. As we decide we need more primary care docs and realize they come from DO schools. DO schools could easily get the support they need given the right political climate. But I do understand the cultural boundaries here. I'm sure they will continue to fade culminating the deletion of Osteopathy... It will likely die a slow death. And we will just have doctors in primary care.

This is not just determined by demand. The demand of men wanting to marry super models far outstrips the amount of supermodels available, you can try to pass laws to redistribute super model matrimony, but now you are just in la la land and not in america. These schools fill a niche and it is possible that magically they would switch it up and be infused with millions of dollars.But that is unlikely, there is not societal purpose to be filled by doing this. You could easily say that hey just double enrollement of MD schools to generate doctors. Or you know the cheapest way? Allow more FMGS in , easy , cheaper than funding schools and shortage solved. The other thing you are completely missing is many of these schools are in locations that dont need tertiary healthcare systems because they are in rural areas where the demand of these services would not be able to sustain the hospitals, so would these schools move to more urban areas? Why not just open up a new MD school. There is no societal good, there is no protected class being held back, there is no rational reason to enforce an outlandish claim that you are a making.

 

[alprazoslam]

This is not just determined by demand. The demand of men wanting to marry super models far outstrips the amount of supermodels available, you can try to pass laws to redistribute super model matrimony, but now you are just in la la land and not in america. These schools fill a niche and it is possible that magically they would switch it up and be infused with millions of dollars.But that is unlikely, there is not societal purpose to be filled by doing this. You could easily say that hey just double enrollement of MD schools to generate doctors. Or you know the cheapest way? Allow more FMGS in , easy , cheaper than funding schools and shortage solved. The other thing you are completely missing is many of these schools are in locations that dont need tertiary healthcare systems because they are in rural areas where the demand of these services would not be able to sustain the hospitals, so would these schools move to more urban areas? Why not just open up a new MD school. There is no societal good, there is no protected class being held back, there is no rational reason to enforce an outlandish claim that you are a making.

There are legit social injustice claims out there but 99/100 are “life is not fair so new laws need passed that benefit me and my likings”

 

[Chibucks15]

There are legit social injustice claims out there but 99/100 are “life is not fair so new laws need passed that benefit me and my likings”

"and if you don't like it you're a [insert terrible sweeping insult here]"

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Fair enough. What’s the benefit to the government in enforcing these policies?

I guess that depends on where you stand. DO applicants would clearly feel better about their standing. From the larger perspective you could (laboriously, but successfully) argue that it would make better cooperation and lessen animosity and improve diversity In the end patient care would improve . All the same nonsense that was used to keep affirmative action rolling and still effects the entire medical school process.

 

[Chibucks15]

I guess that depends on where you stand. DO applicants would clearly feel better about their standing. From the larger perspective you could (laboriously, but successfully) argue that it would make better cooperation and lessen animosity and improve diversity In the end patient care would improve . All the same nonsense that was used to keep affirmative action rolling and still effects the entire medical school process.

if you've actually been in a clinical setting there is zero animosty between DOs and MDs...its simply PDs wanting to fill their programs with the best possible candidates, most of the time MDs. It is what it is /thread

 

[atomheart]

if you've actually been in a clinical setting there is zero animosty between DOs and MDs...its simply PDs wanting to fill their programs with the best possible candidates, most of the time MDs. It is what it is /thread

You can't blame programs for seeking prestige when it's such a huge factor for applicants. In the end it kinda works out that many programs and applicants each get what they deserve. I have realized I wouldn't want to be around people who only seek prestige through this process.

 

[Chibucks15]

You can't blame programs for seeking prestige when it's such a huge factor for applicants. In the end it kinda works out that many programs and applicants each get what they deserve. I have realized I wouldn't want to be around people who only seek prestige through this process.

absolutely agree...no clue why this site has people that dont get it

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

This is not just determined by demand. The demand of men wanting to marry super models far outstrips the amount of supermodels available, you can try to pass laws to redistribute super model matrimony, but now you are just in la la land and not in america. These schools fill a niche and it is possible that magically they would switch it up and be infused with millions of dollars.But that is unlikely, there is not societal purpose to be filled by doing this. You could easily say that hey just double enrollement of MD schools to generate doctors. Or you know the cheapest way? Allow more FMGS in , easy , cheaper than funding schools and shortage solved. The other thing you are completely missing is many of these schools are in locations that dont need tertiary healthcare systems because they are in rural areas where the demand of these services would not be able to sustain the hospitals, so would these schools move to more urban areas? Why not just open up a new MD school. There is no societal good, there is no protected class being held back, there is no rational reason to enforce an outlandish claim that you are a making.

It's all determined by supply and demand bro... Over simplified, but accurate. Money determines every schools mission, vision, and purpose... Creating a product that is supported by people who pay the bills is everything.

As for the "social good" this is determined ENTIRELY by voters and consumers. So if the politicians, lobbyist, and business owners can convince those groups that DO invasion of MD territory is warranted then it will happen. even if there are better options from more insightful people. An example of this would be the residency hours limits. Most of the medical community shook their heads, but one sob story told about a tired resident changed everything against the advice of the people who knew the most.

Medical professionals of all people know that the rational is not what governs medical law. Human perception and supply and demand do that.
Please don't look to politicians or the masses for the most rational decision.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Just want to point out it looks like you've been switching definitions of the Fed and the federal government.


I think you mean the federal government, not the Fed. The Fed is the Federal Reserve (which has private and federal components), and they don't decide healthcare policy.


The federal government doesn't print money, the Fed does. Even so, just because the Fed prints money it doesn't mean they decide where the money goes; that power lies mostly in Congress.

My thanks for the correction. I got lazy.
The point remains. Those entities are really all controlled by the same forces. Voting and consuming, if the people have a desire for medical education to be funded, it will be, in whatever manner is most desirable.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

if you've actually been in a clinical setting there is zero animosty between DOs and MDs...its simply PDs wanting to fill their programs with the best possible candidates, most of the time MDs. It is what it is /thread

Hypothetically and for the sake of the argument, it doesn't matter what the real clinic setting is like. As I pointed out with the regulation on resident hours example. Perception drives, voting, buying, and ultimately the practice of medicine.

 

[el_duderino]

Going to a DO school is a choice that you make. It's not inherent to who you are as a human being, and it's not something you were born with. Affirmative action for DO is wrong, and the idea of penalizing programs over it is stupid.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Why would you want to go to a place that doesn’t want you? Imagine the backlash you would feel if that happened. If they are a program who is about to be penalized, do you think they would ever let you forget you are only there to fill a quota? That would be pure misery.

I would rather go to a program that looks at my whole application and me as a person. That’s a program that will be good for me.

Based on my experience with DO school and how they looked at my 'whole application' to take me, I am gonna just disagree here. Easier admission usually equals worse program. What would have been good for me would have been to go through another cycle and raise my MCAT a couple more points. DO school has decidedly not been good.

 

[Chibucks15]

Careful in here Grandpa. I wouldn't want you to get hurt. I don't think medicare covers cyberburns.

have you noticed its just you on your side of this debate? maybe its because youre naive and dont know what its like in the real world

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Going to a DO school is a choice that you make. It's not inherent to who you are as a human being, and it's not something you were born with. Affirmative action for DO is wrong, and the idea of penalizing programs over it is stupid.

Do you believe that programs should be allowed to screen all DO candidates out in ERAS?

 

[DO2015CA]

I guess that depends on where you stand. DO applicants would clearly feel better about their standing. From the larger perspective you could (laboriously, but successfully) argue that it would make better cooperation and lessen animosity and improve diversity In the end patient care would improve . All the same nonsense that was used to keep affirmative action rolling and still effects the entire medical school process.

Improve diversity how? A degree doesn’t make you diverse. A black female doctor is a black female doctor no matter if she’s MD or DO. If we are going to enact quotas, it will be best done by true affirmative action where racial percentages are held regardless of their degree. It has been shown time and time again that black doctors are those that serve black neighborhoods and other races of their respective communities. There is zero proof that DOs will move into underserved areas and actually benefit society.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not pushing affirmative action. Just that traditional aa would be 10000x more beneficial than DO aa. Benefit to gov and society.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

@Tozanzibarbymotorcar thank you for the post sorry I'm wrecking it, I'll answer. I disagree with penalizing them. DOs are less desirable for many reasons (their belief in magic is the big one). To change that (on an individual or organizational level) DOs will have to prove they are worth it. Some start late or learn lessons the hard way. Gotta pull up the boot straps and make with life what you can.

have you noticed its just you on your side of this debate? maybe its because youre naive and dont know what its like in the real world

This thread has probably run it's course, so I guess I'll bite.

Maybe it's because I'm right? Maybe it's because you chose the wrong side of a debate? Maybe you just didn't think through your response? Maybe it's because I'm on another level? Isn't it naive to assume the majority is correct? Perhaps you have many wrong assertions on your side and I have just a single correct one?

Anyway, I'm sure your use of reason is much sharper in the clinical setting.
You can chew on those questions for a little while, but please respond I can continue toasting you guys as long as the thread is open.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Improve diversity how? A degree doesn’t make you diverse. A black female doctor is a black female doctor no matter if she’s MD or DO. If we are going to enact quotas, it will be best done by true affirmative action where racial percentages are held regardless of their degree. It has been shown time and time again that black doctors are those that serve black neighborhoods and other races of their respective communities. There is zero proof that DOs will move into underserved areas and actually benefit society.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not pushing affirmative action. Just that traditional aa would be 10000x more beneficial than DO aa. Benefit to gov and society.

Please... anyone can make a case for adding diversity by using anything... it's as poorly defined and used as the word culture.

 

[DO2015CA]

Do you believe that programs should be allowed to screen all DO candidates out in ERAS?

Currently going through this process and even though my ego doesn’t like it, yes.

 

[DO2015CA]

Please... anyone can make a case for adding diversity by using anything... it's as poorly defined and used as the word culture.

But you have yet to actually add substance to the aa argument. So you are truly arguing on the side of increasing government bloat and overreach?

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Improve diversity how? A degree doesn’t make you diverse. A black female doctor is a black female doctor no matter if she’s MD or DO. If we are going to enact quotas, it will be best done by true affirmative action where racial percentages are held regardless of their degree. It has been shown time and time again that black doctors are those that serve black neighborhoods and other races of their respective communities. There is zero proof that DOs will move into underserved areas and actually benefit society.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not pushing affirmative action. Just that traditional aa would be 10000x more beneficial than DO aa. Benefit to gov and society.

I'd be willing to bet DOs are more willing to work in family med and "undeserved" populations. Undeserved is another one of those catchy words that is overused.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

But you have yet to actually add substance to the aa argument. So you are truly arguing on the side of increasing government bloat and overreach?

I was never arguing for it bro... Just stating that the government can and has overreached.
They could easily enact a penalty to encourage DO consideration/acceptance to all residencies.

 

[PapaGuava]

If you don’t have anything else to add, refrain from making useless posts on this thread and targeting other members.

 

[DO2015CA]

I was never arguing for it bro... Just stating that the government can and has overreached.

I’m actually enjoying this exchange.

I understand you said anything could happen but you also are talking about consumer/money/view forces. I am straight up saying there is no natural force that would cause the gov to enact a DO aa. Any force that could be argued can be solved by increasing MD seats. And would be easier because there are so many state MD schools coupled with most DO schools being private.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Right the MD increase makes the most sense. But voters and consumers don't often operate logically. Which is why the DO profession has exploded and not died out. Who in their right mind pays to get medical advice from a doc who believes he/she can move your cranial bones? We could spend forever going through that. At the end of the day MD seats were not opening fast enough. So DOs remained. Fun fact, in parts of the country naturopathic doctors are legally allowed to diagnose, prescribe and treat patients. This includes minor surgery and narcotic prescriptions. What's better is they can bill medicaid. My point is there are many natural forces that could do this, but the demand for thrifty healthcare is the biggest. I should add that as sval hinted, the private sector has huge influence on the government. We literally just had MD and DOs merge residencies. and DOs take 30% of the seats on that residency comity. How can this not be a possibility? It's not necessarily likely, but possible. Stranger things have happened.

TLDR:
If it were easy to put MDs in the place of DOs we would not see so much mid level creep, DO profession increase and physician shortage.
Which is why the original thread question makes sense. MD is losing ground and has been for a long time.

 

[atomheart]

Right the MD increase makes the most sense. But voters and consumers don't often operate logically. Which is why the DO profession has exploded and not died out. Who in their right mind pays to get medical advice from a doc who believes he/she can move your cranial bones? We could spend forever going through that. At the end of the day MD seats were not opening fast enough. So DOs remained. Fun fact, in parts of the country naturopathic doctors are legally allowed to diagnose, prescribe and treat patients. This includes minor surgery and narcotic prescriptions. What's better is they can bill medicaid. My point is there are many natural forces that could do this, but the demand for thrifty healthcare is the biggest. I should add that as sval hinted, the private sector has huge influence on the government. We literally just had MD and DOs merge residencies. and DOs take 30% of the seats on that residency comity. How can this not be a possibility? It's not necessarily likely, but possible. Stranger things have happened.

Of course you understand that a single MD school could crush several DO schools with their financial resources. The reason why their residencies can freely screen anyone they want, or even force a merger in the first place is because they hold all the cards.

 

[el_duderino]

Do you believe that programs should be allowed to screen all DO candidates out in ERAS?

Sure. Or screen all MD candidates. Or all people with a Step 1 < 220. Or > 250.

 

[Stagg737]

When do students have resumes equivalent to their MD peers they tend to match like their peers from md schools. There are still systemic problems with home programs etc, but those problems are the same when you go to an MD school without a home program you are interested in.

or you know you could just push for DO schools to become MD schools and have to same LCME standards so PDs cant discriminate. But how many schools would close and how many would shrink class sizes?

To the first part, there are still programs that will not even consider a superstar DO applicant but will interview just above average MDs. Up until the merger by-laws were passed, there were several programs in NYC that explicitly stated on their websites that they would not consider DOs under any circumstances. That is now against ACGME policy, but some programs still practice it under the table.

Completely agree with the second point though. I wouldn't mind the LCME absorbing COCA/AOA altogether.

Do you believe that programs should be allowed to screen all DO candidates out in ERAS?

No, it's discrimination based on letters. If they want to discriminate against certain schools due to knowing they have sub-par rotation sites or because they don't meed the standards of the residency I don't have a problem with that (or really any screens based on merit). Screening solely based on letters and nothing else is BS though, imo.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Based on my experience with DO school and how they looked at my 'whole application' to take me, I am gonna just disagree here. Easier admission usually equals worse program. What would have been good for me would have been to go through another cycle and raise my MCAT a couple more points. DO school has decidedly not been good.

I'm sorry for your experience and I cannot speak to individual programs, but as an older, non-traditional DO, I applied to many different types of programs for residency and fellowship. I could play the game and call people, finesse specific people, and do what I need to, but I was never looking for a hugely academic residency or fellowship. I wanted to be myself and go to a place that looked at me and my strengths and said "that guy will fit here." I didn't want a program that didn't fit my goals so pretending to be something I am not doesn't help me find that.

there is always an exception to the rule but trying to jam yourself into a place that doesn't want you typically isn't going to end well. Sure there is the first female neurosurgeon, but why go to a place that hates women vs. a place that says "no we just want good applicants." my point is that if everyone there is going to look down on you for being a DO, why not go to a program that won't. and maybe the program doesn't exist in your field of choice. at which point, I don't know, but I don't see how the answer could possibly be "force them to take me."

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

No, it's discrimination based on letters. If they want to discriminate against certain schools due to knowing they have sub-par rotation sites or because they don't meed the standards of the residency I don't have a problem with that (or really any screens based on merit). Screening solely based on letters and nothing else is BS though, imo.

Unfortunately it happens all the time.

Thank you for brining up the website changes. I think many people were unaware of what happened there. They expect programs to all of a sudden stop discriminating when DOs are able to pull their bootstraps up like their MD counterparts. This is not the case nor will it ever be. Sometimes you need policy changes or even penalties to stop bad behavior.

 

[Giovanotto]

Equal opportunity is what we want, equal outcome, not so much. How do we provide equal opportunity? The onus for that lies in each and every DO school, i.e. stop expansion and increasing class size, and instead try to advocate for your current students via research, infrastructure, clerkships, etc.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

they hold all the cards.

This is a key detail. They hold the most desirable cards. Not all of them. The MD pedigree has forced that community to sacrifice numbers and efficiency, which is why despite all that money, their % area of practice is continuing to shrink. They will continue to dominate the fields of highly complex surgery, management, and research. Leaving less desirable specialties to other professionals, geriatrics and peds.
At the end of the day the majority rules, even when it shouldn't and that means that if MDs can't fill the void someone else will. Eventually, will likely come to a place where residencies are either forced to consider everyone or do so to get ahead of the curve, I expect the latter.

 

[atomheart]

This is a key detail. They hold the most desirable cards. Not all of them. The MD pedigree has forced that community to sacrifice numbers and efficiency, which is why despite all that money, their % area of practice is continuing to shrink. They will continue to dominate the fields of highly complex surgery, management, and research. Leaving less desirable specialties to other professionals, geriatrics and peds.
At the end of the day the majority rules, even when it shouldn't and that means that if MDs can't fill the void someone else will. Eventually, will likely come to a place where residencies are either forced to consider everyone or do so to get ahead of the curve, I expect the latter.

Interesting, an NP student once told me this exact same thing but about all physicians instead of just MD. Physicians, particularly DOs, aren't a majority of anything.

I think you underestimate just how competitive it is this year with at least an additional 10% candidates in every field, and all applying and competing for the same low-mid programs as last year. This void you speak of is rapidly shrinking because there simply aren't enough residencies.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Interesting, an NP student once told me this exact same thing but about all physicians instead of just MD. Physicians, particularly DOs, aren't a majority of anything.

I think you underestimate just how competitive it is this year with at least an additional 10% candidates in every field, and all applying and competing for the same low-mid programs as last year. This void you speak of is rapidly shrinking because there simply aren't enough residencies.

More competitive residencies will go to the hot shot MDs. And this is even true in the MD world, better MD school = better connections for better residency. But there are still undersirable positions just waiting to be filled. If the US healthcare system does intend on becoming cheaper and yet at the same time granting more access to providers MDs are clearly not the answer. DOs will have a leg in the game if for no other reason, because they can produce faster.

Uber only exists because people/investors are will to take a chance on a random stranger ferrying people than a licensed regulated cab driver. Lower standards for higher access. But cab drivers will always exist because they have roots in the business and because wealthy people and people with higher standards for their travel will take a cab.

A Closer Look at the 2018 NRMP Match Results
A total of 30,489 PGY-1 positions were offered in all medical specialties in the 2018 NRMP Match, and 29,249 were filled. Of those, 17,740 were filled with seniors in Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME)-accredited U.S. schools of medicine (MD-granting), 3,771 were filled with seniors or graduates of U.S. osteopathic colleges of medicine (DO-granting), and 668 were filled with previous graduates of U.S. MD-granting schools.

 

[235009]

No, it's discrimination based on letters.

"U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information (added in 2008)."

Maybe you should start arguing that DO is a religion 😏

 

[Hippocrates II]

"U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information (added in 2008)."

Maybe you should start arguing that DO is a religion 😏

The definition of discrimination is not dependent on whether or not its legal. Age/sex/race are the more common aspects of discrimination, but it is not limited to what the law is based on. The person you quoted said it's discrimination, which it is, the only difference being that a DO is not a protected class for good/obvious reason.

"treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit"

Is that not exactly what this is? Making a determination about the quality of an applicant based off of their degree, rather than their own individual merits?

That said, I do agree with your premise in that in choosing to become a DO (unlike not choosing to be male, black, whatever) makes the case for arguing against discriminatory practices pretty weak. We chose to go to a school that is considered inferior, and we'll have to live with the consequences. It might suck, and I hate the idea that I have to struggle through all of this crap just to be considered inferior, but that's life. I can only move forward and warn every premed I know to take college more seriously because there is nothing worse than drowning in keeping up with med school lectures, only to sit in a lab for 2 hours learning about where a person should hug their shoulders while you press on their transverse processes.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

"U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information (added in 2008)."

Maybe you should start arguing that DO is a religion 😏

I think op was using the more general definition of discrimination there. I would love to see someone argue that OMM is a religious practice.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I'd be willing to bet DOs are more willing to work in family med and "undeserved" populations. Undeserved is another one of those catchy words that is overused.

More willing/Forced due to exorbitant loans and lack of residencies, potato/potatoe right?

I think op was using the more general definition of discrimination there. I would love to see someone argue that OMM is a religious practice.

I don't know how you could argue it isn't. Absolutely every true believer (and I mean OMM faculty) thinks OMM is more than just techniques. Believing in something in the absence of any tangible evidence sounds an awful lot like a faith, and every believer in cranial is undoubtedly engaged in one of the dumbest religions of all time.

 

[Stagg737]

"U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on the following nine protected classes: sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information (added in 2008)."

Maybe you should start arguing that DO is a religion 😏

I wasn't referring to the legal definition of discrimination, as ACGME guidelines are not law anyway. I'm fine with plenty of discrimination in the process based on aspects measuring merit or even "fit" for programs. I just think discriminating solely based on letters is generally idiotic. And yes, I know that prestige and school name matter and that's just the reality of it, doesn't change how stupid it is though.

More willing/Forced due to exorbitant loans and lack of residencies, potato/potatoe right?

I don't know how you could argue it isn't. Absolutely every true believer (and I mean OMM faculty) thinks OMM is more than just techniques. Believing in something in the absence of any tangible evidence sounds an awful lot like a faith, and every believer in cranial is undoubtedly engaged in one of the dumbest religions of all time.

Idk. I had one OMM faculty member who was very highly focused on the techniques with research backing them up (which aren't many) and openly stated in class that he thought several techniques were complete BS but that we just had to learn them for boards (cranial, Chapman's points, probably some other I've blocked out since graduating). He also mostly advocated for OMM as an adjunctive treatment and not primary other than very specific instances. There are plenty of "true believers" whose beliefs border more on blind faith than actual evidence (though they all have plenty of anecdotes), but there are also those legitimately trying to forward the field with evidence. It's unfortunate that those individuals don't seem to get the resources for legitimate research that they should.

 

[Goro]

I think op was using the more general definition of discrimination there. I would love to see someone argue that OMM is a religious practice.

For some of my DO colleagues in the OMM/OMT Dep't, it definitely is a belief system. I especially hate it when they try to dodge out of testing technique X for clinical issue Y (which is how you do Science) by claiming that "every patient is unique".

The OP's post was ridiculous, of course. The way to break open doors is to network, be steps ahead of MD candidates and blow people away in judiciously chosen audition rotations.

And have COCA force the weakest schools to strengthen their clinical education. This is what is harming graduates' chances at matching into good programs. The days of the Cult of Still are over.

 

[Stagg737]

For some of my DO colleagues in the OMM/OMT Dep't, it definitely is a belief system. I especially hate it when they try to dodge out of testing technique X for clinical issue Y (which is how you do Science) by claiming that "every patient is unique".

The OP's post was ridiculous, of course. The way to break open doors is to network, be steps ahead of MD candidates and blow people away in judiciously chosen audition rotations.

And have COCA force the weakest schools to strengthen their clinical education. This is what is harming graduates' chances at matching into good programs. The days of the Cult of Still are over.

The days of it being a cult have been gone for years. It's officially the Bone Wizard Society now.

 

[Scrubs101]

This whole thread reminds me of this gem of an article.
Why U.S. Healthcare System Needs More Foreign Medical Grads, As Told By A Millennial Med Student | HuffPost

If it includes the word "millennial" in the title i usually assume its a trash article or click bait for grandparents on facebook. Seems like my methods check out here.

Edit: To add something to the post and not just make a snarky comment. No they shouldnt be penalized. The "DO filter" that I've heard about should be removed though, and if no DOs make the step/research/letter-from-influential-whoever/top20medschool/etc screen then they shouldnt have to take them. PD have always discriminated based on prestige of school, and while I don't like it it's not discrimination. We choose to go to DO schools, work your arse off, get a sick step score, do research, kiss some butt, do whatever your competition is doing and more. Make it so they can't say no, though some probably still will but I dont think they should be legally binded to it.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Just to clarify for OP. If I was a DO trying to get into a highly competitive residency at a high end place like thoracic surgery at Johns Hopkins or something. And I also had the power to force them to take me. Well of course I’d support this kind of initiative. Even if it were my friend trying to get in I would. Just depends on where you stand I guess. Most DOs may be ok with a so so residency. Which is prolly why they ended up DOs.

 

[UnoMas]

Sack up and compete or get out of the way. Doing **** like this will only devalue your hardwork and increase the animosity against DO. "Oh you are a DO and you are at MGH, hmmm must be the new law."

I admit that I totally judge a residency program by the number of DO/IMG they have in their class and I can't be the only one. Not their quality of training but just the overall impression. There gotta be something undesirable about a program which turns the better applicants away and most of the time I would be right.

You knew this coming in, now you gotta deal with it coming out. Shoulda taken that extra year to repair that GPA/retake the MCAT or god-forbid not drank the 'DO is more holistic' koolaids

 

[atomheart]

More competitive residencies will go to the hot shot MDs. And this is even true in the MD world, better MD school = better connections for better residency. But there are still undersirable positions just waiting to be filled. If the US healthcare system does intend on becoming cheaper and yet at the same time granting more access to providers MDs are clearly not the answer. DOs will have a leg in the game if for no other reason, because they can produce faster.

Uber only exists because people/investors are will to take a chance on a random stranger ferrying people than a licensed regulated cab driver. Lower standards for higher access. But cab drivers will always exist because they have roots in the business and because wealthy people and people with higher standards for their travel will take a cab.

A Closer Look at the 2018 NRMP Match Results
A total of 30,489 PGY-1 positions were offered in all medical specialties in the 2018 NRMP Match, and 29,249 were filled. Of those, 17,740 were filled with seniors in Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME)-accredited U.S. schools of medicine (MD-granting), 3,771 were filled with seniors or graduates of U.S. osteopathic colleges of medicine (DO-granting), and 668 were filled with previous graduates of U.S. MD-granting schools.

The analogy you're trying to use doesn't make any sense. MDs are not cabs as DOs are to Uber. Physicians are definitely not cabs as midlevels are to ubers... often a midlevel is a scooter with a broken GPS that either arrives unsafely or calls an Uber when it can't figure out where the patient is going. The midlevel in this analogy also produces at a faster rate given their foregoing of medical school and residency.

The idea that numbers rule the discussion is misinformed. If DOs far outnumbered MDs it wouldn't mean anything unless they were also involved in the residency interview and ranking process, and very few DOs hold positions at prestigious programs. Even when they are, there is no guarantee. For example, the PD of the Emory anesthesiology residency is a DO, yet that program may never accept a DO resident. I hope to one day hold an academic position and help aspiring applicants meet their goals, but I'd be lying to myself if I said I wouldn't think twice about taking just any DO, knowing what I know about some of my classmates and their progression. That may be how I'm thought of at these interviews: I know for sure that many residencies are suspicious of any student trained outside of their own med school program as there is no guarantee of their training. Medicine should not be a democracy where all voices are held equal, nor should it be a free market, because you will find very quickly that the products will diminish in quality.

I guess my point in bringing midlevels into this bypasses your point about raw numbers. I said it because the ACGME, COCA, LCME...every group pretending to associate itself with the betterment of physicians has a responsibility to follow standards and train effective physicians, no matter where those physicians come from, and the alternative poses a threat to the safety of our medical system. It is much more important to me that they realize that the overall unification of physicians is more valuable than establishing a mote of prestige in a small program at a small part of the country for a short period of time, and recognize that regardless of initials or location of medical schooling there is a common appreciation of standards of training. The future of physicians and residencies trends toward a failure of specialties to resolve their conflicts...a failure to unify against bigger threats to the profession like hospital administrators and the popular narrative of neutering medical licensure to save money at the cost of safety. Our midlevel "counterparts" are inclined to believe the process is democratic and a free market system.

 

[MrTaco92]

Would you actually wanna fight your way into a 3-5 year program where you know you won't actually be welcome though?

 

[Stagg737]

Sack up and compete or get out of the way. Doing **** like this will only devalue your hardwork and increase the animosity against DO. "Oh you are a DO and you are at MGH, hmmm must be the new law."

I admit that I totally judge a residency program by the number of DO/IMG they have in their class and I can't be the only one. Not their quality of training but just the overall impression. There gotta be something undesirable about a program which turns the better applicants away and most of the time I would be right.

You knew this coming in, now you gotta deal with it coming out. Shoulda taken that extra year to repair that GPA/retake the MCAT or god-forbid not drank the 'DO is more holistic' koolaids

Partially agree, but I also think you're oversimplifying things. The smartest guy I've ever met got straight D's his freshman year of UG and had to drop out because of personal stuff going on with his parents. He started at a state school the following year and ended up with something like a 3.9. Applied to a ton of med schools and got 0 acceptances. Re-applied and same thing happened. Started a career in research and several years later reapplied after completing a master's (with me) and is now a resident at one of the top programs in his field. He could have gotten into a DO school, but the path he wanted to pursue basically required an MD (physician-scientist at an elite residency). It's not always as simple as just "take an extra year to repair that GPA", even when the reason for that crappy GPA is through no fault of the individual.

If this guy had gone to a DO school, he still would have been smarter than 99% of all physicians out there but wouldn't have had a chance at most programs that would allow him to pursue the path he wanted. He tried to repair his GPA and still wasn't given the shot. I'm glad he made it, as he'll be a greater asset to the medical community than the vast majority of physicians, but he had to wait almost a decade to get there. Same can be said for many others, so not as simple as you're implying with your last statement.

 

[UnoMas]

Partially agree, but I also think you're oversimplifying things. The smartest guy I've ever met got straight D's his freshman year of UG and had to drop out because of personal stuff going on with his parents. He started at a state school the following year and ended up with something like a 3.9. Applied to a ton of med schools and got 0 acceptances. Re-applied and same thing happened. Started a career in research and several years later reapplied after completing a master's (with me) and is now a resident at one of the top programs in his field. He could have gotten into a DO school, but the path he wanted to pursue basically required an MD (physician-scientist at an elite residency). It's not always as simple as just "take an extra year to repair that GPA", even when the reason for that crappy GPA is through no fault of the individual.

If this guy had gone to a DO school, he still would have been smarter than 99% of all physicians out there but wouldn't have had a chance at most programs that would allow him to pursue the path he wanted. He tried to repair his GPA and still wasn't given the shot. I'm glad he made it, as he'll be a greater asset to the medical community than the vast majority of physicians, but he had to wait almost a decade to get there. Same can be said for many others, so not as simple as you're implying with your last statement.

Good he earned it! His situation would have been easily remedied by a high-linkage post-bacc at an MD school if his crappy GPA was truly no fault of his own (high mcat, crap gpa, interesting story-the triad). Don't see how it would take him a decade but it worked out for him. Gratz! The majority of the time it's just that GPA/research/MCAT. The exceptional stories are well, exceptional.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The analogy you're trying to use doesn't make any sense. MDs are not cabs as DOs are to Uber. Physicians are definitely not cabs as midlevels are to ubers... often a midlevel is a scooter with a broken GPS that either arrives unsafely or calls an Uber when it can't figure out where the patient is going. The midlevel in this analogy also produces at a faster rate given their foregoing of medical school and residency.

The idea that numbers rule the discussion is misinformed. If DOs far outnumbered MDs it wouldn't mean anything unless they were also involved in the residency interview and ranking process, and very few DOs hold positions at prestigious programs. Even when they are, there is no guarantee. For example, the PD of the Emory anesthesiology residency is a DO, yet that program may never accept a DO resident. I hope to one day hold an academic position and help aspiring applicants meet their goals, but I'd be lying to myself if I said I wouldn't think twice about taking just any DO, knowing what I know about some of my classmates and their progression. That may be how I'm thought of at these interviews: I know for sure that many residencies are suspicious of any student trained outside of their own med school program as there is no guarantee of their training. Medicine should not be a democracy where all voices are held equal, nor should it be a free market, because you will find very quickly that the products will diminish in quality.

I guess my point in bringing midlevels into this bypasses your point about raw numbers. I said it because the ACGME, COCA, LCME...every group pretending to associate itself with the betterment of physicians has a responsibility to follow standards and train effective physicians, no matter where those physicians come from, and the alternative poses a threat to the safety of our medical system. It is much more important to me that they realize that the overall unification of physicians is more valuable than establishing a mote of prestige in a small program at a small part of the country for a short period of time, and recognize that regardless of initials or location of medical schooling there is a common appreciation of standards of training. The future of physicians and residencies trends toward a failure of specialties to resolve their conflicts...a failure to unify against bigger threats to the profession like hospital administrators and the popular narrative of neutering medical licensure to save money at the cost of safety. Our midlevel "counterparts" are inclined to believe the process is democratic and a free market system.

LOL! I laughed so hard at the red. You have made my night.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

The idea that numbers rule the discussion is misinformed. If DOs far outnumbered MDs it wouldn't mean anything unless they were also involved in the residency interview and ranking process, and very few DOs hold positions at prestigious programs. Even when they are, there is no guarantee. For example, the PD of the Emory anesthesiology residency is a DO, yet that program may never accept a DO resident. I hope to one day hold an academic position and help aspiring applicants meet their goals, but I'd be lying to myself if I said I wouldn't think twice about taking just any DO, knowing what I know about some of my classmates and their progression.

This is interesting. I too know several PDs who are also DOs. They would probably rather sell one of their kidneys before taking a DO into their program. I always wondered why.