perio....back for more

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didn't have a chance to respond. i'm a perio resident. i do agree that the residency can be shortened. i think 1.5-2 years would do the trick if you are at a program with great exposure. i think the soft tissue grafting takes a while to get good at. i'm not gonna tell you, but many periodontists will tell you that GPs doing perio sx cannot handle complications of a ailing or failing sx. i'm sure there are many GPs that do better perio sx than some periodontists. there are also some GPs that place bridges on teeth that move up and down in their alveoli. i enjoy doing these little gingival and bone surgeries. i wish perio was a little broader scope sometimes. i would like to do larger autogenous bone grafts, but haven't had the chance yet. we spend lots of time reading perio and implant literature. you obviously get out of it what you put in. they are all 3 years now, probably so that residents can learn more about implants and maybe do more research. i like some of what omfs does, but i was never interested in orthognathics or fixin' broken jaws and all the other stuff omfs does, plus i wouldn't have the physical stamina to complete an oral sx program even if i had the interest. so far it's satisfying. of course it has limitations, but for the most part i enjoy what i'm doing. another perk is that i don't have to wake up and have to take denture impressions and bend RPD prongs around. i'd much rather do root planing, but the flaps, grafts and implants are the funnest part of the specialty.i don't know what the future of the specialty holds. in 20 years it will be very different or maybe it won't exist. i'm living in the moment right now.

 

[muberrymolar]

didn't have a chance to respond. i'm a perio resident. i do agree that the residency can be shortened. i think 1.5-2 years would do the trick if you are at a program with great exposure. i think the soft tissue grafting takes a while to get good at. i'm not gonna tell you, but many periodontists will tell you that GPs doing perio sx cannot handle complications of a ailing or failing sx. i'm sure there are many GPs that do better perio sx than some periodontists. there are also some GPs that place bridges on teeth that move up and down in their alveoli. i enjoy doing these little gingival and bone surgeries. i wish perio was a little broader scope sometimes. i would like to do larger autogenous bone grafts, but haven't had the chance yet. we spend lots of time reading perio and implant literature. you obviously get out of it what you put in. they are all 3 years now, probably so that residents can learn more about implants and maybe do more research. i like some of what omfs does, but i was never interested in orthognathics or fixin' broken jaws and all the other stuff omfs does, plus i wouldn't have the physical stamina to complete an oral sx program even if i had the interest. so far it's satisfying. of course it has limitations, but for the most part i enjoy what i'm doing. another perk is that i don't have to wake up and have to take denture impressions and bend RPD prongs around. i'd much rather do root planing, but the flaps, grafts and implants are the funnest part of the specialty.i don't know what the future of the specialty holds. in 20 years it will be very different or maybe it won't exist. i'm living in the moment right now.

Thanks for your imput,i was really shocked that others will spoof my thread and the moderators will actually close the thread denying us the oppourtunity of beign enlightened.
Perio is a dying specialty and needs to be reinvented, in my opinion OMFS should be split into two .....oral surgery and craniomaxifocial surgery.
Oral surgery should be a 4 year program encompassing the bread and butter of OMFS and much of the present perio.
craniomaxillofacial surgery should be a 6 year/MD program encompassing hardcore omfs.
There should be no perio specialty
General dentists should be doing crown lengthening

 

[fightingspirit]

Thanks for your imput,i was really shocked that others will spoof my thread and the moderators will actually close the thread denying us the oppourtunity of beign enlightened.
Perio is a dying specialty and needs to be reinvented, in my opinion OMFS should be split into two .....oral surgery and craniomaxifocial surgery.
Oral surgery should be a 4 year program encompassing the bread and butter of OMFS and much of the present perio.
craniomaxillofacial surgery should be a 6 year/MD program encompassing hardcore omfs.
There should be no perio specialty
General dentists should be doing crown lengthening

very interesting take on the subject. it would be interesting to read what toofache and esclavo have to say about that. the word "perio" excites esclavo. if this happens though, how many will be interested in the 6 year program??? i cannot imagine many....

 

[EuroOMFS]

in my opinion OMFS should be split into two .....oral surgery and craniomaxifocial surgery.
Oral surgery should be a 4 year program encompassing the bread and butter of OMFS and much of the present perio.
craniomaxillofacial surgery should be a 6 year/MD program encompassing hardcore omfs.

Actually, this is the case in many countries, Oral surgeons (single degree) do "bread and butter" OS, like wisdom teeth, implants, minor bone graft etc. Maxillofacial surgeons (DDS+MD) do the "big stuff", facial fractures, orthognathic surgery, major bone grafts, TMJ surgery etc. Swiss, Germany and England come to mind. And believe me, these specialities aren't always friends with each other.

Although, I don't think periodontal surgery/treatment is a part of the shorter, single-degree training.

There should be no perio specialty
General dentists should be doing crown lengthening

I'm glad there is a perio speciality. Otherwise, OMSs would drown in referrals for surgical periodontal treatment.

 

[EuroOMFS]

if this happens though, how many will be interested in the 6 year program??? i cannot imagine many....

Pulling thirds and placing implants may only require the shorter training pathway, but thankfully not everyone is only thinking money when they choose a profession. The 6 years CMFS training would be infinetly more interesting and gratifying. I think many would choose that route.

 

[fightingspirit]

Pulling thirds and placing implants may only require the shorter training pathway, but thankfully not everyone is only thinking money when they choose a profession. The 6 years CMFS training would be infinetly more interesting and gratifying. I think many would choose that route.

true enough

 

[Jediwendell]

i'm not gonna tell you, but many periodontists will tell you that GPs doing perio sx cannot handle complications of a ailing or failing sx.

That is really why we have any specialists. The procedures in any specialty really aren't that hard, it is how you handle it when things start going wrong.

My take on the perio/OMS thing is that there should be a system like in Europe, with Perio being integrated into four year "oral surgery" programs. The scope of intraoral surgery is so close between the two specialties that there is no need for both types of specialists. Craniofacial should be left to those who are well trained to do it, however.

 

[north2southOMFS]

i agree with luke skywalker above me. Although i would still probably do the longer more involved residency for the experience and enjoyment, but still end up mostly doing dentoalveolar when i finished.

 

[ip]

I'm a perio resident too and I agree with pretty much all you guys. Mine is a combined program so my perio portion is shortened, thankfully. Perio is currently going through either a major overhaul or a crisis. There's a clash between old school (save it) and new school (pull it) and the feeling from the old school is that saving teeth is harder to do and less profitable therefore if you follow implants too closely you're only there for the ease and $$.

I do agree that separation of oral & maxillofacial sx and inclusion of perio into the former is the way to go. Most recent perio grads focus mainly on implants & hard/soft tissue grafting. Most OMS's focus on 3rds & hard tissue grafting. How hard would it be to exchange knowledge on 3rds and soft tissue grafting?

Backaction, what program are you at? I'm surprised to hear that you don't do much autogenous grafting. You can't be building a ridge in Bio-Oss, can you??

 

[vorosvirag]

I'm proud of everyone! This discussion is a very useful one w/o the nonsense insults that often accompany discussions about perio.

 

[DDS_1_2007]

Actually, this is the case in many countries, Oral surgeons (single degree) do "bread and butter" OS, like wisdom teeth, implants, minor bone graft etc. Maxillofacial surgeons (DDS+MD) do the "big stuff", facial fractures, orthognathic surgery, major bone grafts, TMJ surgery etc. Swiss, Germany and England come to mind. And believe me, these specialities aren't always friends with each other.

I am applying for both 4 and 6 year OMFS programs. does the type of practice necessarily need to be an issue of degree? Everything you mentioned I have seen being done by both single degree and MD OMFS. Any advice before Match lists are due would be appreciated.

 

[north2southOMFS]

I'm proud of everyone! This discussion is a very useful one w/o the nonsense insults that often accompany discussions about perio.

Give it time.

 

[vorosvirag]

I've been around SDN long enough to see the truth in your response, north2south. A little time is all we need before the inevitable eruption.

 

[nacure]

There should be no perio specialty
General dentists should be doing crown lengthening

Hello I'm from South Korea.
At present, I'm GP. but, I'm going to go U.S.A. and major in pros.
In Korea, perio is one of the most competitive specialty.
Needless to say, no one can beat periodontist in periodontal tissue management, even oral surgeon.
The periodontium is quite different from other tissues.

The land is very small and the population density is very high here in korea.
Dental hospitals and clinics are all around. (Some buildings have two or more dental clinics in the same floor.)
They are very close to every patients.
So, patients can choose dental clinics without restriction of distance.

In this situation, just can do or not is meaningless.
Only someone who excels in the area can survive.
So, although GPs should be doing crown lengthening, implant tx etc., periodontists still hold a dominant position.

In some respect, they are superior to oral surgeons on doing implant tx.
For esthetics, soft tissue management is one of the most significant factors.
As I mentioned above, periodontists are the best in that area.

 

[north2southOMFS]

In some respect, they are superior to oral surgeons on doing implant tx.

Oh yah. I just think your a kim jong il spy sent here by the periodontists to try and infiltrate our dental health care system and plant obnoxious and false ideas into poor dental students heads.

 

[vorosvirag]

Hello I'm from South Korea.
At present, I'm GP. but, I'm going to go U.S.A. and major in pros.
In Korea, perio is one of the most competitive specialty.
Needless to say, no one can beat periodontist in periodontal tissue management, even oral surgeon.
The periodontium is quite different from other tissues.

In some respect, they are superior to oral surgeons on doing implant tx.
For esthetics, soft tissue management is one of the most significant factors.
As I mentioned above, periodontists are the best in that area.

Pros, huh? Let's just say in the Pros is almost the most competitive specialty in the U.S. It's 2nd or 3rd or something. OK. I'm lying. It's near the bottom of the list. That doesn't mean you won't get good training, nacure. It does mean, however, that few Americans care to apply to that specialty. I'll allow Dr. Phan and others articulate the reasons behind that phenomenon (very few American applicants).

Periodontists may have superiority in South Korea in the implant arena. My experience from dental school in the U.S. is that the surgeons are both efficient and effective at placing implants. Periodontists, on the other hand, took forever and looked like a circus act. Perio doesn't even take their own call. I wouldn't call that superiority.

Again, I have not gone into private practice yet. However, I can't imagine private-practice periodontists are dominating the surgeons. At least, not as alleged in South Korea. After all, residents become private practicioners. I doubt the perio residents I knew during dental school (as well as now in residency) suddenly transform into hulking implant superstars overnight and run the surgeons out of town.

 

[GatorDMD]

Oh yah. I just think your a kim jong il spy sent here by the periodontists to try and infiltrate our dental health care system and plant obnoxious and false ideas into poor dental students heads.

down with the "Commie" spy

 

[schrottypie]

Hello I'm from South Korea.
At present, I'm GP. but, I'm going to go U.S.A. and major in pros.
In Korea, perio is one of the most competitive specialty.
Needless to say, no one can beat periodontist in periodontal tissue management, even oral surgeon.
The periodontium is quite different from other tissues.

The land is very small and the population density is very high here in korea.
Dental hospitals and clinics are all around. (Some buildings have two or more dental clinics in the same floor.)
They are very close to every patients.
So, patients can choose dental clinics without restriction of distance.

In this situation, just can do or not is meaningless.
Only someone who excels in the area can survive.
So, although GPs should be doing crown lengthening, implant tx etc., periodontists still hold a dominant position.

In some respect, they are superior to oral surgeons on doing implant tx.
For esthetics, soft tissue management is one of the most significant factors.
As I mentioned above, periodontists are the best in that area.

Periodontal specialty also enjoys much success.

 

[ip]

Pros, huh? Let's just say in the Pros is almost the most competitive specialty in the U.S. It's 2nd or 3rd or something. OK. I'm lying. It's near the bottom of the list. That doesn't mean you won't get good training, nacure. It does mean, however, that few Americans care to apply to that specialty. I'll allow Dr. Phan and others articulate the reasons behind that phenomenon (very few American applicants).

Periodontists may have superiority in South Korea in the implant arena. My experience from dental school in the U.S. is that the surgeons are both efficient and effective at placing implants. Periodontists, on the other hand, took forever and looked like a circus act. Perio doesn't even take their own call. I wouldn't call that superiority.

Again, I have not gone into private practice yet. However, I can't imagine private-practice periodontists are dominating the surgeons. At least, not as alleged in South Korea. After all, residents become private practicioners. I doubt the perio residents I knew during dental school (as well as now in residency) suddenly transform into hulking implant superstars overnight and run the surgeons out of town.

At what school do perio residents not take their own call? Who takes it, pedo? LOL. I don't blame you for having a bad taste for perio in that case, that's pathetic. But you need to realize that not all perio depts are alike. I'll bash my program with the best of them but at least we take our own call. Jeez.

FWIW I've seen the Millenium Reseach Group's reports on implants in the US and yes, perio does place more than OMS. I'll try to find it but it's in a pile of papers somewhere...

 

[S Files]

i don't agree at all w/ dividing up omfs in such a matter. firstly b/c many of the craniofacial omfs's i know didn't know they wanted to pursue that route until halfway thru omfs training. also, it's good to have that exposure even the proposed 4 yr people will benefit from and should know that stuff. it's part of the extended scope that omfs has worked hard to include as their "territory" so should keep it that way. also, such a method of training is too hard to implement. who's to say what programs offer what - especially since programs can change over the course of 15-20 years. not practical. not realistic.
secondly, who do gp's refer the juvenille / aggressive perio cases to? most omfs i know are not into that stuff at all. so i mean perio does have a role - perio disease, gingival grafting, and the more difficult crown lengthening cases. and despite the bashing (including myself), there is some pretty good perio systemic relationship research out there indicating the need to carefully monitor adult perio cases. i say it's simple, we don't need as many periodontists out there right now. eliminate 50% of the programs and graduate a number more appropriate to what's needed. so now we don't have perio's trying to take out 3rd molars any more!

 

[nacure]

Oh yah. I just think your a kim jong il spy sent here by the periodontists to try and infiltrate our dental health care system and plant obnoxious and false ideas into poor dental students heads.

Thank you. The most famous replyer in SDN.

Remember.. kim jung il is the king(actually not a king but almost a king) of "north" Korea. and I'm from south Korea.

I told truth. perio was not competitive 10 years ago in Korea. but after apperance of implant it has been rising up. It became one of the most competitive specialties in Korea.

 

[GatorDMD]

At what school do perio residents not take their own call? Who takes it, pedo? LOL. I don't blame you for having a bad taste for perio in that case, that's pathetic. But you need to realize that not all perio depts are alike. I'll bash my program with the best of them but at least we take our own call. Jeez.

FWIW I've seen the Millenium Reseach Group's reports on implants in the US and yes, perio does place more than OMS. I'll try to find it but it's in a pile of papers somewhere...

i dont understand how perio places more implants and still averages less income than all specialties. They seem pretty lucrative to me. Must be more periodontists out in general so as a whole they place more implants...not necessarily more per clinician. I think an average OMS places more than a average periodontist. hmmm. anyways, i am not in this business to be a Tooth N Titanium surgeon... 😎 I am here to rip heads off and put them back together.

 

[ip]

i dont understand how perio places more implants and still averages less income than all specialties. They seem pretty lucrative to me. Must be more periodontists out in general so as a whole they place more implants...not necessarily more per clinician. I think an average OMS places more than a average periodontist. hmmm. anyways, i am not in this business to be a Tooth N Titanium surgeon... 😎 I am here to rip heads off and put them back together.

I think that you hit the nail. The income rankings cover ALL perio's. And like I said before, there are still a lot of old school guys who either never got into implants or believe that the last 2mm of attachment can be maintained well if the pt brushes 6x/day and gets maintenance 12x/year. Believe me, it amazes me how many folks there are like that. It's almost like they feel righteous by NOT recommending the expensive therapy.

The vast majority of perios that have graduated within the past 10 years are placing alot of implants. The ones I speak with state that implants & related sx's cover ~80-90% of their practice. $3-400k/year net is what I'm told. And yeah, I saw the numbers of 2 of them. One was over 400k. There is a big shift going on now.

 

[vorosvirag]

At what school do perio residents not take their own call? Who takes it, pedo? LOL. I don't blame you for having a bad taste for perio in that case, that's pathetic. But you need to realize that not all perio depts are alike. I'll bash my program with the best of them but at least we take our own call. Jeez.

FWIW I've seen the Millenium Reseach Group's reports on implants in the US and yes, perio does place more than OMS. I'll try to find it but it's in a pile of papers somewhere...

It's not important where that happens. To retain anonymity, I'll leave the school out. The surgery residents take their call. For that and other reasons, the periodontists aren't looked so favorably upon by their surgery colleagues.

That's interesting that perio may do more. How many periodontists and oral surgeons are there in the U.S.?

 

[ip]

It's not important where that happens. To retain anonymity, I'll leave the school out. The surgery residents take their call. For that and other reasons, the periodontists aren't looked so favorably upon by their surgery colleagues.

That's interesting that perio may do more. How many periodontists and oral surgeons are there in the U.S.?

The perios at your school shouldn't be looked upon favorably in that situation. Completely ridiculous.

 

[GatorDMD]

I think that you hit the nail. The income rankings cover ALL perio's. And like I said before, there are still a lot of old school guys who either never got into implants or believe that the last 2mm of attachment can be maintained well if the pt brushes 6x/day and gets maintenance 12x/year. Believe me, it amazes me how many folks there are like that. It's almost like they feel righteous by NOT recommending the expensive therapy.

The vast majority of perios that have graduated within the past 10 years are placing alot of implants. The ones I speak with state that implants & related sx's cover ~80-90% of their practice. $3-400k/year net is what I'm told. And yeah, I saw the numbers of 2 of them. One was over 400k. There is a big shift going on now.

i guess perio is coming up.🙄 so if they focus 90% on implants arent they doing a disservice to their patients by not performing all the other traditional perio stuff. so they dont do SRP, ST surgery, bone grafts, perio chips, etc? I have a friend who is a periodontist and year 1 he did a fair amount of implants but he told me he netted under 200k like 170-180k and that is around the average. i guess some are doing better than others. 😴 Rock on.👍

 

[ip]

i guess perio is coming up.🙄 so if they focus 90% on implants arent they doing a disservice to their patients by not performing all the other traditional perio stuff. so they dont do SRP, ST surgery, bone grafts, perio chips, etc? I have a friend who is a periodontist and year 1 he did a fair amount of implants but he told me he netted under 200k like 170-180k and that is around the average. i guess some are doing better than others. 😴 Rock on.👍

A disservice? I guess everyone practices what they want to. 180k net for first year out isn't bad. One of my buds who graduated perio in 99 says he made 105k his first year out but increased by 100k/year for the next 3 years. There's plenty for all of us. 👍

 

[nacure]

Pros, huh? Let's just say in the Pros is almost the most competitive specialty in the U.S. It's 2nd or 3rd or something. OK. I'm lying. It's near the bottom of the list. That doesn't mean you won't get good training, nacure. It does mean, however, that few Americans care to apply to that specialty. I'll allow Dr. Phan and others articulate the reasons behind that phenomenon (very few American applicants).

Periodontists may have superiority in South Korea in the implant arena. My experience from dental school in the U.S. is that the surgeons are both efficient and effective at placing implants. Periodontists, on the other hand, took forever and looked like a circus act. Perio doesn't even take their own call. I wouldn't call that superiority.

Again, I have not gone into private practice yet. However, I can't imagine private-practice periodontists are dominating the surgeons. At least, not as alleged in South Korea. After all, residents become private practicioners. I doubt the perio residents I knew during dental school (as well as now in residency) suddenly transform into hulking implant superstars overnight and run the surgeons out of town.

I know pros is near the bottom of the list.
One of SDN told as below
endo>ortho>omfs>pedo>perio>pros>omfrad=oralpath

But in Korea..
ortho=perio=pros>endo>omfs=pedo>omfrad>oralpath
And the positions are being changed.
omfs obviously deserves to be praised.
But in Korea the government has a significant effect on tx fee.
So, omfs can't get an enough rewards for their efforts.

Preference is always being changed with influence of situation.
Some dacades ago prosthodontics dominated dentistry even in the U.S.A.
Think about the reason why I mentioned about situation of korean dental society, high population density, acess to dental clinics, etc.

I think low preference hardly can be a reason for closing the specialty.

All practical specialties has their unique role.
Doing Implant tx as an instance.
periodontal tissue(especially gingival tissue) management - perio
designing of tx, decision of location and angulation etc. - pros
surgery procedure - omfs, perio
...
bone graft from the sites other than oral cavity- omfs

 

[IcedOMFS]

I told truth. perio was not competitive 10 years ago in Korea. but after apperance of implant it has been rising up. It became one of the most competitive specialties in Korea.

So.... What you're saying, is that in Korea, you not only don't know how to make good cars, but also can't pick the right specialty?

 

[GatorDMD]

A disservice? I guess everyone practices what they want to. 180k net for first year out isn't bad. One of my buds who graduated perio in 99 says he made 105k his first year out but increased by 100k/year for the next 3 years. There's plenty for all of us. 👍

real good money. I expect to make 150k 5-10 years out of residency. Maybe I will go back to perio after my 6 years is up😉

ps... when i was a predent and shadowing a perio the older dr. told me that i should go to perio bc they make a killing. I said how much and he said up to btw 175-190k but not right out... after many years of hard work😕 glad to see it is better than that for you folks these days... (btw he did tons of implants).

 

[GatorDMD]

So.... What you're saying, is that in Korea, you not only don't know how to make good cars, but also can't pick the right specialty?

that's for damn sure.

 

[GatorDMD]

I know pros is near the bottom of the list.
One of SDN told as below
endo>ortho>omfs>pedo>perio>pros>omfrad=oralpath

perio is gaining on us

 

[nacure]

So.... What you're saying, is that in Korea, you not only don't know how to make good cars, but also can't pick the right specialty?

Are there any specialties that are not right?

I said all specialties have their roles. 🙂

 

[vorosvirag]

Is there any specialties that are not right?

I said all specialties have their roles. 🙂

I don't believe in absolute ranks. I think it is safe to generalize into tiers, though. I would argue that ortho, surg, and endo are in the first group. I'd put Perio and Pedo are in the 2nd tier. Pros may be alone in the 3rd. Oral Path, Radiology, and the others are in the 4th or w/o a tier.

Even w/ these groupings, it's a complex process to tease out differences. Contrasting specialties is not comparing apples to apples.

What makes the specialty a top-tier one? Both subjective and objective elements exist. Amount of $ the specialist makes on average? Amount of $ made per hour worked? Number of applicants to the specialty? Number of "quality" applicants? Who defines "quality?" How many years of experience might it take to get in? Future overhead?

So, in South Korea periodontists make more $ than surgeons? That may explain why the specialty is more highly sought after.

 

[NYUCD2010]

Oh yah. I just think your a kim jong il spy sent here by the periodontists to try and infiltrate our dental health care system and plant obnoxious and false ideas into poor dental students heads.

I figure the life of an OMFS resident necessitates humor, sarcasm, criticality, and even a health dosage of bitter cynicism. Since I am far removed from experiencing it myself (I am currently a D1 with aspirations for OMFS), I obviously can't make any sweeping generalizations about the residents based on SDN.

As a Korean-American, I actually find the above comment by north2south (and the other comment regarding Korea's lack of skill in carmaking) to be silly, somewhat ridiculous, but good for a chuckle. I know even middle school kids know the difference between South and North Korea... no one would take offense to the above joke, as seen by nacure's good-natured responses so far. 😀

Having said that, however, I often wonder why the residents (at least most on SDN) enjoy antagonizing other specialties so much.

Does "OMFS culture" produce a sense of superiority (perhaps well-deserved) for all residents? I would like the opinion of those in the know -- do you find most of your colleagues (and yourself included) to be cynical, critical, sarcastic... is it somehow due to the rigorous work that's involved? Or is this just characteristic of the OMFS residents in the SDN sampling?

 

[Stelon]

I would argue that ortho, surg, and endo are in the first group. I'd put Perio and Pedo are in the 2nd tier. Pros may be alone in the 3rd. Oral Path, Radiology, and the others are in the 4th or w/o a tier.

Interesting.

 

[GatorDMD]

I figure the life of an OMFS resident necessitates humor, sarcasm, criticality, and even a health dosage of bitter cynicism. Since I am far removed from experiencing it myself (I am currently a D1 with aspirations for OMFS), I obviously can't make any sweeping generalizations about the residents based on SDN.

As a Korean-American, I actually find the above comment by north2south (and the other comment regarding Korea's lack of skill in carmaking) to be silly, somewhat ridiculous, but good for a chuckle. I know even middle school kids know the difference between South and North Korea... no one would take offense to the above joke, as seen by nacure's good-natured responses so far. 😀

Having said that, however, I often wonder why the residents (at least most on SDN) enjoy antagonizing other specialties so much.

Does "OMFS culture" produce a sense of superiority (perhaps well-deserved) for all residents? I would like the opinion of those in the know -- do you find most of your colleagues (and yourself included) to be cynical, critical, sarcastic... is it somehow due to the rigorous work that's involved? Or is this just characteristic of the OMFS residents in the SDN sampling?

OMFS is NUMBER ONE BABY!!!!

 

[scalpel2008]

I figure the life of an OMFS resident necessitates humor, sarcasm, criticality, and even a health dosage of bitter cynicism. Since I am far removed from experiencing it myself (I am currently a D1 with aspirations for OMFS), I obviously can't make any sweeping generalizations about the residents based on SDN.

As a Korean-American, I actually find the above comment by north2south (and the other comment regarding Korea's lack of skill in carmaking) to be silly, somewhat ridiculous, but good for a chuckle. I know even middle school kids know the difference between South and North Korea... no one would take offense to the above joke, as seen by nacure's good-natured responses so far. 😀

Having said that, however, I often wonder why the residents (at least most on SDN) enjoy antagonizing other specialties so much.

Does "OMFS culture" produce a sense of superiority (perhaps well-deserved) for all residents? I would like the opinion of those in the know -- do you find most of your colleagues (and yourself included) to be cynical, critical, sarcastic... is it somehow due to the rigorous work that's involved? Or is this just characteristic of the OMFS residents in the SDN sampling?

in order to survive the constant downpour of excrement for 4-6 years along with the hard knock nature of the hospital and dealing with the *****s in the ER and other surgical services, OMS residents blossom into cynical, sarcastic, and relentless beings. It really is a beautiful coming of age to see that metamorphosis in an intern. It's like survival in a jungle. You have to stick your chest out and have the loudest roar to get $hit done. Unfortunately, we sometimes get carried away and take it out on our dental brethren, when in fact, we are all fruit from the same tree (maybe except for perio) Damn, i was doing so well....

 

[LSU-Cowboy]

in order to survive the constant downpour of excrement for 4-6 years along with the hard knock nature of the hospital and dealing with the *****s in the ER and other surgical services, OMS residents blossom into cynical, sarcastic, and relentless beings. It really is a beautiful coming of age to see that metamorphosis in an intern. It's like survival in a jungle. You have to stick your chest out and have the loudest roar to get $hit done. Unfortunately, we sometimes get carried away and take it out on our dental brethren, when in fact, we are all fruit from the same tree (maybe except for perio) Damn, i was doing so well....

Dude...well put. Especially the fruit part....

 

[LSU-Cowboy]

anyways, i am not in this business to be a Tooth N Titanium surgeon... 😎 I am here to rip heads off and put them back together.

Yeah...I like ripping heads off....and then unwinding down on Bourbon St.

 

[Darcy]

I am diong postgrad study on orofacial pain,any comment???😉

 

[GatorDMD]

I am diong postgrad study on orofacial pain,any comment???😉

backdoor into endo?😉

 

[IcedOMFS]

backdoor into endo?😉

I always knew you were a backdoor kind of guy...

 

[nacure]

I don't believe in absolute ranks. I think it is safe to generalize into tiers, though. I would argue that ortho, surg, and endo are in the first group. I'd put Perio and Pedo are in the 2nd tier. Pros may be alone in the 3rd. Oral Path, Radiology, and the others are in the 4th or w/o a tier.

Even w/ these groupings, it's a complex process to tease out differences. Contrasting specialties is not comparing apples to apples.

What makes the specialty a top-tier one? Both subjective and objective elements exist. Amount of $ the specialist makes on average? Amount of $ made per hour worked? Number of applicants to the specialty? Number of "quality" applicants? Who defines "quality?" How many years of experience might it take to get in? Future overhead?

So, in South Korea periodontists make more $ than surgeons? That may explain why the specialty is more highly sought after.

...

 

[nacure]

I don't believe in absolute ranks. I think it is safe to generalize into tiers, though. I would argue that ortho, surg, and endo are in the first group. I'd put Perio and Pedo are in the 2nd tier. Pros may be alone in the 3rd. Oral Path, Radiology, and the others are in the 4th or w/o a tier.

Even w/ these groupings, it's a complex process to tease out differences. Contrasting specialties is not comparing apples to apples.

What makes the specialty a top-tier one? Both subjective and objective elements exist. Amount of $ the specialist makes on average? Amount of $ made per hour worked? Number of applicants to the specialty? Number of "quality" applicants? Who defines "quality?" How many years of experience might it take to get in? Future overhead?

So, in South Korea periodontists make more $ than surgeons? That may explain why the specialty is more highly sought after.

The positions that I suggested were based on the class ranks and Korean national dental exam score of successful candidates.

$$ are up to each single specialist.
OMFSs receive much money but not so high than periodontists.
As you said that can be a reason.
But omfs is still attractive specialty in Korea because of their ability.

 

[GatorDMD]

The positions that I suggested were based on the class ranks and Korean national dental exam score of successful candidates.

$$ are up to each single specialist.
OMFSs receive much money but not so high than periodontists.
As you said that can be a reason.
But omfs is still attractive specialty in Korea because of their ability.

i dont buy it! I am calling B---Ish!

Facists Pigs!!!!

 

[GQ1]

I don't believe in absolute ranks. I think it is safe to generalize into tiers, though. I would argue that ortho, surg, and endo are in the first group. I'd put Perio and Pedo are in the 2nd tier. Pros may be alone in the 3rd. Oral Path, Radiology, and the others are in the 4th or w/o a tier.

Even w/ these groupings, it's a complex process to tease out differences. Contrasting specialties is not comparing apples to apples.

What makes the specialty a top-tier one? Both subjective and objective elements exist. Amount of $ the specialist makes on average? Amount of $ made per hour worked? Number of applicants to the specialty? Number of "quality" applicants? Who defines "quality?" How many years of experience might it take to get in? Future overhead?

So, in South Korea periodontists make more $ than surgeons? That may explain why the specialty is more highly sought after.

Id easily put pros above perio...more applicants per spot, more domestic applicants, more money earnt, more scope for future growth. As OMFS are the end of the line surgically we are restoratively.

 

[vorosvirag]

Id easily put pros above perio...more applicants per spot, more domestic applicants, more money earnt, more scope for future growth. As OMFS are the end of the line surgically we are restoratively.

I create these tiers (artificial groupings) from personal observation and opinion. I don't have a monopoly on truth. I could be way off, but from my point of view these groups appear fairly accurate.

I'm interested to hear what the perio people have to say about your claim.

What are the %s of pros and perio positions that go to international students? While we're at it, what is the % of ortho positions taken by international students?

 

[tx oms]

I'm proud of everyone! This discussion is a very useful one w/o the nonsense insults that often accompany discussions about perio.

Periodontists are dumb.

 

[IcedOMFS]

Periodontists are dumb.

Hear hear! With small units, too.