ph.d > md?

[Fermata]

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It's not a second bachelor's degree.
A bachelor's degree tends to be less focused and more general than a professional degree.

Apparently I'm wrong.

Read this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=121727

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

The reason why PhD programs are relatively easier to get into is because there are many many MANY more spots available than MD programs. As far as the application process goes, yes, the MD is more "cutthroat," and unforgiving, but there is a much higher demand for PhD students overall.

I'm not even sure why or how you could say that one is superior to the other. They serve two entirely different purposes. Just because a person with a person has a doctorate doesn't mean that they want to treat patients. So for the person who claimed that PhDs "call themselves doctors because they wish they could've gotten into med school." is ignorant. I would even say that those who obtain PhDs in the biomedical sciences cannot be directly compared to MDs, because, again, no one with just a PhD is going to scrub in for surgery, and the vast majority (if not all) have no desire to.

Though med school admissions is relatively unforgiving during the admissions process, they are significantly more forgiving when it comes to academic requirements. Students are often carried through the program, whether they realize it or not, and many can gain their doctorate with the a minimal grasp of the "diverse and plentiful" concepts that you all brag about. The difference between an MD and a PhD is that MDs can get away with that; if they never fully understand the GI tract for some reason, they can simply go into dermatology, for example, and no one will question them.

In graduate programs, you don't just study your specific area of interest. For example, if you plan to pursure biochemistry, you still have to prove competency in graduate level physical, analytical, and organic chemistry, along with graduate level mathematics and instrumentation classes. Not only that, but you have to get at least a B in everything. And you don't just have to prove competency by way of written exams, you also have to do it with oral examinations at the end of your coursework. If you manage to survive this verbal drilling (which can last for hours), you then have to go on to do three to six years of work on an original thesis. Don't underestimate the amount of work that goes into this; graduate students literally become slaves to their PI and the laboratory for years. And there is intense pressure to produce positive results. While doing their research, they're also expected to write and publish papers on it, as well as papers reviewing research done elsewhere. If you make it this far without committing suicide, you have to hand in a humongous thesis (often close to 1000 pages), and defend it in front of a group of critics. Its not just a 'turn it in, and you're a PhD,' again you have to sit through hours of drilling . If you survive this without being reduced to tears, you will finally get your PhD.

Just because graduate schools are "free" doesn't mean that its an easy ride. The government, and schools themselves, support graduate students because they are considered a more worthwhile investment than medical students.

So in terms of the intensity of the programs alone, PhD>>>>>>>MD. Before and beyond that, there are no grounds for comparison.

 

[Fermata]

Nice response.

 

[JohnDO]

The only problem I have (I must admit 😳 ) is that some DO students say they are in medical school when in fact they attend osteopathic school.

I don't see any MD students running around telling people they're in allopathic school.

But as to the OP, both PhD and MD have my respect, though I am a bit bias towards a medical degree because I know the challenge and dedication it takes to obtain. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that PhD's don't work hard to get where they are. I just see medicine as the mount everest and phd as the appalachian mountains. 😀 👍 to both.

 

[Fermata]

I don't see any MD students running around telling people they're in allopathic school.

Relax. Perhaps in the future DO's will have as much name recognition as MD's.

 

[SoulRFlare]

If you manage to survive this verbal drilling (which can last for hours), you then have to go on to do three to six years of work on an original thesis. Don't underestimate the amount of work that goes into this; graduate students literally become slaves to their PI and the laboratory for years. And there is intense pressure to produce positive results. While doing their research, they're also expected to write and publish papers on it, as well as papers reviewing research done elsewhere. If you make it this far without committing suicide, you have to hand in a humongous thesis (often close to 1000 pages), and defend it in front of a group of critics. Its not just a 'turn it in, and you're a PhD,' again you have to sit through hours of drilling . If you survive this without being reduced to tears, you will finally get your PhD.

Just because graduate schools are "free" doesn't mean that its an easy ride. The government, and schools themselves, support graduate students because they are considered a more worthwhile investment than medical students.

So in terms of the intensity of the programs alone, PhD>>>>>>>MD. Before and beyond that, there are no grounds for comparison.

I think the intern and residency years may be comparable in intensity, if not more so, because ppl's lives are on the line. Instead of hours of intense drilling, you life becomes a prolonged pimping for a year or more. Of course I'm not yet a resident, and have never been a graduate student so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but I'd imagine many ppl would choose hours in the lab and a paper to 90+ hour work weeks with little pay, up to 36 hour shifts, and stress coming in from all sides.

 

[bearpaw]

haha, this is ridiculous. If you meet someone with a phD, are you impressed? Because if you are, you are impressed pretty damn easily. Some PhD programs are impressive, but on average they are not at all. I think the knowledge that doctors make more and are in this sacred profession also lends a greater degree of respect. PhD's generally are not on the same level, simply put.

Obviously DO's get no love from anyone except other DO's. Especially those of us that KNOW it is a backdoor. ITs like doing podiatry, come on, we know what's going on!

The judge of how society views your degree is seeing someone's reaction when they find out what you are doing. Last time i checked, very few people are impressed that you are getting a PhD in englist from villanova or whatever, but a lot of people think you're hot **** just cause you go to vcu med.

MD is the best as far as respect goes. PhD's try to play off their degree as prestigious, I see it all the time with grad students, but the rest of the world doesn't think so. I mean, its like going to Bucknell...everyone THERE thinks its a GREAT school, but who else does?

get your MD, smoke a cig, shut the fu#$ up.

 

[Fermata]

haha, this is ridiculous. If you meet someone with a phD, are you impressed? Because if you are, you are impressed pretty damn easily. Some PhD programs are impressive, but on average they are not at all. I think the knowledge that doctors make more and are in this sacred profession also lends a greater degree of respect. PhD's generally are not on the same level, simply put.

Obviously DO's get no love from anyone except other DO's. Especially those of us that KNOW it is a backdoor. ITs like doing podiatry, come on, we know what's going on!

The judge of how society views your degree is seeing someone's reaction when they find out what you are doing. Last time i checked, very few people are impressed that you are getting a PhD in englist from villanova or whatever, but a lot of people think you're hot **** just cause you go to vcu med.

MD is the best as far as respect goes. PhD's try to play off their degree as prestigious, I see it all the time with grad students, but the rest of the world doesn't think so. I mean, its like going to Bucknell...everyone THERE thinks its a GREAT school, but who else does?

get your MD, smoke a cig, shut the fu#$ up.

Where are you headed off to school?

 

[gschl1234]

I wouldn't judge an MD on its ability to obtain grants, that's not what the degree was designed for. Besides, I don't want to be a professional beggar, AKA PI, anyway.

I thought professional beggers were university presidents

 

[principessa]

haha, this is ridiculous. If you meet someone with a phD, are you impressed? Because if you are, you are impressed pretty damn easily. Some PhD programs are impressive, but on average they are not at all. I think the knowledge that doctors make more and are in this sacred profession also lends a greater degree of respect. PhD's generally are not on the same level, simply put.

I disagree. I am not terribly impressed when I meet a random M.D. They are so common, and a lot of schools admit marginally qualified applicants. If they got into a really good school or were accepted with tough odds (to a CA school, for example), I respect that. Ultimately, it depends on their competence. If someone is incompetent or haughty, it?s a real turnoff regardless of where they went.

Same with M.D.?s. At my graduation, when I saw all the professors in their Princeton, Harvard, Yale, etc. robes and the president in his MIT robe, I was filled with awe. Nonetheless, I realize that many Ph.D. programs admit less than stellar applicants, and not all degrees are equal. Just as in medicine, it ultimately depends on what you do with the degree.

There is one doctoral degree that I don?t respect very much - the Ed.D. It seems every Ed.D. I meet acts as if the degree gives them the right to comment on everything, but they are mostly full of hot air. What exactly do you have to do to get this degree?

 

[DrMom]

My mother's EdD from Vandy was a more stringent program than the equivalent PhD at Vandy.

 

[EvoDevo]

I thought I would try and add a mature perspective to some of the idiocy (and bearpaw, I'm talking to you).

The reason why PhD programs are relatively easier to get into is because there are many many MANY more spots available than MD programs. As far as the application process goes, yes, the MD is more "cutthroat," and unforgiving, but there is a much higher demand for PhD students overall.

Actually, there are far fewer PhD slots available per year than MD-only ones. According to this study, while there are (roughly) 15,000 MD graduates per year (and ~60,000 in training) the number of PhD graduates has been stable for years at around 5,000 (with ~54,000 in training). However, I will grant that the standards for admission are, for the most part, less stringent than medical school.

I'm not even sure why or how you could say that one is superior to the other. They serve two entirely different purposes. Just because a person with a person has a doctorate doesn't mean that they want to treat patients. So for the person who claimed that PhDs "call themselves doctors because they wish they could've gotten into med school." is ignorant. I would even say that those who obtain PhDs in the biomedical sciences cannot be directly compared to MDs, because, again, no one with just a PhD is going to scrub in for surgery, and the vast majority (if not all) have no desire to.

Exactly right. For the life of me I cannot imagine why the folks on this board get their panties in a wad about this. Seriously. I work with many PhD's who have NO desire to practice medicine and conversely I know several MD's for whom the thought of sitting at a lab bench gives them the shudders. Plus, they're completely different degrees. They are professionally equivalent degrees in absolutely different arenas.

...med school...are significantly more forgiving when it comes to academic requirements. Students are often carried through the program, whether they realize it or not, and many can gain their doctorate with the a minimal grasp of the "diverse and plentiful" concepts that you all brag about. The difference between an MD and a PhD is that MDs can get away with that;

Again, agreed. As a research scientist you cannot get away with not knowing the details of a wide variety of topics. For example, in our developmental biology program, students (and PI's) are expected to know (in detail): genetics, transcriptional mechanisms, antibody production and variation, programmed cell death mechanisms, DNA structure and variation, protein expression and regulation (including ubiquitination), cell-to-cell signalling, proteomics, statistics, and of course developmental regulation of genetic cascades. That's just a partial list, and if you don't know it, woe be to you (especially on an oral or written exam). Furthermore, if it becomes necessary to learn an area in order to pursue a line of research, you'd best become a mini-expert in that area because you'll be questioned relentlessly by your peers and other scientists.

...If you manage to survive this verbal drilling (which can last for hours), you then have to go on to do three to six years of work on an original thesis. Don't underestimate the amount of work that goes into this; graduate students literally become slaves to their PI and the laboratory for years. And there is intense pressure to produce positive results. While doing their research, they're also expected to write and publish papers on it, as well as papers reviewing research done elsewhere. If you make it this far without committing suicide, you have to hand in a humongous thesis (often close to 1000 pages), and defend it in front of a group of critics. Its not just a 'turn it in, and you're a PhD,' again you have to sit through hours of drilling . If you survive this without being reduced to tears, you will finally get your PhD.

Agreed. It ain't easy to come up with your own project from start to finish.

I'd also like to add that whether a certain degree is "preferred" in certain departments is entirely dependent on one thing: Can the PhD or MD get and maintain research funding? Because academic institution's lifeblood is grant money, and if you can get it then you'll be a star.

For example, if your department is oriented towards translational research (trying to get basic scientific advances into the clinic) then an MD who understands basic research might be a better choice. However, if you're looking for the basic research to drive the translational work, you're *likely* to be better off with PhD's driving the research. The reason for this is clear: MD's are generally not well trained in developing carefully controlled research projects. I think that we could all acknowledge that MD training is about assimilating the received wisdom and learning to excel at pattern recognition. That's not to say that MD's cannot excel @ basic research, as Rod McKinnon's recent Nobel prize demonstrates.

So please, let's stop with the immaturity and realize that both MD's and PhD's are integral members of the biomedical community, and ridiculous bickering about which one is "better" creates useless strife.

Peace

 

[ms2209]

I disagree. I am not terribly impressed when I meet a random M.D. They are so common, and a lot of schools admit marginally qualified applicants. If they got into a really good school or were accepted with tough odds (to a CA school, for example), I respect that. Ultimately, it depends on their competence. If someone is incompetent or haughty, it?s a real turnoff regardless of where they went.

I second this. For me, while MDs and PHDs are respectable, I'm not about to fall over whenever I meet someone with these degrees. It does depend on how competent and intelligent the individual is, and I know from personal experience that there are plenty of ignorant and highly intelligent people for each of the aforementioned degrees.

 

[skiz knot]

It's pointless to have an ego contest when our ultimate goal is to work synergistically with our highly educated peers.

The only problem I have (I must admit 😳 ) is that some DO students say they are in medical school when in fact they attend osteopathic school.[\QUOTE]


With this line of reasoning am I starting medical school in the fall, or allopathic school?

 

[jake2]

so, for those touting the "md is a second bachelors degree" stance, do you believe all graduate degrees hold greater merit than bachelors degrees? if so, does an MS supercede an MD? genuine question without the intention of any sarcasm.

Alright, here's what I got from a few minutes on google:

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/calendar/ordinances.htm

So, from what I gather, an MBBS (American MD) in considered a "First Degree and Undergraduate Award" that is equivilent the a "degree of Bachelor." A PhD is a "research degree," equivilent to a British MD.

So technically, I presume, a "degree of Master" should be considered greater than a "degree of Bachelor." However, I think it would be hard to argue that a Master of Midwifery (MMid) is more prestigious than a good old US MD. 🙂

 

[bearpaw]

for whoever who asked, i guess it's columbia...

anyway, YOU guys may respect PhD's equally, but the average person respects MD more. Even the worst med school has pretty hard standards to get into, whereas you waltz into many phd programs.

as far as DO's identifying themselves as going to medical school, everyone thinks MD= medical school. They are misrepresenting themselves in that capacity. When you have a FMG from Ghana saying he went to medical school just like you, let's see if you have a problem with that.

 

[cbc]

This is one of the strangest discussions I've encountered, and I hope to stop it now. Look, PhD, DDS, MD, PharmD, JD, all are doctorate degrees. Educationally/academically, they are considered equivalent and none is "higher" than the other. They are all considered "academically higher" than a BS or MS. These facts cannot be argued.

Now, prestige wise, that's a different story. Prestige will not be objective but subjective (which varies with your personal opinions plus the opinions amongst the general public, so whether and MD or PhD is higher in this case you can argue forever). Obviously, a BS from Princeton and Cal State Hayward are academically equivalent, but prestige wise, the Princeton gets dips. However, does this mean the person graduating from Hayward is always less competent than the guy from Princeton? What if the Hayward student graduated with a 4.0 and Princeton person 2.3? And is Princeton PhD always better than NYU MD or vice versa? This type of discussion regarding prestige/competence will continue forever because it depends solely on varying opinions and situations. Let it rest.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Actually, there are far fewer PhD slots available per year than MD-only ones. According to this study, while there are (roughly) 15,000 MD graduates per year (and ~60,000 in training) the number of PhD graduates has been stable for years at around 5,000 (with ~54,000 in training).

Thanks for looking that up, but that only accounts for PhDs for the biological sciences. Incorporate chemistry, physics, environmental science, engineering, and other science-based PhDs, I'm sure this number would, at the very least, double. Not to mention the humanities and math, which for the purposes of personal ignorance, I can't speak for.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Let it rest.

I think that this thread is pretty funny... its like a 3-way MD v. DO v. PhD jell-o wrestle.

I agree with a previous poster that to a layman, the MD is likely recieve the most respect, mainly because they are responsible for saving the average life. But that doesn't really add much to the original question.

 

[Asclepius]

anyway, YOU guys may respect PhD's equally, but the average person respects MD more. Even the worst med school has pretty hard standards to get into, whereas you waltz into many phd programs.

as far as DO's identifying themselves as going to medical school, everyone thinks MD= medical school. They are misrepresenting themselves in that capacity. When you have a FMG from Ghana saying he went to medical school just like you, let's see if you have a problem with that.

The average person didn't go to college and probably has no appreciation for these degrees. Many average people that hate physicians because they think they're swindlers.

I would think that many PhD programs are harder to get into than the hardest medical schools, considering that many programs take only a few (5-10) people a year.

DO's do go to medical school...there are two types of medical school - osteopathic and allopathic. If the guy went to medical school in Ghana (and still knows his stuff well), I'd respect him more than I would a Columbia graduate because he overcame the odds.

 

[EvoDevo]

Thanks for looking that up, but that only accounts for PhDs for the biological sciences. Incorporate chemistry, physics, environmental science, engineering, and other science-based PhDs, I'm sure this number would, at the very least, double. Not to mention the humanities and math, which for the purposes of personal ignorance, I can't speak for.

Ah, you're right. 😳 Duly noted, sir. 👍

 

[NDESTRUKT]

back to the original topic at hand, is a PhD > MD? yes and no.

a PhD from a top tier school with a rigid program can be better than an MD but in general? no. the reason i say this is because anyone can go to some no namer school and get a PhD. i know someone that got a PhD from some podunk college - who cares? to get an MD is definitely harder and more prestigious than that. in the case of the PhD from harvard in a science or oxford - that's impressive. of course in this case i am meaning the MD from the US schools approved by the LCME.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

back to the original topic at hand, is a PhD > MD? yes and no.

a PhD from a top tier school with a rigid program can be better than an MD but in general? no. the reason i say this is because anyone can go to some no namer school and get a PhD. i know someone that got a PhD from some podunk college - who cares? to get an MD is definitely harder and more prestigious than that. in the case of the PhD from harvard in a science or oxford - that's impressive. of course in this case i am meaning the MD from the US schools approved by the LCME.

I think people are confusing the difficulty to get into medical school with the difficulty to get through medical school. Its a professional degree, which by its nature, is difficult to get into because there are limited slots. Some (many) people argue that PA and pharmacy programs are much harder to get into than med schools, and they very well could be; however, that difficulty does not translate to an increased level of prestige.

BTW, getting a science PhD from Harvard PhD isn't anywhere near as impressive as getting one from CalTech or MIT.

 

[Tippy007]

Doesn't it depend on what you want to do in life?

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Doesn't it depend on what you want to do in life?

Exactly

 

[Asclepius]

One would expect the qualities of MD's to be more consistent...and consistent at a level of competency at least...because lives and health are at stake.

Academia is self-regulating, though. There are PhD's who are worthless, passed by their committee for whatever reason, and they won't ever be published in a peer-reviewed journal...an MD of this quality would be ousted as a health risk.

On the other hand, if you assume that an MD is better than a PhD, just keep in mind the Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings out there and ask yourselves how many MD's are household names. (...what Atkins and Spock?)

The MD doesn't really give you as much ground to distinguish yourself...you make significant contributions to individuals, but you likely won't change the world or the way we vierw it as an excellent PhD would.

 

[ms2209]

for whoever who asked, i guess it's columbia...

anyway, YOU guys may respect PhD's equally, but the average person respects MD more.

Personally speaking, I could care less what the average person respects. To me, that's not a sign that the object of his/her respect is WORTHY of any more respect than anyone else. The average person obsesses over Reality T.V. and probably "respects" Britney Spears more than they do Frederic Chopin (and gives Dubya his approval rating), so obviously, the average person is not too bright.

 

[Alexander99]

You guys are still talking about this? You'll all get a punch in the face if I see you around. 😡

 

[cbc]

Why are you all still arguing about this? You might as well start arguing about whether NBA players are more athletic than NFL players (where you will start using generalizations/opinions to obsessively compare Shaq, Lawrence Taylor, Jordan, and Jerry Rice but in the end prove nothing).

This is one of the strangest discussions I've encountered, and I hope to stop it now. Look, PhD, DDS, MD, PharmD, JD, all are doctorate degrees. Educationally/academically, they are considered equivalent and none is "higher" than the other. They are all considered "academically higher" than a BS or MS. These facts cannot be argued.

Now, prestige wise, that's a different story. Prestige will not be objective but subjective (which varies with your personal opinions plus the opinions amongst the general public, so whether and MD or PhD is higher in this case you can argue forever). Obviously, a BS from Princeton and Cal State Hayward are academically equivalent, but prestige wise, the Princeton gets dips. However, does this mean the person graduating from Hayward is always less competent than the guy from Princeton? What if the Hayward student graduated with a 4.0 and Princeton person 2.3? And is Princeton PhD always better than NYU MD or vice versa? This type of discussion regarding prestige/competence will continue forever because it depends solely on varying opinions and situations. Let it rest.

 

[javandane]

new discussion:

jd > md?

talk amongst yourselves. . . .

 

[Fermata]

for whoever who asked, i guess it's columbia...

Shibby.

 

[bearpaw]

people are so dumb...i can't believe you act like labels don't mean anything. If you give anyone you meet the benefit of the doubt until you meet them and walk a mile in their shoes fine, but lets face it, in real life people will evaluate individuals based on the information immediate to them. You cannot quantify everything about an individual, thats why things as profession, educational background, and wealth automatically are used when people are determining "is this guy ok?". Even you putzes that knock what I am saying are all about going to the best medical school you get into, and by best i mean "most prestigious". When someone goes to EVMS over yale because of the clinical emphasis i'll eat my own ****, till then then these things are utterly predictable.

When someone meets a person named doctor, they don't assume they are a "swindler". They may be jealous of the doctor and say things to that effect, but don't confuse envy with disrespect. The average person thinks doctors are smart, overpaid, and overall are among the most repected in society. If you want envy with disrespect, thats like when most people talk about rappers or basketball stars. Now, people who are well off may not have the same reverence towards physicians, but they are less likely to respect anyone.

People call lawyers scum, but mothers aren't exactly crying when their kid decides to become one, because they still have some respect. Not as much as MD's, but its a respectable profession.

Now, tell people you're getting a DO, and what do people think? "Separate but equal?". It didn't work then and it don't work now.

It don't take much to get a PhD. That's why they don't get much respect. No one brags about being a "PhD's wife". If you could different between fields, like EE or anything, that would be different, but a PhD from east nutzberg in education is the same phd as the one from mit aerospace. THat's why they don't get props. There are plenty of people in the worst MD schools that have harvard numbers and decent stats, so med schools all have at least a good standard level.

Med school in africa is crap, if i know anything. My mom says the nurses always get uptight at her hospital when a few of them do surgeries there because there are ALWAYS nasty complications, like severe post op bleeding. You are welcome to have your surgeries in ghana, however. You're a complete idiot if you think a 5 thousand dollar education is just as good as one that costs 400k to provide. you can also let a DO with his 25 mcat check your mother for recurrent breast cancer too. Or determine if your kid has ADD or is just being an a$$hole. However, equality goes out the window when it comes to my family.

 

[Fermata]

people are so dumb...i can't believe you act like labels don't mean anything. If you give anyone you meet the benefit of the doubt until you meet them and walk a mile in their shoes fine, but lets face it, in real life people will evaluate individuals based on the information immediate to them. You cannot quantify everything about an individual, thats why things as profession, educational background, and wealth automatically are used when people are determining "is this guy ok?". Even you putzes that knock what I am saying are all about going to the best medical school you get into, and by best i mean "most prestigious". When someone goes to EVMS over yale because of the clinical emphasis i'll eat my own ****, till then then these things are utterly predictable.

When someone meets a person named doctor, they don't assume they are a "swindler". They may be jealous of the doctor and say things to that effect, but don't confuse envy with disrespect. The average person thinks doctors are smart, overpaid, and overall are among the most repected in society. If you want envy with disrespect, thats like when most people talk about rappers or basketball stars. Now, people who are well off may not have the same reverence towards physicians, but they are less likely to respect anyone.

People call lawyers scum, but mothers aren't exactly crying when their kid decides to become one, because they still have some respect. Not as much as MD's, but its a respectable profession.

Now, tell people you're getting a DO, and what do people think? "Separate but equal?". It didn't work then and it don't work now.

It don't take much to get a PhD. That's why they don't get much respect. No one brags about being a "PhD's wife". If you could different between fields, like EE or anything, that would be different, but a PhD from east nutzberg in education is the same phd as the one from mit aerospace. THat's why they don't get props. There are plenty of people in the worst MD schools that have harvard numbers and decent stats, so med schools all have at least a good standard level.

Med school in africa is crap, if i know anything. My mom says the nurses always get uptight at her hospital when a few of them do surgeries there because there are ALWAYS nasty complications, like severe post op bleeding. You are welcome to have your surgeries in ghana, however. You're a complete idiot if you think a 5 thousand dollar education is just as good as one that costs 400k to provide. you can also let a DO with his 25 mcat check your mother for recurrent breast cancer too. Or determine if your kid has ADD or is just being an a$$hole. However, equality goes out the window when it comes to my family.

Not a popular opinion but I appreciate your honesty.

 

[bearpaw]

Not a popular opinion but I appreciate your honesty.

actually, i don't respect people much unless they are self made rich. MD is not impressive to me. Its only "equal". i think DO's are wannabe's, but at least they're trying, haha. Still, everytime i meet one, its like a little pat on my back. PhD = nothing special, along with everyone else in the world. I doesn't take much to get a bunch of degrees, and last time i checked poor people don't make much of a mark.

Now that's honesty.

 

[Asclepius]

My point was that stereotyping is dangerous... Which is better, an MD or a PhD? An allopathic or an osteopathic education? A physician from Ghana or from the US?

I'm sure there are plenty of fine physicians and surgeons from Ghana practicing in the US, but you would be wise to check into their reputation before seeing one...just as you should with any doctor.

And, yes, somepeople do hate doctors because they pay about $100 bucks to wait an hour or two for a 10 minute visit with a distracted physican where, frequently, absolutely nothing happens.

 

[cbc]

Jesus Christ, Mother Teresa, and Nostradamus were all poor, but some will say they made a mark.

actually, i don't respect people much unless they are self made rich. MD is not impressive to me. Its only "equal". i think DO's are wannabe's, but at least they're trying, haha. Still, everytime i meet one, its like a little pat on my back. PhD = nothing special, along with everyone else in the world. I doesn't take much to get a bunch of degrees, and last time i checked poor people don't make much of a mark.

Now that's honesty.

 

[javandane]

Jesus Christ, Mother Teresa, and Nostradamus were all poor, but some will say they made a mark.

nostradamus actually married an extremely wealthy widow prior to authoring his quatrains.
his mark, too, is highly questionable with respect to validity and value.

 

[mcjay]

M.D. all the way. Obviously, the only thing better is M.D/_____. (Ph.D, J.D., etc...) 👍

 

[kaikai128]

I respect both MDs and DOs and have seen them work together wonderfully. I think that they both are very valuable. They are almost the same, but not exactly in some approaches. I simply believe much more in the DO philosophy and I would not be true to myself if I were to go to an allopathic medical school.

I think this is a personal choice (to go MD, DO, or PhD...I know it is for me) and that it seems as if many people on this site lose track of what the real goal is (or should be)...I think the real goal should be to use all resources available to treat patients with the best possible care.

I just hope that as physicians of the future, everyone here is going to be able to realize that PhD's, MD's and DO's all have roles of importance. Attitudes of superiority towards equal leveled colleagues is not something that is going to be condusive of the best possible patient care; those who are not in this field to provide the best possible patient care are not in it for the right reasons.

 

[cbc]

I hate this argument, because it is so inaccurate. Look, everything is a "personal choice." Everyone always says, yeah I have the ability to be like Bill Gates but I chose to be a gardener because I like to grow grasses much more than business. If you choose to be a gardener, that's fine, but while you think you are just/can be as "prestigious" as the CEO of microsoft, everyone else will just be thinking, "prove it." If you have the ability to be a huge CEO but gave that up because you love to grow grasses, and the philosophy of gardening fits you much better than business, don't complain if no one respects you as much as Bill Gates because he is a powerful rich man and you're not (EVEN if you can be, you're still not).

Everyone should be in the NBA "for the love of the game of basketball." It's so ideal. In reality, it's that, plus the money fame prestige and pretty girls. If NBA pays $5/hr and gets no fame, I bet Allen Iverson would be a rap star right now instead. This is the same for any career.

I respect both MDs and DOs and have seen them work together wonderfully. I think that they both are very valuable. They are almost the same, but not exactly in some approaches. I simply believe much more in the DO philosophy and I would not be true to myself if I were to go to an allopathic medical school.

I think this is a personal choice (to go MD, DO, or PhD...I know it is for me) and that it seems as if many people on this site lose track of what the real goal is (or should be)...I think the real goal should be to use all resources available to treat patients with the best possible care.

I just hope that as physicians of the future, everyone here is going to be able to realize that PhD's, MD's and DO's all have roles of importance. Attitudes of superiority towards equal leveled colleagues is not something that is going to be condusive of the best possible patient care; those who are not in this field to provide the best possible patient care are not in it for the right reasons.

 

[bearpaw]

I hate this argument, because it is so inaccurate. Look, everything is a "personal choice." Everyone always says, yeah I have the ability to be like Bill Gates but I chose to be a gardener because I like to grow grasses much more than business. If you choose to be a gardener, that's fine, but while you think you are just/can be as "prestigious" as the CEO of microsoft, everyone else will just be thinking, "prove it." If you have the ability to be a huge CEO but gave that up because you love to grow grasses, and the philosophy of gardening fits you much better than business, don't complain if no one respects you as much as Bill Gates because he is a powerful rich man and you're not (EVEN if you can be, you're still not).

Everyone should be in the NBA "for the love of the game of basketball." It's so ideal. In reality, it's that, plus the money fame prestige and pretty girls. If NBA pays $5/hr and gets no fame, I bet Allen Iverson would be a rap star right now instead. This is the same for any career.

exactly. I don't know how much more time i have on this site, but i'm not going to let another year of this "DO's and MD's are brothers" crap slide. When you have people turning down MD acceptances for DO schools, then I'll start believing it. The only people who EVER turn down MD for DO do so after weighing other options, such as money and location. I've only seen one instance on SDN and the kid still would go to loma linda if he got in...he really needs to be in CA. There are no 35 or hell, 30, MCAT kids going to DO school. If you want to tell yourself DO's are the same, tell it to other DO's...just like PhD's do. No one gets wet when you tell them you're getting a PhD, but plenty of things open up when someone finds out you're gonna be a doctor.


"But I could have gone to harvard..." shut up. I HATE IT when someone says they COULD have done what I did but they just didn't. Do it and say you did it or shut the f#@# up. I remember some guy was knocking my previous med school as being only above average...but it was above average relative to other med schools. That guy still could not have gotten into ANY medical school with his stats, no matter how long he tried. Its real easy to start window shop with your future, but actually securing anything substantial is much more difficult.

When i got my first acceptance in october, i was completely relieved. It was a big step and an accomplishment for my family and I. I know how difficult it is to get in, I won't let some wannabe's play it down.

Anyone who is going to med school, don't have to show off or anything, but know what you did. It is a substantial accomplishment, more than what some want you to believe. Embrace stratification, as it is in our and the patient's best interest.

 

[mosoriire]

While I see the relevance of the PhD versus MD comparisons for clinical research, I dont for the purposes fo patient care. I believe that a DO is the equivalent of an MD degree, just as an MBBS is an equivalent of the MD degree. It's just a different soup of letters....

BTW, A lot of my firned passed regular MD acceptances for DO acceptance,s because the medical school associated with my undergraed school has one of the top-rated DO programs in the country...I think that snubbery of the DO degree is really stupid, given that a lot of DO programs are structured very similarly to MD degree-granting programs, and even palce a greater emphasis on total patient care and holistic medical attention...

Just my 2 cents

 

[DD214_DOC]

MD = technical/trade degree. Enough said.

 

[cbc]

Just because certain few people turned down the offer of being a US General to be a local police officer (for any reason you want to give) doesn't mean the prestige/competence of the former and latter are equal, at least not to most people.

You would be talking about me. I agree that sometimes people choose DO over MD because of location or money much like I did. However, I don't agree with your opinion of DOs.

On this site alone I can name you others who have chosen DO with an MD acceptance. These include SDNers Luwi, Robz, drusso, PACtoDOC, daelroy, irish79, AmyB, Ryan, and I'm sure there are others. If there are these many that have done so on SDN alone, you could imagine that there maybe be a good amount in the real world. I have heard estimates of about 1/3 of students at DO schools chose DO over MD for whatever reason.

This is why it is dangerous to stereotype and I hope that once you start practicing, your view of DOs will change.👍

 

[Blake]

Yes, but in the UK you miss out on our undergraduate/liberal arts portion of the education. So, while your medical education is essentially similar, US med students tend to be older and more widely educated (in theory anyway heh). I think the US may be the only country that places emphysis in "broad education" and "soul-searching to make sure that medicine is really the career for you." So, again, in theory, US med students in general may be more sure of their career goals and direction in life than med students elsewhere in the world (who must make important career-choices during high school). Now in practice, this requires US pre-meds to fully utilize their time in college exploring their interests etc. and not just view college as stepping-stone to med school. As we all know it doesn't always happen this way.

That's exactly the impression I get, after being on these forums for 2 days. The average US med student has a much broader experience, and he/she seems a lot more independent, mature, etc... Where I live, it's totally the opposite. People have to make a choice fast, or they miss '' the medical bus '' and have to wait 2-3 years for the next '' final one '', and I'm not kidding on that last chance part. Although I'm 99% sure that medicine is made for me, I am pretty sure some students in my situation felt like they didn't have much of a choice. It's like '' well, I'll enter medicine, since it's so hard to get in, and if I realise that I really hate it, well I'll just leave at some point''. That's the downside to this system, but for some, it's quite great. It's good to know I'll be a MD at 24 😀

 

[MoosePilot]

There's a separation between honesty and an informed opinion. You've got one down pat.

Ever evaluated a DO vs. an MD in a clinical setting? I shadowed two DOs. Random chance, because the military doesn't make a big distinction. They were both excellent doctors. Really, really excellent doctors. I saw the interaction between one of them and an MD he worked with. They were complete equals.

I'm way too hung up on status to be healthy, but even so I'd go to an Osteopathic school without feeling the least worry about it being an inferior education.

 

[gujuDoc]

I'm a premed student but I have spent a few years doing research and would like to say something.

Yes you get paid more money as an MD. However, before you all go on making stupid comments like PhD's are professional beggers, please realize one thing:


If RESEARCH DID NOT EXIST then..........

MEDICINE'S AND OTHER ADVANCES WOULD NOT EXIST EITHER.

In other words, we as future MD's will and those whom are currently MD's often do take advantage of medicine and other therapeutic devices as well as techonological advances such as that of robotic heart surgery technology or MRI's etc.

However, none of these things would have been possible if we didn't have researchers and biomedical engineers create our technology or find our cures that we treat our patients with.

Also, without researcher's hard work, we would have never known the cause of different illnesses and how to prevent many of them from occurring.

So I would stop debating this and realize that without researchers we probably would still be stuck in the days of ancient medicine.

 

[cbc]

gujudoc, let me tell you why your argument is inaccurate. Without janitors, pharmacists wouldn't be able to show up to their workplace and provide pills to patients. Thus, janitors indirectly help patients. Does that mean janitors are academically "higher" than pharmacists? Everyone is important to society, but this does not answer the question regarding the original topic.

MoosePilot, I've seen people who can do great research without a PhD. There are many non-doctorates who can do lots of great research after several years of lab experience, "complete equals" and without "a big distinction." However, bottom-line is, PhD is still more prestigious than the non-doctorate.

There's a separation between honesty and an informed opinion. You've got one down pat.

Ever evaluated a DO vs. an MD in a clinical setting? I shadowed two DOs. Random chance, because the military doesn't make a big distinction. They were both excellent doctors. Really, really excellent doctors. I saw the interaction between one of them and an MD he worked with. They were complete equals.

I'm way too hung up on status to be healthy, but even so I'd go to an Osteopathic school without feeling the least worry about it being an inferior education.

 

[MoosePilot]

MoosePilot, I've seen people who can do great research without a PhD. There are many non-doctorates who can do lots of great research after several years of lab experience, "complete equals" and without "a big distinction." However, bottom-line is, PhD is still more prestigious than the non-doctorate.

I've got no problem with someone who says an MD is more prestigious than a DO. That's all perception and perception is distressingly fluid. However, I read your post where you said "Just because certain few people turned down the offer of being a US General to be a local police officer (for any reason you want to give) doesn't mean the prestige/competence of the former and latter are equal, at least not to most people." and figured you were saying DOs were less competent than MDs on a scale similar to a General Officer and a local police officer. In my experience, Colonels may be in charge of an Air Force Wing, which can be equivalent to small town, an airport, and a small airline all combined. Colonels who do really great work get promoted to General, so the gap you're portraying is huge and in my opinion false.

 

[gujuDoc]

CBC,

I think it is your argument that is completely inaccurate.

First off, Pharmacists could easily pill bottles without janitors.

There really isn't a need for janitors to clean because anyone can do that.

However, not anyone can just mix a magic potion and come up with a cure for a disease.

Also, to say all pharmacists only pill bottles is quite inaccurate if that is what you are implying.

Pharmacists spend a lot of time learning details about each of the medicines and a lot of other things. Besides pilling bottles, there is a lot more that pharmacists do behind the scenes that requires them retaining each intricate detail about medicines and how they affect the body. If all they had to know was the title of each medicine and how to put into a bottle, there would not be a doctorate degree for Pharmacy. Some clinical pharmacists also are able trained to prepare medication, and research pharmacists are able to do some of the pharmacology type of stuff. So don't belittle a degree you know very little about.

Not all pharmacy is retail pharmacy. In fact, there are medical research pharmacists and clinical pharmacists whose work is a hell of a lot more than just putting pills into a bottle. So I would think before I talk before you make ignorant comments on what another profession does.

Frankly, medicine is not the only place where there are subspecialties, and I find that people arguing over prestige is pathetic, because there is more to medicine than just prestige and money. And while it may be nice to know we are going to be financially secure, there is no reason to be ignorant and belittle the other professions in the world.

And you know what, without research, we wouldn't have half the crap we will be using to treat patients. And you know what else, most of that stuff came from several years of PhD's doing basic science research, and then MD's applying basic science research to clinical research.

And last but not least, I applaud the person that made a point to say show just how hard it is for PhD's to succeed, and just how much they really work equally as hard as MD's.