Pharm job outlook?

[contemplating2005]

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lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

 

[AH.Rx]

Lol

 

[lalaland33]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

You can go to a pharmacy nearest to you and speak to a pharmacist and ask them whether it's true or not. They're most likely going to tell you exactly what you read on this forum.

At the end of the day what I want is low debt, great income, lots of job opportunities, career progression, stabile job, and a job i can tolerate.

Not all of these are guaranteed in pharmacy. I would suggest working in retail or hospital pharmacies to see whether you enjoy working in these settings.

 

[hye345]

I've been working as a pharmacist a little under 2 years. Got hired at career fair in 4th year, but my area is hard to staff. That seems to be the basic theme: around here, I often hear stories of people going from retail to hospital (or straight from graduation to hospital), or leaving the chains and going to work for another chain or independent, etc... this kind of stuff will probably be much harder the closer you get to a major city (say one with over 500k population). I recently spoke to a pharmacist who's been around (retail manager, hospital pharmacy, now works in long-term care), he basically said that there are too many pharmacists in the major cities, and that many positions are part-time (area he was specifically referring to was Southern California, but this could be applied to other areas as well).

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

I used to think they were full of **** until we interviewed the worthless piles of garbage graduates from the last two years.

Absolutely worthless

 

[a student]

I used to think they were full of **** until we interviewed the worthless piles of garbage graduates from the last two years.

Absolutely worthless

In other words, the job outlook is GOOD for worthy outstanding graduates?

 

[Chriskahn]

I used to think they were full of **** until we interviewed the worthless piles of garbage graduates from the last two years.

Absolutely worthless

Oh man. Can you provide examples? Asking for a friend

 

[steveysmith54]

i had 407.84 job offers out of a 4 year pharmacy school that i completed in 1.5 years and was offered 98.56K sign on bonus and making $742,676.22 per year now.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

It’s pretty terrible imo.

Retail chains aren’t even hiring in my area, you know it’s god awful when you hear that.


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[Momus]

Our interns are being told "We aren't hiring, apply elsewhere". Part timers scrambling to get enough hours, getting only 1-3 shifts/week is common especially during the slow vacation season. Waiting list is a bunch of pharmacists waiting for an open full time slot. Weak ass pharmacists getting fired left and right in a couple districts. It used to be you have a pulse, you have a job. Times are a changing!

 

[Dr. Galazkiewicz]

This might as well apply to pharmacists now.

 

[gwarm01]

If the job market was booming then why would pre-pharmers be trying to cut out the competition?

Retail jobs are getting tighter year after year. A few years back Publix started people at 30 hours/week, now I'm hearing Kroger and other grocery stores are doing the same. Hospital pharmacy feels shielded from this belt tightening for now, probably because there is a minimum expectation of service that our internal customers will accept before they raise hell. If nursing or a powerful doc want something, it tends to happen. Of course, you have to deal with the ever increasing credentialing requirements for even an entry-level position. Hard to say what will happen with pay in the long term.

 

[headortail]

Not looking for a job but still keep a close look on the job market outlook... mostly to make sure I always feel lucky to have a job. At the end of the shift it's always tiring, but less so when I keep this in mind.

Just thought this is pretty amusing so I'll share

Does Uber do this to any job search on LinkedIn? Or do they know something about pharmacy job outlook Anyway, I've seen maybe 3 job postings for FT pharmacist jobs in areas other than retail during a 2 month monitoring. Wonder what kind of connections you have to have to get jobs in OC...

 

[AH.Rx]

Not looking for a job but still keep a close look on the job market outlook... mostly to make sure I always feel lucky to have a job. At the end of the shift it's always tiring, but less so when I keep this in mind.

Just thought this is pretty amusing so I'll share

Does Uber do this to any job search on LinkedIn? Or do they know something about pharmacy job outlook Anyway, I've seen maybe 3 job postings for FT pharmacist jobs in areas other than retail during a 2 month monitoring. Wonder what kind of connections you have to have to get jobs in OC...

They have that for nurses too. Uber driver- supplement your nurse income. Look it up.

 

[Lnsean]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

I got people working in my district that graduated 1-2 years ago still only getting 2-3 days/week of work...not by choice either.

 

[johnpharm01]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

I am a 2001 graduate, residency trained lots of experience. The overall market has changed dramatically with 2008-2009 as a landmark. Prior to 2008 to 2009, as long as your license was active you could be working in days at Walgreens, CVS with a starting bonus, OT, etc. You could have two jobs I did. During my residency in 2001, I floated for CVS. The scheduler would call me and offer me work. I negotiated pay i.e. working 10 hours being paid 12 etc, got paid drive time. 2008-2009 the market tightened. Now it continues to tighten, so much Walgreens, CVS have their pick and have continued to make working conditions worse. This is just retail.

Pharmacy careers can be more than retail, but most jobs are in retail and hospital. My opinion is that retail positions will start being converted to tech positions. The market for director of pharmacies, true clinicians, managed care is totally different. Anyone entering pharmacy looking for a meaningful career will have to invest a lot into it and have a narrow path for success. I have spoken recently to recruiters and one was telling me there is a push for pharmacists to do 4 years of residency like physicians. This is absurd.

 

[gwarm01]

I have spoken recently to recruiters and one was telling me there is a push for pharmacists to do 4 years of residency like physicians. This is absurd.

Be still my beating heart.

 

[Lnsean]

I am a 2001 graduate, residency trained lots of experience. The overall market has changed dramatically with 2008-2009 as a landmark. Prior to 2008 to 2009, as long as your license was active you could be working in days at Walgreens, CVS with a starting bonus, OT, etc. You could have two jobs I did. During my residency in 2001, I floated for CVS. The scheduler would call me and offer me work. I negotiated pay i.e. working 10 hours being paid 12 etc, got paid drive time. 2008-2009 the market tightened. Now it continues to tighten, so much Walgreens, CVS have their pick and have continued to make working conditions worse. This is just retail.

Pharmacy careers can be more than retail, but most jobs are in retail and hospital. My opinion is that retail positions will start being converted to tech positions. The market for director of pharmacies, true clinicians, managed care is totally different. Anyone entering pharmacy looking for a meaningful career will have to invest a lot into it and have a narrow path for success. I have spoken recently to recruiters and one was telling me there is a push for pharmacists to do 4 years of residency like physicians. This is absurd.

lmao @ 4 year residencies....PGY4 is actually gonna be a thing huh

 

[johnpharm01]

lmao @ 4 year residencies....PGY4 is actually gonna be a thing huh

Thats what the recruiter told me. I thought my residency made a big difference in my career because I actually got to work with MDs and other members of the healthcare team (I did a PGY2). If pharmacy schools changed their curriculum and there were more actual clinical pharmacists so that pharmd students could go work with them, you could get rid of the PGY1 residency. My medicine rotation in my fourth year was a very nice suburban hospital where my preceptors stayed in the basement. I learned some but the time could have been better spent. I also think pharmacy residencies are taking advantage of the job market and really using residents are half price labor. I'd like to hear a current residents perspective on that.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Thats what the recruiter told me. I thought my residency made a big difference in my career because I actually got to work with MDs and other members of the healthcare team (I did a PGY2). If pharmacy schools changed their curriculum and there were more actual clinical pharmacists so that pharmd students could go work with them, you could get rid of the PGY1 residency. My medicine rotation in my fourth year was a very nice suburban hospital where my preceptors stayed in the basement. I learned some but the time could have been better spent. I also think pharmacy residencies are taking advantage of the job market and really using residents are half price labor. I'd like to hear a current residents perspective on that.

Your last few sentences are widely recognized and accepted as true.


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[DrVader]

Thats what the recruiter told me. I thought my residency made a big difference in my career because I actually got to work with MDs and other members of the healthcare team (I did a PGY2). If pharmacy schools changed their curriculum and there were more actual clinical pharmacists so that pharmd students could go work with them, you could get rid of the PGY1 residency. My medicine rotation in my fourth year was a very nice suburban hospital where my preceptors stayed in the basement. I learned some but the time could have been better spent. I also think pharmacy residencies are taking advantage of the job market and really using residents are half price labor. I'd like to hear a current residents perspective on that.

Why paid full price when you can get pennies on the dollar. The sad fact is that pharmacy schools are still cranking out graduates like no tomorrow. There job is to sell the degree, they don't care about the job market. The whole college bubble is going to burst when two things happen. If when the government stops guaranteeing students loans and when schools are had account to their graduates success.

 

[smercer]

I can attest to several things:

1) There were graduates from my 2017 class who did not get ANY work until 6 months after graduation.
2) The push for PGY3 is very real. Also large academic hospitals in the my area are pushing for PGY2 to get in the door (this includes staffing type roles).
3) Schools are struggling to get their share of good students and are lowering standards just to fill seats at this point. Thanks ACPE for letting people take on 100-200K in debt only to either fail out or be an unemployed pharmacist.
4) Somehow there are still people going into this field without ever STEPPING FOOT into a pharmacy. At least 15% of my class had not worked in a pharmacy before starting school.
5) As I have said in previous threads, no one is going to tell these kids the truth except actual working pharmacists. Everyone else they talk to is either uninformed or has something to be gained from them. Undergrad has no idea what happens after you leave beyond that they get Grad school numbers to tout, pharmacy school gets fat checks for 3-4 years, and even residency gets 1/2 price labor for 1, 2, and soon to be 3 years. Heck even our organizations think we need more pharmacists.
6) Don't believe anything I have said because I am a disgruntled pharmacist who wants to keep all of the jobs available to myself.

 

[smercer]

Why paid full price when you can get pennies on the dollar. The sad fact is that pharmacy schools are still cranking out graduates like no tomorrow. There job is to sell the degree, they don't care about the job market. The whole college bubble is going to burst when two things happen. If when the government stops guaranteeing students loans and when schools are had account to their graduates success.

Even if they got held to graduate success, they would just open new schools for the new grads to work at and produce even more pharmacists. Not like the ACPE actually regulates anything.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I can attest to several things:

1) There were graduates from my 2017 class who did not get ANY work until 6 months after graduation.
2) The push for PGY3 is very real. Also large academic hospitals in the my area are pushing for PGY2 to get in the door (this includes staffing type roles).
3) Schools are struggling to get their share of good students and are lowering standards just to fill seats at this point. Thanks ACPE for letting people take on 100-200K in debt only to either fail out or be an unemployed pharmacist.
4) Somehow there are still people going into this field without ever STEPPING FOOT into a pharmacy. At least 15% of my class had not worked in a pharmacy before starting school.
5) As I have said in previous threads, no one is going to tell these kids the truth except actual working pharmacists. Everyone else they talk to is either uninformed or has something to be gained from them. Undergrad has no idea what happens after you leave beyond that they get Grad school numbers to tout, pharmacy school gets fat checks for 3-4 years, and even residency gets 1/2 price labor for 1, 2, and soon to be 3 years. Heck even our organizations think we need more pharmacists.
6) Don't believe anything I have said because I am a disgruntled pharmacist who wants to keep all of the jobs available to myself.

In response to point #2 -- people in pharmacy are seriously pushing for PGY3 residencies? And is completion of a PGY2 residency really being required now just to get a hospital staffing job in rural areas of GA (at least, I seem to recall you saying that you took a hospital job in a more rural area)? So glad I left pharmacy school when I did. With PGY2 residency a requirement for hospital positions now (or soon to become one), I'd be looking at having over 4 more years worth of school/residency training to complete before working even my first day as a pharmacist. Someone could complete PA/AA school almost twice in that span of time (that's not even including the first two years of pharmacy school). The fact that all that extra training comes with a paycut as compared to retail makes it even more sad.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

What exactly have you been contemplating for 13 years, anyway?

 

[ericn2k3]

If the market is so competitive, why is it that retail company not able to hire better pharmacist? They should have their pick right? Some of these new hires are terrible. Major markets too (Philadelphia).

 

[gwarm01]

I thought my residency made a big difference in my career because I actually got to work with MDs and other members of the healthcare team (I did a PGY2).

I did no residency, graduated within this decade, and had the exact same experience. Rounding with the med team, working in specialty areas, etc. Our team had a mix of non-residency trained, PGY1, and a PGY2 all doing essentially the same thing. Those of us without residency had to fight a little harder to get the opportunities due to management's preference of credentials, but once established we were all treated equally.

This experience at the start of my career is a big reason why I'm so critical of pharmacy residency. There was no meaningful difference between anyone on our team despite the varying credentials. Individual aptitude didn't seem to correlate with post-grad training. It just goes to show that we have too much variation in what a residency is -- some people are stuck in a basement doing cart fills, others may be in a rural hospital seeing very routine patients, while others may be in a world-class teaching institution seeing disease states and procedures that your average pharmacist may never encounter. Regardless, they are all receiving specialized training for the exact same job of pharmacist. There is no meaningful differentiation in the job they will find themselves in. Even in the areas where specialized training really help, such as oncology and transplant, all of the residency training in the world won't matter when PGY2 pharmacists are still taking staff positions.

 

[DrVader]

Even if they got held to graduate success, they would just open new schools for the new grads to work at and produce even more pharmacists. Not like the ACPE actually regulates anything.

If someone gets drunk and crashes a car, people will sue the liquor manufacture. If someone goes on a mass shooting, people sue the manufacturer. But I spend 6 years and 200k and can't find a job, why can't I sue the school? Why can't I demand a refund? Generally, most businesses that sell a product or a service promise some sort of guarantee or refund. Why should universities be held toa different standard?

 

[Rouelle]

lots of complaining on the pre pharm forum of the job market. I am wondering if they are full of **** and would like to hear the opinions of those who actually work as a pharmacist. Maybe they trying to reduce competition.

You might also try the search function. There have been many threads written about this topic.

 

[Ra1nMak3r]

If someone gets drunk and crashes a car, people will sue the liquor manufacture. If someone goes on a mass shooting, people sue the manufacturer. But I spend 6 years and 200k and can't find a job, why can't I sue the school? Why can't I demand a refund? Generally, most businesses that sell a product or a service promise some sort of guarantee or refund. Why should universities be held toa different standard?

Because it's everybody's fault except yours that you can't find a job. You took a gamble when you went to pharmacy school. You should be accountable for your choices.

 

[wagrxm2000]

In response to point #2 -- people in pharmacy are seriously pushing for PGY3 residencies? And is completion of a PGY2 residency really being required now just to get a hospital staffing job in rural areas of GA (at least, I seem to recall you saying that you took a hospital job in a more rural area)? So glad I left pharmacy school when I did. With PGY2 residency a requirement for hospital positions now (or soon to become one), I'd be looking at having over 4 more years worth of school/residency training to complete before working even my first day as a pharmacist. Someone could complete PA/AA school almost twice in that span of time (that's not even including the first two years of pharmacy school). The fact that all that extra training comes with a paycut as compared to retail makes it even more sad.

So have you been accepted anywhere yet?

 

[smercer]

In response to point #2 -- people in pharmacy are seriously pushing for PGY3 residencies? And is completion of a PGY2 residency really being required now just to get a hospital staffing job in rural areas of GA (at least, I seem to recall you saying that you took a hospital job in a more rural area)? So glad I left pharmacy school when I did. With PGY2 residency a requirement for hospital positions now (or soon to become one), I'd be looking at having over 4 more years worth of school/residency training to complete before working even my first day as a pharmacist. Someone could complete PA/AA school almost twice in that span of time (that's not even including the first two years of pharmacy school). The fact that all that extra training comes with a paycut as compared to retail makes it even more sad.

It has not gotten that bad outside of the Atlanta area, but the hospitals inside the perimeter are definitely moving to that.

 

[PharmtoCS]

If the market is so competitive, why is it that retail company not able to hire better pharmacist? They should have their pick right? Some of these new hires are terrible. Major markets too (Philadelphia).

You’re more likely to get terrible pharmacists when schools flood the market with terrible graduates that would not have been accepted 5-10 years ago.

It’s a myth that increased market competition improves the quality of hires. You get more competition at the hiring level but at the same time we have seen the near elimination of standards to get into pharmacy school.

 

[PAtoPharm]

So have you been accepted anywhere yet?

Let's just say that plans are in place for next year (and beyond)...

 

[PharmtoCS]

Let's just say that plans are in place for next year (and beyond)...

Let’s just call a spade a spade. He has not gotten in anywhere.

 

[Melazine]

I'm tired of explaining to people how satuated this field is. Just do it. We don't really care if you end up homeless.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Let's just say that plans are in place for next year (and beyond)...

What field did you decide to go into? I know before you didn't want to talk about certain things but I figure you'll be taking about your career choice at least.

 

[PAtoPharm]

What field did you decide to go into? I know before you didn't want to talk about certain things but I figure you'll be taking about your career choice at least.

Like you said, I don't want to be too specific, but it is either AA or PA school. Maybe I will get into specifics later on

 

[PAtoPharm]

Let’s just call a spade a spade. He has not gotten in anywhere.

Yeah, 200+ PA programs out there, and not one of them was willing to accept me. You got it

 

[PAtoPharm]

[emoji23]

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The sad thing is, there are something like 40+ more in the pipeline to be established. Going to make it an imperative to establish myself in the field before it becomes Pharmacy v.2.0.

 

[johnpharm01]

You’re more likely to get terrible pharmacists when schools flood the market with terrible graduates that would not have been accepted 5-10 years ago.

It’s a myth that increased market competition improves the quality of hires. You get more competition at the hiring level but at the same time we have seen the near elimination of standards to get into pharmacy school.

I agree. In my last position I had three pharmacy students 4 th year and in my position before that worked at a major retailer with new grads. Some good graduates are coming out and many bad ones are too. But you have to define what a "good rph" is. If you are a major retailer, a new doe eyed grad with 200k in debt and all their experience as a tech is a better choice than an experienced pharmacist without the debt.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

The sad thing is, there are something like 40+ more in the pipeline to be established. Going to make it an imperative to establish myself in the field before it becomes Pharmacy v.2.0.

Might as well quit now before you finish the program... ya know, like you did with pharmacy.

Why go to that professional school if it seems to be heading the same way pharmacy is?


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[wagrxm2000]

The sad thing is, there are something like 40+ more in the pipeline to be established. Going to make it an imperative to establish myself in the field before it becomes Pharmacy v.2.0.

Do you think it's wise if it's going to end up being just like pharmacy?

 

[steveysmith54]

Do you think it's wise if it's going to end up being just like pharmacy?

I was thinking the same. If all the indicators are there, and it’s the new schools that will change the landscape of the progression, why repeat the same mistake again? They say that’s the definition of insanity lol...

 

[BidingMyTime]

If the market is so competitive, why is it that retail company not able to hire better pharmacist? They should have their pick right? Some of these new hires are terrible. Major markets too (Philadelphia).

Well, at a certain point when the market is hyper-saturated...then nepotism is the only way to get a job. And nepotism doesn't care about quality.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Might as well quit now before you finish the program... ya know, like you did with pharmacy.

Why go to that professional school if it seems to be heading the same way pharmacy is?


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Do you think it's wise if it's going to end up being just like pharmacy?

I was thinking the same. If all the indicators are there, and it’s the new schools that will change the landscape of the progression, why repeat the same mistake again? They say that’s the definition of insanity lol...

Not many other options with my background at this point, and I don't want to spend more than 2-2.5 more years in school (or career prep in general). I'll still be able to graduate soon enough to have time to establish my own career before the field gets saturated like pharmacy, and when that day comes, hopefully I'll have obtained enough experience to differentiate myself (competitiveness-wise) from all the new grads.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Well, at a certain point when the market is hyper-saturated...then nepotism is the only way to get a job. And nepotism doesn't care about quality.

This already appears to be the case with non-retail jobs.

 

[endor55]

This already appears to be the case with non-retail jobs.

Hey Stoichiometrist, I've read quite a bit of the things you've posted in recent years (way before I even signed up for an SDN profile) and I'm genuinely curious about a few things, if you'd be so kind. I know a lot of people badger you for your perceived negativity/pessimism whereas you, in my estimation, appear to just be a brutally honest realist and, based on your personal experiences, "Calls it like [you] sees it". I say all that to say that I ask, in earnest, for reasons that I hope are fairly obvious (give the topic of this thread).

1. What pharmacy school did you earn your Pharm.D from?

2. What is the farthest you've ever looked at and/or been willing to relocate to get a better job? Have you ever applied/interviewed out of the city, and even moreso, the state where you live?

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[Schwimmy]

My brother is doing a PGY-2 for the sheer enjoyment (I helped bankroll his education) and got his MBA concurrent to his PharmD. I have know idea what he'll end up doing but he's smart as hell and an excellent people person, so he'll probably be getting anywhere he wants to be.

I had to move out of state (KS) recently because of the poor job market. Was willing to relocate about anywhere, but the big four (KC, Topeka, Lawrence, Wichita) are oversaturated and even though there's only one pharmacy school and (according to aforementioned pharmacy school) "whole counties without a pharmacist", nobody wants to go into the BFE of BFE, where Walmart is only a 1.5 hr drive and the local pizzahut charges $15 for a medium.

Most of the students moved south in my time (2012), and now they go west to CA or stay and get depressed with 6-8 month wait with no work or placements. I told my brother's friend to come up here to the great cold north, where they seemed hesitant to take me, but holy **** I thought I was a lazy middling pharmacist; some of the PIC's have a policy that they "don't fill" or taking your pharmacy to 1/3 of the rx volume in a year they keep you on for 5 more years. I saw 5-6 PIC's quit last year after it was announced no raise/bonus for the 5th year in a row, and another quit after 12 years of managing b/c the company won't hire techs for more than $2 less of what McDonalds offers, so it must not be that bad up here...

 

[Gombrich12]

Meanwhile in medicine...