Pharmacist shortage

[YiYaoYue]

I didn't do pharmacy so I can get handed a job, but eventually I do want a stable full time job in the desired field of practice. I will probably have a few years of where I can work two part time jobs, be an interim, or do night shift, but eventually want to settle.

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[konkan]

If this Power thingy from Wags is a huge hit in FL and it goes nationwide and other pharmacies emulate it, then not only is the pharm shortage over, but I would argue that the current number of pharm schools will soon produce a large surplus of pharms in the near future. That doesn't even factor in the new schools that are mushrooming everywhere.

I don't think that anyone should be surprised by this. If you work for for-profit, public companies, they will find everyway they can to squeeze more productivity out of you while figuring out how they can outsource your job. That's how American companies function these days.

With $4 generics and other pharm incentive plans, it seems to me that the pharmacy is now a loss leader for lots of stores such as Wal-Mart. If you're an expense rather than a profit-maker for any company, don't be surprised if they try everything they can to reduce your presence to the bare minimum.

I still think that it was a huge mistake for the pharm profession to go to the pharmD. It's even a bigger mistake making students have a BS before being admitted to pharm school. Is pursuing a pharm career worth it if students are graduating with $150-200k in debt, require 8 years post-high school, and entering a workforce that has a surplus which will drive down salaries?

Pharmacists salaries were never driven down during past 20-30 years. There were times of pharmacists surplus though.
The bottom line is that corporate world is sneaking into health care, and pharmacy was hit first. Eventually the same will happen to other fields, including medicine and dentistry. We already see the beginning (HMOs and companies employing dentists).

 

[Farmercyst]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/511648_1

It's a couple years old, but seemed to cover a few of the topics in the thread.
Registration required, but you might as well anyway, medscape pharmacy updates are good to have.

 

[meister]

They need to stop building pharmacy schools for a few years and get all the schools on a somewhat even playing field. I mean when you have **** happening like the Hawaiian pharmacy school a couple years ago it doesn't look good for your profession.

Then people need to stop taking the easy-route and going retail and should start doing a residency and expanding the hospital based clinical role of the pharmacist. Rounding with physicians and giving input on drug therapy will be the saving grace of the profession, not standing behind the counter at a Wal-Mart pointing white trash in the direction of the Bud Lite and thinking you deserve $57/hour. I'm sorry but that's the truth, mainly because these god-less corporate snakes DO NOT CARE ABOUT PATIENT SAFETY, all they care about is profit. The only thing propping up retail pharmacy at this point is a dated requirement that a pharmacist be on-staff at all times when medication is being dispensed. As soon as the chains get the states to start removing that requirement it'll be the end of retail pharmacy.

I know people have been saying this for a couple decades, but it has gotten demonstrably worse in the past ten years. I mean, $4 generics and ****ing Wal-Mart? Time to pack your bags.

 

[JackTran]

and JACKTRAN.....what school are you from and where did you hear the announcemt..very interesting, i want to learn more...

..and finally, as much as i support discussion of future problems in our profession, lets be practical and not troll around

I'm from NSU (a private school).
They specifically gave numbers but I wasn't paying attention since we had a test that day and just focused on my notes!
I just remember something like they WILL be a surplus of RETAIL pharmacists, however, there will be a shortage of pharmacists in other fields (clinical, etc.).
They gave us numbers so information must be somewhere.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Please tell us what schools are on your list of "$40k a year scam diploma mill schools" or what constitutes one, I'm curious...

I've had people that have taken in students tell me that students from the new school in Charleston are "idiots" compared to kids from WVU. Not my words...

But its only logical that the new school are going to graduate subpar pharmacists. Most have admitted classes with lower standards. Lesser candidates coming in...lesser candidates coming out...just how it is. It's why Harvard degrees are so prestigious....and why the future of pharmacy will be similar. Tiered schools....the WVUs and Ohio States and USCs of the world that have been around forever in tier 1....then the private schools that started in the 00s who get their candidates from the tier 1 school's leftovers in tier 2...

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I'm from NSU (a private school).
I just remember something like they WILL be a surplus of RETAIL pharmacists, however, there will be a shortage of pharmacists in other fields (clinical, etc.).

Oh...hell, that's great then. The idiots can fight over who gets a job revolving around bagging tampons and the real pharmacists will still be in demand. Rock on. Perhaps in 5 years the hospital trolls will actually be paid more than the people in retail. Best news this week.

 

[JeremyE30]

Perhaps in 5 years the hospital trolls will actually be paid more than the people in retail. Best news this week.

+1

I have been thinking, and a surplus of retail pharmacists might not be so bad. It will keep the technicians from creeping up on our profession the same way that PAs and NPs have to the MDs. If there is a surplus of pharmacists then there is no reason to advance the role of pharmacy techs. I never want to see a bachelors in pharmacist assistant, I will puke to death.

 

[qwead]

I'm from NSU (a private school).
They specifically gave numbers but I wasn't paying attention since we had a test that day and just focused on my notes!
I just remember something like they WILL be a surplus of RETAIL pharmacists, however, there will be a shortage of pharmacists in other fields (clinical, etc.).
They gave us numbers so information must be somewhere.

AWESOME...good these greedy selfish ple have it coming...and clinical pharmds will rule again..lol..j/k

 

[YiYaoYue]

Oh...hell, that's great then. The idiots can fight over who gets a job revolving around bagging tampons and the real pharmacists will still be in demand. Rock on. Perhaps in 5 years the hospital trolls will actually be paid more than the people in retail. Best news this week.

I was thinking the same thing... i hope its true... but again not sure if this "official" source is reliable... probably just another guess.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

The only thing propping up retail pharmacy at this point is a dated requirement that a pharmacist be on-staff at all times when medication is being dispensed. As soon as the chains get the states to start removing that requirement it'll be the end of retail pharmacy.

Meister's right. For a med student he knows a lot about the profession of pharmacy (too bad there are not more like him). If somehow, the CVS's and Walgreens are able to reverse the requirement of having a pharmacist when meds are dispensed, then that will be the endgame of retail pharmacy.

 

[Pharmpills]

The problem is that too many satellite and new schools are built and on top of that aton of students are graduating which will fill up alot of the jobs. I think what will eventually happen is that supply will surpass demand and the pay will go down but to a limit and u will have situations where the people who are already hired are fine and make a decent paycheck while those who just graduated have a hard time & that will kill supply. This same thing goes to other fields even medicine where the amount of M1's are the highest there has ever been. There's a limit to everything and in theory pharmacy could expand as retailers consider opening clinics which could steal a Doctor's patients and increase our pay . Personally i think satellite campuses need to stop expanding so much and we need to do more as pharmacist like monitor outcomes for patients as well as run tests like blood glucose, sugar, cholesterol and make more than 60 an hour.

 

[YiYaoYue]

Meister's right. For a med student he knows a lot about the profession of pharmacy (too bad there are not more like him). If somehow, the CVS's and Walgreens are able to reverse the requirement of having a pharmacist when meds are dispensed, then that will be the endgame of retail pharmacy.

Every pharmacist will fight against that legislation.

Might as well just let the guy selling glasses without OD check your vision, or a MD/DO without surgeon training do open heart surgery on a patient, or the dental assistant to drill a tooth, or let a RN be a NP or PA or just clump them into one degree.

If that happens it will ruin the ENTIRE health profession not just pharmacy.

 

[qwead]

That will never happen...I doubt walgreens or cvs will ever consider this...its a liability issue!!!...techs and machines do not have the knowledge and intelligence one obtains from rigorous training and school that a pharmacist has...if they do this wags and cvs would be getting so many lawsuits...which can be revival for lawyers...so all you doom and gloom ple you guys can transfer to law school and be guaranteed a job...

What's stopping a nurse from doing everything a doctor does for cheaper labor...or a dental assistant for a dentist...let's be realistic people...

These greedy retail corporations may be powerful but they can not completely make a retail pharmd extinct...

It is just so sad that these corporations have taken every ounce of decency and respect from the profession...when I was younger ple revered and respected a pharmcist for their intelligence and knowledge, now corporations have made them seem like a mcdonalds employee that you can yell at if your fries were burnt or something...

If I were a med student I would be worrying about PA and NP from taking my job than worrying about the pharmacy world...my dos centavos

 

[qwead]

Hahah...you read my mind before I could even post this...wow

 

[Taurus]

in theory pharmacy could expand as retailers consider opening clinics which could steal a Doctor's patients and increase our pay . Personally i think satellite campuses need to stop expanding so much and we need to do more as pharmacist like monitor outcomes for patients as well as run tests like blood glucose, sugar, cholesterol and make more than 60 an hour.

Why would a chain pay a pharm $100k to check glucose and cholesterol when they can have an NP or PA do it for $70k in a health clinic next to the pharmacy?

 

[inquirer89]

I've had people that have taken in students tell me that students from the new school in Charleston are "idiots" compared to kids from WVU. Not my words...

But its only logical that the new school are going to graduate subpar pharmacists. Most have admitted classes with lower standards. Lesser candidates coming in...lesser candidates coming out...just how it is. It's why Harvard degrees are so prestigious....and why the future of pharmacy will be similar. Tiered schools....the WVUs and Ohio States and USCs of the world that have been around forever in tier 1....then the private schools that started in the 00s who get their candidates from the tier 1 school's leftovers in tier 2...

WVU, do you have any thoughts on Campbell U or worked with any alumni by chance? They're my top choice, and I've heard good things even though their students are overshadowed by neighboring top-tiered UNC. Campbell was founded in 1986 and was the "first pharmacy school established in US in 35 years." So if we were to talk solely on prestige, how would they rank for you?

 

[YiYaoYue]

Why would a chain pay a pharm $100k to check glucose and cholesterol when they can have an NP or PA do it for $70k in a health clinic next to the pharmacy?

and i wouldn't want to do that anyway... aren't pharmacist busy enough as it is? why would you give them more stuff to do... especially things that do not require extensive drug knowledge.

WVU, do you have any thoughts on Campbell U or worked with any alumni by chance? They're my top choice, and I've heard good things even though their students are overshadowed by neighboring top-tiered UNC. Campbell was founded in 1986 and was the "first pharmacy school established in US in 35 years." So if we were to talk solely on prestige, how would they rank for you?

I don't believe in WVU's way of tiering schools based on their history. UCSD is a recent school, but I'm willing to bet they have a top notch faculty and top tier students. I know plenty of students for that matter who would rather go to UCSD than USC. To some level I agree that certain "new" schools probably don't have as great of a faculty/organization/etc and have lower requirements (lower GPA/PCAT averages), so the students that graduate may not be as well prepared.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

WVU, do you have any thoughts on Campbell U or worked with any alumni by chance? They're my top choice, and I've heard good things even though their students are overshadowed by neighboring top-tiered UNC. Campbell was founded in 1986 and was the "first pharmacy school established in US in 35 years." So if we were to talk solely on prestige, how would they rank for you?

For schools outside of the Northeast, I usually just look at the average admissions stats. You can get those here.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I don't believe in WVU's way of tiering schools based on their history. UCSD is a recent school, but I'm willing to bet they have a top notch faculty and top tier students. I know plenty of students for that matter who would rather go to UCSD than USC. To some level I agree that certain "new" schools probably don't have as great of a faculty/organization/etc and have lower requirements (lower GPA/PCAT averages), so the students that graduate may not be as well prepared.

That may very well be true. Hell if I know what's going on in California. Around these parts, that rule seems to hold true every time. Though looking at the stats from last year, UCSD's average student had a 3.4 coming in....and at USC it was 3.54.

But just look at GPAs of some of the schools I'm choosing at random.

Older
WVU - 3.75
Ohio State - 3.5
Kansas - 3.62
USC - 3.54
Texas - 3.62

Newer
Incarnate Word - 3.3
Appalachia - 3.2
Charleston (WV) - 3.3
UCSD - 3.4
Hawaii - 3.2

I dunno...the lowest scores seem to mostly go to the newer schools (with the occasional outlier like Howard and Pacific), but the older schools appear to me to have higher standards for admission. I does appear that SD has higher standards than every other new school, so perhaps you're right.

That said, I"m sure an individual could get a similar education at many schools, etc, etc. But better candidates in seem to make better candidates out. And it didn't used to be that way like 8 years ago when it didn't matter which school you went to. But now I honestly think the pharmacists being churned out will get less and less impressive...leading to tiered schools.

 

[songaila]

3.3-3.2 is not exactly "horrible" in my book. Yes, the students are less academicaly sound than USCs and WVUs. However, if you look at dental schools, DO schools, they have very similar GPAS for the newer schools.

What do you expect, you open a new school and boom, the average GPA is 3.6?

I would argue that pharmacy schools are very competitive to get in now. I do not like the "tier" comparsions. Newer schools will always be lower scores so what's the point?

How about in the 1990s when pharmacy schools are not that "hot", I am pretty sure the admissions standards were not that high as today. So, are you saying that the pharmacists that graduated that didn't have the 3.6s and 92s on the pcat are not qualified to practice, please.

Chill. There are plenty of pharmacists positions around.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

3.3-3.2 is not exactly "horrible" in my book. Yes, the students are less academicaly sound than USCs and WVUs. However, if you look at dental schools, DO schools, they have very similar GPAS for the newer schools.

What do you expect, you open a new school and boom, the average GPA is 3.6?

I would argue that pharmacy schools are very competitive to get in now. I do not like the "tier" comparsions. Newer schools will always be lower scores so what's the point?

The point is that they likely will graduate lesser clinical pharmacists. Of course on an individual basis, it's different for each person. Sure a guy from JimBob's school of pharmacy might be the most gifted pharmacist on the planet...but as a whole...who would you rather have giving recommendations to a physician...?

How about in the 1990s when pharmacy schools are not that "hot", I am pretty sure the admissions standards were not that high as today. So, are you saying that the pharmacists that graduated that didn't have the 3.6s and 92s on the pcat are not qualified to practice, please.

And any pharmacist graduating with a BS back then will tell you they were way less prepared than today's graduates are today in handling clinical situations. That's just years of on the job training right there.

Chill. There are plenty of pharmacists positions around.

Yeah...for now...these new schools have us worried. If they turn out to be retail pharmacist mills, I probably couldn't care less, I suppose. That's not the market I'm competing in. That profession is already ruined, anyway.

We'll see. Hopefully you're right and the honey pot doesn't run dry.

 

[meister]

That will never happen...I doubt walgreens or cvs will ever consider this...its a liability issue!!!...techs and machines do not have the knowledge and intelligence one obtains from rigorous training and school that a pharmacist has...if they do this wags and cvs would be getting so many lawsuits...which can be revival for lawyers...so all you doom and gloom ple you guys can transfer to law school and be guaranteed a job...

I guarantee they'll push to allow techs to verify refills and other already checked orders. Beyond that I don't know, but pharmacists need to be aware and need to be careful. And law school is definitely no guarantee, new law grads are waaaay worse off than any health professional, unless they went to a top school.

If I were a med student I would be worrying about PA and NP from taking my job than worrying about the pharmacy world...my dos centavos

Oh believe me I don't need any reminders about the problems facing physicians. The DNP issue is a real threat. The reason I like posting in the pharmacy board is twofold:

1. I've worked in a pharmacy for six years and feel attached
2. RPhs still have a ton of power inside the pharmacy and haven't ceded much to technicians just yet

I feel like if I scare people here they'll become more aware and understand the relevant issues. The battle is already lost when it comes to NPs, so I can't really do much about that currently.

 

[JeremyE30]

Yeah...for now...these new schools have us worried. If they turn out to be retail pharmacist mills, I probably couldn't care less, I suppose. That's not the market I'm competing in. That profession is already ruined, anyway.

We'll see. Hopefully you're right and the honey pot doesn't run dry.

~60% of pharmacists work in retail. It is the majority of this profession, and it is what people think of when they hear the term pharmacist. Retail makes pharmacy strong, there just are not enough hospital or clinical jobs available for even half of the pharmacists. I would hope that the community pharmacy becomes more respectable like it has been over the past century, but it seems like the new schools and corporations are out to destroy that. We need strong community pharmacies to keep this profession alive. BTW, I am a hospital technician, and I have never stepped behind a retail counter, but I do know they are vital to the profession.

 

[YiYaoYue]

I guarantee they'll push to allow techs to verify refills and other already checked orders. Beyond that I don't know, but pharmacists need to be aware and need to be careful. And law school is definitely no guarantee, new law grads are waaaay worse off than any health professional, unless they went to a top school.

considering how many mistakes techs make daily, that is really not safe... a pharmacist should always make sure they didn't get the wrong drug (many drugs have similar names), the wrong dosage, expired, miscount, etc. Some veteran techs may be able to do some of that safely, but do you want a tech that just came out of high school to refill your drug without it being checked? As much as I don't like NPs taking over MD/DO jobs as you do, at least they have college education and professional education (although to a lesser degree). I wouldn't even want myself when I was just out of high school to refill my medication without a pharmacist making sure it was right. Heck I bet most people will request a pharmacist to check it if they see it happening.

 

[meister]

You're misinterpreting me: I certainly do not want an expanded "scope of practice" for technicians, nor do I want to see the role of pharmacists diminished. And certainly it is a false equivalency to say pharmacy technicians == PA/NPs, and I wouldn't argue that at all. I mean if pharmacy technicians are required to get a bachelor's degree then there'd be a legitimate argument for expanded scope, but as it is now there isn't. I mean everyone knows that the PTCB test is a joke.

But the ceding of professional autonomy is the issue and is the same in both situations. It's already pretty much happened to MDs, I'd like to see it not happen to RPhs. The good thing for RPhs is that there is no analogous technician union like there is for nursing. The nursing unions eat the AMA/AAMC for breakfast.

 

[YiYaoYue]

You're misinterpreting me: I certainly do not want an expanded "scope of practice" for technicians, nor do I want to see the role of pharmacists diminished. And certainly it is a false equivalency to say pharmacy technicians == PA/NPs, and I wouldn't argue that at all. I mean if pharmacy technicians are required to get a bachelor's degree then there'd be a legitimate argument for expanded scope, but as it is now there isn't. I mean everyone knows that the PTCB test is a joke.

But the ceding of professional autonomy is the issue and is the same in both situations. It's already pretty much happened to MDs, I'd like to see it not happen to RPhs. The good thing for RPhs is that there is no analogous technician union like there is for nursing. The nursing unions eat the AMA/AAMC for breakfast.

ahh sorry i wasn't clear... i wasn't trying to imply that you wanted techs to take on more roles, just arguing why it would be dangerous if it did happen. Sort of asking a rhetorical question to the corporations who may consider it to save money.

 

[confettiflyer]

Whoever mentioned the state law requirement that an RPh be on site hit in on the head. All it takes is a little lobbying and a pharmacist shortage as a pretext to augment the requirement. That said, reducing supply by closing schools is a double edged sword.

Look at family practice and MD's (or rather, the lack thereof). That shortage of practitioners has led a flourishing of midlevels filling the gap when people realized they don't want/need to pay an MD for a sore throat.

And WVU--agree that the opening of schools will lead to tiered schools, but the problem is the demand for the degree remains high, so at least for the next 7-10 years, a school's GPA will be a function of how long it's been open. USN had average GPA's below 3.0 when it first opened, and within a decade it shot up.


The real key is finding niches for pharmacists to practice in, not constraining supply. There will be an oversupply of pharmacists for at least 5-7 years sometime next decade, but the combination of students avoiding pharmacy school as a result and new places to practice will bring balance back to the force.

 

[genesis09]

UIC COP is celebrating its 150th anniversary in 2009. The school almost closed because of the Great Chicago Fire.
The retail pharmacies already tried for tech check tech in one state, and it failed some years ago.

 

[MCPharm27]

I wouldn't worry about the shortage of pharmacists filling up anytime soon. My state is currently 400+ short on pharmacists. Granted, the bigger citites like NY may fill up faster, but job security is still alive and well for us pharmacists without an end in sight.

One quarter of the pharmacists in US were over 55 in 2004, and it's only gotten worse. Pharmacists are seeing the same trends as MD's, where over the next decade there will not be enough students graduating to replenish the amount retiring. I've worked in managed care (PBM) for 3 years and have never seen my company fully staffed with pharmacists (and it is a top 100 company overall).

Not sure if someone has posted this article already....It came out about 2 weeks ago...
http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.com/drugtopics/Web+Exclusives/Pharmacy-recruits-offered-lucrative-incentives/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/565618?contextCategoryId=7633

 

[Hibiclens]

If Walgreens or whoever tries to bring up the discussion of tech-check-tech into retail...if it passed, wouldn't the third parties be aware of this and then use that against said chain when contract discussions come up. It would be a huge money maker for the chains up front...but I think 3rd parties would suck the profits out of that windfall in no time. Does that make sense?

 

[meister]

Yeah that's a good point Hibiclens and something I hadn't considered too carefully before. TPs of course are always looking to trim the edges. If they know that RPhs don't have to be on-site 100% of the time when medication is dispensed I'm sure they'd start cutting reimbursement, especially for the already laughable professional fee.

 

[RxWildcat]

...
One quarter of the pharmacists in US were over 55 in 2004, and it's only gotten worse...

Now 1/4 are over 59!!

Sorry, had to say that.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Now 1/4 are over 59!!

Sorry, had to say that.

 

[PharMed2016]

Professional degrees just don't have the power and prestige that they use to have. But, looking at pharmacy as a profession... it never really had any political clout to protect their interest like doctors do if you want to be honest about it. Especially, since Rh.P was considered a bachelors as oppose to a doctorate (sounds and looks better essentially).

However, the recent move from a Rh.P to a PharmD, gives the profession a little more prestige and with the pay increases relative to other professions (some more political power). This is balanced by the wholesale saleout of the profession to coporate companies.

A key idea that sums up this whole thing... supply and demand

If there were less schools opening up => there are less pharmacist => with less pharmacist there is a shortage to meet demand => there are more attractive incentives for pharmacist... yadadada


***Bottom line is... close all the new schools that are opening up and stop all those greedy admins from making a killing.


I'm sick of this whole thing already... oh well, as long as I make a decent living to support my family I'm fine. I mean comon, how many people can say they can earn 100K+ a year with only 6 years education?




******PS. Just wanted to point this out... someone mentioned nonprofit schools. That just means that the school runs at cost. However, you can still do that if you pay yourself the CEO or board whatever surplus cash to make your salary like 1 Million. to have an overall net of 0 The organization is still nonprofit. Thats how they do it in alot of organizations. So beware.

 

[meister]

Professional degrees just don't have the power and prestige that they use to have. But, looking at pharmacy as a profession... it never really had any political clout to protect their interest like doctors do if you want to be honest about it. Especially, since Rh.P was considered a bachelors as oppose to a doctorate (sounds and looks better essentially).

However, the recent move from a Rh.P to a PharmD, gives the profession a little more prestige and with the pay increases relative to other professions (some more political power). This is balanced by the wholesale saleout of the profession to coporate companies.

It's RPh, not RhP, fyi. RPh = Registered Pharmacist. Current PharmD graduates who obtain a pharmacist license are still considered RPhs, as that is a legal title. The PharmD degree itself without a license isn't really much of anything (although admittedly much more useful than an MD degree with no license or residency!) What you want to say instead of RPh is "BSPharm," as that is the old degree pharmacists used to obtain.

The shift to a doctorate degree did help with public perception a little, however, you're right about that.

 

[BMBiology]

I know we are in a recession and it is getting tough out there. I would like to make the following points:

(1) There has never been a shortage of pharmacists in big cities like LA but this applies to every profession, not just pharmacy.

(2) Pharmacy schools are opening left and right but it is the lesser of two evils. If the demand for pharmacists is not met, the laws will change and pharmacists will no longer have the sole authority to dispense. Look at what is happening in the dental and medical professions.

(3) The concept of off site final check is not new. Everyone who works in a retail knows how chaotic it is and I certainly do not think a tech, computer or a pharmacist sitting at home can ever replace a on site pharmacist.

(4) Off site refills is also not new. In California, Kaiser, VA and Long Drugs have off site refills and guess who they hire? Pharmacists.

(5) Pharmacists, whether they work in retail or mail order pharmacy, can only fill a certain number of prescriptions per day not only because of safety issues but also because the Board of Pharmacy restricts it. If a pharmacist fills 500 prescriptions per day and makes an error, not only is the pharmacist's license on the line but also the company and the pharmacist can be sued for gross negligence as you can read at this link:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...n-errors_N.htm

"Jurors in Illinois, Arizona and Florida have rung up more than $61 million in prescription-error verdicts against Walgreens (WAG) in the three previous trials."

The pharmacy profession is changing and sometimes, change scares people but at the same time, the change is creating new opportunies for pharmacists. This may be bad for those who just want to work in retails but retail is not for every pharmacists.

 

[BMBiology]

-

 

[PharMed2016]

It's RPh, not RhP, fyi. RPh = Registered Pharmacist. Current PharmD graduates who obtain a pharmacist license are still considered RPhs, as that is a legal title. The PharmD degree itself without a license isn't really much of anything (although admittedly much more useful than an MD degree with no license or residency!) What you want to say instead of RPh is "BSPharm," as that is the old degree pharmacists used to obtain.

The shift to a doctorate degree did help with public perception a little, however, you're right about that.

I stand corrected.

 

[maliciousdoc]

I've had people that have taken in students tell me that students from the new school in Charleston are "idiots" compared to kids from WVU. Not my words...

But its only logical that the new school are going to graduate subpar pharmacists. Most have admitted classes with lower standards. Lesser candidates coming in...lesser candidates coming out...just how it is. It's why Harvard degrees are so prestigious....and why the future of pharmacy will be similar. Tiered schools....the WVUs and Ohio States and USCs of the world that have been around forever in tier 1....then the private schools that started in the 00s who get their candidates from the tier 1 school's leftovers in tier 2...

Here are some of my comments on your points: You must always, and I mean always, remember that people make the schools, not the other way around. Top tier schools exist because the people who went there ended up doing something important (students), or people who go there are doing something important (faculty). Harvard is prestigious because it is the one of the first, if not the first university in the country. Too many people come to Harvard, and too many came out of Harvard - a lot of them do/did important things. On top of that, you are paying a huge tuition, and a big junk of it go into administrative services. These services including writing you a stellar letter of recommendation for getting you a good job, and hooking you up with their alumni and associated companies, etc.

If I were you guys, students, I would focus in my studies so that I would do something important. Remember: It's always the famous people that will be noticed, not the famous institutions. If you are great, you will make everything around great. If you suck, going to Harvard will not help you much. The name might help get you to places, but it's your skills and intelligence that keep you there....

If you had studied history, you would know that many great minds did not go to Harvard for school. Also, a lot of great minds come to Harvard, not came from Harvard. This applies to both students and Faculty at Harvard or any other institutions that are well-known. And if you have lived long enough, you would know that to be someone important, you not only need to be intelligence and work hard, you have to be at the right place at the right time. Harvard fosters much of those opportunities, far better than most others.

Schools are there to serve as a referee for society. Its sole purpose is to say, "yes, you have been there and done that". If you suck, you suck! If you are great, you are great. Now go get a degree and start doing something important.

 

[tlh908]

Here is why MD's can stop PA/NP from taking over their territory - MD's own their own practices and control hospitals. However, pharmacist have long ago sold out the profession to Wall Street. Wall Street is all about minimizing cost in order to raise profits. And like has been stated often - pharmacist at this point have only become expenses.
And yes, I do provide more than $100,000 in benefits to the health care communtiy. I can keep pts out of the hospital due to interactions. Can encourage use of medicine instead of surgery. I can stop people from needlessly going to the er. I stop coricidin overdoses. I demand a $100,000+ salary because I provide that much service to the community.
The problem is getting WalMart's of this world to pay for this service since they see pharmacy as a loss leader and product. No Walmart type is going to slap me on the back if I stop Mrs. Jones from taking Ibuprofen with her coumadin. But that is where my value is to the health system.

 

[Quiksilver]

Here is why MD's can stop PA/NP from taking over their territory - MD's own their own practices and control hospitals. However, pharmacist have long ago sold out the profession to Wall Street. Wall Street is all about minimizing cost in order to raise profits. And like has been stated often - pharmacist at this point have only become expenses.
And yes, I do provide more than $100,000 in benefits to the health care communtiy. I can keep pts out of the hospital due to interactions. Can encourage use of medicine instead of surgery. I can stop people from needlessly going to the er. I stop coricidin overdoses. I demand a $100,000+ salary because I provide that much service to the community.
The problem is getting WalMart's of this world to pay for this service since they see pharmacy as a loss leader and product. No Walmart type is going to slap me on the back if I stop Mrs. Jones from taking Ibuprofen with her coumadin. But that is where my value is to the health system.

I disagree, pharmacy as a whole does not have a clear direction in the future as a profession. What is going to carry pharmacy on? Is it the traditional role of a pharmacist in the community, or is going to lie in MTMs, or is it going to die? Where is this profession going? This is the problem. This is not what we have to worry about now, since I don't think that the 5 year outlook in pharmacy is all that bad.

You clearly indicate what choices pharmacy has done in the past, unfortunately, there is no way to reverse the fact that the independent pharmacies are few and far between, and starting one is more even more difficult. We sold out there, yes. At the same time, however, corporations need us as well. Pharmacists will not disappear from stores, imagine the bad press they would get should anything go wrong? It would be suicidal to any of them. Look what happens every time there is an error due to being understaffed? Pharmacy boards all over the country start talking ideas like "or every 100 scripts filled you need 1 pharmacist". Even still, with automation and robots and stuff, you will see a decline in pharmacy technicians.

As I said, the question that really matters is how are we going to expand, how are we to continue the need for pharmacists? How will we prove our worth, should our scope expand to be considered a part of the primary care team, along with NP, PA and general practice physician? Can we expand our scope within the community practice? Should we be even more involved in the hospitals? The key of longevity is going to lie in expanded scope of practice and how we define and shape that.

Who cares about what has happened, whats done is done. Lets look to the future to define our profession and expand our scope

 

[songaila]

Well, if it's not the chain store, you wouldn't get paid the 100,000 plus. I do agree that if you want to be an independent pharmacist, it's going to be tough.

Hospitals, Retain chains are all bidding for pharmacists. The more demand the better. I would not say that retails are pure evil. Yes, they are all about profits. However, they are also the main reason that pharmacists get paid so well(bidding wars).

Another thing about "a lot of new schools" opening. In california, yes. However, you look at states like arizona and new mexico. It's still wide open. Did some dude just open a thread about the ability to work over time in LA?

 

[confettiflyer]

Did some dude just open a thread about the ability to work over time in LA?

Yes...it's currently an overtime gravy train in places like Torrance, Inglewood, Compton, and East LA.

For those not privy to Southern California geography, these are places you probably don't want to be for any extended period of time. Consider your overtime differential "hazard pay."


So no, the sky isn't falling when it comes to pharmacy demand. BUT, if you want to be able to work in desirable retail locations (ie Orange County, San Diego), you'll have to prove yourself to be quick/efficient in "float pool hell."

 

[songaila]

well, as I stated in another post. That is not unique to pharmacy. I see UCLA and UCSF jobs sites are hiring pharmcists all the time.

There is a saturation of dentists in southern california but that does not mean there is no shortage of dentist.

I see the future of health professionals so bright that I need a sunglasses when I envision it.

 

[loo]

Die thread die!

It's amazing what a deep recession (hopefully not a depression) will do to people's self esteem.

Agree with Quicksilver. The profession will need to evolve. If you're in pharmacy school, concentrate on your studies. There will be jobs when you graduate, just prepare to adapt to change.

 

[loo]

well, as I stated in another post. That is not unique to pharmacy. I see UCLA and UCSF jobs sites are hiring pharmcists all the time.

There is a saturation of dentists in southern california but that does not mean there is no shortage of dentist.

I see the future of health professionals so bright that I need a sunglasses when I envision it.

You're preaching to the choir, here. Can we move on?

 

[tlh908]

Well, if it's not the chain store, you wouldn't get paid the 100,000 plus. I do agree that if you want to be an independent pharmacist, it's going to be tough.

You are right, if we didn't have chains, our income wouldn't be limited to 100k with night, weekend and holiday hours. Look at indys who make 200+, work only 9 hour days and 4 hours on Saturdays. Closed evenings, Sundays and holidays.
The reason we get 100k+ in retail is because the chains are bringing in 200k+ per pharmacist.

 

[tlh908]

You clearly indicate what choices pharmacy has done in the past, unfortunately, there is no way to reverse the fact that the independent pharmacies are few and far between, and starting one is more even more difficult. We sold out there, yes. At the same time, however, corporations need us as well. Pharmacists will not disappear from stores, imagine the bad press they would get should anything go wrong? It would be suicidal to any of them. Look what happens every time there is an error due to being understaffed? Pharmacy boards all over the country start talking ideas like "or every 100 scripts filled you need 1 pharmacist". Even still, with automation and robots and stuff, you will see a decline in pharmacy technicians.

As I said, the question that really matters is how are we going to expand, how are we to continue the need for pharmacists? How will we prove our worth, should our scope expand to be considered a part of the primary care team, along with NP, PA and general practice physician? Can we expand our scope within the community practice? Should we be even more involved in the hospitals? The key of longevity is going to lie in expanded scope of practice and how we define and shape that.

I think our future is as drug information experts. We know more about drugs than anyone else. Community pharmacists save money for the health care system every minute, maybe we need to do a better job of documenting it. In a way we are like oil changes - no one really appreciattes the service and paying for it until they suffer the results. We do save patients, doctors, insurance companies and employers money by our knowledge.
On one rotation is a hospital pharmacy we had to document every intervention and the hospital put a dollar amount on that intervention. I forget the numbers, but they were substantial.
Maybe we need a sign outside that said, "we have saved our customers $XXX,XXX this year". (And I don't mean saving money by using loss leading $4 generics)

 

[MCPharm27]

Now 1/4 are over 59!!

Sorry, had to say that.

ONLY if you are assuming all other variables constant (ie retirement, death, # pharmD's entering / leaving the field, ect)...but I get your point

BTW, I'm a HUGE Cats fan! (Got my BA from UK) Kudos on going to a great school.