Pharmacist shortage

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WVUPharm2007 said:
Hell, we got one of those in downtown Morgantown. I'm sure you can find one in the larger towns like Pittsburgh and Cleveland. And no Arabic folk? Uh...Dearborn?
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I completely forgot about Dearborn, I guess I never considered Michigan to be part of the rust belt. I just don't know if I can leave New York. I've lived here for 21 years, however I eventually want to get a house with a lot of land, like at least 100 acres and you're not gonna find that for cheap in the Greater New York area. Perhaps the Poconos would be a good option for me.
 
Sparda29 said:
I completely forgot about Dearborn, I guess I never considered Michigan to be part of the rust belt. I just don't know if I can leave New York. I've lived here for 21 years, however I eventually want to get a house with a lot of land, like at least 100 acres and you're not gonna find that for cheap in the Greater New York area. Perhaps the Poconos would be a good option for me.
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Come down to Southwest Missouri. It's really cheap to live there, and yay $1.53/gallon gas! 😀 Or you could join Mike in Morgantown, WV.
 
Sparda29 said:
I completely forgot about Dearborn, I guess I never considered Michigan to be part of the rust belt. I just don't know if I can leave New York. I've lived here for 21 years, however I eventually want to get a house with a lot of land, like at least 100 acres and you're not gonna find that for cheap in the Greater New York area. Perhaps the Poconos would be a good option for me.
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What about western NY?
 
This thread is pretty insightful/interesting, and I would like to contribute my opinion.

As a pre-pharm student over the past two years (and finally accepted to Nova), I have noticed that the requirements for these pharmacy schools have been increasing. Competition is getting so stiff that additional courses are being required for these schools and to just sit for the PCAT. Forget organic, the PCAT is now shifting towards biochemistry. Everything is changing. From what I have heard and seen from different admissions staff, it looks and sounds like these schools will be requiring a bachelors in the near future before you can apply (hell, the majority of Nova's accepted students now have a bachelors and thereby take the preference over a pre-req student). This is good because most current pre-pharm students, after attaining a bachelors, would rather go for medical or PA school. Same cost in terms of time and money, so why not? This will alleviate the competition and supply of pharmacy hopefuls. When I mention this to classmates, they get completely turned off to pharmacy and immediately mention medical, dental, or pa school. So as long as these schools continue to increase their standards to a bachelors, the supply of pre-pharmacy students will, in my opinion, diminish.
 
Sulilina said:
This thread is pretty insightful/interesting, and I would like to contribute my opinion.

As a pre-pharm student over the past two years (and finally accepted to Nova), I have noticed that the requirements for these pharmacy schools have been increasing. Competition is getting so stiff that additional courses are being required for these schools and to just sit for the PCAT. Forget organic, the PCAT is now shifting towards biochemistry. Everything is changing. From what I have heard and seen from different admissions staff, it looks and sounds like these schools will be requiring a bachelors in the near future before you can apply (hell, the majority of Nova's accepted students now have a bachelors and thereby take the preference over a pre-req student). This is good because most current pre-pharm students, after attaining a bachelors, would rather go for medical or PA school. Same cost in terms of time and money, so why not? This will alleviate the competition and supply of pharmacy hopefuls. When I mention this to classmates, they get completely turned off to pharmacy and immediately mention medical, dental, or pa school. So as long as these schools continue to increase their standards to a bachelors, the supply of pre-pharmacy students will, in my opinion, diminish.
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Thats a pretty good point. The current shortage was created around 1996 when most schools shifted to a 6 year program from a 5 year. I would expect the same thing to happen if the standards were changed requiring a bachelors degree. A several year decrese in applicants thus creating another "shortage".

Seriously though, 8 years of schooling to stand in a CVS for 14 hours and do nothing but count pills and verify prescriptions. There are not enough hospital jobs for every gradute. So someone is going to spend the time and considerable cost to end up at a CVS. I wouldn't do it.
 
I diagree on the requirement thing. It does not matter the requirement. They are still going to graduate 10,000 graduates each year. There may be a decrease in overall number of applicants. However, as long as there are more applicants than seats, the number of graduates are the same.
 
And that's a good point, but I think that if there is less of a supply of pre-pharm students, then less schools would open. If that happens, then I would think that whatever shortage is out there would continue at the pace we're at or get worse because the population is only going to increase from here on out.
 
songaila said:
I diagree on the requirement thing. It does not matter the requirement. They are still going to graduate 10,000 graduates each year. There may be a decrease in overall number of applicants. However, as long as there are more applicants than seats, the number of graduates are the same.
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Wrong. You would see the newer for profit PharmD diploma mills close or not have enough applicants to fill a full class. It happened when the PharmD became a requirement.
 
1. Tell me which pharmacy schools has trouble filling class. I assume it's your "prediction". With starting salary 100,000 plus, there will be plenty of takers. With the economy like this, there will be even more "pre-pharm" students. Do you have any link that new schools have trouble filling class?

2. Even in dentistry, there is a saturation in major cities. That does not mean that dentists can not find a job. That does not mean there is no shortage of dentists. There is plenty of shortage outside of the major cities. Even in california(saturation of pharmacists). Pharmacists are being paid 120G plus. I still see plenty of ads for pharmacists.

3. There are many links(search engine) that show that there is an even greater shortage in coming years. Also, with more than half of the class female, that may also fuel the shortage.
 
Nobody really knows. Honestly, we're all talking out of our asses. We've got recessions here and promises of universal health coverage there...mostly women graduating...baby boomers getting old...a bazillion schools opening everywhere creating an actual tiered caste of pharmacy schools for the first time ever...

All I know is that I got a cool job and I'm getting paid. Haha.
 
We had an official announcement last week and they basically says that there's no more shortage by the time we graduate.
I noticed also that Walgreens, CVS stc don't offer any incentive any more if you compare 2 years ago. Also they used to invite students for banquets, dinners, etc 2 years ago, and this year we had nothing!!!! Not even their usual freebies!!!
Stores are closing and they start closing earlier (5PM).
Kmart and Publix are laying off pharmacist now in Florida.
 
JackTran said:
We had an official announcement last week and they basically says that there's no more shortage by the time we graduate.
I noticed also that Walgreens, CVS stc don't offer any incentive any more if you compare 2 years ago. Also they used to invite students for banquets, dinners, etc 2 years ago, and this year we had nothing!!!! Not even their usual freebies!!!
Stores are closing and they start closing earlier (5PM).
Kmart and Publix are laying off pharmacist now in Florida.
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Good thing I like living in podunk areas, where most people do not want to live.
 
JackTran said:
We had an official announcement last week and they basically says that there's no more shortage by the time we graduate. Kmart and Publix are laying off pharmacist now in Florida.
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Where is the official anouncement? I heard many people talking about the supply will meet the demand in the future but I haven't heard about anything official or read an article about the potential oversupply.

Thanks.
 
JackTran said:
We had an official announcement last week and they basically says that there's no more shortage by the time we graduate.
I noticed also that Walgreens, CVS stc don't offer any incentive any more if you compare 2 years ago. Also they used to invite students for banquets, dinners, etc 2 years ago, and this year we had nothing!!!! Not even their usual freebies!!!
Stores are closing and they start closing earlier (5PM).
Kmart and Publix are laying off pharmacist now in Florida.
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Hmmm...this may have something to do with the current state of the economy right now. Don't think it is predictive of the long-term future, though.
 
It is obvious that we are about to meet a surplus of pharmacists. It is going to be the worst around 2011-2013 when the current pre-candidate schools start pumping out more pharmacists. There are 9 schools in pre-candidate status right now, and many more to come. They will not stop building private pharmacy schools because they know they can rip off kids for 150-200k.

New pharmacy schools are an assault on this profession. They are taking advantage of kids that were not good enough to make it into a more established school, loading them up with 150-200K worth of a mortgage, and then lying to them telling them they are going to have jobs waiting everywhere they go with sign on bonuses, etc which is not true.

Pharmacies are closing, cutting hours, laying off pharmacists, yet pharmacy schools are still opening and tellling people there is a shortage. How many schools have opened just in the 2000s? 20 something new schools? The PharmD will hit the dumpster with the JD and MBA if there is not an effort to stop the assault on this profession by money hungry schools (and students).
 
JeremyE30 said:
There are 9 schools in pre-candidate status right now, and many more to come. They will not stop building private pharmacy schools because they know they can rip off kids for 150-200k.

New pharmacy schools are an assault on this profession. They are taking advantage of kids that were not good enough to make it into a more established school, loading them up with 150-200K worth of a mortgage, and then lying to them telling them they are going to have jobs waiting everywhere they go with sign on bonuses, etc which is not true.
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Having learned about the potential surplus, are you changing your mind about attending pharm school next year? 😛 You guys can help resolve the surplus by not enrolling or enrolling and then dropping the classes the third day of school😀

Unlike you, my foot is in the door now and and I am almost finishing one semester. Therefore, I will keep going for spring🙂
 
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RNtoPharmD said:
Knowing about the potential surplus, are you changing your mind about attending pharm school next year? 😛 You guys can help resolve the surplus not refusing the enroll or enroll and then drop the classes the third day of school😀

Unlike you, my foot is in the door now and and I am almost finishing one semester. Therefore, I will keep going for spring🙂
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I am only one year behind you so we'll both have to deal with the surplus.

I changed my mind about attending new schools, I canceled my applications and interviews to the three new schools that I applied to, and only maintained my applications to Mercer and UGA. I don't agree with what they are doing to the profession so I don't want to give them any money.

I am still going to pharmacy school because it is truly what I enjoy, and I want to learn more and advance my career in the hospital pharmacy setting. I plan to keep my hospital job through school and then do a residency when I graduate. I don't think I will have any trouble finding a job, but the people in pharmacy school that just want to hold up a counter at a retail pharmacy are going to have to put more effort into their education and career choices.
 
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JeremyE30 said:
I changed my mind about attending new schools, I canceled my applications and interviews to the three new schools that I applied to. I don't agree with what they are doing to the profession so I don't want to give them any money.
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Oh, darn, I'm sure UCSD's new pharmacy school will ruin the profession with its bang up pharmacy program.

Oh, wait...
 
Coincidentally, 2011-2012 is when they predict that a large wave of pharmacists will be retiring. But this is some interesting economics. Businesses (and people wishing to enter pharmacy school) want it to be easy for them to enter an industry (or pharmacy school), and once in, they want it to be difficult for others to enter.

I seriously do not know what will happen in the future, but I believe that in every profession there is always room for those few who stand head and shoulders above their peers (hope I'm not wrong). That's the kind of pharmacist I would like to be.
 
JackTran said:
We had an official announcement last week and they basically says that there's no more shortage by the time we graduate.
I noticed also that Walgreens, CVS stc don't offer any incentive any more if you compare 2 years ago. Also they used to invite students for banquets, dinners, etc 2 years ago, and this year we had nothing!!!! Not even their usual freebies!!!
Stores are closing and they start closing earlier (5PM).
Kmart and Publix are laying off pharmacist now in Florida.
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Link? Source? Who made the announcement?

Here is one from Drug Topics... maybe that makes it more creditable than Idaho news.

Publish date: Jun 16, 2008

Much of that demand has been fed by the chronic shortage of pharmacists and rising compensation. In the latest Drug Topics salary survey (see "Take this job and love it," March 10, 2008), respondents reported an average annual salary of $107,403, up from $94,927 just a year ago. Incomes were up for pharmacists in every setting and all regions of the country, according to the survey. Pharmacy schools have made some steps to meet the increased demand. In addition to a few new schools that have begun to accept prospective pharmacy students, many schools have increased the capacity of their existing campuses to meet demand. A number of schools have also opened satellite campuses as a way to meet the interest of students, and, of course, adress the shortage of trained pharmacists. Since 1999 pharmacy schools have grown their capacity to educate pharmacy students by 44%, adding 3,400 seats.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...d/Article/detail/522778?searchString=shortage
 
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The BLS says we will see about 22% growth from 2006 to 2016 resulting in the need for about 53,000 new pharmacist. This is considering growth before the current economic crisis, so it is very possible that we will need less pharmacists for the next few years. All of the schools together are putting out about 11,000 student a year currently. From 2006-2016 there will be about 110,000 pharmacists created at the current rate. That looks like a 57,000 surplus or more to me.
 
songaila said:
Also, with more than half of the class female, that may also fuel the shortage.
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This was true when pharmacy school was cheap. Students are not going to be able to graduate with 150-200K in debt and just decide to work part-time. They will not make enough to pay those student loans, male or female. Most of the new students will be looking for full-time work especially the ones graduating from the $40K a year scam diploma mill schools. Only about 15% of pharmacists work part-time, and this will drop lower as tuition gets more ridiculous.
 
YiYaoYue said:
Link? Source? Who made the announcement?

Here is one from Drug Topics... maybe that makes it more creditable than Idaho news.

Publish date: Jun 16, 2008

Much of that demand has been fed by the chronic shortage of pharmacists and rising compensation. In the latest Drug Topics salary survey (see "Take this job and love it," March 10, 2008), respondents reported an average annual salary of $107,403, up from $94,927 just a year ago. Incomes were up for pharmacists in every setting and all regions of the country, according to the survey. Pharmacy schools have made some steps to meet the increased demand. In addition to a few new schools that have begun to accept prospective pharmacy students, many schools have increased the capacity of their existing campuses to meet demand. A number of schools have also opened satellite campuses as a way to meet the interest of students, and, of course, adress the shortage of trained pharmacists. Since 1999 pharmacy schools have grown their capacity to educate pharmacy students by 44%, adding 3,400 seats.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...d/Article/detail/522778?searchString=shortage
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Our Dean came to class one morning to announce it, there are numbers somewhere since not only the Dean mentioned about the surplus but also my preceptor. Since the announcement, everyone want to go to residency in my class b/c you can get secured jobs in a hospital.
 
JackTran said:
Our Dean came to class one morning to announce it, there are numbers somewhere since not only the Dean mentioned about the surplus but also my preceptor. Since the announcement, everyone want to go to residency in my class b/c you can get secured jobs in a hospital.
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I appreciate your Dean and preceptor for being honest to you guys. No one in my school have told us about the reality/prediction yet.
 
In my area, there are only a handful of openings at any given time for hospital positions. When one does open up, it is very competitive. No job is completely secure. I have heard of pharmacists being laid off at hospitals, too. If things are tough at a hospital, one of things they tend to cut is the overnight pharmacist. I volunteered at a hospital which got rid of its overnight pharmacists for financial reasons.
The true growth area for pharmacists is with the PBMs. I'm going to do a rotation with Caremark in the spring. Caremark has one of their mail order facilities near my house. It seemed like they are always hard up for pharmacists, but now, they are not hiring.
 
genesis09 said:
In my area, there are only a handful of openings at any given time for hospital positions. When one does open up, it is very competitive. No job is completely secure. I have heard of pharmacists being laid off at hospitals, too. If things are tough at a hospital, one of things they tend to cut is the overnight pharmacist. I volunteered at a hospital which got rid of its overnight pharmacists for financial reasons.
The true growth area for pharmacists is with the PBMs. I'm going to do a rotation with Caremark in the spring. Caremark has one of their mail order facilities near my house. It seemed like they are always hard up for pharmacists, but now, they are not hiring.
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Is your area in Chicago? I can understand that since it is a big city... I'm sure it is hard to get a position in any major city.
 
confettiflyer said:
Please tell us what schools are on your list of "$40k a year scam diploma mill schools" or what constitutes one, I'm curious...
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California Northstate is the first to hit the $40K mark, they are not even accredited so federal loans are not available. $160,000 plus higher private loan interest rates, plus interest accruing throughout schools, plus $10,000 average debt from undergrad, then if the students need any housing or emergency funds it will only add to the debt. I could see people hitting $250,000 in debt if you add it all up.

$40000 plus 9% accruing private interest = $43600 P1
$43600 + $40000 plus 9% interest = $91124 P2
$91124 + $40000 plus 9% interest = $142925 P3
$142925 + $40000 plus 9% interest = $199388 P4

$200,000!! for a PharmD, if that is not a scam then I don't know what is. Add in any other undergrad debts, housing, travel, application expenses, and you are in more debt than many MDs.

They are just feeding on the large applicant pool of CA and eating up the open pockets of naive students.

I would highly scrutinize any of the articles that are on-line about the "major shortage" of pharmacists that is non-existent. All of the new grads that I have spoken with said they are having a tough time finding full-time employment in retail.
 
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If this Power thingy from Wags is a huge hit in FL and it goes nationwide and other pharmacies emulate it, then not only is the pharm shortage over, but I would argue that the current number of pharm schools will soon produce a large surplus of pharms in the near future. That doesn't even factor in the new schools that are mushrooming everywhere.

I don't think that anyone should be surprised by this. If you work for for-profit, public companies, they will find everyway they can to squeeze more productivity out of you while figuring out how they can outsource your job. That's how American companies function these days.

With $4 generics and other pharm incentive plans, it seems to me that the pharmacy is now a loss leader for lots of stores such as Wal-Mart. If you're an expense rather than a profit-maker for any company, don't be surprised if they try everything they can to reduce your presence to the bare minimum.

I still think that it was a huge mistake for the pharm profession to go to the pharmD. It's even a bigger mistake making students have a BS before being admitted to pharm school. Is pursuing a pharm career worth it if students are graduating with $150-200k in debt, require 8 years post-high school, and entering a workforce that has a surplus which will drive down salaries?
 
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Taurus said:
I don't think that anyone should be surprised by this. If you work for for-profit, public companies, they will find everyway they can to squeeze more productivity out of you while figuring out how they can outsource your job. That's how American companies function these days.
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Pharmacy screwed up big by selling out to the major corporate chains. Pharmacists are only a number in the corporate world, a big expensive number. They don't care about your student loans or your job. They care about reducing costs to increase profit.

We need to start taking back the profession with independent pharmacies.
 
RNtoPharmD said:
Taurus, I agree with your points. I disagree with you signature lines talking about NPs. Estimated that 3/4 to 90% of services can be provided by NPs and PAs. You guys physician are also the expense in healthcare. If hospital/clinic can hire NPs at cheaper price, they probably will. Why should DNP be called "doctor"? They have earned "doctorate" degree.
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The physicians have the will, resources, and political clout to fight for their interests. Do the pharms?

AMA meeting: Physicians demand greater oversight of doctors of nursing

AMA/ASA on board to block use of USMLE content for nurse certification

The AMA is one of the largest PAC's in Washington, DC
 
:troll:

Why don't you start a new thread entitled, "Physicians Should Be the Only Ones Called Doctor Cause We Have Bigger Balls" and fight there...
 
JeremyE30 said:
Pharmacy screwed up big by selling out to the major corporate chains. Pharmacists are only a number in the corporate world, a big expensive number. They don't care about your student loans or your job. They care about reducing costs to increase profit.

We need to start taking back the profession with independent pharmacies.
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This is a good idea, but how (specifically) can independents compete with the big corporations in terms of insurance reimbursement, etc.?

Oh crap. Forgot this is being discussed on another thread...sorry.
 
loo said:
:troll:

Why don't you start a new thread entitled, "Physicians Should Be the Only Ones Called Doctor Cause We Have Bigger Balls" and fight there...
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He posted a good comment about situations in pharmacy, the RNtpPharmD commented on his sig and the dr. nurse Bull****.
Please guys keep this thread on-topic and not another Dr Nurse thread.
 
JeremyE30 said:
He posted a good comment about situations in pharmacy, the next poster commented on his sig and the dr. nurse Bull****.
Please guys keep this thread on-topic and not another Dr Nurse thread.
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You're barking up the wrong tree, buddy. We're saying the same thing.
 
Do not feed the troll and stay on topic 🙂
I'm in the Chicago market. In Chicago, many of the chains are trying to push Milwaukee, because there is a big shortage there for some odd reason. If I'm willing to go into SE Wisconsin, I'll get a salary increase.
Independents cannot survive because of declining reimbursements. In my township, there is only one independent pharmacy and 10-15 chain pharmacies. All the others were closed or were bought out.
 
JeremyE30 said:
California Northstate
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Okay I agree with you there...haha.

But do know the distinction between regional accreditation (which it does not have and is the problem in not qualifying for federal loans) and ACPE accreditation (which it has... pre-accreditation).

That school had warning signs galore last year.
 
confettiflyer said:
Okay I agree with you there...haha.

But do know the distinction between regional accreditation (which it does not have and is the problem in not qualifying for federal loans) and ACPE accreditation (which it has... pre-accreditation).

That school had warning signs galore last year.
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Wait a minute...a NON-ACCREDITED university is still able to get ACPE accreditation?!?!!
 
medicalcpa said:
Wait a minute...a NON-ACCREDITED university is still able to get ACPE accreditation?!?!!
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Negative, it can get pre-accreditation, but it cannot get full accreditation without regional accreditation (I believe that was a new requirement after the HICP debacle).

What happens is you run a chicken-egg problem....no school can enroll students without ACPE pre-accreditation, and no regional accrediting body will accredit a school with no students, which explains why the system is set up the way it is.

So a new school has three hurdles to clear, regional accreditation, ACPE accreditation, and rotation site placement.
 
okay everyone,
i am back, i see the seeds that i placed have grown and people are more aware and knowledgeable than ever of the future of pharmacists HOWEVER....

lets be practical, even if an increase of 10000 pharm students increase per year that graduates the general population will increase with it( maybe ever more)...so it dosent really matter if more students graduate, remember older pharmds have to retire, not all pharmds are indestructible and more people will populate thus will increase the need for their rxs ....

we are in a RECESSION ple, c'mon, mostly every occupation is feelling the pain, we have to take everything in consideration. the auto industry, banking, food and services are also taking a hit...even MD's should be worried, my uncle's and MD and he sees the future of the profession going downhill due to the increase of PA and NP schools mushrooming everywhere....even OD's dont you think lasik is also taking the hit on the market.....IF you look at it generally, every medical field is increasing schools and it may seem that we will have a surplus of everything!!!

I will be the first to say that it seems that all the negativity on pharmacy are being made by pharmacy students and pharmd applicants, if you guys are so worried than change your major...

If you are selfish and you chose pharmacy just for the money than you deserve not to have a job in the future....

Student loans are inevitable, not everyone has a mommy and daddy that can support us or a trustfund from grampa, and if you are one of the lucky trust fund babies...good for you


and JACKTRAN.....what school are you from and where did you hear the announcemt..very interesting, i want to learn more...

..and finally, as much as i support discussion of future problems in our profession, lets be practical and not troll around
 
JeremyE30 said:
I would highly scrutinize any of the articles that are on-line about the "major shortage" of pharmacists that is non-existent. All of the new grads that I have spoken with said they are having a tough time finding full-time employment in retail.
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What about other areas? I don't even want to do retail anyway. I plan on doing residency to go into either hospital or some specialty like psychiatric, nuclear, or sports.
 
If I were a pharm, I would be wondering how to prevent a decline in the profession. I don't see any obvious ways except to close down schools, which may or may not happen. There doesn't seem to be the equivalent of a strong AMA lobby in the pharm world to fight for your profession. During the 90's, the dentists closed down several schools, including one at Northwestern, because of a surplus of dentists in the market. Now, there's a demand for them and there's talk again of opening more dental schools. Is that what will happen? That pharms will have to ride out cycles of boom-and-bust, with schools opening and closing down depending on the cycle? I wouldn't like that as a pharm because it doesn't give me much security either in terms of a job or income. That's the major problem when the major employers of pharms are for-profit, public companies. There are no easy solutions. Pharms can work in the hospitals, but based on personal experience there aren't enough hospital jobs to go around. Retail probably will be the major employer of pharms for the foreseeable future.
 
i guess we will see what happens in the future...we can only hope for the best and expect the worse....in the mean times lets just enjoy our lives... as Americans we have been so capitalist that we have forgotten the important things other than money
 
fixed
qwead said:
I will be the first to say that it seems that all the negativity on pharmacy are being made by pharmacy students and pharmd applicants, if you guys are so worried than change your major...
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I tend to be overly negative, pessimistic, and antagonistic intentionally to get people's attention and to raise awareness. The worst thing to do is take action when it is already too late, or to do nothing at all.
qwead said:
If you are selfish and you chose pharmacy just for the money than you deserve not to have a job in the future....
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Another intent of mine is to discourage kids that have eyes full of dollar signs, the type of applicant that will do anything for money even if it degrades the quality of their profession.

YiYaoYue..... all areas will be hit, there will be jobs, but they are coming more competitive. Try your best and be active in your career to pump up your CV. Just don't assume that all Cs and an RPh license is going to land you a cush job in the near future.
 
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im confused...are those your comments below my quote, and why did you address it to yiyoaoyue
 
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