Pharmacy student quality going down?

[moissanite69]

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My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

I've seen this story plenty of times. In my class we are talking about verbal vs situated meaning where students either know information in the context of the class only (verbal) or are able to apply the knowledge broadly to many topics (situated). Some of the students with 4.0 have no common sense and no retention; the study for a test, memory dump, and call it a day. And why should they stop? It's benefited them for many years so far.

I guess this is what the rotations are for- pharmacy students to convert verbal to situated meaning in terms of their knowledge. There were several threads about this a while ago with students as well; it's not going to change. Some people just study great ways to study and they get in for that fact. It's the preceptor's job to help sort the information into ways that are useful for the student.

I've seen people here talk about the "official" way to do things and then the "normal" way to do things and all kinds of stuff like that. As a student I'd be very afraid and choke up more if I thought my preceptor considered me a low quality student. I know I can't please everyone but if I can't get a relationship with someone who is trained and designated as someone to handle students who don't know about the real world, then who can I rely on to learn the ropes?

Not getting on your back, it's just my observations from being on this thread for almost 9 months now doing research 😀. Obviously I can't say from experience just yet.

BTW, I'd love to round with the MDs and talk about medicine. In NC we have Clinical Pharmacist Practitioners who have some midlevel ability so I'd love to get in on that and see what sort of tests to use and what kind of things to look out for in patients when managing therapies.

 

[fiorio]

so hopefully after your rotation he/she will be better.
we have some complete idiots in my class, that i believe if they graduate, they will eventually harm the public.
so if your students are still incompetent by the end of ur rotation, please fail them for patient's sake.

My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

 

[30Percent]

You should rattle him some more so he'll prepare for your rotation. I have some friends who told me some of their classmates cried at certain rotations because the preceptors were hard and made them feel dumb.

 

[Its Z]

flunk him!

What school is he from? spill it.

 

[rxlea]

flunk him!

What school is he from? spill it.

Man, that student sounds ridiculous. But, I know a student from my "ZOMG top 10" school who doesn't know jack. What's sad is that this person did all the things they are supposed to do (work, ECs, 4.0/rho chi, whatever) to be competitive for residnecy, but they are an embarrassment to my school.

Seriously though... How can you not know how to calculate CrCl? W.t.f. That's a first year topic.

 

[moissanite69]

flunk him!

What school is he from? spill it.

I wish I could tell you but a lot of people in this SDN could be from that schools.

I don't mind the students not knowing much starting off rotations. But man, you don't know what Lovenox is and how it works...that's really messed up. I am not making this stuff up, btw. It seems like he doesn't even have motivation to learn and keeps complaining about how bad job market it (duh! we all know that).

 

[confettiflyer]

That's weird, did the OP keep his job or something? He said he was laid off from his hospital job as of 3/2011 and was unemployed seeking AZ/NV licensure as of 5/2011.

His previous hospital (Alvarado Hospital -- San Diego) was ~150 beds.

Hey OP, did you find a new job, or is this story from before March 2011?

 

[Its Z]

That's weird, did the OP keep his job or something? He said he was laid off from his hospital job as of 3/2011 and was unemployed seeking AZ/NV licensure as of 5/2011.

His previous hospital (Alvarado Hospital -- San Diego) was ~150 beds.

Hey OP, did you find a new job, or is this story from before March 2011?

You a damn stocker!

He found a new job. I had nothing to do with it. FYI.

 

[confettiflyer]

You a damn stocker!

He found a new job. I had nothing to do with it. FYI.

hey i was curious too...haha.

 

[crazybob]

You a damn stocker!

hey i was curious too...haha.

Paying attention on SDN = stalking

OP, is this the student's first rotation?

 

[ChaiTea]

My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

In all due fairness, if XYZ Pharmacy School's whole curriculum is based off of rote memorization, what do you expect? Memorizing every single bullet point on powerpoint slides is excellent for JUST acing the exams at hand. Like someone else said, this works well. Of course long-term memory recall flies out the window, and ask the student what they were tested on is akin to asking a brick wall.........

Blaming quality of students on the students is one thing, but if the quality of the curriculum is sub-par....well......the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. In my school, all the Rho Chi students are really excellent when it come to rote memorization and many of them have photographic memories. Ask them a week later about what they were tested on.....they might remember bits and pieces here and there, but nothing really substantial.🙁

 

[owlegrad]

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

1) CrCL I can do from memory (although if you want me to use adjusted body weight I would need to check my notes), the other 2 I would have to look up.

2) Scary. Even as a lowly 2PD I could discuss this at what I think is a pretty good level, including knowing from memory the difference in dosing for treatment vs prophylaxis plus renal adjustments for both. Knowing what it is and what it does is pretty basic anticoag stuff. Does he know what heparin is?

3) Is he stupid, or maybe just really bad under pressure? There is just no way not to know this.

4) Ouch, I could come up with a few if I needed to, but if you want a complete list I would need to consult a reference.

You list what he doesn't know - I assume there was stuff he did know?

 

[WhiteSnows]

In all due fairness, if XYZ Pharmacy School's whole curriculum is based off of rote memorization, what do you expect? Memorizing every single bullet point on powerpoint slides is excellent for JUST acing the exams at hand. Like someone else said, this works well. Of course long-term memory recall flies out the window, and ask the student what they were tested on is akin to asking a brick wall.........

Blaming quality of students on the students is one thing, but if the quality of the curriculum is sub-par....well......the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. In my school, all the Rho Chi students are really excellent when it come to rote memorization and many of them have photographic memories. Ask them a week later about what they were tested on.....they might remember bits and pieces here and there, but nothing really substantial.🙁

This is the big problem at my school also. They force you to learn every single point of the power point. By the end of your p3, most of the stuffs we learnt in P1,2 are probably gone. To the OP, asking random questions may not be the best way to assess how much student knows. It only tests how readiness a student can retrieve those information in the matter of seconds. Also,your student may be shy, or lack of confidence during rotation which may cause him to even forget more. If I am his preceptor, I would give him a chance to go home and review what I want him to know for this rotation. Hopefully, by the end of this rotation he won't forget about these things.

 

[moissanite69]

Yes, this is his first rotation. According to him, he used to work for Walgreens during school. What I'm really concerning about is his attitude toward the whole learning thing. When unable to answer questions from the pharmacist, you are supposed to review your materials and prove that you want to learn during your clinical clerkship. However, this is not the case. He has been acting as if he doesn't care. When I did my clinical rotations, I got very scared if I cannot answer a question from my preceptors. I feel like he is not taking his rotation seriously . Unfortunately, I am not the one responsible for his clerkship at my place, but someone else. I am just trying to teach him what a working pharmacist is like and how you ultilize your school knowledge into practical world. Apparently, the kid is not well prepared.

 

[p-rog]

A couple points:

1. if he's a P4 now, he got into pharmacy school when it was near the peak of it's competitiveness, so you can't blame it on the new schools diluting the applicant pool, not yet anyways.

2. This is his very first rotation, for some people it's a real tough transition to go from books to verbal information.

3. he was probably nervous

 

[owlegrad]

I take back my Lovenox comment. No way he ever saw that dispensed at Wags, and he could easily have forgot it from when he actually learned it.

 

[p-rog]

honestly when I started rotations, I wouldn't have been able to answer the flagyl or cipro question and I worked retail. I definitely wouldn't remember adjusted calcium and phenytoin level... Hell, I graduated and I had to look up the phenytoin formula this week studying for the Naplex. CrCl is understandable if he hasn't done it in a long time too. Not knowing lovenox is an LMWH is suprising though.

 

[gotdrugs]

EDIT: removed my post because after reading, realized wasn't constructive. At. all.

 

[deleted205891]

I will confess that I don't know some of those things off the top of my head (though I do know how to calculate CrCl), and I would expect at least half my class, including myself, to not know phenytoin dosing and pseudomonal coverage. Pharmacy school just teaches you to memorize things for tests, and as there are so many things to memorize, many things are quickly forgotten. We were told we don't need to learn coverage, as this will vary per hospital's antibiogram. I could guess a few abx that have coverage though. We also do not need to kinow dosing for abx and most other drugs. Rotations are there to reinforce what knowledge is really needed to be known in the real world. If your student learns all these things on your rotation, then he is closer to becoming a competent pharmacist, and you've done a great job.

As for rounds, depends on rotation. For what my school calls "hospital pharmacy practice" I don't expect to round. For my 2 acute care rotations I expect to round.

 

[gotdrugs]

A couple points:

1. if he's a P4 now, he got into pharmacy school when it was near the peak of it's competitiveness, so you can't blame it on the new schools diluting the applicant pool, not yet anyways.

2. This is his very first rotation, for some people it's a real tough transition to go from books to verbal information.

3. he was probably nervous

#1 isn't completely true.........what some think of as "new schools" have been around since 2000.

#2 and #3 are great points.

 

[gotdrugs]

To the students reading this thread, I'm curious.

What do you expect out of your clinical rotations and preceptors? I think one of the biggest problems out there are mis-matching of the expectations of the preceptors and the expectations of the students.

 

[WhiteSnows]

3) Not always feasible. If it's a general acute care rotation, hell even in speciality rotations, the student will need to know a myriad of things, as a preceptor you can't just tell them "go home and read everything about everything........or a little something about everything" Sorry at some point in your 4th year, you have to have some type of baseline knowledge base, or know where to look things up you don't know. What is truly frustrating as a preceptor is when a student recognizes he/she doesn't know something and still doesn't try to find the info. And hate to tell you, this happens all. the. frickin. time. And I"ve precepted multiple students from 6 different schools.

At this one point, I also agree. I really don't like this attitude. I told a couple of my friends to review stuffs during the summer. Try to get the stuffs we learnt organized, but most of them care more about vacation than investing into their professional career. And it is true that how terrible it is to have someone like this taking care of the patients. I hope you can speak this to my friends.

 

[p-rog]

#1 isn't completely true.........what some think of as "new schools" have been around since 2000. .

Well I know that when I got accepted to pharmacy school, they told us we were the most competitive class they ever had in terms of GPA and PCAT scores. How much could it have changed in one year?

 

[owlegrad]

Why, to get out early every day and get an A, of course. 😉


OK seriously - I hope my rotations prepare me to be a pharmacist. That means I hope to be shown how to do the job of my preceptor - if that means learning what drugs cover what bugs, so be it. I hope my preceptors don't expect me to know everything that I was ever taught in school though. I am fine with having to look stuff up, but having to know stuff off the cuff when I have never seen it in practice before would be tough. Basically, I hope my preceptors challenge me to learn what I need to know once I am the pharmacist. Also, I want to go home early and get an A.

To the students reading this thread, I'm curious.

What do you expect out of your clinical rotations and preceptors? I think one of the biggest problems out there are mis-matching of the expectations of the preceptors and the expectations of the students.

 

[gotdrugs]

Well I know that when I got accepted to pharmacy school, they told us we were the most competitive class they ever had in terms of GPA and PCAT scores. How much could it have changed in one year?

Did you ask for a link to back that statement? 😉

But a tad more seriously, 1) do you think your n=1 is indicative of the "quality" of the applicant pool as a whole? 2) hate to tell you, that's a statement told often to incoming classes, don't believe everything you hear - while it may have been true for your class in that instance, other times that very same statement is said when it isn't true (oh, yeah, there isn't a Santa Claus either ). 3) FInally, unless I missed it, the OP wasn't blaming it on the "new schools" blah blah blah, but the quality once they have hit rotations. And i can tell you, there is a difference now compared to 10 to 15 years ago. There are multiple reasons for this problem though, not just they students themselves.

 

[joetrisman]

I take back my Lovenox comment. No way he ever saw that dispensed at Wags, and he could easily have forgot it from when he actually learned it.

Eh, at my wags we have both brand and generic in stock at all times...

 

[p-rog]

Did you ask for a link to back that statement? 😉

But a tad more seriously, 1) do you think your n=1 is indicative of the "quality" of the applicant pool as a whole? 2) hate to tell you, that's a statement told often to incoming classes, don't believe everything you hear - while it may have been true for your class in that instance, other times that very same statement is said when it isn't true (oh, yeah, there isn't a Santa Claus either ). 3) FInally, unless I missed it, the OP wasn't blaming it on the "new schools" blah blah blah, but the quality once they have hit rotations. And i can tell you, there is a difference now compared to 10 to 15 years ago. There are multiple reasons for this problem though, not just they students themselves.

haha you're right, they probably did lie to us. But I do think it was still very competitive to get into pharmacy school overall 3-4 years ago.

As for the multiple problems, I would say that pharmacy school seems to have gotten increasingly complex and demands more and more of your time now then it did a decade ago. All the IPPEs, immunizations, new drugs, etc. It's harder for students to retain the info as they just binge and purge for tests. Also, it's harder for them to work and get the real world experience to reinforce what they learn in schools.

 

[kvl1027]

My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

You are going to get all types, If it is his first rotation you can cut him some slack for the lack of knowledge. However, is his attitude sucks about then you have to address that.

There should be some baseline knowledge, I mean every 4th year pharm. student in rotations should know what Lovenox is used for as well as dosing for prophylaxis vs. treatment. MOA, well if he didn't know it, I would expect him to come back tomorrow and explain it to me.

You are there to teach the intern, sure you can't teach him everything, there are some things he will just need to know. But if the student has a good attitude and knows how to find the information quickly and you are not having to re-teach the same shiz everyday, then you are doing your job.

 

[gotdrugs]

haha you're right, they probably did lie to us. But I do think it was still very competitive to get into pharmacy school overall 3-4 years ago.

As for the multiple problems, I would say that pharmacy school seems to have gotten increasingly complex and demands more and more of your time now then it did a decade ago. All the IPPEs, immunizations, new drugs, etc. It's harder for students to retain the info as they just binge and purge for tests. Also, it's harder for them to work and get the real world experience to reinforce what they learn in schools.

Please........

That's a lame excuse. Sorry, it is. I'm all for "it's not just the students' fault" But to act like it's "harder" now than 10 to 15 years ago is bullchit. Since you have been in the profession for 4 years........all of them as a student, maybe a tech also on the side (it appears from your posts)........I don't think you can give as much insight compared to one who has been in it much longer than you and has seen it from multiple angles, student, tech, professor (yes, professor), retail pharmacist, hospital pharmacist, preceptor.

Sorry, I'm going to pull rank on this one.

While it's multi-factorial and hard to pin down a sole root cause of the issue, I will tell you what could easily be the number one problem that led to our current discussion regarding the "quality" of students if you want to know.

 

[MindOverMatter]

This guy probably was nervous, and didn't want to say the wrong thing in fear of looking stupid. So instead he just said nothing.

I really hope every P4 knows how to calculate CrCl, knows what Lovenox is, at least a few drugs that cover Pseudomonas, etc.

 

[p-rog]

Please........

That's a lame excuse. Sorry, it is. I'm all for "it's not just the students' fault" But to act like it's "harder" now than 10 to 15 years ago is bullchit. Since you have been in the profession for 4 years........all of them as a student, maybe a tech also on the side (it appears from your posts)........I don't think you can give as much insight compared to one who has been in it much longer than you and has seen it from multiple angles, student, tech, professor (yes, professor), retail pharmacist, hospital pharmacist, preceptor.

Sorry, I'm going to pull rank on this one.

While it's multi-factorial and hard to pin down a sole root cause of the issue, I will tell you what could easily be the number one problem that led to our current discussion regarding the "quality" of students if you want to know.

Go ahead and pull rank, but I was echoing statements from my professors and preceptors, not my own ideas. Believe it or not, they do seem to keep piling on the material. I've heard the same things from attendings about Med School. They never take away material or requirements, only add them on.

Anyways, what is your answer to the number one problem? Students are dumber/lazier than they were 15 years ago, despite the fact that admissions standards have skyrocketed over the past decade (excluding the past couple years) ?

 

[genesis09]

Lovenox, while not common, I dispense several times a week. It is always stocked.

Metronidazole and Cipro are dispense many, many times a day. How could a 4th year not realize that alcohol and metronidazole do not go together. The majority of my techs know that because they hear it all the time.

 

[owlegrad]

Lovenox, while not common, I dispense several times a week. It is always stocked.

Metronidazole and Cipro are dispense many, many times a day. How could a 4th year not realize that alcohol and metronidazole do not go together. The majority of my techs know that because they hear it all the time.

Wow I had no idea Lovenox saw that much outpatient use. I just checked at work and we do not stock it and I have never seen a prescription for it.


Cipro is an absolute no brianer for anyone who has ever, ever worked drop off and had to type the directions over and over and over.

 

[Kazekage]

The pharmacy school i graduated from is finally enabling interactive learning. I think hands on approach/visual/immersive learning is the best way to learn. That being said, here is my opinion on the reasons for creating poor quality students (many covered by other members):

A lot of these old fart teachers with Ph.D's dont give a **** about interactive/immersive/visual learning. Too much work for them, they are close to retiring anyhow.

The problem also has its roots from middle school to high school education. Most of it is copying notes/ auditory learning, which in studies has prooven (i dont know where i read it, but you can look it up) is THE WORST form of learning. You only retain 10% of what you learn anyways.

I never went to class in my pharmacy school, only when i needed to take tests, and when it was mandatory to come to accumulate points/take a pop quiz. Some teachers were good (in which i did attend class and found it benefitial to learn), most were average, rest just sucked. Learning at my own pace, style was enough for me to earn B/C grades overall in my class. I could have put more effort, but i didnt give a ****.

I wouldnt have known these equations off hand either: adjusted calcium, adjusted dilantin. I dont think that was a fair question. He could have looked it up for you.

I would have known creatinine clearance, because that stuff was talked about, and tested to death

If he works retail, he would not have known dopamine either, but he could have looked it up for you, I would not have known either.

I think you should have asked him "what class of antibiotics" cover pseudomonos, so he would not have been bogged down with naming specifics.

When it comes to counseling points, he could have mentioned general side effects: diarrhea, drink with lots of water, take it the same time each day, finish the whole course (which he did mention), other specific ones he can look it up for u.

Try asking him broad general questions,..with certain class of drugs,..then you can go into detail with more specific drugs.

 

[phathead]

Wow I had no idea Lovenox saw that much outpatient use. I just checked at work and we do not stock it and I have never seen a prescription for it.

Been dispensing Lovenox several times a week for the last several years. I used to be the "Lovenox billing expert" a few years ago.

A lot of it depends on how the school prepares the student. My school expects you to memorize everything, from random little formulas to inane aspects of a reaction.

Would they be good at Pharmacy Jeopardy? You bet your ass they would be. Are they good at patient care? Not in a million years.

 

[Sparda29]

My hospital (size = 140 beds) usually has 2-3 PharmD students from different schools for clinical rotations. We have one student from University X this time. He followed me yesterday while I was doing my clinical shift. After a few hours observation, he asked "So you don't make rounds with doctors?" . I said, "Not really. You make round at bigger hospital". But seriously, do students expect to make round with MDs when working at the hospital setting?. Then during the time, I tried to quiz him and test his knowledge. This is what I found:

• The student doesn't know how to calculate Adjusted Calcium Level, Adjusted Dilantin level, and even Creatine Clearace.
• The student doesn't know what class and mechanism of action of Lovenox (a 4tH YEAR student?)
• He has no idea what dopamine is used for.
• He has no idea what antibiotics cover Pseudomona.

Then I thought he would probably be more familiar with retail setting. I asked him what's the normal dose of Cipro for UTI. He was just silent. Finally, I asked him how to counsel patient with Flagyl po. He only said one point "Take the whole course". That was it....

I was just shocked. How do we have students like this? He's gonna be graduating next year. Scary.

Yes, I expect to round with MDs when I have a hospital rotation. I prefer that and staying around reading charts, seeing patients on the floor than ever setting foot inside the hospital pharmacy other than compounding IVs. I have zero interest in order entry, filling/labeling orders, delivering, refilling Pyxis machines, etc.

Creatinine clearance is something everyone should know, however calculating calcium and phenytoin, we were not taught that or if we were, I wasn't paying attention, and those things have never came up on rounds or any of my rotations before.

Lovenox, dopamine, pseudomonas, he/she should know that stuff but usually once you answer something wrong and if you're nervous, you'll probably lose all confidence and won't be able to answer anything else even if you know it.

 

[Sparda29]

Yes, this is his first rotation. According to him, he used to work for Walgreens during school. What I'm really concerning about is his attitude toward the whole learning thing. When unable to answer questions from the pharmacist, you are supposed to review your materials and prove that you want to learn during your clinical clerkship. However, this is not the case. He has been acting as if he doesn't care. When I did my clinical rotations, I got very scared if I cannot answer a question from my preceptors. I feel like he is not taking his rotation seriously . Unfortunately, I am not the one responsible for his clerkship at my place, but someone else. I am just trying to teach him what a working pharmacist is like and how you ultilize your school knowledge into practical world. Apparently, the kid is not well prepared.

A tip. This is something one of my preceptors did with me and the other student that was with me. If we didn't know something that she asked us or were not sure about something, she had us look it up and write out a drug information question report about it and we had to submit it by the end of the day.

This is another question I have for anyone who has been on rotations or works as a preceptor. Why is it that the school puts the Director of Pharmacy as the contact person/preceptor and the person who does grading, but what ends up happening is that you almost never see this person and you're following around their underling for the whole rotation?

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

3 things:
1. Had a P4 not know what Claritin was
2. I know multiple people who were accepted with 2.7 GPAs and midrange PCAT scores
3. It's know wonder doctors don't take us seriously with all the dumb questions they get from dumb pharmacists.

 

[CUpharmD2013]

3 things:
1. Had a P4 not know what Claritin was
2. I know multiple people who were accepted with 2.7 GPAs and midrange PCAT scores
3. It's know wonder doctors don't take us seriously with all the dumb questions they get from dumb pharmacists.

hmmmm

 

[PharMed2016]

I take back my Lovenox comment. No way he ever saw that dispensed at Wags, and he could easily have forgot it from when he actually learned it.

I've seen Lovenox dispensed plenty of times in retail but it's always like "wow." It's cheaper than inpatient heparin so I guess there is a point.

And before someone comes and says no way Lovenox is cheaper, I'm including cost of hospitalization and tests.

 

[crazybob]

3 things:
1. Had a P4 not know what Claritin was
2. I know multiple people who were accepted with 2.7 GPAs and midrange PCAT scores
3. It's know wonder doctors don't take us seriously with all the dumb questions they get from dumb pharmacists.

Did you ask him/her what generation Antihistamine it was? I could see someone not remembering that for a second. Or not having to know if it wasn't that important.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Good point Sparda brought up with the Drug Info Question report for everything that he doesn't know. I hated that on rotations, but it actually stuck with me. Once this guy realizes that if he doesn't answer the question right off the bat he'll have more work to do, I bet he starts shouting out answers.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

hmmmm

Clearly a grammatical error while typing on my iphone illustrates how dumb I am. Go bury your head in your books and make a fool of yourself on rotations you lowly student.

 

[RX CARE]

I see some real embarrassing grammatical errors from some of our "professional pharmacists" while judging a student.🙄

 

[gambit78]

I am reminded of in school when an honors Rho Chi classmate of mine and I were having a conversation outside pharmacy topics, and I mentioned the Pareto Principle. He asked, "What's that?"

We had just covered it two weeks prior in Pharmacy Administration class.

I just see this division of retail, clinical, and the rest for so much, that I don't think it's worth scolding students. If you ask a cardiologist to name ten chemo drugs, they wouldn't know. Do I have to look at CrCl in my retail pharmacy line of work? Nope. And it hasn't crossed my path in the 8yrs I worked there.

 

[njac]

To the students reading this thread, I'm curious.

What do you expect out of your clinical rotations and preceptors? I think one of the biggest problems out there are mis-matching of the expectations of the preceptors and the expectations of the students.

I will attest to this.

I have a feeling right now my students are frustrated that I don't give enough structure and I'm frustrated that they have minimal initiative.

 

[KARM12]

I will attest to this.

I have a feeling right now my students are frustrated that I don't give enough structure and I'm frustrated that they have minimal initiative.

Agree...I've had students who want everything structured and I have had ones that want it less structured.

I think sometimes students forget that the student's rotation isn't the only thing the preceptor has going on. I wish I could spend all day teaching you, but I can't. There are things I need to do to keep my job. Some of the learning needs to come on your own. Look up things you don't remember, read about a topic in your down time...

 

[Sparda29]

I will attest to this.

I have a feeling right now my students are frustrated that I don't give enough structure and I'm frustrated that they have minimal initiative.

Personally, I prefer that I have a meeting in the beginning of the rotation of expectations, due dates for projects, and other things. But asides from that, I would like to work independently as much as possible and see the preceptor on a minimal basis.

My internal medicine rotation was the ideal of what I was looking for. Basically, I show up between 6AM-9AM (preceptor doesn't arrive until 9AM), breakfast, pre-round, etc. Pop into the pharmacy first so someone knows that I'm there, then pop back around 9AM so preceptor knows I'm there. Go on rounds at 9:30-12PM, work on charts and whatnot till 1PM, lunch, go to the residents lecture hall and sit in on a class the residents are getting, work on projects, check labs and charts again, hang out at the nursing stations, leave around 5PM-7PM.

I spent more time around the attending physician on the team than I did with my preceptor who was the clinical pharmacist, he just introduced me to the team on Day 1 and then I was independent after that.

 

[p-rog]

Anyways, what is your answer to the number one problem? Students are dumber/lazier than they were 15 years ago, despite the fact that admissions standards have skyrocketed over the past decade (excluding the past couple years) ?

still waiting for the real answer Z. I'm honestly curious...