PharmD/MBA

[PharmaFresh]

Wondering what everyone's opinion on PharmD/MBA programs. Most of the threads I've seen on this topic are 5-10 years old, as pharmacy has changed in that time I was wondering about the current atmosphere, do you think that an MBA would enhance a person's career prospects when combined with the PharmD, or is the extra year of school and tuition not worth it? Especially in the context of industry or nonretail settings

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[MindGeek]

Is this short enough for you @ChalupaBatman86 or should I re-matriculate?

 

[RPh Who]

I was able to use my MBA classes as credit for pharmacy electives. All the points above are important considerations, but you should also consider the personal benefits of a MBA. In the absence of a formal education or mentoring, most PharmD grads have a relatively poor understanding of personal finance and investment. Its nice to take advantage of time by hitting the ground with financial intelligence instead of riding the learning curve.

 

[BMBiology]

I think it is a waste of time and money unless you already have pharmacist experience work and you are planning to move up the corporate world.

I see students graduating with both degrees and they have no work experience. The majority of them earned it online. What kind of networking are you going to get by doing it online at some no name school?

You can learn about finance by yourself. You don't need to pay $30 k to watch some videos online. You can do that for FREE.

 

[Lnsean]

I honestly think it's a waste of time and many pharmacists will try to get an MBA because they're bored with their job and feel stuck with golden handcuffs to where they are. It's the wrong reason to do an MBA. Unless you can get into a top20 school, I wouldn't waste time or money on it. You'll just really be distracting yourself from whatever it is that you truly want out of life: change careers OR stay put and enjoy/promote other hobbies and interests outside of work.

 

[PharFromNormal]

I think it is a waste of time and money unless you already have pharmacist experience work and you are planning to move up the corporate world.

I've met some "corporate pharmacists" at the big chains. Most, very few exceptions, had experience and were considered experts at their respective chain before going corporate. Their comments on the matter were... If they wanted an outsider to their business that's an MBA, they don't have to be a pharmacist. A license or pharmacy degree isn't required to work in a corporate office. If they want someone that already knows all the fine details of their pharmacy's operations and wants to improve/manage it, they don't need an MBA. An MBA isn't required to know how their business is/should run.

 

[BenJammin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: an MBA without experience and access to the alumni network is absolutely useless.

 

[MatCauthon]

As Mark Twain said 'Don't let school get in the way of your education.' There is a point in our lives we must step away from the ivory towers and step into the real world school of hard knocks. Most business skills are best learned through practical experience than anywhere else. Find ways to get practical experimence rather than being spoon-fed by a masters program.

 

[RPh Who]

My intention was not to stir up animosity. My philosophy is that education is a tool. You can put a great tool in an idiot's hands and it can produce mediocre results. You can put a blunted tool into a brilliant person's hand and they can produce wonders. As with anything in life it all comes down to the underlying qualities of the person using the "tool." No need to get hung up on whether or not there are extra letters on a resume.

Edit: I think we are all on the same page in that the person, experience, and desire to exceed are the game changing factors. No, a MBA isn't a golden ticket anywhere, but OP still needs to decide whether or not it is worthwhile for him/her in relation to their own goals.

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

Yes, we do need more threads on PharmD/MBA.
I just finished mine last month so I will impart some advice and important questions to ask...

Why?
You have to do it because you want to do it, not just because it looks good on your C.V. You have to do all the hard work. You have to do it because you want to add to your toolbox of skills, not just get a credential. Remember how in undergrad everyone going into PharmCAS was a Bio Major, Chem Minor? Every new person going into the pharmacist job market is a Pharm.D. Do you want to differentiate yourself or not? I am not a big fan of this article (n=17), but find this to be intriguing.

Do employers really care?
I think they do. [Disclaimer: I have not been hired as a pharmacist yet but literally just graduated]. It has come up during every interview I've had, phone or in-person. Pharmacy recruiters remembered me by sight as the dual MBA student at the career fair each year. I think recruiters and hiring managers are both looking for it and curious about it. They always ask why the MBA? Some assume that it's because I want to start my own pharmacy or work in industry, which are not the case. That reminds me, do not get an MBA if you want to open your own pharmacy. MBA's are for being able to jump into a Fortune 500 company as a manager or accountant with no training wheels. The MBA teaches you the language, an eye to navigate the entire business world, and skills to operate under the context of GAAP, IFRS, Sarbanes-Oxley, etc. I'm not knocking pharmacy ownership at all, I'm just saying that an MBA is not designed for that. I've been asked about what leadership skills I can bring to them or how I can improve their processes. Not all B-schools teach courses on Leadership Development, and very few teach a course exclusively on Lean/Six Sigma Process Management. See if your program includes these.

Sometimes you just need something different...
I was worried that I would be torn in two between the two programs but I was not. I found my MBA program to be very rewarding. While I was a C+/B- student in P-school I never earned less than an A- in any MBA course. My MBA success motivated my Pharm.D. perseverance. My MBA studies were a refreshing respite from P-school material [Disclaimer: My opinion would be less cheery if I had to go overload credit-wise]. In P-School everyone is a pharmacy student/intern. In B-school everyone has a different job/experience/career or is a 4+1 straight from undergrad. There is so much to learn from each other, and again so refreshing compared to pharmacy school. I was worried that accounting would be my downfall but it was not. Accounting is a language, not hard math. Once you know the language, finance and integrated analysis fall into place. Strategy and Marketing building on each other, Leadership Development builds on Organizational Behavior, etc.

Do the P-School and B-School calendars line up?
Your P-school calendar will likely not line up with B-school calendar since it likely follows the undergrad calendar so you may miss out on some needed breaks. If you have two tests to study for you will have to 'drop everything' for P&T/D&D/or Systems Pharmacology, at the expense of a B-school test. Pharmacy students are high-achievers and it goes against the grain to not study for something enough on purpose.

How long will it realistically take you?
I was dual-enrolled and finished both in 5 & 1/2 years. My didactic pharmacy credit load was lighter and more spread out (9-13 P credits x 8 semesters versus 15-18 P credits x 6 semesters). This allowed me to take 3-6 credits a semester since Spring 2012 during didactic, 3 credits once during APPE year, and had 12 credits left-over to do post-Pharm.D. (so 6 during summer while I passed boards for my home state, and 6 in fall while I passed 3 other state's MPJE's). Your PharmD. credit load may not be spread out, but they might put a year of 36 MBA credits in between P1 & P2 Year, or After P3 but before APPE year, or after APPEs.

How long are you willing to delay entering the workforce?
If getting my MBA awarded took 2 years after getting my Pharm.D. instead of just 7 months I would not have considered it. If I had to spend a year out of the workforce to get it it's a tougher call but likely. If they tout that the MBA takes just one more year added on to the Pharm.D than that's fulltime 15-18 MBA credits each semester and may include so many exemptions that you'd have to be a Business minor. You won't be able to work that +1 year either but can pass boards during so you could.

Do you have undergrad coursework that will exempt you from MBA foundation courses?
If I had minored in business instead of philosophy I would have exempted 6 courses at my B-school instead of 2. That would have let me graduate with both in 5 years, instead of an extra summer and fall. Another B-school I got accepted to would not accept any because my undergrad's B-school was not AACSB accredited. Accreditation is important! AACSB schools are not supposed to accept undergrad coursework older than 10 years, or more than 6-9 credits of MBA level transfers. [P.S. Make sure your undergrad foundation course exemptions are documented by your Dean/Associate Dean on dual-entry not when your graduation application is due!]

Is it really a dual-enrollment PharmD/MBA?
Do some Pharm.D. courses count toward your MBA concentration? Can MBA courses count as Pharm.D. electives? Can you try an MBA course or two with a tuition waiver for no added cost?

Is the B-school AACSB accredited?
AACSB accreditation is extremely important! AACSB MBA-ers know the difference and look down upon non-accredited MBA-ers. Be wary because AACSB Member is not the same as AACSB Accredited. Any school can become a member in anticipation of becoming accredited simply by paying dues. You need to check with AACSB to make sure they are Accredited. You can check here.

Is the dual PharmD+MBA program accredited by you state's department of education?
If not you will not be able to borrow loans for one of them. For federal loan purposes you can only be enrolled in one degree program at a time, Pharm.D., MBA, or PharmD/MBA. If it is under review you can still borrow for your PharmD but may have to payout of pocket for MBA classes until the dual program is accredited and you are officially enrolled in it.

How much will it cost you?
By my calculations adding the MBA to my Pharm.D. cost me $21,510. That was just on tuition but includes the annual tuition increases. Practically you may never recoup your investment unless you make it to DM or the C-suite. Again, you have to get it because you want to add to your skills.

Are there other dual students?
At my school I was one of only 4 or 5 Pharmacy students in the MBA program across 3+ years. You will likely be the 1 pharmacy student among 24 MBA students in each class. Only dual PharmD/MBA students will know your struggle. You will have an advisor in each school, but only you and your dual colleagues will truly know what is going on. P-School professors and preceptors may be jealous or envious that in 6 months/1 year you will have an MBA and a Pharm.D. while they only have the Pharm.D. [and valuable work experience]. If you require an extensive support network and numerous study groups being dual may not be conducive for you unless your school has a lot of dual enrollees. Do you want to be a trailblazer?

Do you work well in teams?
P-school is about individual test taking and individual success (or failure). B-school requires group projects and teamwork constantly. AACSB requires that B-schools incorporate and evaluate teamworking skills. Big term projects, even your capstone may be in the hands of a group and not just you. If you are a self-learner or don't play well in the sandbox it's going to be rough.

Applying...
Do they want you to take the GMAT or will they count your PCAT and established P-school GPA? Do they want you to get new recommendation letters or can they pull them from your original P-school application. Can you even start the MBA coursework if you don't have a Bachelor's or have less than 120 credits?

One step at a time...
Petition to take a course or two of the MBA as electives for the Pharm.D. if you can. If you are successful and enjoy it then pursue the dual-enrollment. [Tip: Unlike non-remedial P-school courses, MBA courses meet during the summer so even if you didn't care about getting an MBA, doing your 6 credits of P-school electives during a summer or two would lighten your fall/spring P-School load considerably].

Good Luck!

Do any of those MBA classes teach you to get your point across with way less words?

 

[Jbrl]

Wondering what everyone's opinion on PharmD/MBA programs. Most of the threads I've seen on this topic are 5-10 years old, as pharmacy has changed in that time I was wondering about the current atmosphere, do you think that an MBA would enhance a person's career prospects when combined with the PharmD, or is the extra year of school and tuition not worth it? Especially in the context of industry or nonretail settings

Experience in a specific sector or a related area, e.g PBM jumping to industry, trumps any MBA you'll get from a pharmacy school without said experience. Instead of taking those extra courses, spend those extra 5 hours per week to gain experience and contacts. Be an auto-didact and create your own homework - e.g I will cold call/email 3 people every week to learn more about nontrad fields. A friend of mine in pharm school did just that to get an internship in healthcare investment banking. You can bet the business sector will value that more than a piece of paper that actually didn't teach anything about financial modeling, slide decks and brown nosing while working 100hr weeks.

An MBA is only as good as its network. You need to be relatively sure the dual degree will be beneficial in some specific capacity and complements - not supplants - experience, but most aren't. Hospital and retail don't need highly ranked MBA (check their C-suite's pedigrees), but what's the rush? If you're meant to get there, they will sponsor you.

 

[OSU2017]

Wondering what everyone's opinion on PharmD/MBA programs. Most of the threads I've seen on this topic are 5-10 years old, as pharmacy has changed in that time I was wondering about the current atmosphere, do you think that an MBA would enhance a person's career prospects when combined with the PharmD, or is the extra year of school and tuition not worth it? Especially in the context of industry or nonretail settings

Working as a pharmacist with a PBM in a role like "Industry Relations" will have the most impact with a PharmD/MBA.. See job description below from a PBM called "Medimpact":

• Responsible for identifying, developing, negotiating rebate contract opportunities, and for executing comprehensive rebate agreements with prescription drug manufacturers for all lines of business (Commercial, Medicare, Medicaid, Health Exchange) to support the rebate objectives of the company and it clients;
• Develops strategic and tactical solutions to optimize rebate yield and reduce drug spend through a combination of contract design and coordinated execution of formulary management and clinical / utilization edits;
• Acts as the company’s primary point of contact for the pharmaceutical industry, routinely meeting with pharmaceutical manufacturers to establish and maintain functional business relationships, acquire industry intelligence, and to gain information on trends, product pipelines, innovative contracting methods, and other business items that facilitate enhanced contracting leverage and rebate strategies;
• Manages and provides instruction, direction, and leadership to contracting staff;
• Collaborates with Drug Information to develop formulary strategies and negotiates aligned rebate contract terms to capture rebate opportunities and support low net cost propositions. Monitors and anticipates market trends, evolving business conditions, client needs, and relevant governmental changes that impact rebate and formulary strategies; develops methods and strategies to capitalize on or mitigate the impact of those changes and communicates with the appropriate internal and external stakeholders;

http://chj.tbe.taleo.net/chj01/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MEDIMPACT&cws=1&rid=3431

 

[PharFromNormal]

Working as a pharmacist with a PBM in a role like "Industry Relations" will have the most impact with a PharmD/MBA.. See job description below from a PBM called "Medimpact":

• Responsible for identifying, developing, negotiating rebate contract opportunities, and for executing comprehensive rebate agreements with prescription drug manufacturers for all lines of business (Commercial, Medicare, Medicaid, Health Exchange) to support the rebate objectives of the company and it clients;
• Develops strategic and tactical solutions to optimize rebate yield and reduce drug spend through a combination of contract design and coordinated execution of formulary management and clinical / utilization edits;
• Acts as the company’s primary point of contact for the pharmaceutical industry, routinely meeting with pharmaceutical manufacturers to establish and maintain functional business relationships, acquire industry intelligence, and to gain information on trends, product pipelines, innovative contracting methods, and other business items that facilitate enhanced contracting leverage and rebate strategies;
• Manages and provides instruction, direction, and leadership to contracting staff;
• Collaborates with Drug Information to develop formulary strategies and negotiates aligned rebate contract terms to capture rebate opportunities and support low net cost propositions. Monitors and anticipates market trends, evolving business conditions, client needs, and relevant governmental changes that impact rebate and formulary strategies; develops methods and strategies to capitalize on or mitigate the impact of those changes and communicates with the appropriate internal and external stakeholders;

http://chj.tbe.taleo.net/chj01/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MEDIMPACT&cws=1&rid=3431

Education and/or Experience

Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm D.) from an accredited School of Pharmacy; 5-10 years of related experience or equivalent combination of education and experience.

Nothing requiring an MBA... I will say the person that will excel at THIS position should likely have or know many industry contacts and will have worked in this space before for some time either for another PBM or on the phrma side. This is not an entry level position and an MBA is also not required.

 

[PharFromNormal]

So... If you had the chance to get an MBA for free (paid for by your employer) would you? Imagine yourself 5 years out of pharmacy school at this point knowing the current market.

The only catch is you have to pay back what was paid back within the last 12 months if you choose to leave (ie do MBA over 3 years, cost 15K total. year 1 5K, year 2 and 5K year 3, you leave 4 months after finishing, and all you owe is the 5K. Laid off or fired, you're clear.

Depends on the circumstance - sure the degree is free (let's even throw in a little more for room and board) but do I also have the opportunity cost of not working my salary for two years?

I'd also only do it if I was going to a top tier b school which is going to amount to more like $200k for the whole thing. The perks come from the network, any motivated fellow can learn how a P&L works or get a subscription to Harvard business review.

If I was leaning towards getting into an industry focused less on pharmacy, or a corporate position that was less to do with the pharmacy and more to do with the "business" of our pharmacy business I'd consider it. Regardless of how you think the market is going, the pharmacy business will always be around and for that reason I probably won't see myself going elsewhere. Those who will succeed will be the ones making the changes in our industry, mitigating any impact, or adapting their business models to change. People will be needed to do all 3.

 

[panasoniku]

I would still be working full time while taking classes. I would lose the chance to pick up extra shifts, however I haven't picked up a single shift in the last 6 months. It would not be a top 10 school.

If its not a top 20 school then will having a MBA give you a promotion at work? If it doesn't then you will need to reevaluate the purpose of the MBA.

 

[BMBiology]

So... If you had the chance to get an MBA for free (paid for by your employer) would you? Imagine yourself 5 years out of pharmacy school at this point knowing the current market.

The only catch is you have to pay back what was paid back within the last 12 months if you choose to leave (ie do MBA over 3 years, cost 15K total. year 1 5K, year 2 and 5K year 3, you leave 4 months after finishing, and all you owe is the 5K. Laid off or fired, you're clear.

Only if you think it will help you get a seat at the big boy table (senior VP, president, CEO).

You don't need an MBA to become a district manager, regional VP, work in managed care.

The sad part is the pharmacist with an MBA and working in retail.

Experience is the most important thing. Next is networking. You don't need an MBA for either one.

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

I have never seen an MBA that can be done part time with a retail RPH's schedule in 3 years for $15k

 

[PharFromNormal]

I have never seen an MBA that can be done part time with a retail RPH's schedule in 3 years for $15k

Oh I'm sure there are certainly cheap online MBAs that are this cheap if not cheaper. Some probably can be done at your own pace when available.

 

[OSU2017]

Education and/or Experience

Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm D.) from an accredited School of Pharmacy; 5-10 years of related experience or equivalent combination of education and experience.

Nothing requiring an MBA... I will say the person that will excel at THIS position should likely have or know many industry contacts and will have worked in this space before for some time either for another PBM or on the phrma side. This is not an entry level position and an MBA is also not required.

Without an MBA, what sorts of skill sets do you think are needed for this sorts of job?

Do you think I can work retail for a while and then transition?

 

[ancienbon]

It is waste of time and money. I am glad i did not get the Mba as my school offers the combo.

 

[PharFromNormal]

Without an MBA, what sorts of skill sets do you think are needed for this sorts of job?

Do you think I can work retail for a while and then transition?

First of all an MBA isn't a skill set but to answer your question on what skills this person would optimally have... Strong contract negotiatiator, strong business communicator/story teller, financial analysis, self-starter, excellent sales presentation skills, people management and leadership skills... Maybe more. I don't work for this company and I'm not the one hiring.

Retail experience probably isn't going to do it alone. Many have some retail experience but that has little relevance to this position unless you know enough of the right people where your experience is less of a factor. I see this coming from a managed care or industry sales track that has more front line b2b experience vs. direct patient facing roles.

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

Without an MBA, what sorts of skill sets do you think are needed for this sorts of job?

Do you think I can work retail for a while and then transition?

You get a job as a prior authorization pharmacist to get your foot in the door. Most of them are lazy prima-donnas. If you aren't a lazy prima-Donna it is pretty easy to work your way up.

 

[OSU2017]

You get a job as a prior authorization pharmacist to get your foot in the door. Most of them are lazy prima-donnas. If you aren't a lazy prima-Donna it is pretty easy to work your way up.

Can you expand? Is this based on personal experience? Anecdotal? Seriously thinking about doing PA pharmacist first...

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

Can you expand? Is this based on personal experience? Anecdotal? Seriously thinking about doing PA pharmacist first...

There are pretty much zero qualifications to get the PA pharmacist job. You might have start as a temp thru an agency. They hire retail pharmacists. I have first hand knowledge of this business, that's all I really want to say. Much more opportunity for advancement then retail.