PhD fully funded then DVM vs. DVM first

[starscollidehi]

Bit of a convoluted story on my end, but basically:

Got into DVM last year at school A that had a nice PhD in my interest area. Declined DVM (scared of finances with DVM/not mature enough), so forfeited my opportunity to do DVM/PhD at that school.
Instead, went to another vet school B to do PhD in an area more far removed from my interests. Also applied to DVM/PhD here, got into only DVM. Wasn't sure I'd get into DVM/PhD here, and preferred PhD at school A, so also applied to PhD at school A.

Now:
1) I can either pursue a DVM at school B upcoming year, possibility of combined program, but research here is not a great fit for my interests. Worst case, I have to leave after DVM and pursue PhD later.
2) I can move to school A to start with PhD (in my interest area, pretty "ideal"), received NIH T32 funding, and try to do DVM after/simultaneous with last year PhD.

What I want?
Go back in time and start with DVM, then do PhD at school A. Missed the boat for that. Still DVM>PhD, but want both as my career goal is clinician-scientist. I have MSc, so my research interests are pretty set at this point. School A definitely fits research interests better, and have T32 funding. But have to wait to get into DVM/uncertainty of that.

Curious if any in the DVM world have any advice. I recognize I sort of messed up if you will, but it has only strengthened my resolve for what it is I want to do.
Thanks!

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[supershorty]

simultaneous with last year PhD.

As someone in the last year of a PhD, doing vet school simultaneously would not be doable and I encourage you to not even plan on trying to double dip on both in the same year.

I think for loans purposes, it might make more sense to do the PhD first if you're really sure that you want to do both degrees. But you will have to consider that it *may* be harder to get postdoc positions if you've been out of research and not publishing for the 4 years you're in vet school versus getting them immediately postgrad if you did the PhD second.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As someone in the last year of a PhD, doing vet school simultaneously would not be doable and I encourage you to not even plan on trying to double dip on both in the same year.

I think for loans purposes, it might make more sense to do the PhD first if you're really sure that you want to do both degrees. But you will have to consider that it *may* be harder to get postdoc positions if you've been out of research and not publishing for the 4 years you're in vet school versus getting them immediately postgrad if you did the PhD second.

This is an important consideration.

OP, is your primary area of research something more clinical/veterinary related, or is it translational/bench/basic science oriented? Where do you see yourself in the future (i.e. faculty at a veterinary school with mixed research and clinical duties, or a primary researcher at a more translational institution with more funding)? A postdoc will be much more beneficial, if not an outright necessity, for the latter type of position depending on your area of research.

My personal opinion is to not mix the two degree paths unless you lean more towards the former type of position. I did my PhD after residency and it was by far the best decision for me, because I was able to focus 100% of my effort on my research without a clinical degree interfering time-wise. An issue I see crop up with a lot of combined programs is the intensity and quality (i.e. likelihood to be highly funded by major grant-giving organizations) of the research that they steer combined program participants into. Not to say the more clinical/veterinary oriented research is not valuable (it definitely is) but it is an uphill battle funding wise, publication quantity/quality wise, etc that can hamper you if your goal is to be a primary researcher.

Sidenote - you also mention T32 funding. T32 funding is only guaranteed for three years, unless something major has changed that I don't know about. You then mention doing the DVM part ""after/simultaneous with the last year of the PhD" - do you mean the fourth year? Because I hate to say it, but doing a PhD in ~4years is essentially unheard of (which yes, is BS but that's unfortunately true) - and that is without the complications that mixing a DVM curriculum into that fourth year would bring. The DVM curriculum will be FAR too intense for you to be doing much, if any, research or writing in your spare time - you would need to be essentially almost done before starting. I've known far too many people who literally had to come BACK to finish their PhD AFTER the vet school portion of combined programs because they had no time to make any significant progress.

 

[supershorty]

T32 funding is only guaranteed for three years, unless something major has changed that I don't know about.

Nope, nothing's changed there. My T32 funding just ended this year after 3 years.

And as someone who did mix the degree paths, I strongly agree with not mixing them The only reason I've been able to do the kind of quality of research I want to do, while still being able to graduate in 4 years (knock on wood), was that I've really had one of these projects going since before my PhD formally started.

OP, is your primary area of research something more clinical/veterinary related, or is it translational/bench/basic science oriented? Where do you see yourself in the future (i.e. faculty at a veterinary school with mixed research and clinical duties, or a primary researcher at a more translational institution with more funding)? A postdoc will be much more beneficial, if not an outright necessity, for the latter type of position depending on your area of research.

Also I'm just quoting this to reiterate it because it's important.

 

[starscollidehi]

This is an important consideration.

OP, is your primary area of research something more clinical/veterinary related, or is it translational/bench/basic science oriented? Where do you see yourself in the future (i.e. faculty at a veterinary school with mixed research and clinical duties, or a primary researcher at a more translational institution with more funding)? A postdoc will be much more beneficial, if not an outright necessity, for the latter type of position depending on your area of research.

My personal opinion is to not mix the two degree paths unless you lean more towards the former type of position. I did my PhD after residency and it was by far the best decision for me, because I was able to focus 100% of my effort on my research without a clinical degree interfering time-wise. An issue I see crop up with a lot of combined programs is the intensity and quality (i.e. likelihood to be highly funded by major grant-giving organizations) of the research that they steer combined program participants into. Not to say the more clinical/veterinary oriented research is not valuable (it definitely is) but it is an uphill battle funding wise, publication quantity/quality wise, etc that can hamper you if your goal is to be a primary researcher.

Sidenote - you also mention T32 funding. T32 funding is only guaranteed for three years, unless something major has changed that I don't know about. You then mention doing the DVM part ""after/simultaneous with the last year of the PhD" - do you mean the fourth year? Because I hate to say it, but doing a PhD in ~4years is essentially unheard of (which yes, is BS but that's unfortunately true) - and that is without the complications that mixing a DVM curriculum into that fourth year would bring. The DVM curriculum will be FAR too intense for you to be doing much, if any, research or writing in your spare time - you would need to be essentially almost done before starting. I've known far too many people who literally had to come BACK to finish their PhD AFTER the vet school portion of combined programs because they had no time to make any significant progress.

I see myself as a clinician at a veterinary hospital who splits her time between clinic and research (but mostly research). The research I'll be doing for the T32 is translational, but uses clinical patient populations so I suppose it's sort of in between? It isn't strict basic research on lab animals though, no. For this type of research, a DVM is good to have.

Thank you for all the replies so far! I think it's more that, I'm nervous letting go of this DVM opportunity at a really good vet school for a PhD (though I know I'll want a PhD regardless), as there is uncertainty of getting accepted to DVM at the PhD school. And I have to wait *hopefully 3-4 years to even start DVM... Though I've really tried honing in on my research interests these past years, and this PhD is so close to "ideal"...

Thank you for all the replies so far!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I see myself as a clinician at a veterinary hospital who splits her time between clinic and research (but mostly research). The research I'll be doing for the T32 is translational, but uses clinical patient populations so I suppose it's sort of in between? It isn't strict basic research on lab animals though, no. For this type of research, a DVM is good to have.

Thank you for all the replies so far! I think it's more that, I'm nervous letting go of this DVM opportunity at a really good vet school for a PhD (though I know I'll want a PhD regardless), as there is uncertainty of getting accepted to DVM at the PhD school. And I have to wait *hopefully 3-4 years to even start DVM... Though I've really tried honing in on my research interests these past years, and this PhD is so close to "ideal"...

Thank you for all the replies so far!

Hmm, alright then.

So a couple of things to consider. And this is my own impression having been on both the vet and human med/academia side of things, in both research and clinical, so YMMV.

Firstly, the majority of DVM faculty at academic institutions who have a mixed appointment (i.e. clinical/teaching, and research) have research projects that focus on veterinary things, or at least small-scale animal models of human disease. The reason being that well-funded, translational research requires such an immense time commitment that it is extremely difficult to mix clinical duties and research projects and be successful in both. Something has to take a back seat, or something has to be on a smaller scale or have a lot of collaborators. Another question - do you see yourself more as principal investigator, or as a collaborator? The latter would be easier to pursue as a DVM/PhD (which is what I am - my PhD was animal models of disease and correlating it with data/samples from human patients with the same disease and most of my current research is collaborative in nature - no WAY would have I have time to be a PI).

If your research is primarily with clinical patient populations without a laboratory animal model component, I suppose I'm struggling to see why a DVM would be helpful at all. A DVM, as much as I hate to say it, does not really impress NIH and other large funding agencies. It is a clinical degree first and foremost. If your goal is to be a PI in high-end research, the DVM is looked at more as a feather in your cap - your PhD, postdoctoral experiences, publications, and ability to bring in large-scale funding are FAR more important. Nothing I learned in my DVM program helped me at all in my research, lol. Precisely zero.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what major advantage do you think getting the DVM will get you? If you want to do primarily research, I would take the PhD all day long. Especially if the option is do the PhD, then to the DVM.....by the time you finish the DVM you will be ~4 years out of research and it will be difficult to market yourself back in to a post-doc with a publication gap like that. Of course, if you want to be, say, faculty at a veterinary school that's another option, but your likelihood of working with human patients is pretty low in that scenario.

If you want research to be a big part of your career, you have to be in a good lab with a lot of money that helps you churn out quality publication. Have you looked into the general publication history and funding of each research program? Is one better than the other? Of course the research has to be a good "fit" in terms of your interests, but the other things are very important to. No use doing a PhD in something you love if you are only going to get 1-2 papers out of 5 years of work.

 

[starscollidehi]

Hmm, alright then.

So a couple of things to consider. And this is my own impression having been on both the vet and human med/academia side of things, in both research and clinical, so YMMV.

Firstly, the majority of DVM faculty at academic institutions who have a mixed appointment (i.e. clinical/teaching, and research) have research projects that focus on veterinary things, or at least small-scale animal models of human disease. The reason being that well-funded, translational research requires such an immense time commitment that it is extremely difficult to mix clinical duties and research projects and be successful in both. Something has to take a back seat, or something has to be on a smaller scale or have a lot of collaborators. Another question - do you see yourself more as principal investigator, or as a collaborator? The latter would be easier to pursue as a DVM/PhD (which is what I am - my PhD was animal models of disease and correlating it with data/samples from human patients with the same disease and most of my current research is collaborative in nature - no WAY would have I have time to be a PI).

If your research is primarily with clinical patient populations without a laboratory animal model component, I suppose I'm struggling to see why a DVM would be helpful at all. A DVM, as much as I hate to say it, does not really impress NIH and other large funding agencies. It is a clinical degree first and foremost. If your goal is to be a PI in high-end research, the DVM is looked at more as a feather in your cap - your PhD, postdoctoral experiences, publications, and ability to bring in large-scale funding are FAR more important. Nothing I learned in my DVM program helped me at all in my research, lol. Precisely zero.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what major advantage do you think getting the DVM will get you? If you want to do primarily research, I would take the PhD all day long. Especially if the option is do the PhD, then to the DVM.....by the time you finish the DVM you will be ~4 years out of research and it will be difficult to market yourself back in to a post-doc with a publication gap like that. Of course, if you want to be, say, faculty at a veterinary school that's another option, but your likelihood of working with human patients is pretty low in that scenario.

If you want research to be a big part of your career, you have to be in a good lab with a lot of money that helps you churn out quality publication. Have you looked into the general publication history and funding of each research program? Is one better than the other? Of course the research has to be a good "fit" in terms of your interests, but the other things are very important to. No use doing a PhD in something you love if you are only going to get 1-2 papers out of 5 years of work.

Oh sorry, by clinical I meant animal clinical populations. Not human clinical! So that's why a DVM is necessary, because I'd have to be a collaborator to have access to animal patients without a DVM

 

[supershorty]

So that's why a DVM is necessary, because I'd have to be a collaborator to have access to animal patients without a DVM

Do you think that being a collaborator in this situation, though, is worth the 4 years of vet school + the student loans that will accompany it?
There's a lot of research that goes on at my institution with PhDs collaborating with clinicians within the vet school for studies with the patient population.

For what you want to do, it sounds to me like you could do it without the DVM as long as you worked to make the connections to do so, if I'm understanding correctly.

 

[starscollidehi]

Do you think that being a collaborator in this situation, though, is worth the 4 years of vet school + the student loans that will accompany it?
There's a lot of research that goes on at my institution with PhDs collaborating with clinicians within the vet school for studies with the patient population.

For what you want to do, it sounds to me like you could do it without the DVM as long as you worked to make the connections to do so, if I'm understanding correctly.

I see, the thing is I really want to be able to be a clinician as well, which you cannot do without DVM...a career as solely a researcher to me feels..."dry." So it seems like I want both. It's almost like DVM>PhD at this point, but not sure I'd find a similar PhD at current DVM school, or if burning bridges with PhD program I got into is worth it...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I see, the thing is I really want to be able to be a clinician as well, which you cannot do without DVM...a career as solely a researcher to me feels..."dry." So it seems like I want both. It's almost like DVM>PhD at this point, but not sure I'd find a similar PhD at current DVM school, or if burning bridges with PhD program I got into is worth it...

It sounds like an academic type job where you would be able to both perform clinical duties and research would be the most ideal for you. Most of these jobs are relegated to veterinary schools, where there is a large teaching component as well (whether it be working with the fourth year students or lecturing the earlier classes). Not to mention the mentoring of students in your lab. Industry by comparison would have much less of that, but it would be difficult to have any clinical work unless you moonlighted or did relief. How do you feel about teaching?

In my opinion, whether you do the DVM or PhD first is dependent on how serious you want the research component of your career to be, as we mentioned before. Are you going to be seeking large-scale NIH grants for projects directly applicable to humans, which would require significant time investment and allow clinical work only on the side? Because then I would suggest DVM first, and then PhD +/- postdoc so you can enter the grant field fresh with recent publications. Or, on the other hand, would you be content with smaller projects focused on benefits for veterinary species +/- some potential human applications, with clinical duties taking up >50% of your time (in which case more recent clinical experience would be more beneficial).

 

[WonderingStudent]

It sounds like an academic type job where you would be able to both perform clinical duties and research would be the most ideal for you. Most of these jobs are relegated to veterinary schools, where there is a large teaching component as well (whether it be working with the fourth year students or lecturing the earlier classes). Not to mention the mentoring of students in your lab. Industry by comparison would have much less of that, but it would be difficult to have any clinical work unless you moonlighted or did relief. How do you feel about teaching?

To provide a real-world example, my current summer research mentor is a clinician and professor at my school and spends 4 days a week in the lab with one day in the hospital seeing patients with the occasional class to teach during the semester. But it can also be helpful as she is able to get notified if there is a client-owned patient that comes who meet the criteria for the research she is working on.

 

[starscollidehi]

It sounds like an academic type job where you would be able to both perform clinical duties and research would be the most ideal for you. Most of these jobs are relegated to veterinary schools, where there is a large teaching component as well (whether it be working with the fourth year students or lecturing the earlier classes). Not to mention the mentoring of students in your lab. Industry by comparison would have much less of that, but it would be difficult to have any clinical work unless you moonlighted or did relief. How do you feel about teaching?

In my opinion, whether you do the DVM or PhD first is dependent on how serious you want the research component of your career to be, as we mentioned before. Are you going to be seeking large-scale NIH grants for projects directly applicable to humans, which would require significant time investment and allow clinical work only on the side? Because then I would suggest DVM first, and then PhD +/- postdoc so you can enter the grant field fresh with recent publications. Or, on the other hand, would you be content with smaller projects focused on benefits for veterinary species +/- some potential human applications, with clinical duties taking up >50% of your time (in which case more recent clinical experience would be more beneficial).

I see what you mean here, but even if I do the PhD first, isn't it better for my research career to have a PhD that is in the area of interest I want to continue my research in, with T32 funding, which I have? Would doing the PhD after the DVM and residency/intern still be better for my research career, considering that I may not get a PhD with T32/funding that is as similar to my interests in the future? Just trying to weigh the valence of this PhD with the timing component. Thanks!

 

[supershorty]

I see what you mean here, but even if I do the PhD first, isn't it better for my research career to have a PhD that is in the area of interest I want to continue my research in, with T32 funding, which I have? Would doing the PhD after the DVM and residency/intern still be better for my research career, considering that I may not get a PhD with T32/funding that is as similar to my interests in the future? Just trying to weigh the valence of this PhD with the timing component. Thanks!

Having T32 funding is not that big of a deal (my bias in being at a large research institution might be showing here, I guess) and won't really have any effect on your career prospects. The funding that the lab has is more important because that directly affects the research you're able to do, and therefore the publications you're able to get out.

Having a PhD and then a gap of 4 years where you're not publishing, and then trying to get a postdoc position, will affect your postgrad career prospects. That's going to be very, very challenging.

Your PhD doesn't need to be working on exactly what you want to work on for your entire career. Most people don't get that luxury, actually. A PhD is you learning how to be an independent investigator and all the skills that are required for that.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The funding that the lab has is more important because that directly affects the research you're able to do, and therefore the publications you're able to get out.

Having a PhD and then a gap of 4 years where you're not publishing, and then trying to get a postdoc position, will affect your postgrad career prospects. That's going to be very, very challenging.

Your PhD doesn't need to be working on exactly what you want to work on for your entire career. Most people don't get that luxury, actually. A PhD is you learning how to be an independent investigator and all the skills that are required for that.

Absolutely right on all three bolded counts.

Sidenote, I'm not sure how they are offering you T32 funding. T32 programs are for people pursuing PhDs who already have doctoral degrees (i.e. DVM, MD). They are post-doctoral fellowships.. Are they saying that you will be guaranteed T32-level stipend support after you complete the DVM portion? I would have them clarify that. [[[[edit - supershorty thanks!]] The T32 is a grant awarded to an institution, not to a particular person. The institution then decides who they want to accept into the post-doctoral PhD program, and pays them using the money from the T32 grant. It is not a research grant per se.

Also, the T32 is not the same as the individual lab's funding. The T32 is in place to pay the people on it at a post-doc level p (i.e. more than a typical graduate student - 20k stipend vs say a 40k stipend). You can have T32 support, but if you are in a lab with poor funding, it won't affect the quality of research you are able to do. You may be being paid decently well, but if the lab does not have grant money to buy what you need, it doesn't matter.

 

[supershorty]

@WhtsThFrequency there are pre-doctoral T32s, the one I was on until recently had both pre-doctoral people (like meeee!) and post-doctoral.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

To provide a real-world example, my current summer research mentor is a clinician and professor at my school and spends 4 days a week in the lab with one day in the hospital seeing patients with the occasional class to teach during the semester. But it can also be helpful as she is able to get notified if there is a client-owned patient that comes who meet the criteria for the research she is working on.

Exactly, that's usually how it goes. There is usually a "lion's share" of time taken up by one or the other.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

@WhtsThFrequency there are pre-doctoral T32s, the one I was on until recently had both pre-doctoral people (like meeee!) and post-doctoral.

Ahh gotcha! I was a little confused. The T35 is what I always considered to be the pre-doctoral version, although that one is limited to smaller time periods. Do they provide you financial support then? Or is it in the form of some sort of tuition reduction?

 

[supershorty]

Ahh gotcha! I was a little confused. The T35 is what I always considered to be the pre-doctoral version, although that one is limited to smaller time periods. Do they provide you financial support then? Or is it in the form of some sort of tuition reduction?

Mine covered my stipend, but it wasn't a pay bump or anything. I think the NIH T32 predoctoral funding is actually a little lower than my program's base stipend, IIRC, and my PI made up the difference.

Let me go reference the letter I got when I got onto it, hold pls.

 

[supershorty]

Mine covered my stipend, but it wasn't a pay bump or anything. I think the NIH T32 predoctoral funding is actually a little lower than my program's base stipend, IIRC, and my PI made up the difference.

Let me go reference the letter I got when I got onto it, hold pls.

Yeah, this is correct.

NIH Annual Stipend: $XX,XXX (supplemented by funds from your advisor’s non-sponsored accounts if your graduate program stipend is above this amount).

It was ~3k lower than my program stipend (and my program has one of the lowest grad student stipends here).

 

[IvyMoose]

As someone who did not make it to applying for PhDs but ultimately wants to get DVM and PhD, I have the following mindset. 1) if you do your DVM now, you can qualify for PSLF while completing your PhD, assuming you go to either a nonprofit private or any public school: 2) like [mention]supershorty [/mention] said, you kind of want to keep the ball rolling once you have your PhD: publications need to come out and you need to be in the science, so to speak. In other words, from what I know, it’s easier to play DVM when doing your PhD than to play PhD while doing your DVM - you can theoretically relief if you feel comfortable / have the time (although when do either DVM or PhD students have “time”). I don’t know if this helps at all, but these are some musings from a confused pre- DVM / PhD / MS / (all the degrees) who is also trying to figure out higher education.

Edit: it gets confusing with PhD and employment vs students status +/- residency, as stated below… thanks for the fact check.

 

[sheltermed]

can qualify for PSLF while completing your PhD

Can anyone confirm or provide documentation that confirms this?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As someone who did not make it to applying for PhDs but ultimately wants to get DVM and PhD, I have the following mindset. 1) if you do your DVM now, you can qualify for PSLF while completing your PhD, assuming you go to either a nonprofit private or any public school: 2) like [mention]supershorty [/mention] said, you kind of want to keep the ball rolling once you have your PhD: publications need to come out and you need to be in the science, so to speak. In other words, from what I know, it’s easier to play DVM when doing your PhD than to play PhD while doing your DVM - you can theoretically relief if you feel comfortable / have the time (although when do either DVM or PhD students have “time”). I don’t know if this helps at all, but these are some musings from a confused pre- DVM / PhD / MS / (all the degrees) who is also trying to figure out higher education.

I don't think this is true, unless the rules have changed. Because when you are doing a PhD, you are not considered an employee - you are considered enrolled as a graduate student. You may be receiving a stipend, but you are still a student and your tuition is being waived.

Now, you MAY qualify for PSLF if you are in residency, because you are technically an employee - however, that is if you are NOT officially co-enrolled in a graduate program (i.e. a combined residency/MS or PhD). It's that student status that muddies the waters, because you are considered a trainee.

 

[WonderingStudent]

I don't think this is true, unless the rules have changed. Because when you are doing a PhD, you are not considered an employee - you are considered enrolled as a graduate student. You may be receiving a stipend, but you are still a student and your tuition is being waived.

Now, you MAY qualify for PSLF if you are in residency, because you are technically an employee - however, that is if you are NOT officially co-enrolled in a graduate program (i.e. a combined residency/MS or PhD). It's that student status that muddies the waters, because you are considered a trainee.

I have not looked into this myself but someone who has recently graduated that is going into a dual residency/PhD program told me that this program would contribute to their 10 years needed for loan forgiveness. But definitely if someone is hoping to go this route, make sure for yourself that this would qualify.

 

[JaynaAli]

From my experience as a resident it definitely depends on how your program classifies you. I know of people at my residency institution who got put into “in school” status because of their masters/PhD credits, and they apparently didn’t qualify for PSLF for those years because it didn’t think they were in repayment bc they were listed as in school. But others doing a regular residency (and even some in combined programs) were considered employees and their loans stayed in repayment mode. There may be ways to consolidate and get around going into “in school” status, I’m not sure, but if you are trying to pursue PSLF you need to be really careful and double check everything.

 

[IvyMoose]

Right sorry just edited my post, I’ll try and find a source but as of right now I may have just spread misinformation (a nightmare)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Right sorry just edited my post, I’ll try and find a source but as of right now I may have just spread misinformation (a nightmare)

No worries - there is a LOT of hearsay with regard to PSLF that has always floated around everywhere. Very difficult to find out things for certain. It's been a total mess of a program for a LONG time.

 

[Musicandhorses]

I can put in my two cents for what it’s worth. I did my DVM, practiced a while then did and completed a PhD in human studies and then went back into clinical veterinary work as well as being in scientific publications now. It has been very hard to go back and forth between the fields. I’ve done it but now not sure I should have. I especially found it hard in 2012 (when the vet field was recovering and I was finishing my grad work) to even find a clinical job. Then when I was in the clinic found it hard to get a research job. Most research organizations do not care about a DVM as others have said. They care about funding, networking, publications and your research field. Most clinical areas care about your experience. These are often two separate worlds unless you are a specialist at a teaching hospital. I still work in both fields, but it’s not easy.

 

[starscollidehi]

I can put in my two cents for what it’s worth. I did my DVM, practiced a while then did and completed a PhD in human studies and then went back into clinical veterinary work as well as being in scientific publications now. It has been very hard to go back and forth between the fields. I’ve done it but now not sure I should have. I especially found it hard in 2012 (when the vet field was recovering and I was finishing my grad work) to even find a clinical job. Then when I was in the clinic found it hard to get a research job. Most research organizations do not care about a DVM as others have said. They care about funding, networking, publications and your research field. Most clinical areas care about your experience. These are often two separate worlds unless you are a specialist at a teaching hospital. I still work in both fields, but it’s not easy.

This honestly sounds so negative...I mean, shouldn't you be able to go at your own pace with schooling, and not have to force yourself through grueling training if it doesn't feel right? If it's harder to get a job, it's harder to get a job, but if it feels right, isn't that what's most important? Just not sure I can logic myself out of this situation, I have decided to just do DVM and see what happens. Juggling academia with clinical vet med is overwhelming at the moment, and honestly, there is more to life I feel like

 

[supershorty]

.I mean, shouldn't you be able to go at your own pace with schooling, and not have to force yourself through grueling training if it doesn't feel right? If it's harder to get a job, it's harder to get a job, but if it feels right, isn't that what's most important?

Unfortunately, this is not the way life works, lol.

"Harder to get a job" is really important when you have things like a mortgage, or kids you're feeding and putting through school, or want to not live like a student for the rest of your life.

Feeling right doesn't pay the bills or get grants to fund your research.

 

[Musicandhorses]

This honestly sounds so negative...I mean, shouldn't you be able to go at your own pace with schooling, and not have to force yourself through grueling training if it doesn't feel right? If it's harder to get a job, it's harder to get a job, but if it feels right, isn't that what's most important? Just not sure I can logic myself out of this situation, I have decided to just do DVM and see what happens. Juggling academia with clinical vet med is overwhelming at the moment, and honestly, there is more to life I feel like

It’s not that it didn’t feel right. I felt like it was the ‘right thing for me’ during all the training. The thing is…I loved school up until my last 1-2 years of PhD work in which I think I just got burned out. But that’s often what a PhD does. So I had 12+ years of post high school education that I loved then the last two years…IDK…just hit a brick wall which I’ve heard a lot of PhD students hit no matter if they have a good mentor and a project they love (which I was VERY LUCKY) to have both,which many PhD students do not have. Anyways…take my story FWIW. I am an n=1. As far as pacing…it doesn’t work like that. DVM is very structured. The PhD is more lenient but there is a caveat. You need to have publishable data, so in theory you still have time limits and deadlines, and in a way even more than the DVM and many of the things you need to complete during the PhD are completely beyond your control. You need data and your experiments to work to graduate with your PhD. Your DVM well you finish tests, labs, rotations and you’re there. Harder said than done but anyways…. It’s not just ‘at your own pace’ for either degree.

My goal is not to sound negative at all. I’m trying to explain my story is all. I’m an idealist too, but then reality hits. The reality is that these fields are two separate islands. The people who’ve I’ve seen who’ve been able to merge the worlds together are specialists or are lab animal/path folks who are collaborating on animal models. The truth is that straight PhD/PIs use collaborations and have enough knowledge of their field to not need a clinical degree. They get along without it.

Now, idealistically could the human research field use more vets…sure… but reality is much different. You do need to think about jobs and salary potential. That’s the reality. But again I’m an n=1 and just trying to discuss my experience.

 

[pidge789]

This is my opinion, having gone down the research route first, then DVM. Research is highly competitive and even with a PhD (if you make it through) there’s no guarantee you won’t be scrabbling for a tenure-track position after doing years of post-docs. From my experience you really do need to be exceptional to get a good academic position. DVM you’re pretty much guaranteed a solid, decently paid, well-respected career (at least in CA). I vote to get the DVM for sure, so you have that professional career behind you no matter what.

 

[supershorty]

The PhD is more lenient but there is a caveat. You need to have publishable data, so in theory you still have time limits and deadlines, and in a way even more than the DVM and many of the things you need to complete during the PhD are completely beyond your control. You need data and your experiments to work to graduate with your PhD.

And funding has deadlines, and programs have requirements for timing, and all of that is even dependent on having funding in the first place ...

yeah.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It’s not that it didn’t feel right. I felt like it was the ‘right thing for me’ during all the training. The thing is…I loved school up until my last 1-2 years of PhD work in which I think I just got burned out. But that’s often what a PhD does. So I had 12+ years of post high school education that I loved then the last two years…IDK…just hit a brick wall which I’ve heard a lot of PhD students hit no matter if they have a good mentor and a project they love (which I was VERY LUCKY) to have both,which many PhD students do not have. Anyways…take my story FWIW. I am an n=1. As far as pacing…it doesn’t work like that. DVM is very structured. The PhD is more lenient but there is a caveat. You need to have publishable data, so in theory you still have time limits and deadlines, and in a way even more than the DVM and many of the things you need to complete during the PhD are completely beyond your control. You need data and your experiments to work to graduate with your PhD. Your DVM well you finish tests, labs, rotations and you’re there. Harder said than done but anyways…. It’s not just ‘at your own pace’ for either degree.

My goal is not to sound negative at all. I’m trying to explain my story is all. I’m an idealist too, but then reality hits. The reality is that these fields are two separate islands. The people who’ve I’ve seen who’ve been able to merge the worlds together are specialists or are lab animal/path folks who are collaborating on animal models. The truth is that straight PhD/PIs use collaborations and have enough knowledge of their field to not need a clinical degree. They get along without it.

Now, idealistically could the human research field use more vets…sure… but reality is much different. You do need to think about jobs and salary potential. That’s the reality. But again I’m an n=1 and just trying to discuss my experience.

n =2 right here

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

We've all been sold this idea of how you job should be your life and it should be your top passion and you should sacrifice whatever it takes to get there. Utter bollocks. Nobody on their deathbed ever said "I wish I had worked harder." They all regret not exploring all of the other non-career parts of their life more.

Making your career your only passion and having it drive your life should not be your top priority. Because let's be honest - unless you are a complete genius, we are all replaceable. All of us. Your top priority should be diversifying your passions to all of the other components of your life that are more important. Get a job you like. Or can at least tolerate. It doesn't have to be your dream job (because what does that even mean, anyway). Use that job to provide financial stability in life so you can focus on and celebrate all of the non-work parts of your life (friends, family, hobbies, things that give you joy - which are FAR more important at the end of the day).