Phoenix market

[scoobydum]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Hey folks...

I posted this in the private forum already, but maybe you guys have some additional input.

I'd like to get folks' impressions of the job market in and around Phoenix. Gaswork isn't very helpful. Is it pretty tight given the economy, or are people actually hiring? Currently, I'm working in the midwest but have grown tired of the crappy, cold weather. It may be time for a change.

If anyone has any thoughts upon the Phoenix market or knows of any openings, please share them. I've read an old thread from back in 2006, but not sure how accurate it is right now. Thanks!

 

[gaspasser2004]

There is a mega group called Valley Anesthesia. A couple of dudes ahead of me in my program went to practice there. From what they told me, it ain't for the faint of heart. First, they tend not to hire people directly out of residency or even fellowship (doesn't apply to OP) and expect expert (greater than 5 years out) competence/slickness from the get go. Second, you typically follow surgeons around and cover multiple different hospitals. Third, you are very much on your own as you trek out all over the Phoenix area doing cases. The upside is that I hear the money is great (not sure how much exactly, but over 500K).

I think there are other groups in the area, but none with as much clout as Valley.

 

[ProRealDoc]

There is a mega group called Valley Anesthesia. A couple of dudes ahead of me in my program went to practice there. From what they told me, it ain't for the faint of heart. First, they tend not to hire people directly out of residency or even fellowship (doesn't apply to OP) and expect expert (greater than 5 years out) competence/slickness from the get go. Second, you typically follow surgeons around and cover multiple different hospitals. Third, you are very much on your own as you trek out all over the Phoenix area doing cases. The upside is that I hear the money is great (not sure how much exactly, but over 500K).

I think there are other groups in the area, but none with as much clout as Valley.

First three years you make about 220 and then 500K +. You can make a higher salary if you take others' calls, stay late, etc.

 

[bigeyedfish]

I have a buddy who works in Phoenix, though not with Valley. The money's good, but he has to drive to 10+ hospitals, the earliest he ever gets home is 6 and he has to be available all the time, unless he's on vacation. In short, he's working his nuts off.

 

[jetproppilot]

. In short, he's working his nuts off.

 

[scoobydum]

Thanks everyone.

I had heard of the Valley supergroup before. The idea of trekking around ten different locales and basically following a group of surgeons around isn't very appealing. I'm guessing that's just how the West coast is? I'm in the midwest in a more traditional setting: one group with an exclusive contract covering one hospital's services (hospital, asc, etc.). So the idea of basically being an independent contractor loosely affiliated with a group of independent contractors is a bit of a culture shock to me.

Do y'all know anything about if groups offer "nose" coverage? Or which (if any) carriers offer nose coverage on the national level? Unfortunately, my policy is claims-made only, so if we wanted to leave the state, we'd have to shell out for tail coverage.

Thanks again!

 

[RickKane]

Our PD (in AZ) just got an email from a group in Casa Grande (30 min south of PHX) who is looking to hire a couple people right now. Don't know the details but from what I understand they just cover one hospital.

 

[scoobydum]

Thanks for the info, Rick!

 

[panetrain]

Don't know how much of this is true, but if it is...it sounds like **** balls to me.😱

First three years you make about 220 and then 500K +. You can make a higher salary if you take others' calls, stay late, etc.

 

[aredoubleyou]

Don't know how much of this is true, but if it is...it sounds like **** balls to me.😱

Actually I think that group is now on a 5 yr track 😱

Lotta hours, successful business model, they do take new grads and have tons of non-fellowshipped peeps (I know some myself 🙂 )

 

[aredoubleyou]

Thanks everyone.

I had heard of the Valley supergroup before. The idea of trekking around ten different locales and basically following a group of surgeons around isn't very appealing. I'm guessing that's just how the West coast is? I'm in the midwest in a more traditional setting: one group with an exclusive contract covering one hospital's services (hospital, asc, etc.). So the idea of basically being an independent contractor loosely affiliated with a group of independent contractors is a bit of a culture shock to me.

Do y'all know anything about if groups offer "nose" coverage? Or which (if any) carriers offer nose coverage on the national level? Unfortunately, my policy is claims-made only, so if we wanted to leave the state, we'd have to shell out for tail coverage.

Thanks again!

A lot of advantages (financial) to being independent. Prolly the most important part of that set-up is a mixed unit and fair scheduling. Eat what you kill and unfair scheduling is a bad combo.

 

[IlDestriero]

Actually I think that group is now on a 5 yr track 😱

Lotta hours, successful business model, they do take new grads and have tons of non-fellowshipped peeps (I know some myself 🙂 )

Anyone who takes a 5 year to partner job now is nuts. That's risking between $500-$1M that there will be a pot of gold still waiting at the end of the rainbow. No way. I'll take the cash now and if the sky doesn't fall, renegotiate or change jobs in a few years.

 

[scoobydum]

With all the uncertainty hovering over our field, I think a 2 year track is pushing it even for an "elite" practice. Five years, on the other hand, is absolutely ridiculous. Let's say that you were made a financial partner after five years. In a worst case scenario with pending diminished reimbursements, as a partner, you might end up having the same income as you did starting out as an employee.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Valley is certainly the "supergroup" with over 200 members.They have of recent, hired new grads but it is true that they tend to want people with more experience. They tend to place you at certain hospitals - ie, someone who covers cases at Banner Estrella and Thunderbird is not likely to be booked to cover a case at Scottsdale Healthcare Thompson Peak. So you would usually stay on a certain side of town, albeit perhaps with some driving. Valley is "house" at several Banner facilities which is the largest employer in Arizona. I cannot speak about the financials of course.

I use another much much smaller group; I prefer having the same small core group of anesthesiologists to routinely work with, as I find the communication and the cases are better. I have block time so they aren't following me all over town except on the rare days when I have cases booked at more than 1 hospital. On those days, the group tends to supply me someone different at each facility. However, I have used Valley Anesthesia at other hospitals where they have privileges and have not had a bad experience save for the unfamiliarity between myself and the anesthesiologist.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), Phoenix is really a private practice town with many surgeons, especially younger ones just starting out, having privileges at multiple places. Most surgeons aren't trekking from the West Valley, to the East (which could be an hour trip), etc. either as time in the car = lost money. The ones I know have privileges at relatively close hospitals, or don't book cases at widely geographically separated hospitals on the same day.

 

[scoobydum]

Bump.....anybody have additional perspectives? 1400 views and 14 responses LOL. Lots of peekers, but not many speakers.

 

[Aykroyd]

I joined Valley Anesthesiology Consultants (VAC) right out of residency in 2008 and we have continued to hire new and experienced physicians with exceptional qualifications/traits as the community grows. Up until about five or six years ago VAC anesthesiologists would typically travel around from hospital to hospital, but as the numbers grew, divisions for different parts of the valley were formed (for call and vacation purposes) and now we mainly stay within our division boundaries. We do, however, cross-credential so that we can assure all cases are covered. I work, for example, in the North Scottsdale Shea Division but occasionally will spend the day at Banner Good Sam which is part of the Downtown Division. On occasion we will be scheduled for cases at two different sites within the division but this is not done regularly.

Yes, VAC is well known in the greater Phoenix area but not solely due to our size; rather, largely from the quality of services provided. It is not our goal to monopize the market, but that being said there, is power in numbers. There are many other anesthesia providers in the valley, though, and I have friends happy with their positions within them.

If you are interested in working in the Phoenix area, I advise you to contact the individual groups. If you have specific questions about VAC, PM me.

 

[urge]

Arizona? Haven't they been on the news lately for bad stuff? And you want to live there? What's wrong with you?

I have had a few guys from Valley Anesthesia try to recruit. They swear by that group but it doesn't seem appealing to me.

 

[aredoubleyou]

Arizona? Haven't they been on the news lately for bad stuff? And you want to live there? What's wrong with you?
.

Mountains, lakes, hiking, year round golfing, outdoor swiming 'till November, camping, horses, national parks....yea its horrible🙂

 

[scoobydum]

Urge, the weather is fantastic 9 months out of the year. Hard to beat that. Climate at my current location is the inverse. Better career opportunities out West, too.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Arizona? Haven't they been on the news lately for bad stuff? And you want to live there? What's wrong with you?

I have had a few guys from Valley Anesthesia try to recruit. They swear by that group but it doesn't seem appealing to me.

It is true that the political scene is a bit interesting (good or bad, depending on your POV) but I don't know any one whose daily life is affected by these things.

Besides the weather and the scenery, you have professional sports, worldclass restaurants and resorts/spas, international airport/US airways hub with easy access, good freeway system, 5th largest city in the US, spring training camps/games, great Sonoran food, a lot of opportunities for private practice, skiing within 90 minutes, proximity to Vegas, San Diego, Mexico, etc. I can drive my convertible 9 months out of the year, sit outside for Thanksgiving dinner and go hiking in the red rocks or skiing without having to take a weekend off to do it. And if the outdoors isn't your thing, there are plenty of fancy nightclubs with bottle service where you can mingle with pro sports stars and young Hollywood. You might see Alice Cooper, Brett Michaels, Mike Tyson or various other celebs out at dinner.

 

[urge]

It is true that the political scene is a bit interesting (good or bad, depending on your POV) but I don't know any one whose daily life is affected by these things.

You find racial profiling entertaining?

Your State is the biggest disgrace in America.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You find racial profiling entertaining?

Your State is the biggest disgrace in America.

Please show me where I said anything about my political views on the subject? Or where I said that this policy is entertaining?

I called it "interesting" which was my way of indicating that was not the topic of discussion (and I was trying to keep in on topic - which is not about the political climate of AZ, but rather the job market).

I happen to find it abhorent as do the majority of Arizonans that I know; however, I live here and it is my duty to change what I can and fight for what is right. I do not see this law as reason not to move to Phoenix. But I am sure you are responsible for all acts of government in your state or country. 🙄

 

[scoobydum]

She's got some good points there, urge

 

[BDanes]

AZ is a pretty good place to practice for all the above reasons. Valley is a pseudomonopoly, and is a driving force keeping all MD anesthesia thriving in the valley. Personally, I enjoy doing my own cases and not being responsible for a CRNA.

Urge, really? The biggest disgrace? Really? I mean Really?

Guess what happens to me everytime I ever get stopped by a law officer in any foreign country? I am asked to show my passport (aka legal papers). California has a similar law in the books. WTF is the difference? What part of illegal immigrant is legal in this country?

Racial profiling? As if that is a result of this new law 🙄
There will always, ALWAYS be profiling just as there will always be stereotyping and generalizations.

I mean WTF? How happy are you that they take 80yo crippled ladies to the side and randomly search their bags at the airport? I know it sure makes me feel a LOT safer 🙄

 

[IlDestriero]

For a number of reasons, I think CA is the biggest disgrace in the US.🙁
As PGG notes "the Greece of North America"

 

[GoodmanBrown]

For a number of reasons, I think CA is the biggest disgrace in the US.🙁
As PGG notes "the Greece of North America"

I vote for Maine. Those mother****ers are ruining it for everybody.

 

[pgg]

Arizona? Haven't they been on the news lately for bad stuff?

Arizona has a lot going for it. It's on our short list of "western states that aren't California" that are potential settle spots after my Navy payback is done. I think if I can talk myself into tolerating snow on my driveway, Wyoming Montana or Idaho will win out but I have family in Arizona and like it. Not so much the neverending pseudo-suburb that Phoenix is, and I don't think I'm armed well enough to live near Mexico, but other parts are nice. And it isn't 1/10th the nanny state California is.

Although California is a disaster and I regularly mock it 🙂, it also has many redeeming factors. The weather. Beaches, mountains, Yosemite, ski resorts. Food and agriculture ... every time I stop at the peach orchard across the street from my house or pick blueberries & raspberries & boysenberries with my kids 3 blocks in the other direction I try to talk myself into staying. We lived on the east coast for 12 years and I swear I didn't have a good Mexican meal or a decent avocado the entire time.

And if you want to gripe about ******ed state laws, California has far more restrictive and unconstitutional legislation than Arizona ... it's just 180 degrees in the other direction.

 

[cfdavid]

You find racial profiling entertaining?

Your State is the biggest disgrace in America.

Urge, Jeez man. I'm not from the SW, but imagine being a rancher on a border community (or anyone for that matter) ,regardless of race, who find themselves in a rather precarious situation with trespassers, cattle theft, drug running, human smuggling.......

Not to mention the fiscal crises that many of those states (save Texas??) face, at least in PART secondary to over-consumption of resources relative to financial contribution to US society. At some point any sovereign nation has the right to say enough is enough. There just aren't enough resources to go around (healthcare, schooling, jobs....).

If there was a similar inflow of Canadians from our norther border, I wouldn't have a serious problem with "profiling" a bunch of dudes saying "let's get OUUT of here, eh!". Come on man. Don't succumb to the media notion that this is about race. Sure, there may be some bad apples in there, but I feel the majority of those folks are simply concerned about very limited (yet valuable) resources that are being spread very thin and becoming ever more costly.....

cf

 

[pgg]

I wouldn't have a serious problem with "profiling" a bunch of dudes saying "let's get OUUT of here, eh!".

We got ways of making you pronounce the letter 'o' ...

 

[cfdavid]

That's mostly for show to demonstrate the "fairness" of the system. Pretty low yield. We all know that you would get more bang for your buck by concentrating resources on certain demographics. But that would be racial profiling. We can be more effective and efficient in law enforcement or we can hold true to our values. We cannot do both. The voters of Arizona have chosen the former.

Doze, that's so unbelievably hypocritical of someone who has given money to AIPAC, the Zionist Organization of America, and other staunchly pro-Israel groups (regardless of what is happening there), and who sit's here on this forum and criticizes Arizonan policy when Israel is perhaps far and beyond the world's experts at "racial profiling".

In defense of the Israeli's, they have every right to profile, as does every other nation with an intent on preserving their sovereignty as well as protecting it's citizens. We need to get away from this "racial" sensitivity crap, because it's just that. I'm not suggesting we "give away freedom for security" as warned by our founding fathers, but rather addressing a specific problem in the most humane and sensistive way possible under the circumstances. And the circumstances suggest that we are a nation of limited resources (as all nations are) with an illegal immigration problem.

cf

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Thread should be kept remotely on target.

No agendas or it will be closed.

 

[cfdavid]

Thread should be kept remotely on target.

No agendas or it will be closed.

Arch, while I'm sure someone has been PMing you to close the thread, hold on a minute here.

This thread IS remotely on target. The OP asked about the Phoenix market. People responded with their take on the market and general area in which to live IN PHOENIX.

Someone mentioned some political controversies in Arizona which thereby applies, ofcourse, to the political climate in phoenix.

Then someone took issue with Arizona's immigration law. Others chimed in.
We have healthy disagreements on issues. It's what makes this forum interesting (in part, and aside from case discussions).

One poster commented on his opinion of the Arizona immigration law which IMO happened to be directly contradictory to his previous support of organizations deemed by most objective observers to be far WORSE than anything Arizona (thus applicable to the Phoenix market and climate, once again) could have enacted. So, I felt compelled to call this person out on the hypocrisy.

No major deviations here, and not disintegrating into something none of us want.

But, why is this ONE topic so "off limits" on this forum?? Can't we include this in our "list" of healthy debates?? Food for thought.

cf

 

[scoobydum]

Hi folks,

I appreciate everyone chiming in, as it makes for an interesting discussion and lively debate. However, if we could please stay more on the topic of just the Phoenix job market, that'd be really appreciated! We can always start another thread on Arizona politics, if you like.....let's just not make it this one.😉

 

[BDanes]

Sorry to have potentially deviated this thread, although it should show that someone else went that way first. Moreover, someone who has no experience with the situation. I digress.....

I merely pointed out the airline situation to show that we as Americans need to stop apologizing for hurting peoples feelings if they fit a certain profile. It's pretty simple in AZ, don't break the law and they won't ask you for papers. End of story.

As for the job market I'd say it is tough to get into and hard to know where you stand even within groups. Almost all groups are 1099 and sometimes there can be question as to whether scheduling is fair. I feel my group is fair, but there are some circumstances that are not. It is surgeon based here, so if you have a good relationship with the surgeon you can get scheduled.

As for valley it works more like a traditional group that has exclusivity. They have Scottsdale on lockdown and also Phx Children's from what I understand. They are probably going to make a play for all the Banner system. I have a friend who works for them and he seems ok with it.
But the reality is that they will make a LOT of money off your back for at least 2 yrs. One yr they hired 30 people. You KNOW that all of them won't make high level partnership.

As for me I personally am grossing between 30-40k/month working from about 25-60 hrs per week. I'm in my first year out of residency.

Lots of medicaid out here, but it pays $30/unit.

 

[pgg]

But, why is this ONE topic so "off limits" on this forum?? Can't we include this in our "list" of healthy debates?? Food for thought.

It's not that immigration reform and enforcement are off limits, it's just that threads have historically turned into absolute disasters whenever you bring up Zionist-this or Israel-that.

 

[deleted126335]

Doze, that's so unbelievably hypocritical of someone who has given money to AIPAC, the Zionist Organization of America, and other staunchly pro-Israel groups (regardless of what is happening there), and who sit's here on this forum and criticizes Arizonan policy when Israel is perhaps far and beyond the world's experts at "racial profiling".

In defense of the Israeli's, they have every right to profile, as does every other nation with an intent on preserving their sovereignty as well as protecting it's citizens. We need to get away from this "racial" sensitivity crap, because it's just that. I'm not suggesting we "give away freedom for security" as warned by our founding fathers, but rather addressing a specific problem in the most humane and sensistive way possible under the circumstances. And the circumstances suggest that we are a nation of limited resources (as all nations are) with an illegal immigration problem.

cf

Not at all. I am just trying to distill the essential conflict that Americans have about the Arizona law in two sentences. I have never lived in Arizona. I am sure however that its residents are no less patriotic, no less lovers of freedom or more lovers of government intrusion than other Americans, yet 70% voted in favor of this law. WHY? Answer: the situation for a majority of the voters with regards to this issue has become intolerable.

Israel racial profiles in matters of security because their situation would otherwise be intolerable. It is both distasteful and understandable. I see no inherent hypocrisy in choosing to do something that you don't want to do- But you do it anyway because you feel that you have to.

 

[gaspasser2004]

Sorry to have potentially deviated this thread, although it should show that someone else went that way first. Moreover, someone who has no experience with the situation. I digress.....

I merely pointed out the airline situation to show that we as Americans need to stop apologizing for hurting peoples feelings if they fit a certain profile. It's pretty simple in AZ, don't break the law and they won't ask you for papers. End of story.

As for the job market I'd say it is tough to get into and hard to know where you stand even within groups. Almost all groups are 1099 and sometimes there can be question as to whether scheduling is fair. I feel my group is fair, but there are some circumstances that are not. It is surgeon based here, so if you have a good relationship with the surgeon you can get scheduled.

As for valley it works more like a traditional group that has exclusivity. They have Scottsdale on lockdown and also Phx Children's from what I understand. They are probably going to make a play for all the Banner system. I have a friend who works for them and he seems ok with it.
But the reality is that they will make a LOT of money off your back for at least 2 yrs. One yr they hired 30 people. You KNOW that all of them won't make high level partnership.

As for me I personally am grossing between 30-40k/month working from about 25-60 hrs per week. I'm in my first year out of residency.

Lots of medicaid out here, but it pays $30/unit.

BDanes has made some of the more useful comments on this thread. I am not personally interested in the Phoenix market but would be interested to know what BDanes thinks about these questions:

1. What made you choose the Phoenix market?

2. How do you feel about surgeon-directed anesthesia where anesthesia-surgeon relationships can make or break you?

3. As a first year attending, how did you adjust to being totally independent in a situation where your partners can't always be counted on to help you out?

4. How do you feel about being on staff at multiple different hospitals and possibly traveling between hospitals on the same day?

 

[sevoflurane]

BDanes has made some of the more useful comments on this thread. I am not personally interested in the Phoenix market but would be interested to know what BDanes thinks about these questions:

1. What made you choose the Phoenix market?

2. How do you feel about surgeon-directed anesthesia where anesthesia-surgeon relationships can make or break you?

3. As a first year attending, how did you adjust to being totally independent in a situation where your partners can't always be counted on to help you out?

4. How do you feel about being on staff at multiple different hospitals and possibly traveling between hospitals on the same day?

Sounds like San Antonio, TX.

 

[cfdavid]

It's not that immigration reform and enforcement are off limits, it's just that threads have historically turned into absolute disasters whenever you bring up Zionist-this or Israel-that.

Point taken. But, these are pretty big topics, and very relevant to American foreign policy as recently stated by General Patraeus.

 

[cfdavid]

Not at all. I am just trying to distill the essential conflict that Americans have about the Arizona law in two sentences. I have never lived in Arizona. I am sure however that its residents are no less patriotic, no less lovers of freedom or more lovers of government intrusion than other Americans, yet 70% voted in favor of this law. WHY? Answer: the situation for a majority of the voters with regards to this issue has become intolerable.

Israel racial profiles in matters of security because their situation would otherwise be intolerable. It is both distasteful and understandable. I see no inherent hypocrisy in choosing to do something that you don't want to do- But you do it anyway because you feel that you have to.

You made it very clear BELOW that you disapprove of the Arizona mandate, yet just as clear, that if Israel didn't racially profile, the situation would be "INTOLERABLE" (your words). I'm suggesting a huge double standard which is consistent with your views towards Israel, as well as the groups that you've given money to which promote hate crime legislation here in the U.S. (the ADL of B'nai Brith) and preach "tolerance" while at the very same time ythese groups make every attempt to not only cover up, but justify the blatant INTOLERANCE of Jews in Israel towards not only Arab Muslims, but also Christians.

"But that would be racial profiling. We can be more effective and efficient in law enforcement or we can hold true to our values. We cannot do both. The voters of Arizona have chosen the former."

Those "values" that you so espouse; Do they not also apply to Israel? OR is Israel just "different" and therefore anything goes as we've recently seen during the Gaza blockade.

Does the ADL (which you've stated having financially contributed to) also support (and work feverishly towards, and I can back this up) "hate crimes" legislation in Israel??. That is, if a Palestinian was targeted soley base upon his ethnicity or religion (not exactly an uncommon occurance to say the least), should Jews in Israel pay a steeper price in the courts? Should they even be prosecuted in the first place? Or, is it just "o.k."??

This is not a personal thing between myself and Doze (and others), but it's also NOT the types of questions you're likely to see on "Reliable Sources" or "The situation room" for what should be obvious reasons.

cf

 

[deleted126335]

You made it very clear BELOW that you disapprove of the Arizona mandate, yet just as clear, that if Israel didn't racially profile, the situation would be "INTOLERABLE" (your words). I'm suggesting a huge double standard which is consistent with your views towards Israel, as well as the groups that you've given money to which promote hate crime legislation here in the U.S. (the ADL of B'nai Brith) and preach "tolerance" while at the very same time ythese groups make every attempt to not only cover up, but justify the blatant INTOLERANCE of Jews in Israel towards not only Arab Muslims, but also Christians.

"But that would be racial profiling. We can be more effective and efficient in law enforcement or we can hold true to our values. We cannot do both. The voters of Arizona have chosen the former."

Those "values" that you so espouse; Do they not also apply to Israel? OR is Israel just "different" and therefore anything goes as we've recently seen during the Gaza blockade.

Does the ADL (which you've stated having financially contributed to) also support (and work feverishly towards, and I can back this up) "hate crimes" legislation in Israe??. That is, if a Palestinian was targeted soley base upon his ethnicity or religion, should Jews in Israel pay a steeper price in the courts? Should they even be prosecuted in the first place? Or, is it just "o.k."??

This is not a personal thing between myself and Doze (and others), but it's also NOT the types of questions you're likely to see on "Reliable Sources" or "The situation room" for what should be obvious reasons.

cf

You read too much into my post. I have problems with the Arizona law, but I probably would have voted for it if I lived there. History is replete with examples of countries compromising their values in times of strife.

-in WW2 Japanese Americans at first had their liberties savagely curtailed and then they were forcibly interred based on racial profiling. These actions were blessed more than once by the supreme court.

-in the civil war president lincoln, (noted for expanding liberty for many)- suspended habeas corpus.

-attorney general gonzalez, the highest law enforcement officer in the US recommended abandoning the geneva convention for Al QAEDA members, using the patriot act to increase surveillance on Americans, and promoted a legal argument for torture.

As far as Israel goes, what they do in the name of security does compromise many jewish and israeli secular values, but the decisions are usually made thoughtfully by men of conscience who feel that they have little choice. Just as the above decisions were made by men of conscience and intelligence. Decisions that I am sure betrayed their values.

Few if any dance in the street handing out candy after blowing up civilians like the people your sympathies lie with.

 

[IlDestriero]

Any reason why you guys feel the need to keep going and derail a useful thread about the Phoenix market. Give it a rest, please. Or, start another thread.

 

[cfdavid]

Any reason why you guys feel the need to keep going and derail a useful thread about the Phoenix market. Give it a rest, please. Or, start another thread.

Il Destiero, one of the main reasons is simply that if I were to initiate such a discussion on a separate thread, it would get shot down pretty quickly by a certain mod as being too controversial or whatever.

However, maybe I will and we'll see what happens. Expect it to be provocative but also educational. I have ZERO interests in propagating mistruths or propaganda. I'm neither Jewish or Palestinian, and thus consider myself a reasonably objective person on these issues, though American mainstream media and education may suggest otherwise.

Cheers,

cf

 

[cfdavid]

You read too much into my post. I have problems with the Arizona law, but I probably would have voted for it if I lived there. History is replete with examples of countries compromising their values in times of strife.

-in WW2 Japanese Americans at first had their liberties savagely curtailed and then they were forcibly interred based on racial profiling. These actions were blessed more than once by the supreme court.

-in the civil war president lincoln, (noted for expanding liberty for many)- suspended habeas corpus.

-attorney general gonzalez, the highest law enforcement officer in the US recommended abandoning the geneva convention for Al QAEDA members, using the patriot act to increase surveillance on Americans, and promoted a legal argument for torture.

As far as Israel goes, what they do in the name of security does compromise many jewish and israeli secular values, but the decisions are usually made thoughtfully by men of conscience who feel that they have little choice. Just as the above decisions were made by men of conscience and intelligence. Decisions that I am sure betrayed their values.

Few if any dance in the street handing out candy after blowing up civilians like the people your sympathies lie with.

My sympathies do NOT lie with people blowing up civilians, but rather they do in fact lie with those whom generation after generation, have seen their land stolen out from under their feet (literally) as well as having been victimized (mortality ratio of 4:1) far beyond the damage that a minority amongst them have caused.

Just for the record.

I'll continue on another thread, maybe tomorrow.

 

[deleted126335]

My sympathies do NOT lie with people blowing up civilians, but rather they do in fact lie with those whom generation after generation, have seen their land stolen out from under their feet (literally) as well as having been victimized (mortality ratio of 4:1) far beyond the damage that a minority amongst them have caused.

Just for the record.

I'll continue on another thread, maybe tomorrow.

Germany and Japan lost more people than the US and Great Britain in WW2. Yet they were and are considered the aggressors in that conflict. Just for the record.

 

[cfdavid]

Germany and Japan lost more people than the US and Great Britain in WW2. Yet they were and are considered the aggressors in that conflict. Just for the record.

The winners write the history books. You should be sophisticated enough to know that reality.

 

[IlDestriero]

Germany and Japan lost more people than the US and Great Britain in WW2. Yet they were and are considered the aggressors in that conflict. Just for the record.

😕
Ahhh, they were the aggressors (Hitler-> Poland-> Europe, etc. Japan-> Pearl Harbor, etc. Ringing any bells?) They got biatch slapped for it. Mess with the bull and you get the horns. Just like in Arizona. ( See how I brought it back around?)

 

[cfdavid]

😕
Ahhh, they were the aggressors (Hitler-> Poland-> Europe, etc. Japan-> Pearl Harbor, etc. Ringing any bells?) They got biatch slapped for it. Mess with the bull and you get the horns.

IlDestriero, I'm pretty sure he's not arguing against your point, but rather for it.

My contention is that the victors write the history books, and shape the debate for the forseeable future.

There's a lot of evidence that Churchill had advanced knowledge (MI5/6 were the best in the world) that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. Yet, he had, LITERALLY, the entire British Empire at stake (read that again. THE ENTIRE BRITISH EMPIRE AT STAKE). And he was head of state. So, if you were Churchill, WITH THAT REALITY FACING YOU, would you provide advanced notice to your would-be-allies??? Those same "allies" whom until then had a rather isolationist approach to another European War, at a time when the America First movement was sweaping the country??

OR, might you forgoe advanced warning, consider Pearl Harbor as collateral damage, and succeed in advancing the U.S. into the war, which you were losing rapidly???

That is my point. The winners write (dictate) the history books....... We absolutely have to be more sophisticated in our approach to conventional knowledge. Because, conventional knowledge is not a coincedence, but rather a priority by some. Think this through.

cf

 

[IlDestriero]

Was there a point?😀

I know 2 anesthesiologists working in Phoenix, one with Valley and one renegade. They both are happy with the city and the market. They work hard though, and the summer is unbearable. They also do their own cases, which is important to some here. I would recommend that everyone do their own cases for a while before going into a supervisory role. You develop confidence and speed. That will serve you well for your entire career.

 

[TeamZissou]

I can comment on the weather in Phoenix as I lived there for the last decade.
Personally I prefer the cold. That being said summers in AZ can be done. One of the above poster hit the nail on the head where they said the weather is pretty decent 9 months out of the year. The three months (June, July, August) that are the worst are really no different from winter in most places. You avoid going outside except for peak times, work, etc. It's the same ritual but hot. If your ambitious you can even go out in the mornings (5am) to exercise and its ~75-85.