Physcian assistants versus Pharmacy

[Aznfarmerboi]

In the future, the profession of pharmacy will collide with PA's. Although we may not practice medicine, our profession as a whole is exploring the idea of expansion into vaccinations, mangement of chronic conditions (MTM), etc.

Their profession is expanding rapidly. Their shortage along with the field growth (I believe 24 percent this year) is making them a profession to be recognized with. Their salary isnt bad with a lot of them starting in the 70's to 80s now depending on region, and can go pass 100k (speciality). I remember when I first started pharmacy school four years ago, their salary was 50-60k. A 20k increase over 4 years is pretty decent, and is still skyrocketing.

They only require 4 years of schooling, giving them the advantage of a 2 year head start, and 2 years free of tuition.

What do you guys think about the future of PA's verus Pharmacists?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[njac]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that students will choose to go to PA school rather than pharmacy school or are you talking about competition once we're out practicing?

 

[ageldred]

I don't think they'll become the same anytime soon.

NPs and PAs maybe, but not PAs and pharmacists.

 

[DrgsRmyLife]

Well I know in North Carolina, I think, they now have certified pharmacist practitioners (CPP). CPP apparently practice medicine the same way as NP's and PA's. There are some things that must be met before one can be licensed as a CPP, like experience and being a CGP or some other things. So we already are practicing very similar things in some places. Who knows what will happen in the future.

 

[Slntwolf]

Well I know in North Carolina, I think, they now have certified pharmacist practitioners (CPP). CPP apparently practice medicine the same way as NP's and PA's. There are some things that must be met before one can be licensed as a CPP, like experience and being a CGP or some other things. So we already are practicing very similar things in some places. Who knows what will happen in the future.

http://www.ncpharmacists.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=13



I think this is what you are talking about. These are basically pharmacists in collaborative practice agreements with physicians practicing pharmacy and doing drug therapy monitoring, ordering labs, changing medications under specified protocols. This isn't the same as NP or PA's.

 

[njac]

yes, that depends on your state's laws. Here in NM we have PhC (Pharmacist Clinicians) who have prescriptive authority if they have a practice agreement with a physician.

As the daughter of RNs I have a very difficult time taking PAs seriously. I would rather see a Nurse Practitioner any day of the week.

 

[ageldred]

yes, that depends on your state's laws. Here in NM we have PhC (Pharmacist Clinicians) who have prescriptive authority if they have a practice agreement with a physician.

As the daughter of RNs I have a very difficult time taking PAs seriously. I would rather see a Nurse Practitioner any day of the week.

I didn't really know the difference between NPs and PAs until I looked it up.

I don't think my state, FL, has collaborative practice agreements yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[genesis09]

I interned at a pharmacy where the part time pharmacist came from Florida, and I think she said they had collaborative practice agreements.
In Illinois, they were just approved in October. Since there are no regulations about them yet, we can't enter into them yet.

 

[DrgsRmyLife]

I could be wrong, but doesn't a PA or NP need have an agreement with a physician too? Are they allowed to order labs, prescribe, etc...without some type of protocol? So the what would be the difference between a CPP and a NP or PA other than we are pharmacists and their not? I guess I am little confused on their scope and legal aspect of their profession.

 

[NGP78]

I could be wrong, but doesn't a PA or NP need have an agreement with a physician too? Are they allowed to order labs, prescribe, etc...without some type of protocol? So the what would be the difference between a CPP and a NP or PA other than we are pharmacists and their not? I guess I am little confused on their scope and legal aspect of their profession.

Yes, PAs and NPs must have a collaborative agreement with a physician

 

[njac]

Yes, PAs and NPs must have a collaborative agreement with a physician

I think in some scenarios (rural family practice type things) NPs can work on their own license? I could be making that up but I thought it was attainable but in very specific circumstances.

 

[Slntwolf]

I could be wrong, but doesn't a PA or NP need have an agreement with a physician too? Are they allowed to order labs, prescribe, etc...without some type of protocol? So the what would be the difference between a CPP and a NP or PA other than we are pharmacists and their not? I guess I am little confused on their scope and legal aspect of their profession.

The major difference between NP's/PA's and pharmacists is that they are trained to diagnose and pharmacists are not. When it comes to ordering labs, pharmacists in most collaborative agreements with physicians only can order labs that are pertinent towards what medication they are monitoring. Generally, anticoag, diabetes, etc. I think in all states if not most, PA's and NP's can prescribe most everything with very little restriction. PA's are in every field that a doctor practices in. They are also involved in surgery as first assists with their supervising physicians. I will see if I can find a poster to this board to post here and give a much more detailed explanation since he's been a practicing PA for over 20 years.

 

[njac]

The major difference between NP's/PA's and pharmacists is that they are trained to diagnose and pharmacists are not. When it comes to ordering labs, pharmacists in most collaborative agreements with physicians only can order labs that are pertinent towards what medication they are monitoring. Generally, anticoag, diabetes, etc. I think in all states if not most, PA's and NP's can prescribe most everything with very little restriction. PA's are in every field that a doctor practices in. They are also involved in surgery as first assists with their supervising physicians. I will see if I can find a poster to this board to post here and give a much more detailed explanation since he's been a practicing PA for over 20 years.

I guess one of my (many) issues with PAs is that they're "trained to diagnose" in 4 years of undergrad (including prereqs!) and no residency required. A PA who has been a PA for 20 years is a totally different animal than the ones they're pumping out of schools now.

 

[MountainPharmD]

I got excited reading this post! I thought there was going to be a fight between Pharmacists and PA's!

 

[MountainPharmD]

The major difference between NP's/PA's and pharmacists is that they are trained to diagnose and pharmacists are not. When it comes to ordering labs, pharmacists in most collaborative agreements with physicians only can order labs that are pertinent towards what medication they are monitoring. Generally, anticoag, diabetes, etc. I think in all states if not most, PA's and NP's can prescribe most everything with very little restriction. PA's are in every field that a doctor practices in. They are also involved in surgery as first assists with their supervising physicians. I will see if I can find a poster to this board to post here and give a much more detailed explanation since he's been a practicing PA for over 20 years.

Not true. The regs on PA's and NP vary from state to state just like the pharmacy laws do. In Texas PA's and NP's are very restricted with what they can do and prescribe.

 

[Slntwolf]

Not true. The regs on PA's and NP vary from state to state just like the pharmacy laws do. In Texas PA's and NP's are very restricted with what they can do and prescribe.

Right, there are states that are more restrictive.

 

[andrewattheU]

In the future, the profession of pharmacy will collide with PA's. Although we may not practice medicine, our profession as a whole is exploring the idea of expansion into vaccinations, mangement of chronic conditions (MTM), etc.

Their profession is expanding rapidly. Their shortage along with the field growth (I believe 24 percent this year) is making them a profession to be recognized with. Their salary isnt bad with a lot of them starting in the 70's to 80s now depending on region, and can go pass 100k (speciality). I remember when I first started pharmacy school four years ago, their salary was 50-60k. A 20k increase over 4 years is pretty decent, and is still skyrocketing.

They only require 4 years of schooling, giving them the advantage of a 2 year head start, and 2 years free of tuition.

What do you guys think about the future of PA's verus Pharmacists?

PA programs usually actually require prerequisites before entering the program one of which is 2 years of experience in the medical field so they don't generally end up ahead of pharmacists as far as getting done with school early, but PAs do have a bright future as far as the medical field goes they seem to be replacing general practice doctors.

 

[genesis09]

In Illinois, NPs were just given the right to prescribe C2s, if their physician lets them. PAs aren't allowed to prescribe C-2s. NPs and PAs have limited prescriptive authority. They can only prescribe what is in their collaborative agreement. Fortunately, the law states pharmacists are to assume the NPs and PAs are prescribing within their authority.

 

[deleted6669]

Not true. The regs on PA's and NP vary from state to state just like the pharmacy laws do. In Texas PA's and NP's are very restricted with what they can do and prescribe.

actually texas isn't too bad for pa's. there are hospitals that staff their e.d.'s with solo pa's 24/7.

 

[deleted6669]

a lttle backgroundound on pa's- the typical pa student has a bs now with premed requirements + prior medical experience, many at the level of paramedic, nurse, or r.t.
they then attend a 2-3 yr graduate level program, many taught alongside medical students, including >2000 hrs of clinical rotations similar to ms3 or ms4 rotations. they take a national board exam and have to obtain 100 hrs of cme every 2 yrs and retake boards every 6 yrs.
my path to pa was 9 yrs of post high school education not counting yrs working:
bs university of california(4)]
paramedic program(1) -following 4 yrs as an emt/er tech in college
5 yrs medic experience in busy 911 systems
pa school(3)= bs #2(very few ms level programs then)
postgrad masters in em(1) while working at 1st job
=9 yrs
since completing my masters I have also done an additional yr to get a postmasters cert. in adv. clinical studies in family and emergency medicine. I also have most of the major em related certs(acls/atls/pals/fccs/difficult airway/nals/etc)
the avg pa salary last yr was $84,396 for all pa's working > 32 hrs/week. many specialty pa's make >125k/yr, especially in em, surgery,derm, and ortho.
pa's get their own dea #s. I have a sch 2 dea in 2 states and can write for anything except sch 1 meds.
supervision and scope of practice vary by state. some states require an md be present when a pa is seeing pts. most do not. I work as solo coverage in an emergency dept several times monthly. my charts are reviewed hours to days after the pt has gone home or been admitted. some states have no chart review requirement at all while others review 5-10% of the total. many states allow pa's to own their own clinics. supervision in NC for example is 1 documented discussion for 30 min every 6 mo regarding the practice. no on site md ever required. no chart review ever required.
pa's must always have an association with an md. some states call this "supervision" while some call it "sponsorship".
np's can work truly independently without any md involvement in 12 states.
there are a # of dual pa/pharmd programs now(UWa, others) that allow one to complete both programs in 5 yrs. the 2nd yr of pa school fulfills the clinical requirement for the pharmd as well so the student really just does 1 extra yr of didactics in clinical medicine and a more involved clinical yr.
hope that helps.
ps I am a big fan of pharmd's having some independence to adjust meds in anticoag clinics, give vaccinations, etc in collaboration with a physican driven protocol.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

a lttle backgroundound on pa's- the typical pa student has a bs now with premed requirements + prior medical experience, many at the level of paramedic, nurse, or r.t.
they then attend a 2-3 yr graduate level program, many taught alongside medical students, including >2000 hrs of clinical rotations similar to ms3 or ms4 rotations. they take a national board exam and have to obtain 100 hrs of cme every 2 yrs and retake boards every 6 yrs.
my path to pa was 9 yrs of post high school education not counting yrs working:
bs university of california(4)]
paramedic program(1) -following 4 yrs as an emt/er tech in college
5 yrs medic experience in busy 911 systems
pa school(3)= bs #2(very few ms level programs then)
postgrad masters in em(1) while working at 1st job
=9 yrs
since completing my masters I have also done an additional yr to get a postmasters cert. in adv. clinical studies in family and emergency medicine. I also have most of the major em related certs(acls/atls/pals/fccs/difficult airway/nals/etc)
the avg pa salary last yr was $84,396 for all pa's working > 32 hrs/week. many specialty pa's make >125k/yr, especially in em, surgery,derm, and ortho.
pa's get their own dea #s. I have a sch 2 dea in 2 states and can write for anything except sch 1 meds.
supervision and scope of practice vary by state. some states require an md be present when a pa is seeing pts. most do not. I work as solo coverage in an emergency dept several times monthly. my charts are reviewed hours to days after the pt has gone home or been admitted. some states have no chart review requirement at all while others review 5-10% of the total. many states allow pa's to own their own clinics. supervision in NC for example is 1 documented discussion for 30 min every 6 mo regarding the practice. no on site md ever required. no chart review ever required.
pa's must always have an association with an md. some states call this "supervision" while some call it "sponsorship".
np's can work truly independently without any md involvement in 12 states.
there are a # of dual pa/pharmd programs now(UWa, others) that allow one to complete both programs in 5 yrs. the 2nd yr of pa school fulfills the clinical requirement for the pharmd as well so the student really just does 1 extra yr of didactics in clinical medicine and a more involved clinical yr.
hope that helps.
ps I am a big fan of pharmd's having some independence to adjust meds in anticoag clinics, give vaccinations, etc in collaboration with a physican driven protocol.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I have always been interested in learning more about PA's. I have the greatest respect for you guys!

 

[njac]

that sounds like a lovely background before becoming a PA (as far as having a full pre-med pre reqs etc), if every single one of them coming out of school rightnow met that criteria it would be fantastic. but this is what I found at my school:
http://hsc.unm.edu/som/fcm/pap/prereq.shtml

the majority of the prerequisite classes I tested out of before I even started college. I want someone dealing with my health to know more than that.

 

[deleted6669]

that sounds like a lovely background before becoming a PA (as far as having a full pre-med pre reqs etc), if every single one of them coming out of school rightnow met that criteria it would be fantastic. but this is what I found at my school:
http://hsc.unm.edu/som/fcm/pap/prereq.shtml

the majority of the prerequisite classes I tested out of before I even started college. I want someone dealing with my health to know more than that.

did you read your own link?
see the part that says"highly recommended"...that is code for "if you want to get in take these"....o-chem, micro, etc
no one gets into a pa program with the min requirements now with programs having 50+ applicants per seat in class....many programs have 1500+ applications for a class of 30. the interview criteria will change from year to yr. 1 place I help out at during interview season has a "min required gpa of 2.8". last yr no one with a gpa<3.3 even got an interview. the avg gpa for the accepted class was something like 3.6 with at least 2 yrs of medical experience and a prior bs degree in a hard science field.
the "min requirements" exist so that they can interview and accept someone who has been a volunteer in africa for 10 yrs while raising 3 kids as a single parent and taking prereq courses on the weekends while traveling 200 miles each way to do so...( a medical saint).....

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

emdpa, there are some bachelor PA programs out there that I know of. People can apply to them via right out of high school. St Johns university have one of them. The first year and a half, they take basic science core classes with pharmacy students, and then go onto rotations in their last two years.

 

[deleted6669]

emdpa, there are some bachelor PA programs out there that I know of. People can apply to them via right out of high school. St Johns university have one of them. The first year and a half, they take basic science core classes with pharmacy students, and then go onto rotations in their last two years.

most of these are 5 yr programs.....