Air Force Physicians who did flight surgery

[HungryHungryLion]

I am curious about AF physicians and their experience as/with flight surgeons. Without being able to speak frankly with someone who has gone through the process I get a lot of fluff but never a good description of what the job really is like. I'm interested to know the terms of your commitment, how you felt you grew and learned in your practice, whether your enjoyed your time, whether it would be a good stepping stone for someone who wants to explore their options in medicine, or whether it should be avoided at all costs.

If you know a good resource that can help address some of these questions feel free to point me to them, to this point I haven't found anything valuable or anyone who will speak candidly about it as yet.

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[SDN]

I’d highly recommend doing another specialty. Aeromedical docs don’t have a lot of job prospects outside the military.

Do family medicine or general internal medicine if primary care is your interest.

 

[HungryHungryLion]

I’d highly recommend doing another specialty. Aeromedical docs don’t have a lot of job prospects outside the military.

Do family medicine or general internal medicine if primary care is your interest.

Thank you, I should have clarified. I have NO intention of doing it as a career, but am interested in the experience of folks who did it before entering into their desired residency.

 

[armyvascsurg]

First, terminology. Flight Surgeons don't practice "flight surgery" just as Battalion Surgeons don't practice "Battalion Surgery". It's a title, not a specialty. Theoretically you practice Aviation Medicine, though with only an internship and the flight surgeon course under your belt, that's a bit of a stretch. You're a minimally trained primary care doc who's patient base happens to be pilots and crew. As an Army Flight Surgeon, it was fine, probably better than most GMO gigs. My unit was tight and liked to have fun. I've heard most aviation units are similar in that way. You will almost certainly be respected by your unit beyond what your training level should command.

 

[cfbbi]

I am an ANG Flight Doc (I don't even use the term Flight Surgeon -- though correct, it confuses medical people). I love it. However, I was a pilot before becoming a Flight Doc so I have an understanding of my role in the squadron that might be different than those docs who come into this job with no prior service. (I'm not a pilot-physician, however) I am civilian residency trained in another specialty and I will soon be residency trained in Aerospace Medicine and I will likely end up working in Aerospace Medicine. There are actually a lot of very interesting jobs out there as a civilian for an Aerospace Medicine boarded physician. However, if you don't like to fly and you don't like aircrew and their relatively small medical problems (not always, but most are) please don't do it, The aircrew deserve better and you would be frustrated -- you might not feel challenged as a physician and would definitely not be happy because you would be getting behind your classmates who are in residency.

Since you like internet forums, go to baseops. net and lurk there. It's just like this forum except it's for those who want to be military pilots. There is even an aviation medicine forum where candidates ask medical questions to see if they qualify. If you find it interesting, then you might just like being a flight doc.

 

[Dr80s]

I'm a current Air Force GMO flight doc. It's been an incredible experience. I think it's great to see the operational side of the Air Force. Also, the opportunity to work with and care for such an amazing group of people doesn't exist in any other form that I know of. I actually get to see them train and perform the mission in order to understand the environment they work in and what it medically takes to do their jobs. I think it's made me a better doctor and problem-solver. Being a good GMO doc means you are motivated to help your patients. No one holds your hand, so it's up to you to find the information or call for help. Good docs will do that, bad docs will throw some motrin at the problem and go on about their day.

That said, I'm finished serving my HPSP commitment next summer and am right in the middle of applying for civilian residency, which is pretty nerve-wracking. I've definitely lost of a lot of medical knowledge and I know I'll be behind my peers when I start again. I guess another downside is having to go through the whole ERAS process twice - it's expensive, anxiety-provoking and time-consuming. I also wonder how programs are going to view me, since I've been out for 4 years. A big reason I decided not to continue with an active duty residency is the lack of flexibility in military medicine. You will see X number of patients and you will work whatever hours they want you to. They tell you exactly how you will practice and you don't get much of a say in it. While there is a reason for this, my future autonomy is important to me. Also, don't become a flight doc if you get motion sickness. Flying can be awesome, but some wind up hating it because they puke the whole time. Finally, some residency trained docs will be really nice and helpful but some will be straight up rude if you call them for advice and don't know something they thought you should as a GMO. You're a primary care doc trying to do the best you can with minimal training, so you'll have to swallow your pride and do that a lot for the good of your patients.

I hope this helps. I am definitely glad I did it. It's been an amazing adventure.

 

[Cooperd0g]

I'm a current Air Force GMO flight doc. It's been an incredible experience. I think it's great to see the operational side of the Air Force. Also, the opportunity to work with and care for such an amazing group of people doesn't exist in any other form that I know of. I actually get to see them train and perform the mission in order to understand the environment they work in and what it medically takes to do their jobs. I think it's made me a better doctor and problem-solver. Being a good GMO doc means you are motivated to help your patients. No one holds your hand, so it's up to you to find the information or call for help. Good docs will do that, bad docs will throw some motrin at the problem and go on about their day.

That said, I'm finished serving my HPSP commitment next summer and am right in the middle of applying for civilian residency, which is pretty nerve-wracking. I've definitely lost of a lot of medical knowledge and I know I'll be behind my peers when I start again. I guess another downside is having to go through the whole ERAS process twice - it's expensive, anxiety-provoking and time-consuming. I also wonder how programs are going to view me, since I've been out for 4 years. A big reason I decided not to continue with an active duty residency is the lack of flexibility in military medicine. You will see X number of patients and you will work whatever hours they want you to. They tell you exactly how you will practice and you don't get much of a say in it. While there is a reason for this, my future autonomy is important to me. Also, don't become a flight doc if you get motion sickness. Flying can be awesome, but some wind up hating it because they puke the whole time. Finally, some residency trained docs will be really nice and helpful but some will be straight up rude if you call them for advice and don't know something they thought you should as a GMO. You're a primary care doc trying to do the best you can with minimal training, so you'll have to swallow your pride and do that a lot for the good of your patients.

I hope this helps. I am definitely glad I did it. It's been an amazing adventure.

This might be the single best, most concise, and accurate post that pertains to both GMO specifically and military medicine in general. Good luck in your match pursuit @Dr80s.

 

[Dr80s]

This might be the single best, most concise, and accurate post that pertains to both GMO specifically and military medicine in general. Good luck in your match pursuit

Thanks for the props, @Cooperd0g !

 

[River Rat]

best 4 years of my life. including the 2 in North Dakota. Now out and doing Rads and never looking back, but I'll always remember my time fondly. No regrets. If you go in with no sense of entitlement and an open mind, you'll be fine.

 

[HungryHungryLion]

I'm a current Air Force GMO flight doc. It's been an incredible experience. I think it's great to see the operational side of the Air Force. Also, the opportunity to work with and care for such an amazing group of people doesn't exist in any other form that I know of. I actually get to see them train and perform the mission in order to understand the environment they work in and what it medically takes to do their jobs. I think it's made me a better doctor and problem-solver. Being a good GMO doc means you are motivated to help your patients. No one holds your hand, so it's up to you to find the information or call for help. Good docs will do that, bad docs will throw some motrin at the problem and go on about their day.

That said, I'm finished serving my HPSP commitment next summer and am right in the middle of applying for civilian residency, which is pretty nerve-wracking. I've definitely lost of a lot of medical knowledge and I know I'll be behind my peers when I start again. I guess another downside is having to go through the whole ERAS process twice - it's expensive, anxiety-provoking and time-consuming. I also wonder how programs are going to view me, since I've been out for 4 years. A big reason I decided not to continue with an active duty residency is the lack of flexibility in military medicine. You will see X number of patients and you will work whatever hours they want you to. They tell you exactly how you will practice and you don't get much of a say in it. While there is a reason for this, my future autonomy is important to me. Also, don't become a flight doc if you get motion sickness. Flying can be awesome, but some wind up hating it because they puke the whole time. Finally, some residency trained docs will be really nice and helpful but some will be straight up rude if you call them for advice and don't know something they thought you should as a GMO. You're a primary care doc trying to do the best you can with minimal training, so you'll have to swallow your pride and do that a lot for the good of your patients.

I hope this helps. I am definitely glad I did it. It's been an amazing adventure.

I love this response! Thank you for taking the time, I appreciate the candor, I am really considering following a similar path. What has your experience been so far with civilian rotations/the whole application process been? Do you feel like it gives you any advantage or disadvantage to have had the experience? What do PDs tell you?

 

[HungryHungryLion]

I am an ANG Flight Doc (I don't even use the term Flight Surgeon -- though correct, it confuses medical people). I love it. However, I was a pilot before becoming a Flight Doc so I have an understanding of my role in the squadron that might be different than those docs who come into this job with no prior service. (I'm not a pilot-physician, however) I am civilian residency trained in another specialty and I will soon be residency trained in Aerospace Medicine and I will likely end up working in Aerospace Medicine. There are actually a lot of very interesting jobs out there as a civilian for an Aerospace Medicine boarded physician. However, if you don't like to fly and you don't like aircrew and their relatively small medical problems (not always, but most are) please don't do it, The aircrew deserve better and you would be frustrated -- you might not feel challenged as a physician and would definitely not be happy because you would be getting behind your classmates who are in residency.

Since you like internet forums, go to baseops. net and lurk there. It's just like this forum except it's for those who want to be military pilots. There is even an aviation medicine forum where candidates ask medical questions to see if they qualify. If you find it interesting, then you might just like being a flight doc.

I appreciate the advice, I'm still trying to figure everything out about this side AF medicine and I've learned asking people in the trenches is always the best way to get an idea of what's going on. I'm doing board prep right now so time is crazy but when I decide to procrastinate for a minute I'll go check it out.

 

[HungryHungryLion]

First, terminology. Flight Surgeons don't practice "flight surgery" just as Battalion Surgeons don't practice "Battalion Surgery". It's a title, not a specialty. Theoretically you practice Aviation Medicine, though with only an internship and the flight surgeon course under your belt, that's a bit of a stretch. You're a minimally trained primary care doc who's patient base happens to be pilots and crew. As an Army Flight Surgeon, it was fine, probably better than most GMO gigs. My unit was tight and liked to have fun. I've heard most aviation units are similar in that way. You will almost certainly be respected by your unit beyond what your training level should command.

Thanks for the correction. I have heard similar things, that there's great camaraderie and I'd love that aspect. I viewed it as an opportunity for that experience, as well as a chance to get a basic feel for clinical medicine. I'd hoped that it would maybe give a clearer picture of what kind of medicine I'd want to do as a career since I'm a little nervous that a month or two of rotations isn't enough time in a specialty to really know. Hopefully after a couple years practicing in the field I'd have a better lay of the land and know where I wanted to go moving forward. Does that sound reasonable, or is the exposure so limited it doesn't make much difference to what you'd prefer to specialize in after you finish?

 

[deuist]

If you go in with no sense of entitlement and an open mind, you'll be fine.

Entitlement means things that you are owed. If you graduate an allopathic medical program in the United States, you are owed a residency program. You may not get the competitive, high paying specialty that you desire, but you are owed a residency program of some kind. That the Air Force would shift 1/4 of its graduating seniors into flight surgery is absolutely appalling and a disservice to the population at large who expect to have a completely trained doctor in front of them.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Forgive my forum etiquette if it has been too long to post on here, but this seems like the best audience I have found on all of SDN. I'm a prior service guy with an acceptance to USUHS (air force). I am mostly trying to do my research as to what my career might look like. I recognize that the mission of the military is mostly in primary care and that is certainly the direction that they are going in the coming years. I'm cool with that and I genuinely have respect for the role of primary care in medicine. Anyways, I have done quite a bit of reading on being a flight doc and it seems like something I would love. I am wondering if you go through the flight doc course, does that commit you to being a flight doc for the remainder of your career? or is it more like a certification where you could be a flight doc at one duty station, but than do something more typical for your residency training at your next duty station.

I've seen some FM or IM residency programs where you have a dedicated spot to go to the flight doc course after residency. Why is this necessary? Couldn't you just request to get trained as a flight doc, say..., 2 years out of residency?

Also, if I never do the flight doc route what do FM/ IM physicians typically do on base? Do they work family clinics or something?

Disclaimer:
- I am completely open minded about residency
- I know the military can be a load of bs sometimes

 

[militaryPHYS]

Doing Flight is a sub category of a general medical officer tour. Instead of going straight to PGY2 year you can 1) be a basic GMO 2) be a flight surgeon or 3) be an undersea medical officer (UMO)

If you choose flight or UMO there are training schools required which obligates you to about 3 years total (including your training). You train up, then serve around 2 years as a flight surgeon. Then most go back to PGY2 year and finish their residency.

You could choose to keep being a flight doc and not do residency, but most go back, finish their residency and then keep practicing in their specialty.

Technically you could choose to go back and do a utilization tour as a flight surgeon even after completing residency, but you would need your detailer and specialty leader to sign off saying they basically don't need you to practice in your specialty anymore. This is unlikely.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Doing Flight is a sub category of a general medical officer tour. Instead of going straight to PGY2 year you can 1) be a basic GMO 2) be a flight surgeon or 3) be an undersea medical officer (UMO)

If you choose flight or UMO there are training schools required which obligates you to about 3 years total (including your training). You train up, then serve around 2 years as a flight surgeon. Then most go back to PGY2 year and finish their residency.

You could choose to keep being a flight doc and not do residency, but most go back, finish their residency and then keep practicing in their specialty.

Technically you could choose to go back and do a utilization tour as a flight surgeon even after completing residency, but you would need your detailer and specialty leader to sign off saying they basically don't need you to practice in your specialty anymore. This is unlikely.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that is specific to the Navy. From what I’ve been reading, being a flight doc in the Air Force tends to play a larger role than just GMO time. Can anyone verify this?

 

[deuist]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that is specific to the Navy. From what I’ve been reading, being a flight doc in the Air Force tends to play a larger role than just GMO time. Can anyone verify this?

AF does not have undersea medicine. In the AF a doc could theoretically be a flight surgeon his entire career. Residency is required for later promotion, but the GME requirements could he fulfilled by completing a residency in aerospace medicine. Also, look at the list of physicians who become generals. All of them are flight surgeons. It's a slap in the face to physician leaders and scientists who specialized in fields other than aerospace medicine.

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Is it considered to be lower level medicine to be a flight doc?

From the sounds of it, most medical students (air force) are going straight into primary care residencies. If that were the direction I went, would I not want to consider being a flight doc at some point in my career? It seems like a good way to add variety to a career in primary care.

Also, I'm trying to get a feel for what a primary care doctor would work in the air force when not assigned to an operational unit.


Second Disclaimer:
I'm not trying to map out my career in advance. I know that is ridiculous. Considering the needs of the military and the push for primary care, I just want to make sure that its something I can enjoy.

 

[militaryPHYS]

Yeah, sorry. Everything I said was Navy. I glanced over the AF specific part

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Yeah, sorry. Everything I said was Navy. I glanced over the AF specific part

Regardless, thanks for taking the time to respond. I’ve read a lot of your posts in the past and learned a lot about general military stuff.

 

[backrow]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that is specific to the Navy. From what I’ve been reading, being a flight doc in the Air Force tends to play a larger role than just GMO time. Can anyone verify this?

Flight surgery in the Air Force plays the same role as it does in the Navy. It is GMO level. Just as in the Navy you could stay a flight surgeon forever if you wanted, but it’s not recommended for a successful career either as a military officer or physician.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Flight surgery in the Air Force plays the same role as it does in the Navy. It is GMO level. Just as in the Navy you could stay a flight surgeon forever if you wanted, but it’s not recommended for a successful career either as a military officer or physician.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Ok good to know. What then does a primary care doctor typically do when not a flight doc?

Do they staff hospitals at the larger bases?

At the smaller bases, are they treating dependents at clinics?

I’m trying to make more sense of all this because, during my time in the Marines, I was a young single guy that only saw the operational side of medicine.

 

[deuist]

Ok good to know. What then does a primary care doctor typically do when not a flight doc?

Do they staff hospitals at the larger bases?

At the smaller bases, are they treating dependents at clinics?

Whether you do FM, IM, or peds, you will likely see patients in clinic as well as inpatients. You won't do shop visits. Most primary docs don't pursue flight medicine.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Also, look at the list of physicians who become generals. All of them are flight surgeons. It's a slap in the face to physician leaders and scientists who specialized in fields other than aerospace medicine.

Umm, the Air Force is in the business of airplanes and flying. The operational medicine side of the AF pretty much demands being a flight surgeon, which is a 6 week course. And you're not gonna make 07+ in any branch without operational assignments. Looking back over the last 20 years, the Surgeon General of the AF has mostly been board certified in FP, with only one residency trained in Aerospace Medicine.

If you want to whine about AF medicine, whine the current SG is a nurse.

 

[armytrainingsir]

https://www.airforcemedicine.af.mil...AMP-HPSP_Summer_Teleconference_ 24May2017.pdf

 

[nonTradwithPS]

Umm, the Air Force is in the business of airplanes and flying. The operational medicine side of the AF pretty much demands being a flight surgeon, which is a 6 week course. And you're not gonna make 07+ in any branch without operational assignments. Looking back over the last 20 years, the Surgeon General of the AF has mostly been board certified in FP, with only one residency trained in Aerospace Medicine.

If you want to whine about AF medicine, whine the current SG is a nurse.

So would you agree with what was said above, that even in the AF being a flight doc is still more of a GMO role even if you’ve are residency trained?

If a person rolls straight into residency after med school, is volunteering to be a flight doc still an option in their career?

 

[deuist]

Umm, the Air Force is in the business of airplanes and flying. The operational medicine side of the AF pretty much demands being a flight surgeon, which is a 6 week course. And you're not gonna make 07+ in any branch without operational assignments. Looking back over the last 20 years, the Surgeon General of the AF has mostly been board certified in FP, with only one residency trained in Aerospace Medicine.

If you want to whine about AF medicine, whine the current SG is a nurse.

Your post smacks of someone who doesn't know much about Air Force. It's like me saying, "The Navy is about boats, so all of the doctor-admirals should specialize in undersea medicine."

As for the operational side of AF medicine, there's CCATT, TCCET, STS, and yes, flight surgeons. Plus, we're forgetting the docs who, despite being noncombatants, still managed to earn combat action medals and bronze stars for their actions while under attack. But at the end of the day, if you don't have wings on your chest, you aren't making O7.

I've been out for a few years and didn't realize that Gen. Hogg was now the SG. I remember her coming to my emergency department when she was a two-star with plans of observing us for several hours. Within 10 minutes of her arrival, a sick patient showed up in extremis. She ran away without letting us know that she was leaving. I'm not sure what she hoped to observe in an emergency department.