Plan B if things go down the drain?

[miacomet]

The only realistic scenario I can think of where the average physician salary goes to 70k/yr is a legit 1929-style depression. Short of that, if salaries dropped that low we'd all be looking for jobs at FANG or startups, become plumbers, or become lawyers to litigate the fresh wave of malpractice that would arise.

Also, what would happen to nursing salaries? Many hospitals currently offer them 70k/yr or more and cannot recruit. So let's say their pay was only cut down 50% to 35k/yr...how many competent people would choose to be an ER nurse getting assaulted and harassed by patients on a Saturday night? Zero. They'd drive for Uber so at least they could listen to music.

Nurses are unionized in much of the country and patients love them. I don't think it's unreasonable to envision a scenario where nurses are paid more than doctors. But yes, we'd flee the field and become ancillary.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[namethatsmell]

I think it's what the kids these days are calling Facebook, Apple, Netflix and Google or shorthand for the hot places to try to get hired in Silicon Valley.

Yup, that’s FANG. Also a term used by investors.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Nurses are unionized in much of the country and patients love them. I don't think it's unreasonable to envision a scenario where nurses are paid more than doctors. But yes, we'd flee the field and become ancillary.

Nurses being paid more than doctors for their 2 year associate degree than our minimum of 11 years of college, med school and residency?

No body will go to med school, shortage will lead to higher salaries i would hope.

Who in their right mind would incur 200k of debt, go through 10+ years of training and education, slave through 80 hours a week of residency, and give up their 20s for a salary lower than that of a nurse????

 

[RustedFox]

Nurses being paid more than doctors for their 2 year associate degree than our minimum of 11 years of college, med school and residency?

No body will go to med school, shortage will lead to higher salaries i would hope.

Who in their right mind would incur 200k of debt, go through 10+ years of training and education, slave through 80 hours a week of residency, and give up their 20s for a salary lower than that of a nurse????

200K of debt?!

I was at 330K, brah.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

200K of debt?!

I was at 330K, brah.

At a state school if you don't max out loans you can still get out with around 200k.

 

[cyanide12345678]

200K of debt?!

I was at 330K, brah.

I got out with 160k from a Texas State school. It ballooned to 200k by the time i finished residency with interest. National average still sits around 230k.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Nurses are unionized in much of the country and patients love them. I don't think it's unreasonable to envision a scenario where nurses are paid more than doctors. But yes, we'd flee the field and become ancillary.

This will never happen. Like ever.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Idealistic young people.

Nurses being paid more than doctors for their 2 year associate degree than our minimum of 11 years of college, med school and residency?

No body will go to med school, shortage will lead to higher salaries i would hope.

Who in their right mind would incur 200k of debt, go through 10+ years of training and education, slave through 80 hours a week of residency, and give up their 20s for a salary lower than that of a nurse????

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I got out with 160k from a Texas State school. It ballooned to 200k by the time i finished residency with interest. National average still sits around 230k.

2nd year now. 30k debt from undergrad. 90k each year here. I'm definitely going to be close to 500k after residency with all the interest lol

 

[RustedFox]

Idealistic young people.

And "legacy" physician-kids who have never worked a day in their lives (like so many of my classmates).

"I got into medical school, so daddy bought me this Mercedes."

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

2nd year now. 30k debt from undergrad. 90k each year here. I'm definitely going to be close to 500k after residency with all the interest lol

90k each year?!?!

Seriously, what are you doing?

My sincere advice to is to cut and run from med school while you have the chance.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Holy ****. Don't do EM. Do elective spine or something that will cover your debts. Not kidding.

2nd year now. 30k debt from undergrad. 90k each year here. I'm definitely going to be close to 500k after residency with all the interest lol

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

90k each year?!?!

Seriously, what are you doing?

My sincere advice to is to cut and run from med school while you have the chance.

Private MD and DO schools are getting out of control

 

[emergentmd]

So Glad I did state college and state med school 20 yrs ago.

Went to a Top state college, I remember Tuition and Fees for my 1st semester was a whopping $500. Left college with about 10K in loans.

State school with Fees was 8k/yr and took out 15K/yr for Tuition/room/board/living expenses.

Still had 100K after all the interests after Residency.

Same College now is 15x as much for tuition/fees. I would have 300K+ if I did the same path now.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

90k each year?!?!

Seriously, what are you doing?

My sincere advice to is to cut and run from med school while you have the chance.

Lmao.... Are you serious? And I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary. My school at baseline is quite expensive. Why on earth would that not be even MORE motivation to become a physician and earn a high salary? Lmao what would I do with no degree to pay off 200k?

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Holy ****. Don't do EM. Do elective spine or something that will cover your debts. Not kidding.

Yeah... I'm oscillating between FM / IM / EM... I love "medicine" too much to do something too procedural...but perhaps a high paying IM specialty? I've just accepted defeat at this point. I'll be paying off dem loans till I'm dead.

I'm married to a classmate. Soooooo we'll have dual physician income but also dual physician debt. So I don't know if that's a net positive or negative.

 

[RustedFox]

Yeah... I'm oscillating between FM / IM / EM... I love "medicine" too much to do something too procedural...but perhaps a high paying IM specialty? I've just accepted defeat at this point. I'll be paying off dem loans till I'm dead.

I'm married to a classmate. Soooooo we'll have dual physician income but also dual physician debt. So I don't know if that's a net positive or negative.

Dude.

I hear you. Hard.

I'm a physician. Married to a gal, who was a research biochemist.

We knew each other in undergrad (because we were in the same classes; but we never were a 'romantic item')

Immunology.
Vertebrate morphology.
Commercial microbiology.
Applied Cellular biology.

Yeah; those were all of our classes. IN UNDERGRAD.

My undergrad immunology class was waaaaaaay harder than my med school immunology class.

Do you guys really remember how B-cells are propagated?

Me neither.

PGY-10.

Nope. Don't remember it, either.

Its time for medical education to be reformed in this country. HARD.

The PAs say stupid things like; "We take the same courses that narrrgadadly-dobbledy-dobble."

We say stupid things like; "If you can't pass our tests, then you can't do what we do".... yet we let them do what we do, and they can't pass our tests, because they say things like; "I want to THINK about the WHOLE patient" and then SHUT-UP. They wind up doing derm and ortho nonsense from 10a-3p.


GRRRRRRRRRRR.


:/Hard stop.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Yeah... I'm oscillating between FM / IM / EM... I love "medicine" too much to do something too procedural...but perhaps a high paying IM specialty? I've just accepted defeat at this point. I'll be paying off dem loans till I'm dead.

I'm married to a classmate. Soooooo we'll have dual physician income but also dual physician debt. So I don't know if that's a net positive or negative.

So 1 million dollars of debt between you two? Please tell me your spouse plans on becoming an orthopedic surgeon

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Dude.

I hear you. Hard.

I'm a physician. Married to a gal, who was a research biochemist.

We knew each other in undergrad (because we were in the same classes; but we never were a 'romantic item')

Immunology.
Vertebrate morphology.
Commercial microbiology.
Applied Cellular biology.

Yeah; those were all of our classes. IN UNDERGRAD.

My undergrad immunology class was waaaaaaay harder than my med school immunology class.

Do you guys really remember how B-cells are propagated?

Me neither.

PGY-10.

Nope. Don't remember it, either.

Its time for medical education to be reformed in this country. HARD.

The PAs say stupid things like; "We take the same courses that narrrgadadly-dobbledy-dobble."

We say stupid things like; "If you can't pass our tests, then you can't do what we do".... yet we let them do what we do, and they can't pass our tests, because they say things like; "I want to THINK about the WHOLE patient" and then SHUT-UP. They wind up doing derm and ortho nonsense from 10a-3p.


GRRRRRRRRRRR.


:/Hard stop.

I actually really love everything I'm learning so I can't say I want med school to be reformed. I'm not naïve to think I'll ever remember it all, but given something broad like FM or IM, I'll at least be happy to remember a special factoid that might help clue me in to a diagnosis or at least in the ball park (Which is why I think despite FNPs and all that jazz the generalist fields are actually the ones that should be physician dominated) - Plus I hate when PAs/NPs say that whole holistic stuff cuz as a DO we're waaay more holistic than they are (They just haven't met a DO who actually wanted to be a DO or don't know what they are). I had a PA friend from undergrad ask me halfway through first year like "Can a DO be a surgeon"? Then ends up going to work for a DO Urologist lol. But who knows maybe I'll fall in love with surgery during my rotaitons lol

 

[KeikoTanaka]

So 1 million dollars of debt between you two? Please tell me your spouse plans on becoming an orthopedic surgeon

Nah they wanna do psych haha. Although, funny you mention orthopedic because his mom is actually an orthopedic and is not paying off his debts, but is at least helping with his interests, and have offered to help us with a down payment on a home in the future.... so... at least we have that going for us

 

[thegenius]

Do you guys really remember how B-cells are propagated?

Isn't when you do a No. 2? That's how they propagate in my neck of the woods.

 

[cyanide12345678]

So Glad I did state college and state med school 20 yrs ago.

Went to a Top state college, I remember Tuition and Fees for my 1st semester was a whopping $500. Left college with about 10K in loans.

State school with Fees was 8k/yr and took out 15K/yr for Tuition/room/board/living expenses.

Still had 100K after all the interests after Residency.

Same College now is 15x as much for tuition/fees. I would have 300K+ if I did the same path now.

My top 20 Texas State school tuition and fee was 17.5k. I love Texas, the schools are still cheap there. This was only 5 or so years ago. The remaining loans were living expenses.

I have gotten exactly two attending paychecks so far. My 200k total debt burden is now down to 112k due to some aggressive payments and residency moonlighting. Plan is to be debt free in another 5 or 6 months. Paying $20k per month now.

 

[Fox800]

My top 20 Texas State school tuition and fee was 17.5k. I love Texas, the schools are still cheap there. This was only 5 or so years ago. The remaining loans were living expenses.

I have gotten exactly two attending paychecks so far. My 200k total debt burden is now down to 112k due to some aggressive payments and residency moonlighting. Plan is to be debt free in another 5 or 6 months. Paying $20k per month now.

How are you putting $20k a month post-tax towards loans? You must be working 187,000 hours a month, or working at some ridiculously high-paying site hospital.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

How are you putting $20k a month post-tax towards loans? You must be working 187,000 hours a month, or working at some ridiculously high-paying site hospital.

Maybe hes living on ramen, stimulants, and pure despair?

 

[emergentmd]

300K debt with a doc making 300k after tax is much harder to pay off than 2 docs making 600K after tax with 600K debt.

Even if you live a very upper class lifestyle with 200K a year, it would take you much longer to pay off the 300K debt.

With 2 docs, you still would bank 400K that you can throw all into debt. Takes you 2 yrs tops.

 

[Kuratz]

Cost of attendance at my alma mater state med school is $100k/yr for OOS students, and the DO school in the area is also right at $100k/yr. I suppose you could cut this down to $90k with a beans and rice budget. At 7% interest rate though this balloons to nearly $450k before even the end of med school. For most people, having less than $200k either means you were able to get into your in-state school or you have outside help. The average student loan debt is greatly skewed by people who have no debt at all (family, HSPS) and folks who still get tens of thousands of dollars in help from their folks. Kids from true middle class families end up with sky high debts that are dauntingly huge and force many into sub-specialization out of financial necessity.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Probably high paying IM subspecialty, assuming you can snag the fellowship.

Your other half can do alright in psych if they're willing to hustle.

Yeah... I'm oscillating between FM / IM / EM... I love "medicine" too much to do something too procedural...but perhaps a high paying IM specialty? I've just accepted defeat at this point. I'll be paying off dem loans till I'm dead.

I'm married to a classmate. Soooooo we'll have dual physician income but also dual physician debt. So I don't know if that's a net positive or negative.

 

[wamcp]

This will never happen. Like ever.

Of course it can. Nurses can get paid 40/hr due to union bargaining power while docs under ‘medicare for all’ get 130k a year but after you calculate the hours forced upon docs, we end up getting 35/hr

 

[cyanide12345678]

How are you putting $20k a month post-tax towards loans? You must be working 187,000 hours a month, or working at some ridiculously high-paying site hospital.

12 x 12 shifts a month at my full time gig with here and there moonlighting at another gig. Usually average 1 moonlighting shift a month, so 13 x 12 hour shifts usually.

Gross 1099 monthly income ~ 40k.

20k towards loans, 15k towards quarterly taxes in the bank, leaves plenty of money for living expenses which are fairly minimal as we live in a low cost of living area in an apartment.

Plus 55k w2 income from pgy2 resident spouse who happens to have 0 loans because she's one of those IMGs that paid $150/year for annual tuition for med school abroad

One resident salary alone is sufficient for our expenses.

It's really not that hard to pay 20k monthly honestly.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Maybe hes living on ramen, stimulants, and pure despair?

More like salmon, fresh fruits, and delicious Pakistani cuisine platters cooked by a local lady who runs a cash business from her home will go home to some chicken tikkas, beef kababs, chicken biryani

Those ramen days are behind me. Never again.

 

[BoardingDoc]

It's really not that hard to pay 20k monthly honestly.*

* Provided you work 156 hrs/mo, have no kids, live in a low COL area and have a spouse who is a resident so that they don't mind not seeing you or living like a resident.

This isn't meant as a dig BTW. Honestly, good for you. I just think that your situation isn't quite as generalizable as you might think.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Of course it can. Nurses can get paid 40/hr due to union bargaining power while docs under ‘medicare for all’ get 130k a year but after you calculate the hours forced upon docs, we end up getting 35/hr

Who's saying if push came to shove physicians wouldn't do the same thing?

More like salmon, fresh fruits, and delicious Pakistani cuisine platters cooked by a local lady who runs a cash business from her home will go home to some chicken tikkas, beef kababs, chicken biryani

Those ramen days are behind me. Never again.

I found the one good indian restaurant in my town and I will, the weekend before a test, order 3 chicken makhanis and eat 1/2 of one for lunch, the other half for dinner, and that will be my "study fuel" for 3 days lol

 

[RustedFox]

More like salmon, fresh fruits, and delicious Pakistani cuisine platters cooked by a local lady who runs a cash business from her home will go home to some chicken tikkas, beef kababs, chicken biryani

Those ramen days are behind me. Never again.

I found the one good indian restaurant in my town and I will, the weekend before a test, order 3 chicken makhanis and eat 1/2 of one for lunch, the other half for dinner, and that will be my "study fuel" for 3 days lol

Knock it off, guys. You're making me hungry, and I'm hungover.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

>200K debt here. My plan is to just to go on REPAYE and pay the minimum 10% a year until I die. Can anyone tell me the fault in my plan?

 

[deleted109597]

>200K debt here. My plan is to just to go on REPAYE and pay the minimum 10% a year until I die. Can anyone tell me the fault in my plan?

You'll never finish paying it off? It won't ever get smaller? Once you retire, you won't have an income stream big enough to cancel it?

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

(c) conducting a comprehensive review of regulatory policies that create disparities in reimbursement between physicians and non-physician practitioners and proposing a regulation that would, to the extent allowed by law, ensure that items and services provided by clinicians, including physicians, physician assistants, and nurse practitioners, are appropriately reimbursed in accordance with the work performed rather than the clinician’s occupation.

LOL

Source: Executive Order on Protecting and Improving Medicare for Our Nation's Seniors | The White House

 

[DrDuck2]

>200K debt here. My plan is to just to go on REPAYE and pay the minimum 10% a year until I die. Can anyone tell me the fault in my plan?

Given the avg attending EM salary according to MedScape was ~350,000 in 2018, you will be paying ~ 2,800 a month for about 12 years and then the whole balance will be paid off. I played with some numbers using a 300,000 debt using this calculator. https://studentloanhero.com/calculators/student-loan-revised-pay-as-you-earn-calculator/

And REPAYE uses the household gross income to calculate monthly payment, so if your spouse makes money, then the monthly payment will be higher.

If you're loans are only 200k then you will be done sooner than 12 years obviously.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Of course it can. Nurses can get paid 40/hr due to union bargaining power while docs under ‘medicare for all’ get 130k a year but after you calculate the hours forced upon docs, we end up getting 35/hr

Will never happen.

If does, I literally saw a sign for in and out paying $17/hr to start. Maybe I'll go there

 

[cyanide12345678]

* Provided you work 156 hrs/mo, have no kids, live in a low COL area and have a spouse who is a resident so that they don't mind not seeing you or living like a resident.

This isn't meant as a dig BTW. Honestly, good for you. I just think that your situation isn't quite as generalizable as you might think.

More or less agreed. Though even if i did 144 monthly hours, i still wouldn't have had issues with 20k payments.

Im off 17-19 days a month. My spouse sees me enough

You guys do make it sound more complicated than it is though. Median annual US household income is 60k pretax. So maybe 50k post tax. Even after 20k/month payments we still roughly have annually 80-90k left post tax theoretically. That's still more than 75 percent of Americans. That's not a broke lifestyle where we're forced to have a "resident" lifestyle.

Most doctors could pay off debt very aggressively if they truly wanted to and prioritized it. I paid $34k as a moonlighting pgy3. It's really not that hard with a second household income.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Will never happen.

If does, I literally saw a sign for in and out paying $17/hr to start. Maybe I'll go there

Lol. I would just work soooo bare minimum. So would many other physicians. It would cause such a back up in the system the government would realize they need to pay us more.

Only way I'd work for ~130-150k (If a FM salary is 220k now on average) is if they wiped my student loan debt clean @ the same time.

 

[RustedFox]

Only way I'd work for ~130-150k (If a FM salary is 220k now on average) is if they wiped my student loan debt clean @ the same time.

Who wants to point out the obvious cognitive error in this statement?

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Who wants to point out the obvious cognitive error in this statement?

That eventually, once you're on their leash, they'll just keep driving that salary lower and lower? XD

 

[RustedFox]

That eventually, once you're on their leash, they'll just keep driving that salary lower and lower? XD

No.

That the ROI after all those years invested (opportunity cost) puts you far behind other non-medical jobs.

Dude. I like you. I do NOT mean this to belittle or demean you in any fashion. For real.

I can work from home doing chart review and make more than 150K a year. No malpractice. No nights/weekends. No having to work with the muggles at large (The number one cause of burnout is... the patient.)

If you want me to spend 11+ years of my life after high-school (college, med.school, residency, +) preparing for a job, then I best be making freaking bank. Certainly enough to make up for lost years of retirement savings, and to set me apart from the proles.

On a related note (props to Mrs. Fox for bringing this up in discussion today).

I can't believe how insolent and disrespectful the general public is when it comes down to their interactions with us as ER docs.

Mrs. Fox is a former vaccine biochemist. She worked on the assay design/development teams at MERCK and GSK on things that you might have heard about (Gardasil. QuadPro. Rotateq.)

Her sister (a perfect case for this post) is an anti-vaxxer who couldn't pass high-school chemistry, and got pushed thru high-school because "no child is left behind". She likes to say things like: "this product is ALL NATURAL, so you know that it's good for the baby". (NOTE: I'm no longer invited to their place after suggesting that they wipe the baby's ass with poison ivy leaves, because "it's all natural, so you know it's good for the baby.")

Sister in law loves to take to the internet at every opportunity to bash the applied biosciences, favoring various witchcraft and folk remedies. This drives Mrs. Fox up the damn wall, as it should.

With regularity, I have patients argue with me over x-and-y because they've "done their research on the internet" and what I'm suggesting is their problem can't POSSIBLY be the SINGULAR THING that's wrong with them. I want to grab them by the ears and scream: "Duuude! I've spent 11 years after high school training to be there for you in your hour of need. You've spent 11 minutes on Google and you think you know more than me. Okay. Go ahead; fix yourself. Next patient!"

Forgive me if I demand at THE VERY LEAST 200 an hour to do the life-saving work that I do at any hot second.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

No.

That the ROI after all those years invested (opportunity cost) puts you far behind other non-medical jobs.

Dude. I like you. I do NOT mean this to belittle or demean you in any fashion. For real.

I can work from home doing chart review and make more than 150K a year. No malpractice. No nights/weekends. No having to work with the muggles at large (The number one cause of burnout is... the patient.)

If you want me to spend 11+ years of my life after high-school (college, med.school, residency, +) preparing for a job, then I best be making freaking bank. Certainly enough to make up for lost years of retirement savings, and to set me apart from the proles.

On a related note (props to Mrs. Fox for bringing this up in discussion today).

I can't believe how insolent and disrespectful the general public is when it comes down to their interactions with us as ER docs.

Mrs. Fox is a former vaccine biochemist. She worked on the assay design/development teams at MERCK and GSK on things that you might have heard about (Gardasil. QuadPro. Rotateq.)

Her sister (a perfect case for this post) is an anti-vaxxer who couldn't pass high-school chemistry, and got pushed thru high-school because "no child is left behind". She likes to say things like: "this product is ALL NATURAL, so you know that it's good for the baby". (NOTE: I'm no longer invited to their place after suggesting that they wipe the baby's ass with poison ivy leaves, because "it's all natural, so you know it's good for the baby.")

Sister in law loves to take to the internet at every opportunity to bash the applied biosciences, favoring various witchcraft and folk remedies. This drives Mrs. Fox up the damn wall, as it should.

With regularity, I have patients argue with me over x-and-y because they've "done their research on the internet" and what I'm suggesting is their problem can't POSSIBLY be the SINGULAR THING that's wrong with them. I want to grab them by the ears and scream: "Duuude! I've spent 11 years after high school training to be there for you in your hour of need. You've spent 11 minutes on Google and you think you know more than me. Okay. Go ahead; fix yourself. Next patient!"

Forgive me if I demand at THE VERY LEAST 200 an hour to do the life-saving work that I do at any hot second.

No offense taken - When I said 150k I was talking about "Worse case scenario" for PRIMARY CARE. Not ED. That's why I compared the 150k to the 220k average FM Salary.

Of course I wouldn't be happy with that - And I'd definitely want more because I know my future worth - But, I'm talking about hypothetically in a situation where salaries are drastically cut - they better wipe my damn loans clean lol, the salary part was kinda irrelevant.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Lol. I would just work soooo bare minimum. So would many other physicians. It would cause such a back up in the system the government would realize they need to pay us more.

Only way I'd work for ~130-150k (If a FM salary is 220k now on average) is if they wiped my student loan debt clean @ the same time.

So you'd take a 70-90k annual pay cut over a 30 year career, so at the minimum 2.1 million dollar pay cut over the lifespan of your career (without even accounting for any compound grown of investments) for someone to pay off your 300k or whatever debt?

 

[KeikoTanaka]

So you'd take a 70-90k annual pay cut over a 30 year career, so at the minimum 2.1 million dollar pay cut over the lifespan of your career (without even accounting for any compound grown of investments) for someone to pay off your 300k or whatever debt?

Well, I kinda assumed this was due to an unstoppable force of social revolution/culture that I had no control over that inevitably leads to a socialized healthcare system. Obviously I'd be really bummed but like what else could I do?

 

[cyanide12345678]

Well, I kinda assumed this was due to an unstoppable force of social revolution/culture that I had no control over that inevitably leads to a socialized healthcare system. Obviously I'd be really bummed but like what else could I do?

Cash only practice.

Plastic surgery, psychiatry, dermatology.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Cash only practice.

Plastic surgery, psychiatry, dermatology.

Yeah as I think about specialties I wanna do, I like that FM / IM can be so diverse in their practice options, and end up doing something like DPC if you wanted (Which I assume won't be outlawed in a socialistic system). My husband and I would love to do like a "Holistic mind and body" clinic if I do FM/SM and he is Psych haha. But we'll see. That's the one thing about EM I don't necessarily like is your fewer options as to a workplace environment, without feeling like you're leaving your specialty completely.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Cash only practice.

Plastic surgery, psychiatry, dermatology.

As I've said, clinic/hospital across the border in Mexico or Canada that treats cash-paying Americans. It will be incredibly lucrative.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

As I've said, clinic/hospital across the border in Mexico or Canada that treats cash-paying Americans. It will be incredibly lucrative.

Why does it have to be across the border? I think under some versions of Medicare for All, private insurance will be abolished; are we assuming that cash-only practice will be prohibited as well?