Please Help. Dismissed from Med School after Senior Year

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KevD

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This is just a horror story, but my school dismissed me because I did not pass the USMLE Step 2 exam on my 3rd attempt. The school requires its students pass Step 2 to be awarded the MD degree, and has as its policy a 3-Attempts Rule. So, despite my completing and passing all my required classes and rotations and in-school exams (several in which I received an Honors grade), my school dismissed me per this horrific policy of theirs.

I checked the USMLE site and they say they recommend six attempts per USMLE Step exam. My school limits it to three, and I found out that most med schools have no such policy in place at all! I contacted a USMLE rep and he says that it's the medical school that sets the final policy, that their's (USMLE) is merely a suggestion. I should add that on each of my repeat attempts on the test I got progressively closer to passing, so that on my last time taking the exam I missed passing by 1% !

So I guess I need to know what recourse I have? One of my school's deans met with me to discuss my options but they were basically: apply to med schools in Europe, or off-shore. But there has to be some other option other than repeat it all over again. Should I speak to an attorney about this? It's infuriating that I'm being denied what I have strived so long to achieve when, had I chosen my 2nd choice med school (U of Illinois), I would not be in this situation as they have no such graduation policy. My wife graduated Georgetown Med School and they had no policy such as this either.
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You should go to the link that DrBowtie posted. Unfortunately, the information on that link is often overlooked.

You should sit down and seriously assess your situation at this point in time. Your situation is terrible to be in, but as it stands right now, your possibilities to be a licensed physician in the US are limited. Even if your school took you back and you passed Step 2 in your 4th attempt many states would not license you. If you enroll in a foreign med school and graduate with a medical diploma, given the fact that you were dismissed from a US school, obtained a foreign degree, and took at least four attempts to pass Step 2, your chances at obtaining a residency spot in the US would be very, very difficult.

You should get together with a counselor from your school and discuss your options carefully. Also consider PA school as well (I know, that sounds like a consolation prize).
 
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If you are still able to get student loans, get as much cash as you can. Then leave the country. Teach english somewhere, marry a foreigner, never come back. A buddy of mine who went into almost 300k of debt from undergrad and law school did that and has been in south korea for 6 or 7 years now.
 
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DrArete said:
If you are still able to get student loans, get as much cash as you can. Then leave the country. Teach english somewhere, marry a foreigner, never come back. A buddy of mine who went into almost 300k of debt from undergrad and law school did that and has been in south korea for 6 or 7 years now.
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wow... sounds like this could be a theme for a movie.
 
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Agree that the issue is likely to be that you can no longer be licensed in that state. My school had this policy for the exact same reason.

To answer your question, no, I don't think you should lawyer up. The school has a clearly stated requirement for graduation, and you failed to meet it. I'm not saying it doesn't suck that you've done all this work and won't be getting your MD for it, but it's not like they sprung this surprise on you without warning after you were four years in. And they do have a point: the fact that you failed Step 2 three times in a row *is* kind of concerning.

What makes the most sense is for you to speak to the career office at your school to see what your options in this country realistically are at this point. Because I agree with you that going to a foreign school is pretty ridiculous and unlikely to lead to success; you'd still be stuck in the exact same position with the added disadvantage of applying for residency as an IMG. That will do nothing to help your cause. Hopefully they will have some ideas, because short of retraining for something else like shinken suggested, I'm not really sure what you can do either....I guess if you know what specialty you were wanting to apply for, you could train to do something else in that field. Like, get a degree in psychology if you were going to do psychiatry, for example.

Best of luck--hope you can figure something out.
 
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I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. After going through all that hard work, it must be an awful feeling to have this one hurdle get in your way.

I would try contacting as many other US medical schools (both MD and also DO) as you can that don't have such a policy to explore if they would be willing to even consider letting you transfer into their program.

If I were you, I'd probably try to exhaust my options at trying to work something otu with the school and then try to look into transferring to a different US school. If you can find an American med school that would give you a chance, I think that option would be better than finishing overseas. On this forum someone did post about being re-accepted to a different DO school after getting kicked out originally for academic problems, so while I ahven't heard of someone being in your exact shoes, it seems like it might be a possible option.
 
I say this with complete ignorance of the DO side of things, so perhaps this is preposterous, but do DO schools have different boards? Could you transfer/gain admission to a DO school, take their boards, and then complete an osteopathic residency?
 
First of all, sorry that you are in this position.
I think it's going to be hard for you to get into another US school - I honestly don't think it is very likely.
You should think honestly about where you want to live, and find out whether that state will even accept people who had to take >3 tries at one of the USMLE steps.
I personally don't see why schools make this requirement - it seems that graduating should depend on completing the curriculum and not on passing Step 2, but I agree it is concerning if someone completed med school but couldn't pass. It makes me concerned about both the person and the school/education they got.
It seems like even if the person is not going to be able to get a residency, it would be in the school's interest if people can graduate...otherwise they have created a person with a ton of debt but no degree and few career options.

You might be able to get another medically-related job - researcher in an academic medical center, pharmaceutical rep, etc. Also, I'm not sure what your undergrad degree was in, but you may be able to get a job in a related field...

I'm worried that you may need another degree now - MPH, MS in science, etc. since finishing med school might be super hard. I'm sure some Caribbean school would take you, but it would be awful to do a couple more years of med school and then still not be able to get a residency. I suppose you could transfer to a Caribbean school just in order to get a degree, but I'm not sure how much a diploma from one of those places is going to be worth alone (if you still have a significant risk of not getting a residency after). I think if you are thinking of going to the Caribbean, you should make sure you pass Step 2 first, because you don't want to be in the position of being ineligible for residency after you finish there.
 
BrightandClear said:
I say this with complete ignorance of the DO side of things, so perhaps this is preposterous, but do DO schools have different boards? Could you transfer/gain admission to a DO school, take their boards, and then complete an osteopathic residency?
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DO schools have similar boards called COMLEX. DO students must take COMLEX 1 after 2nd year before rotations, then COMLEX 2-CE and COMLEX 2-PE. They're allowed 3 tries on each test. 3rd fail is dismissal - no DO degree.

Most DO students study for both USMLE and COMLEX - they usually take them within the same week or so, because the material is the same except for OMM. (DO schools use the same textbooks and study guides as MD schools - except for the OMM class).

As far as transfers (aka "admission in advanced standing" to 3rd year), DO schools rarely allow transfers, and they typically have a policy against admitting students who have been dismissed from other schools.
 
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KevD said:
This is just a horror story, but my school dismissed me because I did not pass the USMLE Step 2 exam on my 3rd attempt. The school requires its students pass Step 2 to be awarded the MD degree, and has as its policy a 3-Attempts Rule. So, despite my completing and passing all my required classes and rotations and in-school exams (several in which I received an Honors grade), my school dismissed me per this horrific policy of theirs.

I checked the USMLE site and they say they recommend six attempts per USMLE Step exam. My school limits it to three, and I found out that most med schools have no such policy in place at all! I contacted a USMLE rep and he says that it's the medical school that sets the final policy, that their's (USMLE) is merely a suggestion. I should add that on each of my repeat attempts on the test I got progressively closer to passing, so that on my last time taking the exam I missed passing by 1% !

So I guess I need to know what recourse I have? One of my school's deans met with me to discuss my options but they were basically: apply to med schools in Europe, or off-shore. But there has to be some other option other than repeat it all over again. Should I speak to an attorney about this? It's infuriating that I'm being denied what I have strived so long to achieve when, had I chosen my 2nd choice med school (U of Illinois), I would not be in this situation as they have no such graduation policy. My wife graduated Georgetown Med School and they had no policy such as this either.
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Sorry to hear about your situation. By how much did you miss passing step 2? Also, did you have enough time to prepare adequately? It seems rather harsh and unfair that you wouldn't be able to at least graduate and get your MD after so much hard work. It also looks badly upon the school to have someone not be able to graduate, and have a ton of debt with no degree. Did you have any academic issues during the remainder of medical school?

I have not heard of such a policy, my school did not have a policy on the number of step attempts, but did have a certain number of years for completion. Are you able to appeal the decision to a committee or something like that? I know there were some students at my school who went before an appeal committee. Is that an option for you? Do you have any professor that can vouch for you, or something of the sort? That might help.

Sorry to hear about this, I hope you can work something out.
 
WOW! What a story! What medical school is this? Do you know anyone else in your situation from the school? I would find as many resources as possible so that you can still graduate with that MD! You've worked so hard for this so don't take no for an answer!

Best of luck!

KevD said:
This is just a horror story, but my school dismissed me because I did not pass the USMLE Step 2 exam on my 3rd attempt. The school requires its students pass Step 2 to be awarded the MD degree, and has as its policy a 3-Attempts Rule. So, despite my completing and passing all my required classes and rotations and in-school exams (several in which I received an Honors grade), my school dismissed me per this horrific policy of theirs.

I checked the USMLE site and they say they recommend six attempts per USMLE Step exam. My school limits it to three, and I found out that most med schools have no such policy in place at all! I contacted a USMLE rep and he says that it's the medical school that sets the final policy, that their's (USMLE) is merely a suggestion. I should add that on each of my repeat attempts on the test I got progressively closer to passing, so that on my last time taking the exam I missed passing by 1% !

So I guess I need to know what recourse I have? One of my school's deans met with me to discuss my options but they were basically: apply to med schools in Europe, or off-shore. But there has to be some other option other than repeat it all over again. Should I speak to an attorney about this? It's infuriating that I'm being denied what I have strived so long to achieve when, had I chosen my 2nd choice med school (U of Illinois), I would not be in this situation as they have no such graduation policy. My wife graduated Georgetown Med School and they had no policy such as this either.
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KevD said:
This is just a horror story, but my school dismissed me because I did not pass the USMLE Step 2 exam on my 3rd attempt. The school requires its students pass Step 2 to be awarded the MD degree, and has as its policy a 3-Attempts Rule. So, despite my completing and passing all my required classes and rotations and in-school exams (several in which I received an Honors grade), my school dismissed me per this horrific policy of theirs.

I checked the USMLE site and they say they recommend six attempts per USMLE Step exam. My school limits it to three, and I found out that most med schools have no such policy in place at all! I contacted a USMLE rep and he says that it's the medical school that sets the final policy, that their's (USMLE) is merely a suggestion. I should add that on each of my repeat attempts on the test I got progressively closer to passing, so that on my last time taking the exam I missed passing by 1% !

So I guess I need to know what recourse I have? One of my school's deans met with me to discuss my options but they were basically: apply to med schools in Europe, or off-shore. But there has to be some other option other than repeat it all over again. Should I speak to an attorney about this? It's infuriating that I'm being denied what I have strived so long to achieve when, had I chosen my 2nd choice med school (U of Illinois), I would not be in this situation as they have no such graduation policy. My wife graduated Georgetown Med School and they had no policy such as this either.
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Ok, you are likely going to take this the wrong way, but please understand it is not meant to come across bad.

As a father that adopts medical-needs kids I spend a lot of time in teaching hospitals as a patient. I try to be very forgiving and understanding of Interns; but if I knew one had failed STEP 2 three times, I would refuse to consent for them to treat my child. And I legally have that right. It is nothing about them personally, but the test exists for a reason; and repeat failures point to a problem EITHER in the student OR the program.

I would honestly look at what has occurred and do as other say and talk to your program about where to go from here.
 
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pangenesis said:
DO schools have similar boards called COMLEX. DO students must take COMLEX 1 after 2nd year before rotations, then COMLEX 2-CE and COMLEX 2-PE. They're allowed 3 tries on each test. 3rd fail is dismissal - no DO degree.

Most DO students study for both USMLE and COMLEX - they usually take them within the same week or so, because the material is the same except for OMM. (DO schools use the same textbooks and study guides as MD schools - except for the OMM class).

As far as transfers (aka "admission in advanced standing" to 3rd year), DO schools rarely allow transfers, and they typically have a policy against admitting students who have been dismissed from other schools.
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Are DO students really dismissed if they fail a board exam 3 times? I am a DO student and never heard about this. Then again, I don't know anybody who failed it more than once, so it's not something I've ever thought about.

From what I've seen at my school, I would not say most DO students take both exams. We were actually discouraged by the dean from taking the USMLE. He said most MD programs will accept the COMLEX and any that don't aren't programs we would want to be at (because if they don't take our boards, they obviously don't think our degrees are as good as MDs). Also, there was a 4th year student when I was in my 1st or 2nd year who suggested only taking either step 1 or 2 of the the USMLE, not both, and only for certain specialties. Based on the match lists and other information posted by classmates and people in classes before mine I would say between 1/3 and 1/2 of each class takes some part of the USMLE.
 
LifeTake2 said:
Ok, you are likely going to take this the wrong way, but please understand it is not meant to come across bad.

As a father that adopts medical-needs kids I spend a lot of time in teaching hospitals as a patient. I try to be very forgiving and understanding of Interns; but if I knew one had failed STEP 2 three times, I would refuse to consent for them to treat my child. And I legally have that right. It is nothing about them personally, but the test exists for a reason; and repeat failures point to a problem EITHER in the student OR the program.

I would honestly look at what has occurred and do as other say and talk to your program about where to go from here.
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Ok, you are likely going to take this the wrong way, but that was the dumbest thing i've ever read
 
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pangenesis said:
As far as transfers (aka "admission in advanced standing" to 3rd year), DO schools rarely allow transfers, and they typically have a policy against admitting students who have been dismissed from other schools.
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I would imagine that you can't get a DO degree without completing the first two years at a DO school. There is an extra class taken in the preclinical years that is required. I may be wrong on this, but I *think* it is the reason that DOs can participate in the MD match (we have the same training as MDs) but MDs can't participate in the DO match (they don't have the "extra piece" of training).

I'm sorry you are in this awful position. I wish you the best of luck and I hope that your hard work is not wasted.
 
Thanks for all the responses and sincere suggestions. To answer a few questions:

My med school was Howard University College of Medicine. There were at least two other students in my class in the same situation, just as there were 3 or 4 in the class ahead of me, and likely that pattern persists going back. One of the students in my class is going to enter med school in Germany, but she speaks German so that's good for her. The other is trying to get into a grad school public health program.

As for being limited in what states I'd be allowed to practice in due to my needing several attempts to pass the exams, I appreciate the info as I had no idea there were any such restrictions. But I honestly don't care at this point. That's a bridge I'll cross when I get there. I just want the degree that I feel I earned and paid for. I have a mortgage in student loans that are due and even if I can't practice medicine I could still get a much higher salary with that degree than without.

I spoke to a contact at the AMA Medical Education Dept about this and he informed me that most US schools do not have a requirement to pass the boards to get the MD degree, and that many don't require that you even take the boards! It just seems like an unfair and ruinous policy to me, and not just now because I'm on the butt-end of it.

Well, I'll figure out something. But thanks again for the frank advice.
 
I think most of us agree that getting your degree shouldn't be contingent on passing the USMLE, but unfortunately, it doesn't matter what we think. It also doesn't matter what most schools require; *your* school requires that you pass CK within three tries. This policy is stated clearly in the USMLE section of the student handbook: any student who fails to pass CK/CS on the third attempt will be dismissed from the med school. I don't see what grounds you think you might have to "force" them to award you a degree when you clearly failed to meet the academic standards they require for graduation. Again, it sucks majorly, especially since you spent four years there and took out all of the loans, but none of that changes the basic fact that you didn't meet the requirements for your degree.

Instead of complaining about how unfair the policy is, you'd be better served by figuring out what your options are and pursuing them. For one, it looks like you have the option of appealing your dismissal to the Dean; have you tried that? Because on the next page of the handbook after the USMLE stuff, they talk about students repeating courses, including their policies on students repeating courses after being dismissed from the med school and then readmitted. So obviously it is possible for a dismissed student to be readmitted in certain circumstances.

I suggest you start by reading through the handbook carefully to make sure you understand all of the policies and procedures to make an appeal to the Dean. You should also introspect about what went wrong. The vast majority of American students pass CK on the first try, or maybe the second try at worst. Why didn't you? (You don't have to post the answer here, but be honest with yourself about identifying what the deficiencies were.) It's safe to assume that you must have passed Step 1, because if you hadn't, the school would have dismissed you after your second year. So what was different this time? If you're going to ask to be readmitted, what is your plan to ensure that you can and will meet the graduation requirements this time around? Will you repeat years 3/4? Take a prep course? If there was some kind of personal issue going on, how will you show that it will no longer interfere with your studies?

I think if you can approach the Dean with an honest assessment of the problem and a realistic plan to overcome your deficiencies, you might have some chance of success. But you need to be willing to accept responsibility for remedying whatever academic deficiencies you have, and you can't walk in there considering yourself entitled to a degree just because you paid for it and think one of the requirements to get it is unfair.
 
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KevD said:
I spoke to a contact at the AMA Medical Education Dept about this and he informed me that most US schools do not have a requirement to pass the boards to get the MD degree, and that many don't require that you even take the boards!
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I'm no expert when it comes to allopathic schools, but what this contact at the AMA told you seems to me to be 100% incorrect. You might want to double-check this information.

Perhaps the number of tries is different for other schools, but as far as I know pretty much every medical school in the US (MD or DO) requires you to pass Step 1 to participate in clinicals, and most require you to pass Step 2 to graduate. I know of *some* schools that don't require you to pass Step 2 to graduate, but not *most*.

Can you honestly imagine that MOST US medical schools graduate their students without requiring them to pass Steps 1 and 2? Think about it.
 
KevD said:
This is just a horror story, but my school dismissed me because I did not pass the USMLE Step 2 exam on my 3rd attempt. The school requires its students pass Step 2 to be awarded the MD degree, and has as its policy a 3-Attempts Rule. So, despite my completing and passing all my required classes and rotations and in-school exams (several in which I received an Honors grade), my school dismissed me per this horrific policy of theirs.

I checked the USMLE site and they say they recommend six attempts per USMLE Step exam. My school limits it to three, and I found out that most med schools have no such policy in place at all! I contacted a USMLE rep and he says that it's the medical school that sets the final policy, that their's (USMLE) is merely a suggestion. I should add that on each of my repeat attempts on the test I got progressively closer to passing, so that on my last time taking the exam I missed passing by 1% !

So I guess I need to know what recourse I have? One of my school's deans met with me to discuss my options but they were basically: apply to med schools in Europe, or off-shore. But there has to be some other option other than repeat it all over again. Should I speak to an attorney about this? It's infuriating that I'm being denied what I have strived so long to achieve when, had I chosen my 2nd choice med school (U of Illinois), I would not be in this situation as they have no such graduation policy. My wife graduated Georgetown Med School and they had no policy such as this either.
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contact the ombudsman

maybe you have a undiagnosed learning disability, maybe you are battling depression... maybe.... look into those because if its true and they dismissed you can be discrimination..... I would contact an attorney pronto.. LAWYER UP IMMEDIATELLY.. but.. go to the ombudsman first though. Fight this tooth and nail.. FInd a faculty member to be your advocate too. How were your grades?

I think most people would find this incident appalling and un reasonable despite what any written policy says..
 
anynoise said:
contact the ombudsman

maybe you have a undiagnosed learning disability, maybe you are battling depression... maybe.... look into those because if its true and they dismissed you can be discrimination..... I would contact an attorney pronto.. LAWYER UP IMMEDIATELLY.. but.. go to the ombudsman first though. Fight this tooth and nail.. FInd a faculty member to be your advocate too. How were your grades?

I think most people would find this incident appalling and un reasonable despite what any written policy says..
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I agree with trying to find out why you had such a hard time passing the test. I disagree with the rest. Why is it so unreasonable of a school to say that you need to pass a test to graduate? I'll take it even a step further....most if not all schools ask you if you have any kind of issue that would preclude you from being a physician. Mental disability is no excuse. what are you going to tell your patient after you messed up their prescription? You are going to tell them that you were diagnosed with ADHD so it's ok? Medical school is not like any other schooling and some standards must be different.
 
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plauto said:
I agree with trying to find out why you had such a hard time passing the test. I disagree with the rest. Why is it so unreasonable of a school to say that you need to pass a test to graduate? I'll take it even a step further....most if not all schools ask you if you have any kind of issue that would preclude you from being a physician. Mental disability is no excuse. what are you going to tell your patient after you messed up their prescription? You are going to tell them that you were diagnosed with ADHD so it's ok? Medical school is not like any other schooling and some standards must be different.
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A medical diagnosis or learning disability wouldn't be an "excuse" but more an "explanation" that may permit giving this kid a 4th try at passing Step 2. Serious introspection into why he didn't pass is worthwhile. Scolding the kind won't gain anything.

OP, almost every school requires you to pass Steps 1 and 2 to graduate. I don't know who you talked to at the AMA. I wouldn't "lawyer up" or start taking an overly antagonistic attitude with your program just yet. Try to work with them before trying to work against them. If you run out of options, then I would look at appealing the dean's decision. Don't burn bridges prematurely.

In the meantime, I'd look at transferring. Somewhere on the interwebs (maybe the AAMC website - use the almighty google) there is a list of schools that accept students with advanced standing, and the number of available spots. Be up front with the schools about what happened and what's going on. The rub here is that even if the school will have you, your current will have to approve the transfer (another reason to avoid angering him).

PS, I'm surprised no one has taken the DO bait on this thread.
 
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Shinken said:
I'm no expert when it comes to allopathic schools, but what this contact at the AMA told you seems to me to be 100% incorrect. You might want to double-check this information.

Perhaps the number of tries is different for other schools, but as far as I know pretty much every medical school in the US (MD or DO) requires you to pass Step 1 to participate in clinicals, and most require you to pass Step 2 to graduate. I know of *some* schools that don't require you to pass Step 2 to graduate, but not *most*.

Can you honestly imagine that MOST US medical schools graduate their students without requiring them to pass Steps 1 and 2? Think about it.
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My school required us to pass each within 3 attempts, or we would be dismissed. As mentioned above, some states (like the state my med school was in) would not license someone who failed a board exam 3 times. Their policy seemed fairly reasonable in light of that restriction.

Honestly, I think off shore schools are going to be your best bet. Of course that might limit your licensing prospects even further. Or you could just let it go and pursue something else. Failing CK 3 times suggests that you'd probably have similar difficulty on Step 3 and on board certification exams. You're also going to have a hard time matching as it is. We had someone in my class who was dismissed after failing Step 1 3 times. He's moved on and is doing non-medical work. He appears to be reasonably happy and doing OK. With income-based loan repayments, even if you don't make a physician's salary, you can still make your loan payments.
 
EMT2ER-DOC said:
what makes you think a DO school would accept anyone who failed step 2 three times?
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Nothing makes me think that. The OP has an uphill battle anywhere. I was just surprised that talk of MD/DO equivalency/superiority/redundancy remained civil and didn't erupt into a flame war.

But apparently I spoke too soon.
 
HumbleMD said:
Nothing makes me think that. The OP has an uphill battle anywhere. I was just surprised that talk of MD/DO equivalency/superiority/redundancy remained civil and didn't erupt into a flame war.

But apparently I spoke too soon.
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That is what should happen right? As adults, we should all treat each other's opinions with respect, regardless of what they are. However we also should look to correct any misconceptions, in a adult and respectful manner. I applaud that any flame war has not happened. I wish it would happen more often.

and my question was not meant to start any flame war. I am sorry if it came off that way, a lot of voice inflections are lost in typing. I was just trying to pick your brain regarding your question. No offense intended.
 
lol...sorry to hear, but I can't help but be amused at the rigor of getting admitted nowadays to any U.S. med school, and being dismissed for the very reason one was admitted...academics. Too much of those crazy med school parties I hear about? lol.

I am aware from friends that med school use every method to keep students from dropping out/being dismissed. So if you are about to be one of the latter...perhaps it is for a good reason. Some aren't hacked out for the long haul. There is nothing wrong with that...pick up the pieces and move on.
 
Recently trained osteopathic medical school graduates who have subsequently trained in ACGME-accredited post-doctoral venues are in a unique position to contribute to this dialogue. We have had the opportunity to compare and contrast our pre-doctoral education experiences along side our MD colleagues in residency and fellowship and assess the relative strengths and weaknesses of each respective training pathway.
 
I echo what QofQuimica is saying...appeal and hope the dean is in a good mood. You need a detailed plan and to exhibit humility.

All is not lost man. I personally know someone who was dismissed after failing Step 1 3 times, appealed and pleaded the case to the appeals board, and was given one more attempt which resulted in success. Now she is limited to those states on that website which effectively bars her from practicing in her home state and probably less competitive specialties but she is still in the game.
 
QofQuimica said:
But you need to be willing to accept responsibility for remedying whatever academic deficiencies you have, and you can't walk in there considering yourself entitled to a degree just because you paid for it and think one of the requirements to get it is unfair.
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This. Your attitude screams entitlement.
 
wow! wow!! wow!!! am sorry big brother... But don't even think of taking a lawyer. The school is mad at you right now because you took a chance that someone else would have occupied during the admission process. It seems you make a fool of them telling them they made a big mistake for admitting you. Anyway the only option I have for you is to consider going into another field of study. Medicine is not the only way to make more money or gain prestige in America. Maybe God is planning something different for you, you might not know...Do not give up and do not lose hope,try exploring another career, America is a big land where we have many options to lift it up...Thanks and good luck..
 
Doctor Bagel said:
My school required us to pass each within 3 attempts, or we would be dismissed. As mentioned above, some states (like the state my med school was in) would not license someone who failed a board exam 3 times. Their policy seemed fairly reasonable in light of that restriction.

Honestly, I think off shore schools are going to be your best bet. Of course that might limit your licensing prospects even further. Or you could just let it go and pursue something else. Failing CK 3 times suggests that you'd probably have similar difficulty on Step 3 and on board certification exams. You're also going to have a hard time matching as it is. We had someone in my class who was dismissed after failing Step 1 3 times. He's moved on and is doing non-medical work. He appears to be reasonably happy and doing OK. With income-based loan repayments, even if you don't make a physician's salary, you can still make your loan payments.
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Hi guys. This is the first time I have heard about this rule. I have a question. For the three tries limit, is the rule for each step 2 CS or step 2 CK having three chances allotted for each subsection or three chances to pass for both CS and CK.

For example: I was wondering if you fail step 2 CS twice, and fail step 2 CK once, you are out already?

Thanks. This news is kind of frightening and scary.
 
Moebius said:
Hi guys. This is the first time I have heard about this rule. I have a question. For the three tries limit, is the rule for each step 2 CS or step 2 CK having three chances allotted for each subsection or three chances to pass for both CS and CK.

For example: I was wondering if you fail step 2 CS twice, and fail step 2 CK once, you are out already?

Thanks. This news is kind of frightening and scary.
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You should look at your particular school's handbook but I think it's 3 times each exam. So you would have to fail either Step 1, 2Ck, or 2 CS three times before you get dismissed.
 
Thank goodness! I will check. Thanks! :D
 
Moebius said:
Hi guys. This is the first time I have heard about this rule. I have a question. For the three tries limit, is the rule for each step 2 CS or step 2 CK having three chances allotted for each subsection or three chances to pass for both CS and CK.

For example: I was wondering if you fail step 2 CS twice, and fail step 2 CK once, you are out already?

Thanks. This news is kind of frightening and scary.
Click to expand...
At the OP's school, it's three times per step according to the school handbook, not three times total. And you don't need to be frightened or scared. Most American allo students don't fail any of the steps even once, or at most they might fail a step once and then pass on the second try. The OP's experience is not at all the norm.
 
QofQuimica said:
At the OP's school, it's three times per step according to the school handbook, not three times total. And you don't need to be frightened or scared. Most American allo students don't fail any of the steps even once, or at most they might fail a step once and then pass on the second try. The OP's experience is not at all the norm.
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I think the US allo pass rate on the USMLE is just above 90%. that still translates to over a thousand people who fail each step. Failing 3 times on a single step is less common, which is why the rules the OP faces are less often discussed. I don't see the point of a lawyer here-- your rights were not abridged. They have a policy likely parroting the state licensing requirements and you didn't meet that hurdle. Your options are to figure out how you can pass the test for sure the next time and then 1. Beg for some probationary readmission pending your passage of the test, or 2. Transfer if you can find someplace that overlooks your testing history. Offshore could be your best bet for the latter - I'm sure someone will take your money.
 
chorosz said:
lol...sorry to hear, but I can't help but be amused at the rigor of getting admitted nowadays to any U.S. med school, and being dismissed for the very reason one was admitted...academics. Too much of those crazy med school parties I hear about? lol.

I am aware from friends that med school use every method to keep students from dropping out/being dismissed. So if you are about to be one of the latter...perhaps it is for a good reason. Some aren't hacked out for the long haul. There is nothing wrong with that...pick up the pieces and move on.
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Sorry, I can't bite my tongue at this. As a pre-med, do yourself a favor and shut up and sit down.
 
wannabeOBGYN said:
Are DO students really dismissed if they fail a board exam 3 times? I am a DO student and never heard about this. Then again, I don't know anybody who failed it more than once, so it's not something I've ever thought about.
QUOTE]

Yes, LECOM has this policy. You have to pass everything within 6 years of matriculation and pass all steps by the third time or you are dismissed from the school without a degree. There are many many states that will not license you if you have failed even once let alone multiple times. It just makes life that much harder. There was a resident in my program who took step II for the third time at the end of second residency year. Basically he was told that if he didn't pass the third time he would be dismissed from residency due to the fact that the state we were in would not license him if he failed 3 times. It is a big big deal.
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UNECOM also has a policy of no more than 3 tries per step. I know someone who took 3 tries to pass her step 1 - she was sweating at the third try. I don't know how she did for her step 2 because she was then 2 years behind my class due to her failures.
 
cabinbuilder said:
Yes, LECOM has this policy. You have to pass everything within 6 years of matriculation and pass all steps by the third time or you are dismissed from the school without a degree. There are many many states that will not license you if you have failed even once let alone multiple times. It just makes life that much harder. There was a resident in my program who took step II for the third time at the end of second residency year. Basically he was told that if he didn't pass the third time he would be dismissed from residency due to the fact that the state we were in would not license him if he failed 3 times. It is a big big deal.
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Wow. I can't imagine a 2nd year resident with only Step 1 under their belt.
 
HumbleMD said:
I can't believe it. Don't most schools require step 2 for graduation?
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Yes, the rule changed in 2007-08. There were still some DO schools that didn't require passing of step II for graduation before that time. Now I think all schools require it since there were too many students waiting to take it and then it puts a crunch in residency to do Step II, step III and then boards. Plus when I was in medical school that is when the step II PE was created in 2005 which adds another twist. I graduated in 2006 and you were not required to have passed the PE in order to graduate. I believe that has changed as well.
 
:thumbup:
QofQuimica said:
I think most of us agree that getting your degree shouldn't be contingent on passing the USMLE, but unfortunately, it doesn't matter what we think. It also doesn't matter what most schools require; *your* school requires that you pass CK within three tries. This policy is stated clearly in the USMLE section of the student handbook: any student who fails to pass CK/CS on the third attempt will be dismissed from the med school. I don't see what grounds you think you might have to "force" them to award you a degree when you clearly failed to meet the academic standards they require for graduation. Again, it sucks majorly, especially since you spent four years there and took out all of the loans, but none of that changes the basic fact that you didn't meet the requirements for your degree.

Instead of complaining about how unfair the policy is, you'd be better served by figuring out what your options are and pursuing them. For one, it looks like you have the option of appealing your dismissal to the Dean; have you tried that? Because on the next page of the handbook after the USMLE stuff, they talk about students repeating courses, including their policies on students repeating courses after being dismissed from the med school and then readmitted. So obviously it is possible for a dismissed student to be readmitted in certain circumstances.

I suggest you start by reading through the handbook carefully to make sure you understand all of the policies and procedures to make an appeal to the Dean. You should also introspect about what went wrong. The vast majority of American students pass CK on the first try, or maybe the second try at worst. Why didn't you? (You don't have to post the answer here, but be honest with yourself about identifying what the deficiencies were.) It's safe to assume that you must have passed Step 1, because if you hadn't, the school would have dismissed you after your second year. So what was different this time? If you're going to ask to be readmitted, what is your plan to ensure that you can and will meet the graduation requirements this time around? Will you repeat years 3/4? Take a prep course? If there was some kind of personal issue going on, how will you show that it will no longer interfere with your studies?

I think if you can approach the Dean with an honest assessment of the problem and a realistic plan to overcome your deficiencies, you might have some chance of success. But you need to be willing to accept responsibility for remedying whatever academic deficiencies you have, and you can't walk in there considering yourself entitled to a degree just because you paid for it and think one of the requirements to get it is unfair.
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HumbleMD said:
I can't believe it. Don't most schools require step 2 for graduation?
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Each school's requirement for STEP 2 differs. Some require that you take it, not necessarily pass it before graduation.
 
etudiante04 said:
Each school's requirement for STEP 2 differs. Some require that you take it, not necessarily pass it before graduation.
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Your powers of resurrection are impressive but not god-like. Make notice next time this is a 2 year-old thread.
 
Mr Avante said:
Your powers of resurrection are impressive but not god-like. Make notice next time this is a 2 year-old thread.
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Your powers of observation need some work, too. You're chastising the wrong poster.
 
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