Pod School Student Debt

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VVMed1

VVMed1

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I'm not sure if the question's been asked most recently, but can anyone (current students) give an idea of the average amount of debt a pod student will incur upon completion of the program? For those that rely strictly on loans (federal or private), what figures will you be required to pay back at the end of those 4 years? What are your interest rates?

Tuition (after 4 years) ... ?
Fees (after 4 years) ... ?
Books and materials (after 4 years) ... ?
Housing (on campus/off campus)... ?
Living expenses ... ?
 
VVMed1 said:
I'm not sure if the question's been asked most recently, but can anyone (current students) give an idea of the average amount of debt a pod student will incur upon completion of the program? For those that rely strictly on loans (federal or private), what figures will you be required to pay back at the end of those 4 years? What are your interest rates?

Tuition (after 4 years) ... ?
Fees (after 4 years) ... ?
Books and materials (after 4 years) ... ?
Housing (on campus/off campus)... ?
Living expenses ... ?
Click to expand...

Interest is 7.9% fixed right now through the government. Thats WAY high but it is what it is.

Everything else depends on where you go to school. If you go to Iowa or Ohio you could get by for less than 200K debt. In more expensive cities such as NY, Temple, or the Cali schools you likely would not get out under 200K (without scholarships).

So assume 200K in loans. But this depends on how you want to live in school, scholarships, and family contribution.
 
VVMed1 said:
I'm not sure if the question's been asked most recently, but can anyone (current students) give an idea of the average amount of debt a pod student will incur upon completion of the program? For those that rely strictly on loans (federal or private), what figures will you be required to pay back at the end of those 4 years? What are your interest rates?

Tuition (after 4 years) ... ?
Fees (after 4 years) ... ?
Books and materials (after 4 years) ... ?
Housing (on campus/off campus)... ?
Living expenses ... ?
Click to expand...

How many kidneys do you want to graduate with?
 
I'd say count at 200-250K in debt by the time you finish your four years of school. You're going to accumulate that kind of debt at any type of medical school you go to. If you want to be optimistic about it at least you get 10 years to pay it off. Or as Air Bud pointed out there's always ways around paying that much...
 
ill do 1 kidney, 5oz of sperm, hair and some plasma for 75k.
 
DrGonz said:
You can donate hair for money? I did not know this...... (thinks to self.....rubs head....... :whistle: )
Click to expand...

Yes, to make wigs for Cancer victims. Most just donate as a gesture of good will for this though.
 
Saint419 said:
I'd say count at 200-250K in debt by the time you finish your four years of school. You're going to accumulate that kind of debt at any type of medical school you go to. If you want to be optimistic about it at least you get 10 years to pay it off. Or as Air Bud pointed out there's always ways around paying that much...
Click to expand...


I actually think one of the many perks of podiatry school is that they are cheaper than allopathic schools. Pod schools average around 28K whereas most allopathic programs are between 35 and 40K unless you get into a public school in-state. Out of state tuition and private med school tuition is outrageous, but pod schools don't discriminate on location b/c there are so few of them. I find that to be an awesome perk.
 
Xforward22 said:
I actually think one of the many perks of podiatry school is that they are cheaper than allopathic schools. Pod schools average around 28K whereas most allopathic programs are between 35 and 40K unless you get into a public school in-state. Out of state tuition and private med school tuition is outrageous, but pod schools don't discriminate on location b/c there are so few of them. I find that to be an awesome perk.
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That's what I thought. $25,000 - $35,000 per year is a big difference compared to paying roughly $40,000 - $60,000. Heck, my undergrad degree from a private school in Florida was app. $31,000 per year. I'm guessing if you factor in living expenses depending on the city in which you school (or live) makes the difference as well...
 
Living expenses are a big deal. DMU is incredibly cheap. Food is literally free. If you didn't accidently hit it, you can try and intentionally run it over. If not, get out the old 12 gauge and go look for food. There are more deer than people in Iowa. I could survive a month with a half tank of gas, a cow (goat if necessary), a case of shells, a few inches of rain and a giant cauldron. And we haven't even touched the great loincloths available for use.

Edit: And a few pinches of salt. Gets the rubber/metallic taste out of your mouth
 
air bud said:
Living expenses are a big deal. DMU is incredibly cheap. Food is literally free. If you didn't accidently hit it, you can try and intentionally run it over. If not, get out the old 12 gauge and go look for food. There are more deer than people in Iowa. I could survive a month with a half tank of gas, a cow (goat if necessary), a case of shells, a few inches of rain and a giant cauldron. And we haven't even touched the great loincloths available for use.

Edit: And a few pinches of salt. Gets the rubber/metallic taste out of your mouth
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HA HA, that's rich. Although I'd prefer the old hunting rifle to the 12 gauge. Less buckshot to worry about ruining my gold teeth.
 
Pigeons? Not enough meat and not worth the risk of cryptococcus. On the plus side I guess you could just use a travel iron to cook them.
 
Xforward22 said:
I actually think one of the many perks of podiatry school is that they are cheaper than allopathic schools. Pod schools average around 28K whereas most allopathic programs are between 35 and 40K unless you get into a public school in-state. Out of state tuition and private med school tuition is outrageous, but pod schools don't discriminate on location b/c there are so few of them. I find that to be an awesome perk.
Click to expand...


Podiatry schools are much cheaper than allopathic medical schools. MDs will graduate with upwards of 300k in debt. You can't just look at the tuition and and expect to make an educated guess at how much debt you'll graduate with. There's tuition, housing (+ bills), gas, books, groceries, recreational expenses (which you will have if you plan on keeping your sanity),etc. Though as Air Bud again points out you might be able to cut back on some of these... I'm sticking with my original statement of 200-250K.
 
But is 200k warranted given the salaries you hear about on here? 200k debt for 100k out of residency or sometimes even less?
 
Remember you get 10 years to pay that off (I'm not sure how strict they are about that either). And that is extremely rare that somebody will be making 100K or less. Of the DPMs that I know/shadowed, not one of them made under 200K. All you need to look at (I believe there was another thread on it) is how low the default rate is for paying off student loans and that should tell you that as long as you're doing the right things you should be able to pay them off pretty easily.
 
Ankle Breaker said:
200K is a little steep. I think most schools would cost you anywhere from 150-200. Somewhere in between there. To be honest, the tuition at scholl is just over 30K and housing costs me another 7k. We only pay electric here and thats runs me about $20 per bill since we barely use it. My other expenses are just for food. Gas is really a non-expense since I never really need to drive anywhere except to the grocery store. I'm pretty sure you would see similar scenarios at DMU, Arizona, and OCPM (schools in the middle of nowhere). So those are 4 schools where the cost of living and overall expenses would not be that expensive. Also you need to consider that podiatry schools throw a lot of scholarship money at students. This almost never happens to MD/DO matriculants. So that offsets the total cost of your education a little bit.

But getting back to your question. Pursuing podiatry is def worth it if you do well in school and land yourself a quality residency program. Good residency = good training = better probability of not being limited when you do the job search. Nothing is set in stone if you land a great residency program but it def doesnt hurt. You also need to be an effective communicator, ethical, and having strong business skills would not hurt either. Basically you have to be a good overall person who happens to have amazing foot and ankle skills to hit the jackpot in this profession. Its the ones who don't work hard in school and then don't land a decent residency that end up getting the short end of the stick (from what I've read and heard). This is all hearsay though...

Just work your ass off.
Click to expand...

Clearly you are single with no kids. I would venture to guess that Pod schools have a considerably higher percentage of married students, with/without kids, compared to MD/DO schools. 1/3 of my class is mormon, 1 or 2 kids. I don't think your numbers work.
 
air bud said:
Clearly you are single with no kids. I would venture to guess that Pod schools have a considerably higher percentage of married students, with/without kids, compared to MD/DO schools. 1/3 of my class is mormon, 1 or 2 kids. I don't think your numbers work.
Click to expand...

They definitely don't for students with families. All the married with children students will be in the 300+ range. We have some students with 4 kids, some have mortgages payments. Kids are expensive (preschool, sports, piano, clothes, toys, food).

I know one student in particular that estimates he will be at 400k when all said and done. I know I will be looking at 300+, the only upside for me is that my loans are at 2.25%!!
 
So friending me didn't mean anything?

I would put average debt just shy of $200k

For every person with $300k there is someone like me who will be at $110-120k tops. I'm telling you guys, find someone to pay your bills...it'll be worth it in the end
 
darazon said:
They definitely don't for students with families. All the married with children students will be in the 300+ range. We have some students with 4 kids, some have mortgages payments. Kids are expensive (preschool, sports, piano, clothes, toys, food).

I know one student in particular that estimates he will be at 400k when all said and done. I know I will be looking at 300+, the only upside for me is that my loans are at 2.25%!!
Click to expand...

who did you have to sleep with to get that one?
 
darazon said:
They definitely don't for students with families. All the married with children students will be in the 300+ range. We have some students with 4 kids, some have mortgages payments. Kids are expensive (preschool, sports, piano, clothes, toys, food).

I know one student in particular that estimates he will be at 400k when all said and done. I know I will be looking at 300+, the only upside for me is that my loans are at 2.25%!!
Click to expand...

I will just say being in 400K in debt to obtain a DPM degree will certainly make for some interesting times. Those kind of numbers shed new light on the threads regarding the potential salaries/ employment opportunities, and residency shortages. We are talking borrowing 100,000/year. Just hard for me to see how that is possible. Married perhaps but to borrow to support a family (with no other income) and pay tuition without a plan to augment income or obtain scholarships requires true commitment and a hard look at your long term financial obligations. 2.25% or not the monthly pay our for student debt will be huge!

$400,000 at 2.25% for 10 years equals 447,000 or 44,700/yr.
for 20 years: 497,040 or 24,852/yr.
for 25 years: 523,200 or 20,928/yr.
 
Xforward22 said:
I actually think one of the many perks of podiatry school is that they are cheaper than allopathic schools. Pod schools average around 28K whereas most allopathic programs are between 35 and 40K unless you get into a public school in-state. Out of state tuition and private med school tuition is outrageous, but pod schools don't discriminate on location b/c there are so few of them. I find that to be an awesome perk.
Click to expand...


Yeah, BUT!!!

There are alot more options in MD/DO.

1. Though many schools are expensive, there are state schools that are way cheaper than POD schools.

2. Most MD/DO will have a higher salary and earn more over their life time. (I said most, because there are FP and such that are on par with POD)

3. There are a lot more outside scholarships and loan repayment plans out there. Scholarships meaning HPSP and the Health Service ones. Loan repayment in the military, health service, indian reserve. Yeah, Pod have some of those, but they are not equal ( no sign on bonus, not enough spots, not enough funding etc)

4. A lot more jobs to choose from in the MD/DO field. Some jobs even pay more as a MD/DO than a POD .Example: Military MD/DO have more bargianing power since they have their own corp and also have sign on bonuses, contract bonuses blah blah blah

So yes MD schools are more expensive overall, however over the long haul, I think an MD will make more than a POD, or at least have an easier time making the same amount as a POD
 
doc1107 said:
Yeah, BUT!!!


2. Most MD/DO will have a higher salary and earn more over their life time. (I said most, because there are FP and such that are on par with POD)
Click to expand...

I think statistically, most MDs are FP/Internists/Pediatricians rather than specialists. I could be wrong.
 
Saint419 said:
I'd say count at 200-250K in debt by the time you finish your four years of school. You're going to accumulate that kind of debt at any type of medical school you go to. If you want to be optimistic about it at least you get 10 years to pay it off. Or as Air Bud pointed out there's always ways around paying that much...
Click to expand...


Do people actually take 10 years to pay off the loans?

I have been out of school for about 4 years ( this includes residency where I was making change) and I am completely out of debt.

I incurred 210K and used about 10 K of my own savings.

I think the trick is to be frugal. Don't think, oh i a in POD school, once I get out i can repay everything. I basically lived like I did as an Undergrad.

Living-Studio apartment

Food- from Walmart or other discount grocery stores, farmers markets, Chinatown but I ate pretty well, no ramen expect late at night after drinking too much! :laugh:

transport- subway or my dad's hand me down beat up 12 year old Toyota

Clothing-the Mall? heck no, more like Marshalls, TJ Max, Ebay, Before pod school, I threw out most of my high school and undergrad clothing and spent like 500 for a complete new wardrobe. How???

I'll let you on a little secret. If you live in any big city with a Chinatown, Vietnam town, etc. Go there and find a tailor. They will do custom made suit for... $80!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes cheaper if you order more than one. They fit like a glove and to be honest, all the big name 400-800 suits are made in Asia anyways, the only thing American italian, etc on them is the freaking label.

Bought 20 dress shirts- some from ebay, some from online overseas from Asia, and some from TJ max on sale. Out of those 20, I have some good brands like Kennith cole, Perry Elise from TJ max on after xmas sale for.. $5 a shirt. Yeah.

pants, shoes etc-all from online or on sale from outlet stores.

I was out of debt my second year of being a POD (after residency). Then I splurged and bought a...... Kia Soul lol with leather seats!

Residency year one- earned about 40K, used 10 K for living expensives and rent. Paid 30K off

year 2- earned 45K, used 10K again for living, 2 K to fix my car. paid 33K off

Loan after residency + interest was about 150K.

first year associate Pod- salary was 80K, bonus-20 K, totaly 100K
used 10K for living expenses, paid off 90 K

Amount owned- ~64K


2nd year associate- different job, working for a friend's dad. Salary was 90K, bonus was only 5 K (this was due to me getting married and a extended honeymoon/vacation.
used about 30K for expenses ( wedding, honeymoon, travel, stupid rock called a Diamond 😎)

Paid off 60K and my wife paid off the rest which was around 4 K 😍.

I am not bashing anyone, just thought I would give an real life example of how a recent POD paid off their loans! I know I was lucky to be family free during those years so no family related expenses and I had a supportive parents who gave or loan me a few K's here and there when I needed it.

It is all a mentality thing! PAY OFF THOSE DEBTS! Look, interest is basically free money you are giving away. PAY THEM OFF!
 
Kidsfeet said:
I think statistically, most MDs are FP/Internists/Pediatricians rather than specialists. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...


no you are right, but even within those fields there is a tons of further career decisions that can allow them to make more money.

My friends dad is a FP, but he did a fellowship in Sleep Med. He is a full time FP, but does consults and readings for a sleep center near by. Makes enough to have a vaction home in Miami beach and own 3500 square feet house/mini-mansion.

As a Internist, there are tons of subspecialites. You can do one in Cardiology (300K) etc


I don't think there is as much further opportunities for POD? I know you can be diabetic limb and wound care fellowship and sports med. But does that translate to a substantial jump in salary?
 
doc1107 said:
Do people actually take 10 years to pay off the loans?

I have been out of school for about 4 years ( this includes residency where I was making change) and I am completely out of debt.

I incurred 210K and used about 10 K of my own savings.

I think the trick is to be frugal. Don't think, oh i a in POD school, once I get out i can repay everything. I basically lived like I did as an Undergrad.

Living-Studio apartment

Food- from Walmart or other discount grocery stores, farmers markets, Chinatown but I ate pretty well, no ramen expect late at night after drinking too much! :laugh:

transport- subway or my dad's hand me down beat up 12 year old Toyota

Clothing-the Mall? heck no, more like Marshalls, TJ Max, Ebay, Before pod school, I threw out most of my high school and undergrad clothing and spent like 500 for a complete new wardrobe. How???

I'll let you on a little secret. If you live in any big city with a Chinatown, Vietnam town, etc. Go there and find a tailor. They will do custom made suit for... $80!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes cheaper if you order more than one. They fit like a glove and to be honest, all the big name 400-800 suits are made in Asia anyways, the only thing American italian, etc on them is the freaking label.

Bought 20 dress shirts- some from ebay, some from online overseas from Asia, and some from TJ max on sale. Out of those 20, I have some good brands like Kennith cole, Perry Elise from TJ max on after xmas sale for.. $5 a shirt. Yeah.

pants, shoes etc-all from online or on sale from outlet stores.

I was out of debt my second year of being a POD (after residency). Then I splurged and bought a...... Kia Soul lol with leather seats!

Residency year one- earned about 40K, used 10 K for living expensives and rent. Paid 30K off

year 2- earned 45K, used 10K again for living, 2 K to fix my car. paid 33K off

Loan after residency + interest was about 150K.

first year associate Pod- salary was 80K, bonus-20 K, totaly 100K
used 10K for living expenses, paid off 90 K

Amount owned- ~64K


2nd year associate- different job, working for a friend's dad. Salary was 90K, bonus was only 5 K (this was due to me getting married and a extended honeymoon/vacation.
used about 30K for expenses ( wedding, honeymoon, travel, stupid rock called a Diamond 😎)

Paid off 60K and my wife paid off the rest which was around 4 K 😍.

I am not bashing anyone, just thought I would give an real life example of how a recent POD paid off their loans! I know I was lucky to be family free during those years so no family related expenses and I had a supportive parents who gave or loan me a few K's here and there when I needed it.

It is all a mentality thing! PAY OFF THOSE DEBTS! Look, interest is basically free money you are giving away. PAY THEM OFF!
Click to expand...
Great advice. Live like you have NO money (because really, you have none) until your loans are paid off. Then start to enjoy life. doc1107, I like your approach to life/finances. Want to start a practice with me in about 5 years? 😉
 
doc1107 said:
Do people actually take 10 years to pay off the loans?

I have been out of school for about 4 years ( this includes residency where I was making change) and I am completely out of debt.

I incurred 210K and used about 10 K of my own savings.

I think the trick is to be frugal...

...It is all a mentality thing! PAY OFF THOSE DEBTS! Look, interest is basically free money you are giving away. PAY THEM OFF!
Click to expand...
^^This is the key in pretty much any specialty. 👍👍

Yeah, the debt is intimidating, but your income will be plenty to repay it. In reality, if you can just keep living standards on your ~$40k residency salary, then you should be able to pay off your debt in 5yrs or less:

Even assuming $120k/yr associate job total gross salary incl all incentive + benefits (and if you're not making that, break free of your NYC nail crack factory or inner city MedicAid wound care associate slavery). That means ~35k taxes, so $85k net minus $40k to live... so $45k per year for loans pays off the $200k in 5yrs (and builds your credit rating for paying off debt faster than required and not missing payments). In reality, unless you really sell yourself short, you'll make a lot more than $120k/yr gross - esp after you've built up a pt and referral base for the first couple years.

The main key is just not overspending during those first few years in practice. A lot of residents view completion of residency as "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" and promptly take out a fat mortgage on a 5br 2000sq ft house, or buy a Caddy/Porche, wear only designer blouses or 3 piece suits, develop a taste for fine food and wine, etc. Why do you really need those things? Because your Cavalier or S10 is not a "doctor's car" and "no doctor eats at Subway" and "no doctor shops at Target"? Well, that's up to you... debt is the most insidious form of slavery. Yes, there's "good" and "bad" debt... taking out more loans to buy into partnership or invest in your business might be good, but self/family indulgent luxury "nothing to show for it" purchases when you're not out of debt are obviously always gonna prolong your student debt and compound more interest.

I honestly think financial fear is why so many young pods end up so miserable working for low salaries: they have trouble living within their means and are afraid to not have a high base salary and secure income to make loan payments and live at least a bit better than they did during school/residency. It seems nobody wants to even entertain a base salary under $80k since "my loan payments alone are gonna be $2k per month!" Whether the incentive bonus kicks in at 2x base vs 3x base and whether the incentive is 25% vs 35% or the partnership buy-in is $100k vs 250k or whether the practice is trustworthy vs shady has barely any consequence. Who wants to pay a lawyer $1k to review the contract and make more debt for themself... as long as it looks like it'll pay off the loans and I get to do some surgery, where can I sign? It's all about short term necessity, and to each their own I guess.
 
Last edited:
zloetakoe said:
Great advice. Live like you have NO money (because really, you have none) until your loans are paid off. Then start to enjoy life. doc1107, I like your approach to life/finances. Want to start a practice with me in about 5 years? 😉
Click to expand...


Great advice from these posters. I did the same and paid off my student loans in 5 years. I lived very modestly. I have friends who lived the life and are still in student loan debt.
 
Its nice to say that you should pay off your debts as fast as you can, but one must also realize this is probably a situation of single individual without family obligations and whose spouse has no student debt either.

I agree they should be payed off quickly, but some people have other factors to deal with and they simply can't put $80K of their $90K net income into paying off their student debt the first few years.

Living frugally with 2-3 kids and an educated spouse who works is not easy even with a $50K a year net income (after paying off monthly student debts, taxes...etc)

The other issue too is where your investments lie. Let's say you have student debt at 2.25% but you can afford to put money away in a long term mutual funds type investment that has returned 7.75% over the lifetime of the investment (10-15 year term). I know the market is in the toilet right now, but wouldn't you rather put that extra 5.5% in your pocket over that time instead of paying off your debt quickly. This is of course assuming your interest rates are favorable. Also, if you're dumping off all your income into paying off your debt, you may be holding off buying a home, which is also a huge tax incentive. There is only so much you can tax deduct from the interest your paying off on your student loan (which is based on your gross income), but can tax deduct 100% of the interest you're paying on your mortgage. There is a way to calculate all of this, and you may actually lose money by paying off your student quickly if you're smart about where your money is going.

I certainly agree that if you're dumping all your cash into frivolous purchases instead of being wise with your money, you lose no matter what.
 
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Kidsfeet said:
Its nice to say that you should pay off your debts as fast as you can, but one must also realize this is probably a situation of single individual without family obligations and whose spouse has no student debt either.

I agree they should be payed off quickly, but some people have other factors to deal with and they simply can't put $80K of their $90K net income into paying off their student debt the first few years.

Living frugally with 2-3 kids and an educated spouse who works is not easy even with a $50K a year net income (after paying off monthly student debts, taxes...etc)

The other issue too is where your investments lie. Let's say you have student debt at 2.25% but you can afford to put money away in a long term mutual funds type investment that has returned 7.75% over the lifetime of the investment (10-15 year term). I know the market is in the toilet right now, but wouldn't you rather put that extra 5.5% in your pocket over that time instead of paying off your debt quickly. This is of course assuming your interest rates are favorable. Also, if you're dumping off all your income into paying off your debt, you may be holding off buying a home, which is also a huge tax incentive. There is only so much you can tax deduct from the interest your paying off on your student loan (which is based on your gross income), but can tax deduct 100% of the interest you're paying on your mortgage. There is a way to calculate all of this, and you may actually lose money by paying off your student quickly if you're smart about where your money is going.

I certainly agree that if you're dumping all your cash into frivolous purchases instead of being wise with your money, you lose no matter what.
Click to expand...

Student loans are at 6.8%-7.9% right now. Putting it off is not the way to go anymore.
 
janV88 said:
Student loans are at 6.8%-7.9% right now. Putting it off is not the way to go anymore.
Click to expand...

It was a no brainer for me. Interest was not tax deductible and I was a child of the 12-16% HEAL loans. Small rental house and MAC and Cheese made sense. HEAL loans in my generation could not be taken out with any other loan. The max I could borrow from the state was $5,000 dollars so it was all HEAL. HEAL accrued interest from day one. My first year HEAL loan had doubled by the end of residency. Tuition was lower then but between the HEAL loan interest rates and my business loan at prime plus 2 I paid back several hundred thousand dollars. My high school friend who owned a shot and beer bar with no education made had more money than I did after expenses.

But sucking it up for 5 years and being business and student loan debt free was liberating and provided flexibility in my practice options. Everyone has a different situation but take control of your debt and attack it as much as you can. A state park vacation vs. a cruise in the early years makes more sense sometimes.
 
darazon said:
So, no taxes during residency???
Click to expand...

There was tax, but I did my 1099 as perfect as I could and paid the tax throughout each paycheck. Also I had a couple tax credits that I was able to get
 
darazon said:
lol....Canadian loans = better interest rate.
Click to expand...

Mine weren't. Interest started accruing the day the loans were taken out. Then in my fourth year, Quebec decided they weren't going to help out anymore and I had to take out private loans from an international group. The interest was terrible and again, interest starting accruing immediately.
 
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