"Podiatrist" vs "Podiatric Surgeon"

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spo01

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is there a difference in terminology? for example, the pod i shadowed refered to himself as a "podiatric surgeon" because he pretty much only does surgeries at the hospital and doesnt spend much time at the office. on the other hand, there is another local podiatrist who does no surgeries and just works ~30-40 hrs a week at her office, so, the term podiatrist seems appropriate with her.

it's like when if you ask a brain surgeon his job he'll usually say "i'm a surgeon" as opposed to 'i'm a doctor'. it's all a matter of which sounds more prestigeous i realize. but is it 'politically correct' to say 'podiatric surgeon'? i don't see why not, i mean i do see there is a fine line b/w 'podiatry school' vs 'medical school' but what about the job titles? jw....

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is there a difference in terminology? for example, the pod i shadowed refered to himself as a "podiatric surgeon" because he pretty much only does surgeries at the hospital and doesnt spend much time at the office. on the other hand, there is another local podiatrist who does no surgeries and just works ~30-40 hrs a week at her office, so, the term podiatrist seems appropriate with her.

it's like when if you ask a brain surgeon his job he'll usually say "i'm a surgeon" as opposed to 'i'm a doctor'. it's all a matter of which sounds more prestigeous i realize. but is it 'politically correct' to say 'podiatric surgeon'? i don't see why not, i mean i do see there is a fine line b/w 'podiatry school' vs 'medical school' but what about the job titles? jw....

I think there is a difference but mostly due to training and the old way of residencies being surgical and non-surgical. This is why there is still ACFAS/ABPS (surgical college and boards) and ACFAOM/ABPOPPS (orthopedics and medicine college and boards).

When you become a podiatrist you'll have to decide that you feel comfortable with. When you tell people what you do, it will be up to you to decide what best describes you.

There is a reason that physicians and surgeons are separate titles but it is about ancient medicine and not current teaching. Surgeons have not always trained the same as physicians.
 
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I think there is a difference but mostly due to training and the old way of residencies being surgical and non-surgical. This is why there is still ACFAS/ABPS (surgical college and boards) and ACFAOM/ABPOPPS (orthopedics and medicine college and boards).

When you become a podiatrist you'll have to decide that you feel comfortable with. When you tell people what you do, it will be up to you to decide what best describes you.

There is a reason that physicians and surgeons are separate titles but it is about ancient medicine and not current teaching. Surgeons have not always trained the same as physicians.


thanks for the reply. i just feel the term 'podiatric surgeon' and 'podiatrist' have different impacts when heard. it's not incorrect to say the former and it shouldnt matter, right? but, for instance, if someone said 'i'm a podiatriac surgeon' an average person would probably think that person was an MD with a surgical residency in the lower extremity. ofcourse this is ignorance on their part. i just didnt know if it was correct to say it or if it was a widely term used in hospitals.
not to start any flame wars (even though i think most will agree with me) i do not think it is correct for a pod student to say 'i'm at medical school' vs 'i'm at podiatry school'. this convo kinda falls somewhere along those lines but the original topic makes more sense IMO
 
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There's a (probably locked) threads on this if you search a bit...

Just try searching for "Northerner" in the pod forums :D
 
There's a (probably locked) threads on this if you search a bit...

Just try searching for "Northerner" in the pod forums :D

Very clever, smart***.

As it happens, I think it's accurate and acceptable to say "podiatric surgeon" if you perform surgeries.
 
I'm commenting on a thread that hasn't had any activity in 4 years, and I'm interested to hear people's current perspectives given the whole Vision 2015 in which every residency will be a 3 to 4 year SURGICAL residency.

Do we see the title of "podiatrist" shifting more and more to "podiatric surgeon?" I think if those of us entering the field now in the beginning of this Vision 2015 era refer to our profession and job titles as such, it might naturally bring more attention to our specialty and separate us from the stigma that podiatrists clip nails and smooth out corns and calluses all day.

Then again, our scope is NOT just limited to surgery so we don't want to limit our referrals, but you have to admit that "podiatric surgeon" sounds more prestigious and may be quite fitting now that podiatry is clearly more advanced (and surgical) than it was 20 years ago.

Any thoughts?
 
I'm commenting on a thread that hasn't had any activity in 4 years, and I'm interested to hear people's current perspectives given the whole Vision 2015 in which every residency will be a 3 to 4 year SURGICAL residency.

Do we see the title of "podiatrist" shifting more and more to "podiatric surgeon?" I think if those of us entering the field now in the beginning of this Vision 2015 era refer to our profession and job titles as such, it might naturally bring more attention to our specialty and separate us from the stigma that podiatrists clip nails and smooth out corns and calluses all day.

Then again, our scope is NOT just limited to surgery so we don't want to limit our referrals, but you have to admit that "podiatric surgeon" sounds more prestigious and may be quite fitting now that podiatry is clearly more advanced (and surgical) than it was 20 years ago.

Any thoughts?

I agree that podiatric surgeon is a more polished term than podiatrist. My personal pet peeve is "Foot and Ankle Surgeon." I think it is more important to use the term podiatric surgeon and improve the understanding than to say "Foot and Ankle Surgeon."

One thing that I will tell everyone is you cannot educate everyone. I hear comments on a regular basis. I just re-certified for ACLS and the trainer made a comment about cutting nails and you don't need this. I kindly informed her that the hospital likes me to help if something is dying on the operating table during an ankle fracture. Most of the people that make these comments are nurses and ancillary medical personnel not physicians. That being said the importance of training with other physicians is to educate them on our knowledge and level of training. That is more important that a piece of paper like Vision 2015. If the CPME and APMA wanted to help the profession, force all schools to integrate and get more high quality residencies in universities. In other words, schools and programs that tell you about their "independence" it is not a positive thing for our profession. And these overnight expansions and residencies will only hurt us.

Finally, I would like to see all residencies go to a four year format. That is the current minimum for MD/DO surgeons. Also the four year programs (OB-GYN and opthalmology) are much more similar in design to podiatry. They tend to by less cut-em cattle calls. There are annual visits and more of an office/OR mixture like podiatry.
 
This is a good point that was brought up. I have 2 follow up questions. First, How exactly are DPM's looked at in the healthcare field? What kind of respect (I realize that respect is EARNED...but thats another topic) does a DPM typically receive from MDs? DOs? nurses? patients? other healthcare providers? I realize that podiatrists have a very important role in medicine and that the traiing recieved reflects the hard work and commitment students put in. That brings me to my second question: How is it that the "stigma" of podiatrists "cutting nails" came to be? Especially in todays world with the advancements made in the field in addition to training side by side with MD/DO, one would assume that the stigma should start to fade.



I agree that podiatric surgeon is a more polished term than podiatrist. My personal pet peeve is "Foot and Ankle Surgeon." I think it is more important to use the term podiatric surgeon and improve the understanding than to say "Foot and Ankle Surgeon."

One thing that I will tell everyone is you cannot educate everyone. I hear comments on a regular basis. I just re-certified for ACLS and the trainer made a comment about cutting nails and you don't need this. I kindly informed her that the hospital likes me to help if something is dying on the operating table during an ankle fracture. Most of the people that make these comments are nurses and ancillary medical personnel not physicians. That being said the importance of training with other physicians is to educate them on our knowledge and level of training. That is more important that a piece of paper like Vision 2015. If the CPME and APMA wanted to help the profession, force all schools to integrate and get more high quality residencies in universities. In other words, schools and programs that tell you about their "independence" it is not a positive thing for our profession. And these overnight expansions and residencies will only hurt us.

Finally, I would like to see all residencies go to a four year format. That is the current minimum for MD/DO surgeons. Also the four year programs (OB-GYN and opthalmology) are much more similar in design to podiatry. They tend to by less cut-em cattle calls. There are annual visits and more of an office/OR mixture like podiatry.
 
I personally don't believe it matters what you call yourself or what other's call you. It will ultimately be your skills and actions that build your reputation, and the reputation of the profession, regardless of any name or title.

One of the most talented surgical DPM's I know always introduces himself as a podiatrist....ALWAYS. He performs some of the best surgery I've ever seen and some of the most complex surgeries, and rarely if ever gets involved with anything other than surgery. I know another DPM who always tells people he's a "foot and ankle surgeon" or "foot and ankle specialist", yet I believe the most complex case he may be capable of is a hammertoe repair, which he may do with the assistance of a resident. If he's in the O.R. once every six weeks it's a lot. He does mostly palliative care (and there is nothing wrong with that), but has horrible ethics and horrible skills, even with routine care.

Therefore, it's really not important what you call yourself, it's your skills and actions that really count. The names, letters after your name, etc., are all "fluff" and are meaningless if you don't back it up.
 
I personally don't believe it matters what you call yourself or what other's call you. It will ultimately be your skills and actions that build your reputation, and the reputation of the profession, regardless of any name or title.

One of the most talented surgical DPM's I know always introduces himself as a podiatrist....ALWAYS. He performs some of the best surgery I've ever seen and some of the most complex surgeries, and rarely if ever gets involved with anything other than surgery. I know another DPM who always tells people he's a "foot and ankle surgeon" or "foot and ankle specialist", yet I believe the most complex case he may be capable of is a hammertoe repair, which he may do with the assistance of a resident. If he's in the O.R. once every six weeks it's a lot. He does mostly palliative care (and there is nothing wrong with that), but has horrible ethics and horrible skills, even with routine care.

Therefore, it's really not important what you call yourself, it's your skills and actions that really count. The names, letters after your name, etc., are all "fluff" and are meaningless if you don't back it up.

Recently, I've had a couple people ask what type of doctor I am. I told them that I'm a podiatrist and the next question was, "Are you surgical"? It would seem that the public is becoming educated.
 
Recently, I've had a couple people ask what type of doctor I am. I told them that I'm a podiatrist and the next question was, "Are you surgical"? It would seem that the public is becoming educated.


When I was younger and more concerned with trying to impress someone, a lady asked what type of doctor I am, and I told her "I'm a podiatric surgeon". Then she asked me if I enjoyed working with children.

That's when I realized a lot of people were clueless regarding the word podiatric (vs pediatric) and it didn't matter what I called myself, the work I did was all that mattered and the reputation I developed was the most important.

Almost everyone knows what a podiatrist is, and if they think all I do is cut nails, I'll be happy to educate them at the appropriate time.
 
thanks for the reply. i just feel the term 'podiatric surgeon' and 'podiatrist' have different impacts when heard. it's not incorrect to say the former and it shouldnt matter, right? but, for instance, if someone said 'i'm a podiatriac surgeon' an average person would probably think that person was an MD with a surgical residency in the lower extremity. ofcourse this is ignorance on their part. i just didnt know if it was correct to say it or if it was a widely term used in hospitals.
not to start any flame wars (even though i think most will agree with me) i do not think it is correct for a pod student to say 'i'm at medical school' vs 'i'm at podiatry school'. this convo kinda falls somewhere along those lines but the original topic makes more sense IMO[/QUOT

Take a hard look at Western pod's curriculum vs the med student curriculum. It is the same minus like 2 classes. Even the rotations are with the med students. Why would these students not say they were in med school? Who cares ultimately but you shoud look.
 
I personally don't believe it matters what you call yourself or what other's call you. It will ultimately be your skills and actions that build your reputation, and the reputation of the profession, regardless of any name or title.

One of the most talented surgical DPM's I know always introduces himself as a podiatrist....ALWAYS. He performs some of the best surgery I've ever seen and some of the most complex surgeries, and rarely if ever gets involved with anything other than surgery. I know another DPM who always tells people he's a "foot and ankle surgeon" or "foot and ankle specialist", yet I believe the most complex case he may be capable of is a hammertoe repair, which he may do with the assistance of a resident. If he's in the O.R. once every six weeks it's a lot. He does mostly palliative care (and there is nothing wrong with that), but has horrible ethics and horrible skills, even with routine care.

Therefore, it's really not important what you call yourself, it's your skills and actions that really count. The names, letters after your name, etc., are all "fluff" and are meaningless if you don't back it up.

This post is great b/c it highlights the 2 extremes ... the super modest vs. the overly-conceited. Some of the best doctors I have seen regardless of specialties won't even introduce themselves as "Dr. so and so" but instead refer to the themselves by their first name only.

I think our case is different though because we as podiatrists are still in the uphill battle of reaching parity with MDs. New age podiatrists--those coming out of the Vision 2015 era--should be concerned with our title not out of selfish reasons like trying to impress the opposite sex at a bar, but b/c it may be good for business. We can only sit down with so many people and list all the procedures podiatrists do, but if everyone started referring to themselves as podiatric surgeons, I think we might see a natural pick up in the speed at which this parity is achieved.

I know that some podiatrists do very little (if any) surgery, but the new age podiatrists will now ALL graduate as surgeons from a 3 or 4 year surgical residency. Orthopedic surgeons do other things besides operate, but you don't hear too many of them calling themselves "orthopods." That sounds geeky.

Now I agree with not calling ourselves "foot and ankle surgeons" so here is the breakdown as I see it:

Podiatrist: a weak title fit for those who may be stuck in the past
Podiatric surgeon: a strong and accurate title
Foot and ankle surgeon: a title fit for insecure individuals who used podiatry as a backup to medical school
Physician specializing in foot and ankle surgery: An embarrassing title reserved for only the most conceited podiatric surgeons who not only used podiatry school as a backup but also run pseduo-successful practices

So I think names and titles do matter, and we should start giving ourselves more credit in our day to day activity by embracing podiatric surgeon as our title.
 
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I personally don't believe it matters what you call yourself or what other's call you. It will ultimately be your skills and actions that build your reputation, and the reputation of the profession, regardless of any name or title.

One of the most talented surgical DPM's I know always introduces himself as a podiatrist....ALWAYS. He performs some of the best surgery I've ever seen and some of the most complex surgeries, and rarely if ever gets involved with anything other than surgery. I know another DPM who always tells people he's a "foot and ankle surgeon" or "foot and ankle specialist", yet I believe the most complex case he may be capable of is a hammertoe repair, which he may do with the assistance of a resident. If he's in the O.R. once every six weeks it's a lot. He does mostly palliative care (and there is nothing wrong with that), but has horrible ethics and horrible skills, even with routine care.

Therefore, it's really not important what you call yourself, it's your skills and actions that really count. The names, letters after your name, etc., are all "fluff" and are meaningless if you don't back it up.

This.

I'm a Podiatrist who also performs surgery. Mentioning that I do "foot and ankle" or "podiatric" surgery is beyond redundant to me. I'm a Podiatrist. Funny enough, I recently applied to a new hospital and was asked if I perform abortions. I immediately said that that was not the body part I was trained to perform anything on. I reminded the polite lady on the phone what body part a Podiatrist is license to perform work on.

The only time I mention "foot and ankle" is if people say "Oh, you work with kids?" At which point I do say that I meant "foot and ankle" doctor and that even though my specialty is "foot and ankle", that does include working with the pediatric population, which I consider my "sub" specialty within our specialty (if that makes any sense).
 
I've already commented on how I feel. I don't think it really matters what you call yourself, it's your actions that will ultimately matter. If you are insecure, call yourself a podiatric surgeon, but I can assure you that the majority of you will not be peforming surgery 40 hours a week despite the best training. We do a LOT of other great things in addition to surgery on a daily basis, and I'm excluding palliative care.

If you are treating fractures non surgically which we all do at times, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating wounds without surgical intervention, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating heel pain conservatively, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating injuries, are you a podiatric surgeon? Yes, I know, surgeons don't treat EVERYTHING surgically, but I think you get my point. As Kidsfeet stated, I'm a DPM who performs surgery.

And as per a prior post, when I introduce myself, I rarely if EVER use the "doctor" thing. In the office I NEVER introduce myself as doctor. I walk into the treatment room and introduce myself to new patients by shaking his/her hand and saying "Hi, I'm Holden McGroin, nice to meet you".

I don't have to say I'm Dr. Holden McGroin, after all, I'm wearing the labcoat with my name on it, they know who I am!
 
If you are insecure, call yourself a podiatric surgeon

I'm curious why the premise is that if you choose a term other than Podiatrist, it's because of some kind of insecurity. You got me thinking PADPM, see my comment below for a little more explanation.

I can assure you that the majority of you will not be performing surgery 40 hours a week despite the best training. We do a LOT of other great things in addition to surgery on a daily basis, and I'm excluding palliative care.

If you are treating fractures non surgically which we all do at times, are you a podiatric surgeon?

A couple of things come to mind on this topic.

I agree that fewer Pods will be purely surgical in practice compared to typical ortho (40 hours a week let's say) however a question comes to mind: Do you base what you call yourself on your typical patient mix in a week or your training?

I can't recall hearing an orthopedic surgeon refer to themselves an "orthopedist" very often.

They also do not solely treat via surgical intervention, with certain sub-specialties seeing more non surgical patients than others. Nonetheless, their use of the title of orthopedic surgeon is never questioned.

There are surgical specialties specialties - ENT, Opthalmology- where surgery is a major part of the job and the word surgeon is not as commonly used, however if they chose to refer to themselves as an "eye surgeon" or otherwise use the title, I don't foresee anyone causing much fuss.

Would we consider them insecure for including surgeon? We might, but only because the thought that comes to mind is duh, I KNOW you are a surgeon, no need to tell me.

That is not the case with Podiatry right now, even though awareness is on the rise.

None of this is intended as a persuasive argument, just a few of my thoughts reading this thread.

I haven't decided how I will refer to myself yet. Still a ways off. :)
 
You are correct. Using the term podiatric surgeon does not necessarily indicate you are insecure. I was simply trying to make a point. You can call yourself anything you want, but in reality no one but you will really care. It's not the title that means anything, it's the skill and reputation you develop.
 
I've already commented on how I feel. I don't think it really matters what you call yourself, it's your actions that will ultimately matter. If you are insecure, call yourself a podiatric surgeon, but I can assure you that the majority of you will not be peforming surgery 40 hours a week despite the best training. We do a LOT of other great things in addition to surgery on a daily basis, and I'm excluding palliative care.

If you are treating fractures non surgically which we all do at times, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating wounds without surgical intervention, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating heel pain conservatively, are you a podiatric surgeon? If you are treating injuries, are you a podiatric surgeon? Yes, I know, surgeons don't treat EVERYTHING surgically, but I think you get my point. As Kidsfeet stated, I'm a DPM who performs surgery.

And as per a prior post, when I introduce myself, I rarely if EVER use the "doctor" thing. In the office I NEVER introduce myself as doctor. I walk into the treatment room and introduce myself to new patients by shaking his/her hand and saying "Hi, I'm Holden McGroin, nice to meet you".

I don't have to say I'm Dr. Holden McGroin, after all, I'm wearing the labcoat with my name on it, they know who I am!

Ha!. Dr. McGroin you slipped up. You have revealed your secret identity to us. But I am sure dtrack already knew this was your name.
 
It's not the title that means anything, it's the skill and reputation you develop.

This is a quotation we should all live by. Not only in our chosen profession, but in everything we do. Yes, I'm being serious.

The next little bit is my just putting something out there. It's not meant to be a criticism of what's going on, but just food for thought.

There has been a recent push to change the name of the American Board of Podiatric Surgery, to the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery. I really scratch my head as to why. Why is our purveying educational institution for post graduates not called the American College of Podiatric Surgery, but the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgery? We know who we are and what we do. Some of my more illustrious colleagues will never utter the word "Podiatrist" in their careers. They'd rather be known as "Foot and Ankle Surgeons".

The college I went to is called The Temple University School of Podiatric Medicine, not The Temple University School of Foot and Ankle Medicine, nor was it called The Temple University School of Foot and Ankle Surgery. It wasn't even called The Temple University School of Podiatric Surgery.

I'm a Podiartist. I've been one since I graduated from Podiatry School. I will hopefully be one until the day I decide to retire.
 
You don't achieve parity by the title you refer yourself by. Simply referring ourselves as all podiatric surgeons is not going to change anything. Parity is really achieved through hard work and being the best podiatrist you can be. As long as all the graduates from residency programs put their best foot forward this profession will continue to prosper. Just like any other young MD or DO coming out of residency...everyone has to prove themselves.

I said it just might speed up the process and increase business if we are recognized by a title that has "surgeon" in the name ... not that referring to myself as a podiatric surgeon will change anything over night.

Not all "new age" podiatrists will be doing a lot of surgery when they get out. Even though the surgery training is there in residency it really varies depending on which program you match into. Also, some students will just opt to not do surgery at all, rather focusing more on diabetic wound care, or simply just providing other non-surgical care.

I did point this out in my last post so you must have passed over it completely. To once again compare our field to other surgical specialties, let me say that I have had never had surgery of any kind, yet I have visited orthopedic surgeons, ENTs, and opthamologists regularly over certain periods of my life for non-invasive care. I see these specialties taking more pride in the fact they are surgeons even though they help patients in many ways other than operating. They know their specialty so well that they can be as invasive or non-invasive as necessary, but the surgical option is there for any MD in said specialties (and others) b/c they all earned it and EVERYONE knows what they went through to obtain that title, so they trust them under the knife (or in the office) and they get plenty of "big ticket items" that PADPM has talked about before. If podiatrists want more of those, then let everyone know you earned the right to be called a surgeon by calling yourself one. THEN explain what else podiatrists do. Instead of being "podiatrists who do surgery" why not be "podiatric surgeons who also use non-invasive techniques." It's just smart marketing!

I feel you are making the wrong assumption in that all newly graduated students are the ones with the real surgical training! There are plenty of current pacticing podiatrists who only did 1-2 years of residency training (because thats all there was back then) who do a significant amount of surgery now and are the ones who are training the "new age" students coming through residency programs.

I didn't mean to give anyone the idea that current podiatric surgeons are obsolete. I've shadowed several and have profound respect for them, but these surgeons kept up with their continuing education and will be the first to admit that podiatry today is far more advanced now than when they went through school. New age pods can naturally increase awareness now that ALL residencies are surgical by marketing ourselves differently, starting with our name.

Lastly, I don't understand why you are trying to dissect the different nomenclature of how current podiatric professionals like to refer to themselves. Your also attaching a psychological profile with person who would refer themself by that title which is just weird. A person practicing in our field can refer to themselves however they want IMO. Whatever title they use to describe themselves doesn't describe who they are as a health professional and person. Their overall professional demeanor and the way they ethically treat their patients tells that story.

The last 2 bold-face words I dissected were meant more in fun. I took it over the edge on purpose and after reading it again, I admit it was a little silly, but I do mean it when I say the title of "podiatrist" has a weak connotation to it now. I feel as if many want to be humble, but I'm more interested in pods attracting "big ticket items." We compete with MD orthopedic surgeons for these items ... a title which is known by EVERYBODY as very qualified and intelligent surgeons, and that is why they are winning. Too much of the public still doesn't know that we are more qualified to operate on the lower extremity than an MD that spent 5 weeks on it. I sure didn't know until very recently and I was pre-med. Six months ago I would have never thought to go to a foot doctor for surgery, so I can use myself as an example. If the term podiatrist never existed and I needed ankle surgery and I could choose between an orthopedic surgeon or a podiatric surgeon, I would naturally put more thought into my choice and try to figure out the difference between the 2. Professionals in this field have not done a very good job at marketing themselves. I'm convinced that attracting "big ticket items" will require more pods referring to themselves as podiatric surgeons.

My responses are in blue in the paragraph above.
 
Funny enough, I recently applied to a new hospital and was asked if I perform abortions.

What on earth??? Toenail abortions maybe?

Kidsfeet said:
I'm a Podiartist

I don't know if you did the above intentionally or if it was a typo, but I like it. "Podi-artist."
 
I don't know if you did the above intentionally or if it was a typo, but I like it. "Podi-artist."

It was not intentional, but I like it too!!

Reminds me of a funny story.

When I was in residency and a patient would ask my residency director why chose a podiatrist for their foot surgery rather than an orthopedist, this is what he would say. I am NOT making this up.

He would say something along this line. "When you want to hire someone to paint your house, you hire a house painter. Do you hire a house painter to paint a portrait of you on a canvas? NO! You hire an artist. The orthopedist is the house painter. I'M the artist!!"

I kid you not. It was hilarious. And once again, I'm NOT kidding about this. And NO, I don't tell my patients this lol.
 
He would say something along this line. "When you want to hire someone to paint your house, you hire a house painter. Do you hire a house painter to paint a portrait of you on a canvas? NO! You hire an artist. The orthopedist is the house painter. I'M the artist!!"

Oooof. Dr. Hugh Bris at your service.
 
it was not intentional, but i like it too!!



He would say something along this line. "when you want to hire someone to paint your house, you hire a house painter. Do you hire a house painter to paint a portrait of you on a canvas? No! You hire an artist. The orthopedist is the house painter. I'm the artist!!"


this is phenomenal !
 
It was not intentional, but I like it too!!

Reminds me of a funny story.

When I was in residency and a patient would ask my residency director why chose a podiatrist for their foot surgery rather than an orthopedist, this is what he would say. I am NOT making this up.

He would say something along this line. "When you want to hire someone to paint your house, you hire a house painter. Do you hire a house painter to paint a portrait of you on a canvas? NO! You hire an artist. The orthopedist is the house painter. I'M the artist!!"

I kid you not. It was hilarious. And once again, I'm NOT kidding about this. And NO, I don't tell my patients this lol.



This is awesome! I think I'm going to print it:laugh:
 
Podiatrist: a weak title fit for those who may be stuck in the past
Podiatric surgeon: a strong and accurate title
Foot and ankle surgeon: a title fit for insecure individuals who used podiatry as a backup to medical school
Physician specializing in foot and ankle surgery: An embarrassing title reserved for only the most conceited podiatric surgeons who not only used podiatry school as a backup but also run pseduo-successful practices

As an orthopaedic surgeon with the utmost respect for your profession, I do believe it is disingenuous to use the title "Foot and Ankle Surgeon." Own up to your training and call yourself a "Podiatric Foot and Ankle Surgeon."
I agree that anyone using the title "Physician specializing in foot and ankle surgery" is trying too hard to "prove" to their patients that they are qualified to manage their problems. In my opinion podiatrists that do not convey that portion of their credentials to their patients are (not so) subtly implying they are an MD.
 
I would bet money that a majority of individuals in the general public don't know that a Podiatrist doesn't go to a traditional allopathic medical school. Since I believe that to be true, I don't see the need to market yourself as anything BUT a Podiatrist.

In fact, I personally would rather not let the general public know that I am a surgeon (until maybe my patient population was full of individuals requesting elective procedures). Nobody in the medical profession really cares what you call yourself, so really your "title" is a marketing ploy geared towards patients who may be searching for your services. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't know too many people who go around looking for surgeons to cut them open. I would rather most patients not think of me as a surgeon before their initial visit because that fear of surgery is immediately in their head. Then,once we have discussed/pursued all conservative treatment options, we can discuss surgery and they can call me Dr. Podiatric Surgeon of the Foot and Ankle who has a limited scope and is definitely not a real physician (or whatever else they prefer to call me).

My only experience, of course, is my own disdain for having to see our team orthopaedic surgeon knowing full well that it meant I was going to need a new ACl and would be out for a season...it is entirely possible that I am the minority I guess.

Oh and skiz's post is spot on IMO
 
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't know too many people who go around looking for surgeons to cut them open.

I disagree. From the year I spent in clinic, I've seen many patients who are more than ready to go under the knife for a procedure. Many patients believe that surgery is the end all for all of their pain/problems, and would rather not exhaust their conservative options.

With the current literature out from APMA, it's impossible for patients who read that to not know you're a surgeon. If we really want to enlighten the public, you have to let them know about our training, which is very procedural in nature, beginning in 3rd year.

Because all of our residencies are surgical, there isn't anything wrong letting patients know that you can fix something surgically, after they've tried conservative txs. To not give them a full timeline with what they can expect isn't helpful IMO.
 
I got here quite by mistake, but felt the need to post anyway...(and you'll see why below)

I'm actually an ophthalmologist...not an "Oculosurgeon," though "Eye physician and surgeon" would, indeed, be technically correct.

Note the fact that there are two "h" 's in ophthalmologist and, I would point out, that even well educated people cannot even spell, or pronounce, this correctly (I'm looking at you NebraskaFoot and DrRicky).

Most of the patients I meet don't understand the difference between ophthalmologists and optometrists. I'm more than okay with that...I probably wouldn't either if this weren't my specialty, and 99% of the time I don't care and don't bother explaining it to them.

What bothers me is when someone attempts to "blur the line," intentionally. I'm going to list a few examples...

1.) I introduce myself as "[first name] [last name]" every time I meet someone... If they see and comprehend what the MD behind my name actually stands for, then so be it. (Some) ODs, I've noticed, invariably introduce themselves as "Dr. so-and-so," (no credentials listed) even to most ophthalmologists who introduce themselves as [first name] [last name].

2.) I'm an ophthalmologist, and I don't feel the need to work the word "surgeon" into my title. Note here, the recent trend of (some) optometrists to introduce the term "optometric physician"

3.) I wear a suit when I'm in the office and scrubs when I'm in the OR. (Some) optometrists wear scrubs because... Well, because they're comfortable, I suppose?

The list goes on...

Yet, I cannot overstate the importance good primary (eye) care providers in this country and why they play such a critical role. We are very much on the same team in the long haul...

I don't know the field of podiatry well, but I hope this reply offers some insight on the thread topic above, even if it is coming from a slightly opposing viewpoint.
 
I disagree. From the year I spent in clinic, I've seen many patients who are more than ready to go under the knife for a procedure. Many patients believe that surgery is the end all for all of their pain/problems, and would rather not exhaust their conservative options.

With the current literature out from APMA, it's impossible for patients who read that to not know you're a surgeon. If we really want to enlighten the public, you have to let them know about our training, which is very procedural in nature, beginning in 3rd year.

Because all of our residencies are surgical, there isn't anything wrong letting patients know that you can fix something surgically, after they've tried conservative txs. To not give them a full timeline with what they can expect isn't helpful IMO.

We are talking about different things...kind of. My post is regarding how you market yourself. You are talking about dealing with patients once they are already under your care (ie a 3rd year student, working up an attendings patient in clinic).

I don't doubt that many people are ok with surgery once everything (benefits/risks of procedure) is explained, but you think a majority of people came to the clinic wanting to surgically correct their pain without even knowing what is wrong?

Like I said before, if your practice is mostly elective procedures then marketing yourself as a surgeon may be beneficial. Same if you worked in an ortho group, but we all know how common those jobs are

There is a reason you don't hear guys calling themselves "exterminators" nearly as often as you used to. Now, you have to look up "pest control". It has nothing to do with their training or ability to kill insects and rodents...it has everything to do with how they market themselves to get their foot in the door. You can't kill someone's raccoon if you can't get em to pick up the phone and call you. Once you got em, then you can educate all you want and let your work speak for itself.

None of this really matters though. If you want to call yourself a "podiatric surgeon" go for it. Podiatrist? Thats ok too. I like looking at podiatry groups' web pages and have seen "foot health", "foot and ankle specialists" and "foot and ankle care" as either part of the domain name or the main heading of the home page. All of them clearly delineate themselves as Podiatrists, so IMO there is nothing misleading going on. Whatever it takes to get patients in the door and $$ in your kids' college funds is fine with me, so long as you aren't misrepresenting our profession or the restrictions involved with our license.
 
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I got here quite by mistake, but felt the need to post anyway...(and you'll see why below)

I'm actually an ophthalmologist...not an "Oculosurgeon," though "Eye physician and surgeon" would, indeed, be technically correct.

Note the fact that there are two "h" 's in ophthalmologist and, I would point out, that even well educated people cannot even spell, or pronounce, this correctly (I'm looking at you NebraskaFoot and DrRicky).

Most of the patients I meet don't understand the difference between ophthalmologists and optometrists. I'm more than okay with that...I probably wouldn't either if this weren't my specialty, and 99% of the time I don't care and don't bother explaining it to them.

What bothers me is when someone attempts to "blur the line," intentionally. I'm going to list a few examples...

1.) I introduce myself as "[first name] [last name]" every time I meet someone... If they see and comprehend what the MD behind my name actually stands for, then so be it. (Some) ODs, I've noticed, invariably introduce themselves as "Dr. so-and-so," (no credentials listed) even to most ophthalmologists who introduce themselves as [first name] [last name].

2.) I'm an ophthalmologist, and I don't feel the need to work the word "surgeon" into my title. Note here, the recent trend of (some) optometrists to introduce the term "optometric physician"

3.) I wear a suit when I'm in the office and scrubs when I'm in the OR. (Some) optometrists wear scrubs because... Well, because they're comfortable, I suppose?

The list goes on...

Yet, I cannot overstate the importance good primary (eye) care providers in this country and why they play such a critical role. We are very much on the same team in the long haul...

I don't know the field of podiatry well, but I hope this reply offers some insight on the thread topic above, even if it is coming from a slightly opposing viewpoint.

Very well stated. As a recent podiatry school graduate, and very happy with my profession, this is one aspect of podiatry that bothers me. Most of my classmates that just graduated are posting on facebook that they have graduated from "medical school" and are "doctors." Sorry, but I think we all know better. If you are comfortable being a podiatrist, then be a podiatrist. Podiatry school is not the same as medical school, and if you wanted to go to medical school, then you should have gone to medical school. The admission standards, clinical curriculum, and licensing tests are not the same. Yes, many aspects are the same, and yes we treat people, but so do dentists, and they went to dental school and are dentists. I think that we as podiatrists will ultimately be better respected if we are truthful about who we are and let our work and training (which I believe is nothing to be shameful of) stand on its own merit.
 
...I would rather most patients not think of me as a surgeon before their initial visit because that fear of surgery is immediately in their head.

My partners and I had this very discussion several years ago when we formed our group. One proposed group name included the term "Foot Surgeons" but we all decided against it because we figured that a lot of patients are intentionally trying to find non-surgical treatments. We ended up with "Foot Care" to denote all manner of treatments.

I usually introduce myself by first and last name and let the patient decide how they want to address me. Frankly I end up on a first name basis with most of my patients. This is a small town and people are pretty informal here. Typically the only time I use my title is when I call someone on the phone because it seems to be the quickest way to orient whoever answers the phone. "This is Dr. Natch at SDN Foot Care calling for Jim regarding his test results. May I speak with him please?"
 
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I got here quite by mistake, but felt the need to post anyway...(and you'll see why below)

I'm actually an ophthalmologist...not an "Oculosurgeon," though "Eye physician and surgeon" would, indeed, be technically correct.

Note the fact that there are two "h" 's in ophthalmologist and, I would point out, that even well educated people cannot even spell, or pronounce, this correctly (I'm looking at you NebraskaFoot and DrRicky).

Most of the patients I meet don't understand the difference between ophthalmologists and optometrists. I'm more than okay with that...I probably wouldn't either if this weren't my specialty, and 99% of the time I don't care and don't bother explaining it to them.

What bothers me is when someone attempts to "blur the line," intentionally. I'm going to list a few examples...

1.) I introduce myself as "[first name] [last name]" every time I meet someone... If they see and comprehend what the MD behind my name actually stands for, then so be it. (Some) ODs, I've noticed, invariably introduce themselves as "Dr. so-and-so," (no credentials listed) even to most ophthalmologists who introduce themselves as [first name] [last name].

2.) I'm an ophthalmologist, and I don't feel the need to work the word "surgeon" into my title. Note here, the recent trend of (some) optometrists to introduce the term "optometric physician"

3.) I wear a suit when I'm in the office and scrubs when I'm in the OR. (Some) optometrists wear scrubs because... Well, because they're comfortable, I suppose?

The list goes on...

Yet, I cannot overstate the importance good primary (eye) care providers in this country and why they play such a critical role. We are very much on the same team in the long haul...

I don't know the field of podiatry well, but I hope this reply offers some insight on the thread topic above, even if it is coming from a slightly opposing viewpoint.


Excellent post, and thank you for your thoughtful insight (no pun intended)......well maybe it was intended! It's nice to have the perspective of someone objective and outside the podiatric profession.

As I've stated in a prior post, I also introduce myself to new patients by shaking his/her hand and saying my first and last name. I see no need to say "Hi, I'm Dr. Ben Dover", since they already know I'm the doctor. I'm the guy in the lab coat with my name embroidered on the coat, so it's pretty obvious.

On a completely different note, I do wear scrubs in the office as a matter of practicality. I see a fair amount of post operative patients requiring dressing changes, cast changes, etc., and treat a fair number of wounds, infections, etc. As a result, I'd rather change scrubs during the day if necessary instead of ruining my clothes/ties.

Interestingly, studies have shown that patients do prefer the male doctor in a shirt/tie/labcoat, but scrubs and a lab coat were also "OK". Some of the docs in our practice wear scrubs and a lab coat and some wear shirt/tie/labcoat, it's simply personal preference.
 
On a completely different note, I do wear scrubs in the office as a matter of practicality. I see a fair amount of post operative patients requiring dressing changes, cast changes, etc., and treat a fair number of wounds, infections, etc. As a result, I'd rather change scrubs during the day if necessary instead of ruining my clothes/tie.

Well, you're partially correct. I do wear expensive suits, but not to the office.;)
 
Weren't neckties implicated in disease transmission awhile back (since guys don't clean their ties regularly)?

I wear a scrub top (but a nice one with my name embroidered on it) with khakis and Vibram Five Fingers shoes (j/k).
 
Weren't neckties implicated in disease transmission awhile back (since guys don't clean their ties regularly)?

I wear a scrub top (but a nice one with my name embroidered on it) with khakis and Vibram Five Fingers shoes (j/k).


I may be wrong, but I thought that some hospitals in England actually banned doctors from wearing ties due to possible cross contamination, etc.

However, there are so many ways to spread infection. How often to people clean pens, lab coats, cell phones that they use all the time, etc.
 
My partners and I had this very discussion several years ago when we formed our group. One proposed group name included the term "Foot Surgeons" but we all decided against it because we figured that a lot of patients are intentionally trying to find non-surgical treatments. We ended up with "Foot Care" to denote all manner of treatments.

That's pretty interesting. I wonder if there is a trend in regions throughout the states as to whether a certain pt population will be more willing to undergo surgical treatments early in the course of tx vs. conservative measures.

With all of the information available to patients now, are there a lot of pts coming into the office with a dx in mind already and the tx options available?

On the externship I'm on now, It seems as though the pts are undergoing sx very early in the treatment process; maybe having pain for <6m and haven't tried conservative options like orthotics, padding, or injections.

What do you guys think?
 
I may be wrong, but I thought that some hospitals in England actually banned doctors from wearing ties due to possible cross contamination, etc.

However, there are so many ways to spread infection. How often to people clean pens, lab coats, cell phones that they use all the time, etc.

My coat makes me feel insanely germy.
 
That's pretty interesting. I wonder if there is a trend in regions throughout the states as to whether a certain pt population will be more willing to undergo surgical treatments early in the course of tx vs. conservative measures.

With all of the information available to patients now, are there a lot of pts coming into the office with a dx in mind already and the tx options available?

On the externship I'm on now, It seems as though the pts are undergoing sx very early in the treatment process; maybe having pain for <6m and haven't tried conservative options like orthotics, padding, or injections.

What do you guys think?

You are the doctor. I don't let my patients dictate to me what their treatment protocol will be or what their diagnosis is. It sounds harsh, but if you let this happen in your practice there is trouble ahead for you. I am not big on doing surgery without at least an attempt at conservative management. The patient that scares me the most is the one that comes to see me, tells me what's wrong with them, tells me that they've tried it all, and the only solution for them is surgery. They then usually ask me for a narcotic, so they can deal with their pain, while they wait for me to "fix" them.

You have to do what you feel is best for your patients. I personally don't feel like rushing someone to the OR for an elective procedure is in their best interest and tell them so. If they leave me and go somewhere else, they will likely be better suited elsewhere.
 
That's pretty interesting. I wonder if there is a trend in regions throughout the states as to whether a certain pt population will be more willing to undergo surgical treatments early in the course of tx vs. conservative measures.

I don't know about regional differences but from what I've seen in my own practice younger folks (<45 y/o) tend to be more reluctant to have surgery (possibly because they haven't had any or much surgery yet?), from 45-65 they tend to be pretty open to it (ehhh,what's another surgery?), and older than that they would rather just ride it out with conservative care. It probably has a lot to do with degree of dysfunction too.

With all of the information available to patients now, are there a lot of pts coming into the office with a dx in mind already and the tx options available?
I'm generalizing a lot here...

My younger patients tend to be more comfortable looking up info on the internet and often come in with some educated guess as to what's going on with them and have read about the treatments for what they think their diagnosis is. Many are just looking for confirmation and want help understanding the treatment options. Older patients tend to want me to just take the reins. Few patients have demanded specific treatments. Mothers of young children will have done the most background reading of all, and will question your proposed treatment before letting you touch their kid (don't mess with Momma Bear).

On the externship I'm on now, It seems as though the pts are undergoing sx very early in the treatment process; maybe having pain for <6m and haven't tried conservative options like orthotics, padding, or injections.
I think each of us has a different comfort level as to how quickly we take a patient to surgery. I know some docs who have surgery in mind for each new patient and some who will tirelessly do conservative care. I think each patient has his own threshold too. Hopefully the patient and the doctor are of similar mind.

Here's a viewpoint I found interesting that I heard from a primary care physician: when a patient has a problem, often both the patient and the PCP have tried conservative care before sending the patient to the surgical specialist. They see the surgical specialist as end-of-the-line care. In other words, by the time the patient gets to the specialist both the PCP and the patient want the specialist to just fix the problem already, as conservative treatment has already been attempted and hasn't been adequate. The referral to you is not the beginning of the treatment process but rather the end of it. The PCP wonders why you would be dinking around with felt pads and epsom salt soaks when he sent the patient to you to do something definitive. Of course this scenario doesn't apply to all patients and ailments but I can see the viewpoint. What do you think of it? When does it apply? When does it not apply?
 
The patient that scares me the most is the one that comes to see me, tells me what's wrong with them, tells me that they've tried it all, and the only solution for them is surgery.

The patient that scares me the most is the one whose chief complaint is, "Need orthotics."
 
The patient that scares me the most is the one whose chief complaint is, "Need orthotics."


The one that scares me the most is the one who wants NEW orthotics because the huge bag of orthotics and shoes he/she walks in with "don't work".

Your comments about patients failing conservative care already attempted by the PCP is valid, though I've often found that I have to really start from square one.

Did the PCP really do a proper work up for the condition? To most PCP's, every patient with heel pain is "a heel spur" or plantar fasciitis, despite many other possible causes. And even when the diagnosis may be correct, many of the PCP's conservative methods are out-dated or not what I would recommend.

So although many of these patients may be "ripe" and ready for surgery, I usually start from scratch and explain everything to the patient in detail to assure that before I take the patient to the O.R., they have failed MY conservative treatment regimen, not someone else's.

Of course there are many exceptions when surgery is really the only real option, but the above comments are my general concept.

And on a side note, during my pre-operative visit, I do review my post operative regimen, but I do NOT write prescriptions for post op medication until the surgery is completed. I know of many colleagues who write the prescriptions for the post op meds, including narcotics prior to the surgery, and that's not a practice I believe is prudent.
 
Hey PADPM,
Thanks for your post,I have been suffering long time in foot problem and now I am going to arrange a surgery to remove the pain.
 
Here's a viewpoint I found interesting that I heard from a primary care physician: when a patient has a problem, often both the patient and the PCP have tried conservative care before sending the patient to the surgical specialist. They see the surgical specialist as end-of-the-line care. In other words, by the time the patient gets to the specialist both the PCP and the patient want the specialist to just fix the problem already, as conservative treatment has already been attempted and hasn't been adequate. The referral to you is not the beginning of the treatment process but rather the end of it. The PCP wonders why you would be dinking around with felt pads and epsom salt soaks when he sent the patient to you to do something definitive. Of course this scenario doesn't apply to all patients and ailments but I can see the viewpoint. What do you think of it? When does it apply? When does it not apply?


This is a good point and what I think it really boils down to ... how does the public view us? Are we viewed mostly as specialists or "tenders of corns and calluses" as that hot new article about CA pod schools reaching parity with MD programs calls us? Yes that is part of what we do but I feel that too many people believe that is pretty much ALL we do. I respect what the ophthalmologist is saying (more on that in my next post) but the comparison between him and optometrists vs. us and PCPs doesn't work b/c it's the exact opposite situation podiatrists are in (optometrists are the primary eye care doctors who refer to ophthalmologists for specialized care while PCPs would be considered the primary diagnoser of foot issues and refer to podiatrists for specialized care). We want to be seen as the specialists we are and not glorified pedicurists.

I have seen many posts on SDN concerning how the field is becoming very surgical. Even if you want to do sports medicine with minimal invasive care, the reality is residencies nowadays are focusing very heavily on surgery and it becomes a game of who can get the higher case load.

Does this not sound like a podiatric surgeon? While of course a doctor can call himself whatever he wants, at least don't judge those who choose to put surgeon in their title as being cocky. Sometimes it takes a little push to fight back against a bigger beast ... the very well-established orthopedic groups. New age pods are entering at a time when CA is putting together a task force to integrate these 2 groups, YET 50% of the people I meet don't know what a podiatrist is! Say you're a podiatric surgeon and see how the reaction changes with these people.
 
I got here quite by mistake, but felt the need to post anyway...(and you'll see why below)

I'm actually an ophthalmologist...not an "Oculosurgeon," though "Eye physician and surgeon" would, indeed, be technically correct.

Note the fact that there are two "h" 's in ophthalmologist and, I would point out, that even well educated people cannot even spell, or pronounce, this correctly (I'm looking at you NebraskaFoot and DrRicky).

Most of the patients I meet don't understand the difference between ophthalmologists and optometrists. I'm more than okay with that...I probably wouldn't either if this weren't my specialty, and 99% of the time I don't care and don't bother explaining it to them.

What bothers me is when someone attempts to "blur the line," intentionally. I'm going to list a few examples...

1.) I introduce myself as "[first name] [last name]" every time I meet someone... If they see and comprehend what the MD behind my name actually stands for, then so be it. (Some) ODs, I've noticed, invariably introduce themselves as "Dr. so-and-so," (no credentials listed) even to most ophthalmologists who introduce themselves as [first name] [last name].

2.) I'm an ophthalmologist, and I don't feel the need to work the word "surgeon" into my title. Note here, the recent trend of (some) optometrists to introduce the term "optometric physician"

3.) I wear a suit when I'm in the office and scrubs when I'm in the OR. (Some) optometrists wear scrubs because... Well, because they're comfortable, I suppose?

The list goes on...

Yet, I cannot overstate the importance good primary (eye) care providers in this country and why they play such a critical role. We are very much on the same team in the long haul...

I don't know the field of podiatry well, but I hope this reply offers some insight on the thread topic above, even if it is coming from a slightly opposing viewpoint.


I understand what you are saying, but the relationship between you and optometrists is very different that the relationship between podiatrists and orthopedic surgeons. Optometrists can't do surgery, and ophthalmologists (it is tricky to spell) do a lot of surgery. The optometrists are your best friends unless for some reason your practice is suffering so bad that you feel the need to start prescribing glasses all day (not to knock optometrists ... I know you're trained in much more than just saying "1 or 2" all day but I'm proving a point here). Ophthalmologists RELY on optometrists to find eye trauma and therefore get many patient referrals from them whereas podiatrists COMPETE with orthopods because we ARE trained as surgeons. So it makes very little difference if 99% of your patients don't know the difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist because in their stupidity there is no way they can stumble into an optometrist's office and receive an operation.

When I'm seeing patients, I too will introduce myself by first and last name b/c it's more personal and less intimidating than storming in with arrogance and saying "Dr. Ricky V, podiatric surgeon, damn glad to meet ya" with a wink; plus that's really not my personality. When a patient is in my office, I've already got his business ... I'll tell him what I can do for him and I don't have to impress anyone. It's outside of the office where it matters b/c people need to know that we're trained in more than corns and calluses. I've said it before ... it's much less about pride and more about good marketing; and it's not cocky.
 
I keep it really simple now. When people ask what I do, I simply tell them I'm in the repair business. When they ask WHAT I repair I tell them "the foot and ankle".
 
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