Podiatrists in California to get an MD Degree?

[flatearth22]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11091288#post11091288


"RE: CPMA Works With CMA and COA to Achieve M.D. License Parity

Here is the "joint announcement," agreed upon between leadership of the California Podiatric Medical Association, the California Medical Association, and the California Orthopaedic Association, as of March 18, 2011. This should make very clear the intention of our Task Force as mentioned in the article appearing in the June 5 edition of the Sacramento Bee:
"The California Medical Association (CMA), the California Orthopaedic Association (COA), and the California Podiatric Medical Association (CPMA) have agreed to launch a joint task force to evaluate the education and training of future graduates of California podiatric schools, with the goal of preparing these students to have the education, training, and certification that would allow them to be licensed as physicians and surgeons in California. The agreement includes an understanding that the California podiatric schools would be expected to be accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME)."
President, CPMA."

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[SmokD]

IF the training is similar, and the standards are held the same, then sure there should be parity.....but that's a big if...

 

[BobBarker]

If the Pod schools can obtain LCME approval then they should get an MD.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

Is it even possible to realistically meet lcme and podiatry standards in one 4 year curriculum?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is a repost of a thread in pre-allo and they aren't getting MD's. They however going to be treated like they are a medical specialty under the new LCME regulations.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Read about this for a while now, and I'm still confused. It seems like people are saying different things ...

1. DPM schools in CA will undergo LCME accreditation, which makes them allopathic medical schools, which would graduate MD students (guess we can nix the clinicals) who are actually DPMs who enter non-ACGME F/A surgical programs??? Que???

2. Some DPM to MD conversion where people trained in podiatry schools can enter non-podiatric ACGME residencies? Que version 2.0?

3. The DPM will be phased out and the podiatric/F&A type residencies will just become a specialty regulated under the ACGME?

4. This is just groups working together to try and get appropriate rights/insurance recognition for DPMs so they have 'parity' with their MD counterparts??

Any clarification is welcomed because seems like each thread I read simply declines into a standard SDN argument revolving around who actually attends medical school, why no one is ever insecure in their career choice, who's a physician, why one group is the ONLY group trained to perform a certain task, etc, etc.

 

[The Virginian]

Here is the official release from the California Medical Association, California Podiatric Medical Association, and California Orthopaedic Association from the San Diego County Medical Society. Nowhere does it say "M.D." but it does mention licensed physicians and surgeons repeatedly and that future podiatric medical graduates would simply be medical school graduates.

http://sdcms.org/article/cma-news-r...edic-surgeons-and-podiatrists-reach-historic-

 

[Taty]

why the same thing gets posted in multiple forums?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

why the same thing gets posted in multiple forums?

A few are thinking, "I could have gone to pod school to get that MD?? "

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think it's posted all over because it's random and no one can get a straight answer on what it even means. Even in the Pod forums it seems like podiatry students and practicing pods can't even come to a consensus on what the whole situation entails.

EDIT: So after reading that official release, it seems like what they want to do is have Podiatry schools in CA undergo LCME accreditation and become allopathic medical schools which would 100% mean they award the MD degree, allow students to sit for the USMLE, and put grads into ACGME residency programs. First, good luck getting LCME write off on pod schools - namely due to clinical rotation sites and the fact that this would entail a school like Western (DO program) to also have LCME accreditation and award the MD degree, but unlike other schools with MD/DO programs, it would really have nothing to do with the DO program itself??

Second, how would this not completely wipe podiatry out of CA and essentially make it something that physicians can go into/practice???

This thing still makes no sense and my guess is that the LCME approval hurdle will be impossible to clear unless it's a ploy to essentially use these programs as a slightly easier route to overhauling and opening up more US MD schools without starting from total scratch.

 

[Socrates25]

This is a repost of a thread in pre-allo and they aren't getting MD's. They however going to be treated like they are a medical specialty under the new LCME regulations.

Wrong. The LCME controls regulation of MD programs. They have zero say or control over the medical specialties. That is reserved to the various specialty board organizations.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I think it's posted all over because it's random and no one can get a straight answer on what it even means. Even in the Pod forums it seems like podiatry students and practicing pods can't even come to a consensus on what the whole situation entails.

EDIT: So after reading that official release, it seems like what they want to do is have Podiatry schools in CA undergo LCME accreditation and become allopathic medical schools which would 100% mean they award the MD degree, allow students to sit for the USMLE, and put grads into ACGME residency programs. First, good luck getting LCME write off on pod schools - namely due to clinical rotation sites and the fact that this would entail a school like Western (DO program) to also have LCME accreditation and award the MD degree, but unlike other schools with MD/DO programs, it would really have nothing to do with the DO program itself??

Second, how would this not completely wipe podiatry out of CA and essentially make it something that physicians can go into/practice???

This thing still makes no sense and my guess is that the LCME approval hurdle will be impossible to clear unless it's a ploy to essentially use these programs as a slightly easier route to overhauling and opening up more US MD schools without starting from total scratch.

So Western would then have an MD school in addition to the DO...

 

[Vishna]

So Western would then have an MD school in addition to the DO...

 

[shaggy alfresco]

If they can meet LCME requirements re: rotations and other things (which many non allopathic schools would not meet, especially rotation situations and the funding requirements of LCME schools - e.g, only a certain % can come from tuition, etc), I have no problem with it. If they want to do a residency, it's likely that they will have to pass USMLE steps as well (part of being an allopathic school), so again, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Vishna]

If they can meet LCME requirements re: rotations and other things (which many non allopathic schools would not meet, especially rotation situations and the funding requirements of LCME schools - e.g, only a certain % can come from tuition, etc), I have no problem with it. If they want to do a residency, it's likely that they will have to pass USMLE steps as well (part of being an allopathic school), so again, it wouldn't be an issue.

I am completely ignorant when it comes to the curriculum taught at podiatric schools. How do you think they would fare on the USMLE steps?

 

[shaggy alfresco]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to the curriculum taught at podiatric schools. How do you think they would fare on the USMLE steps?

Some of it is the same (e.g some DO schools have mixed classes for some of their classes) but some of it isn't - but that would have to change if they become allopathic schools to better prepare them for the steps. If it doesn't, then they won't pass the steps and the LCME will come down on them for having a bad pass rate or whatever - but more likely the curriculum will be changed as well.

Either way, if they are held to the same standard, then they actually BECOME allopathic schools - in which case, it's just like having new allopathic schools open, so there is no issue there.

 

[Regal Regan]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to the curriculum taught at podiatric schools. How do you think they would fare on the USMLE steps?

I looked into podiatry schools before I decided I couldn't handle staring at feet all day. Their curriculum is different. They'd have to change it. Also, their standards are lower than any med school I've come across. A friend of mine got into one podiatry school with an 18 MCAT and a 2.9 GPA. That will probably have to change.

 

[Vishna]

I looked into podiatry schools before I decided I couldn't handle staring at feet all day. Their curriculum is different. They'd have to change it. Also, their standards are lower than any med school I've come across. A friend of mine got into one podiatry school with an 18 MCAT and a 2.9 GPA. That will probably have to change.

I have an irrational foot phobia. Not really a phobia but I truly do hate feet. So I never ever ever ever even considered podiatry school.

 

[st2205]

it's just like having new allopathic schools open, so there is no issue there.

Or it's just like having old podiatry schools close. Sure, you can address the physician shortage by converting podiatry schools, but then you're going to have a podiatry shortage.

 

[hematosis]

i'm almost positive you wont even come close to getting in ANY podiatry school with a 18. the average gpa for most schools are 3.3-3.4 overall and most schools (ie NYCPM) have cut offs of 21. Average mcat ranges now is from 23-26 depending on school. Source http://www.aacpm.org/


Also, podiatry schools do not replace grades like DO schools. My point is that its getting more and more competitive, and its really unlikely to get into any school with a 2.9 gpa and a 18 mcat.

 

[Regal Regan]

i'm almost positive you wont even come close to getting in ANY podiatry school with a 18. the average gpa for most schools are 3.3-3.4 overall and most schools (ie NYCPM) have cut offs of 21. Average mcat ranges now is from 23-26 depending on school. Source http://www.aacpm.org/

Well, you can be almost positive if you want, but I saw his MCAT score, GPA, and acceptance with my own eyes.

 

[boggvir]

Who cares? If they become allopath schools, the standards will clearly go up due to an influx of applicants.

 

[darazon]

Yes this is very confusing.

The way it was explained to me by someone who sits on one of these committees is that it is not a degree change, but we (DPMs) would be awarded the P&S certificate, which would, theoretically, give us an unlimited scope. With that we would have equal reimbursements with medical and have no problems getting admitting privileges.

The end goal is to hopefully come to a common scope of practice for all DPMs across the country with equal reimbursements with MD/DO. A DPMs scope of practice is different state-by-state. ie. in NY they can't do surgery on the ankle, while in CA we can. Also, DPMs are reimbursed lower for the same procedures that an orthopod would do.

As people have mentioned, at Western we sit with the DOs for all the classes, except OMM. We also do many of the same rotations, minus OBGYN and pshyc. The other Cali school does neither of these, so there is always the chance that this could not go through.....

 

[Vishna]

I'm equally as confused. Are they not being completely forthcoming about their intentions or do they even not know exactly what they're trying to accomplish? It just seems odd that the allopathic branch of medicine is embracing the possibility of DPMs becoming practitioners who are able to practice as they are. I'm saying this because of the long history of MD/DO conflict and legislation battle in the country. It would seem that DPMs are getting handed full scope of practice on a silver platter.

I don't want anyone to think I'm saying that is a bad thing as I've stated before I'm not very exposed to the practice of podiatry. But to be almost grandfathered into full allopathic medical rights? Hmm. I wonder if this announcement is to create more and more competition for podiatry schools so that maybe 10 years from now they can actually do this with the majority of people feeling comfortable with their qualifications.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'm equally as confused. Are they not being completely forthcoming about their intentions or do they even not know exactly what they're trying to accomplish? It just seems odd that the allopathic branch of medicine is embracing the possibility of DPMs becoming practitioners who are able to practice as they are. I'm saying this because of the long history of MD/DO conflict and legislation battle in the country. It would seem that DPMs are getting handed full scope of practice on a silver platter.

I don't want anyone to think I'm saying that is a bad thing as I've stated before I'm not very exposed to the practice of podiatry. But to be almost grandfathered into full allopathic medical rights? Hmm. I wonder if this announcement is to create more and more competition for podiatry schools so that maybe 10 years from now they can actually do this with the majority of people feeling comfortable with their qualifications.

Yeah, I'm puzzled with this also. Thoughts:

- If they're willing to pull DPMs up and effectively give them full rights (or possibly even MD degrees), then there is truly no defensible reason for this MD/DO dichotomy to continue in the US. (And I say this as a occupationally secure person who has no problem having "DO" after his name.)

- This would also, IMHO, be approximately equivalent to suddenly handing dentists a full scope of practice. I have plenty of respect for dentists, but currently the only way they get full scope is if they do one of the MD/DO+DMD mashups. Why leave them out?

- Do they really want even more graduates battling for increasingly sparse MD residency slots?

 

[MSmentor018]

LCME may take over education to regulate and collect $$ but it's not an MD degree by any means. a large hospital corporation on the east coast does not allow podiatrist to do H&P's of any sort because they are not considered a licensed medical provider

 

[EnDOct]

A few are thinking, "I could have gone to pod school to get that MD?? "

Oh boy

 

[hematosis]

Yeah, I'm puzzled with this also. Thoughts:

- If they're willing to pull DPMs up and effectively give them full rights (or possibly even MD degrees), then there is truly no defensible reason for this MD/DO dichotomy to continue in the US. (And I say this as a occupationally secure person who has no problem having "DO" after his name.)

- This would also, IMHO, be approximately equivalent to suddenly handing dentists a full scope of practice. I have plenty of respect for dentists, but currently the only way they get full scope is if they do one of the MD/DO+DMD mashups. Why leave them out?

- Do they really want even more graduates battling for increasingly sparse MD residency slots?

Ugh NO.... Podiatrist go to school for 4 years and have to do a 3 year mandatory residency, including 1 year rotations in family, em , internal, anaesthesia, infectious disease, psychiatry. The 2nd and 3rd year vary depending on the program. I believe you can become a dentist in minimum 3 years with no residency required (UOP). You would be out of your mind to give dentists a "unrestricted license."
The AOA and CMA realize this and that is why they are trying to go forward with this movement.

 

[JaggerPlate]

LCME may take over education to regulate and collect $$ but it's not an MD degree by any means. a large hospital corporation on the east coast does not allow podiatrist to do H&P's of any sort because they are not considered a licensed medical provider

LCME is legally not allowed to review/approve the education of anything besides US MD schools. It's 100% impossible for them to approve the curriculum of a DPM program with it being a DPM program. This whole thing breaks down to two possibilities for me:

1. DPMs want three things: 1. equal reimbursements at levels of DO/MD orthopods for F/A surgeries, 2. more "respect" from medical communities (which, I'm sorry, I don't think this will change and I find the lack of change unfair and completely unjustified), 3. a license that allows for free reign below the knee in all 50 states with a license that says "physician and surgeon" on it so they won't have issues with insurance companies and hospital admissions. Frankly, I find big issues with 3 happening.

2. The LCME is looking for ways to complete the planned (but financially stalled) US MD school expansion, so will use the DPM schools as an easier/quicker way to break down, make changes, and get new MD programs off the ground. Frankly, I see this is more than a conspiracy theory for two reasons : 1. The word LCME being thrown around (like I said before, they can legally only review/approve US MD potential programs) 2. Ortho groups giving it their "support." Why else would a group who has constantly battled and belittled DPMs for years suddenly support them unless the move involved destroying future DPMs in CA???

Regardless, this whole ordeal has NOTHING (in my opinion) to do with changing DPMs to MDs, grandfathering people in, etc. There will be no degree change without DPM schools just becoming allopathic medical schools and rewarding MD degrees to entering students (without grandfather in anyone attending or graduating from there beforehand).

 

[MSmentor018]

LCME is legally not allowed to review/approve the education of anything besides US MD schools. It's 100% impossible for them to approve the curriculum of a DPM program with it being a DPM program. This whole thing breaks down to two possibilities for me:

1. DPMs want three things: 1. equal reimbursements at levels of DO/MD orthopods for F/A surgeries, 2. more "respect" from medical communities (which, I'm sorry, I don't think this will change and I find the lack of change unfair and completely unjustified), 3. a license that allows for free reign below the knee in all 50 states with a license that says "physician and surgeon" on it so they won't have issues with insurance companies and hospital admissions. Frankly, I find big issues with 3 happening.

2. The LCME is looking for ways to complete the planned (but financially stalled) US MD school expansion, so will use the DPM schools as an easier/quicker way to break down, make changes, and get new MD programs off the ground. Frankly, I see this is more than a conspiracy theory for two reasons : 1. The word LCME being thrown around (like I said before, they can legally only review/approve US MD potential programs) 2. Ortho groups giving it their "support." Why else would a group who has constantly battled and belittled DPMs for years suddenly support them unless the move involved destroying future DPMs in CA???

Regardless, this whole ordeal has NOTHING (in my opinion) to do with changing DPMs to MDs, grandfathering people in, etc. There will be no degree change without DPM schools just becoming allopathic medical schools and rewarding MD degrees to entering students (without grandfather in anyone attending or graduating from there beforehand).

I have no idea what LCME is willing to do, maybe it's a subset or at the state level. hell i thought the AOA has control on res 42 until POMA pulled it last yr. wait till you start learning about medical licensing/hospital credentialing at the state level. that's even more committee subjective. as I sit with these groups, I am learning more and more how deep the bureaucracy and paperwork goes

I am thinking it's purely $$$ for increase in rights. LCME takes over, changes the curriculum a little. they still get the DPM but state legistlature allows an increase responsibility (and maybe respect).

the ankle/foot is a very delicate joint full of complications/parts/pieces and i am glad there's someone that studies 7 yrs for it but that academic level of training is nowhere close to a MD/DO degree or residency

I don't know about inquiring DPM to get med schools off the ground and if they're stalled but there's plenty starting up....
http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm

and i definitely can't see the orthopods going along. in orlando we have a DPM residency and consults are basic. ankles down- DPM, ankles up -ortho. that's the market that they've got a hold on. in tampa that doesn't exist. it's all ortho. in a state full of runners, you know how many ankle consults/referral I call a day? that's a ton of $$$ lost.

wait a few years...we'll see

 

[hematosis]

I have no idea what LCME is willing to do, maybe it's a subset or at the state level. hell i thought the AOA has control on res 42 until POMA pulled it last yr. wait till you start learning about medical licensing/hospital credentialing at the state level. that's even more committee subjective. as I sit with these groups, I am learning more and more how deep the bureaucracy and paperwork goes

I am thinking it's purely $$$ for increase in rights. LCME takes over, changes the curriculum a little. they still get the DPM but state legistlature allows an increase responsibility (and maybe respect).

the ankle/foot is a very delicate joint full of complications/parts/pieces and i am glad there's someone that studies 7 yrs for it but that academic level of training is nowhere close to a MD/DO degree or residency

I don't know about inquiring DPM to get med schools off the ground and if they're stalled but there's plenty starting up....
http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm

and i definitely can't see the orthopods going along. in orlando we have a DPM residency and consults are basic. ankles down- DPM, ankles up -ortho. that's the market that they've got a hold on. in tampa that doesn't exist. it's all ortho. in a state full of runners, you know how many ankle consults/referral I call a day? that's a ton of $$$ lost.

wait a few years...we'll see

Please elaborate. I'd like to know how a MD/DO is better trained on the FA than a podiatrist.
Also, at my school we sit through 98% of our classes with our fellow DO students.

 

[taylormade2006]

4 years school + 5 years ortho res + FA fellowship > 4 years school + 3 years res

 

[boggvir]

That makes them experts on other things besides ankles - their orthopedic surgery residency qualifies them to work on lots of different body parts and their first four years of education gives them a better handle of overall medical knowledge.

You'd have to look at outcomes of podiatrists and compare them to a similar patient population of FA orthopedic surgeons to see if there is a difference.

 

[hematosis]

4 years school + 5 years ortho res + FA fellowship > 4 years school + 3 years res

I think you might be confused here. Podiatrist do at least 7 years just on the FA with the possibility of fellowship. Orthopods do a 1 year fellowship on the FA. I understand that this might be a difficult math problem for you, but it is what it is.

I honestly don't understand why there is so many haters that hate on podiatry. Especially osteopaths, I figured they learned from being called MD rejects (which i do not think they are). Were on the same team here.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think you might be confused here. Podiatrist do at least 7 years just on the FA with the possibility of fellowship. Orthopods do a 1 year fellowship on the FA. I understand that this might be a difficult math problem for you, but it is what it is.

I honestly don't understand why there is so many haters that hate on podiatry. Especially osteopaths, I figured they learned from being called MD rejects (which i do not think they are). Were on the same team here.

We all understand that you're frustrated and that continually explaining/defending yourself to close minded individuals (not saying anyone on this board is that way ... I have other boards in mind ) is exhausting, but there is absolutely no reason to lower yourself and sling mud with them. All it does is make your arguments look weak and allows others to dismiss what you say.

There's no need for it. Stick to the facts and you'll do fine. DPMs are highly trained, and I'll refer to them for F/A 10 times out of 10 ... no doubt.

 

[hematosis]

We all understand that you're frustrated and that continually explaining/defending yourself to close minded individuals (not saying anyone on this board is that way ... I have other boards in mind ) is exhausting, but there is absolutely no reason to lower yourself and sling mud with them. All it does is make your arguments look weak and allows others to dismiss what you say.

There's no need for it. Stick to the facts and you'll do fine. DPMs are highly trained, and I'll refer to them for F/A 10 times out of 10 ... no doubt.

didn't mean to come off arrogant like that.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Ugh NO.... Podiatrist go to school for 4 years and have to do a 3 year mandatory residency, including 1 year rotations in family, em , internal, anaesthesia, infectious disease, psychiatry. The 2nd and 3rd year vary depending on the program. I believe you can become a dentist in minimum 3 years with no residency required (UOP). You would be out of your mind to give dentists a "unrestricted license."
The AOA and CMA realize this and that is why they are trying to go forward with this movement.

I'm speaking hypothetically here - not recommending that dentists get full scope.

Furthermore, I'm not necessarily "dissing' DPMs here. I understand they're well trained. The point I was trying to get to (which I guess I should have been more clear about) is that if MD/DO/DPM/whatever training is indeed so similar, then some sort of consolidation between these redundant branches would seem sensible and/or advisable.

PS: the nastiness/silliness in this thread frankly reminds me why I quit reading anything but the step 1 boards for the past few months.

 

[ToldYouSo]

While I'm sure kidsfeet and podfather would do a better job explaining this, I'll give it my best shot; no one is trained to do F&A surgery better then a podiatrist, no not even an orthopod, period. You'll find that in many hospitals the podiatrists are the ones teaching the orthopods doing F&A fellowships. Msmentor and taylormade, you're 11+ year > 9 year training argument assumes pods and orthopods are training for the same thing, which they aren't.

 

[MSmentor018]

Please elaborate. I'd like to know how a MD/DO is better trained on the FA than a podiatrist.
Also, at my school we sit through 98% of our classes with our fellow DO students.

we're not, DPM is a very detailed and unique specialty but that's also it's downfall in the political world. academically MD/DO is presented and taught with a much broader skill set. you may sit with us with the books just like PA's, NP's, PT's....etc., but the clinical application, which is what yrs 1-2 sets you up for, is very different. sure I'd come to you for my ankle pain but I wouldn't want you diagnosing my pneumonia or a fib

 

[JaggerPlate]

we're not, DPM is a very detailed and unique specialty but that's also it's downfall in the political world.

Couldn't agree more ... especially with the 'downfall in the political' portion. Additionally, I think the 'subspecialty within themselves' type of education (akin to DDS or OD training - specialized since day 1) hurts the cause of being recognized as a 'physician.'

Frankly, it's tough to say that DPMs are the most specialized, go to guys for the foot and ankle ... BUT they should also have an unrestricted P&S license. Most specialized, but also also should be licensed to be broad and general??? Don't need to be a medical professional to become confused by that.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I think the real problem is that LCME is currently only in the business of MDs, and that's all that they are supposedly allowed to be in the business of - so that's confusing people making them think that pod school's will start to hand out MDs. That will not happen. The point is merely for reimbursements, "prestige", and scope of practice. Some podiatrists run into problems treating their patients to the best of their ability based on the scope of the practice. There is much debate over what a pod can/should do in terms of diseases that effect the whole body, but are primarily manifested in the foot. A fair example is PAD (Peripheral Artery Disease). Should pods be treating this disease? It has to do with arteries and the heart, but it manifests itself in the foot. The podiatrist is trained to treat it, but can he prescribe medication that effects the circulatory system? These are the questions that would hopefully be put to rest by changing the scope of the pods.

 

[Makati2008]

I think you might be confused here. Podiatrist do at least 7 years just on the FA with the possibility of fellowship. Orthopods do a 1 year fellowship on the FA. I understand that this might be a difficult math problem for you, but it is what it is.

I honestly don't understand why there is so many haters that hate on podiatry. Especially osteopaths, I figured they learned from being called MD rejects (which i do not think they are). Were on the same team here.

Lol. That would be part of the problem why a lot of guys dislike pods. You kind of stoked the fire a tad when you make comments like that.
(PS-If I get called a MD reject it kind of rolls off my back and probably a ton of other guys that got accepted to both such as myself here on SDN now I DO get angry at people that assume that anyone that goes into FM is not bright or had subpar board scores.)

Please do me a favor and provide me some studies to prove MD/DO vs DPM outcome on foot and ankle surgery to support your earlier statements. I would love to see it with that statement above. I do agree pods do good work(actually GREAT foot work) but I am somewhat ignorant to what their education entails(I do refer to pods based on what I do know about them) similar to the PA profession.

Sorry typing on small keyboard on phone so if it appears like I am babbling that is why and probably with a ton of errors.

 

[hematosis]

Lol. That would be part of the problem why a lot of guys dislike pods. You kind of stoked the fire a tad when you make comments like that.
(PS-If I get called a MD reject it kind of rolls off my back and probably a ton of other guys that got accepted to both such as myself here on SDN now I DO get angry at people that assume that anyone that goes into FM is not bright or had subpar board scores.)

Please do me a favor and provide me some studies to prove MD/DO vs DPM outcome on foot and ankle surgery to support your earlier statements. I would love to see it with that statement above. I do agree pods do good work(actually GREAT foot work) but I am somewhat ignorant to what their education entails(I do refer to pods based on what I do know about them) similar to the PA profession.

Sorry typing on small keyboard on phone so if it appears like I am babbling that is why and probably with a ton of errors.

I do not think that DO's are MD rejects. I go to school with DO students and we take ALL the didactic courses that DO's take. It is just something that I hear them complain about. Similarly, Pod's also get the med school reject stereotype. I disagree with both, and i thought i made that pretty clear.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I do not think that DO's are MD rejects. I go to school with DO students and we take ALL the didactic courses that DO's take. It is just something that I hear them complain about. Similarly, Pod's also get the med school reject stereotype. I disagree with both, and i thought i made that pretty clear.

I go to school with some DO students too ... never heard them "complain" about it EVER. Hear them complain ... every day; never about this.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I do agree pods do good work(actually GREAT foot work) but I am somewhat ignorant to what their education entails(I do refer to pods based on what I do know about them) similar to the PA profession.

Pods go to podiatry school for four years - set up the exact same as DO and MD school. First two years of book work - basic sciences usually in the same class sitting next to DO and MD students. Then two years of clinical rotations.

Here's a really great link that summarizes the first four years: http://www.dmu.edu/pm/curriculum

Then there is a three year surgical residency that is required by all graduating podiatrists.

Here's the scope of a typical residency that is available at "Resurrection Health Care" :

PGY-1 Year

• Medical Imaging
• Pathology
• Internal Medicine/Endocrinology
• General Surgery
• Anesthesiology
• Wound Care
• Podiatric Medicine and Surgery

PGY-2

• Behavioral Science
• Orthopedics
• Emergency Room
• Wound Care
• Practice Management
• Podiatric Medicine and Surgery

PGY-3

• Orthopedics
• Wound Care
• Vascular Surgery (elective)
• Pain Management (elective)
• Podiatric Medicine and Surgery

As you can see, the scope is very wide!

 

[JaggerPlate]

As you can see, the scope is very wide!

Well, which is it? Are DPMs truly focused on the medical and surgical aspects of the F/A, ergo it is their territory and they should be the only ones to touch it and have a license that reflects this restriction? ORRRR are they trained in a more medical school like model, meaning they get the base knowledge, but then go on to specialize in the foot and ankle, in which case the base of general knowledge needed to enter F/A training should be open to all medical school graduates who will also have an unrestricted, "wide scope" license ... and DPMs shouldn't have exclusive rights to the foot and ankle??

In my book, it's one or the other, but I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people with the argument that "we are physicians who chose to restrict ourselves exclusively to one area of the body, ergo we deserve unrestricted licenses." Ummm, what?

Additionally, I have a tough time buying the argument that I hear over and over again in the Pod forums that all physicians are restricted by residency training to certain areas of the body/practice, because clearly there still exists a license difference and differences in pre-residency training (especially years 3 and 4).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Maxillo,

Also, do you have a more descriptive comparison of DPM years 3/4 and MD/DO years 3/4? To me, this seems to be where the biggest difference lies (though I even see some significant differences in the years 1 and 2 curriculum you posted as well).

 

[MSmentor018]

As you can see, the scope is very wide!

well not exactly....here's the des moines u link you posted:
D.P.M. third year clinical objectives:

• Develop basic clinical skills required to properly evaluate and manage the podiatric medical patient
• Draw upon information learned in the previous two years, satisfying a standard of clinical achievement developed by the faculty
• Complete your third-year clinical objectives after clinical faculty members observe you successfully interacting with patients and supervising the delivery of medical care

D.P.M. fourth year clinical objectives:

The fourth-year educational goals and objectives are designed to give you an opportunity to use and further develop cognitive and practical skills related to:

• Podiatric and general medicine
• Podiatric surgery
• Biomechanics/orthopedics
• Podiatric radiology
• A minimum of six months (24 weeks) of podiatric medical/surgical rotations.
• A four-month “core hospital rotation” during the 24 weeks. In essence, the core hospital is the hospital extension of the College of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery, designed to provide a similar clinical training experience for students at hospitals throughout the country.
• All fourth-year students participate in one month of podiatric private practice. You complete the remaining portion of the fourth year by participating in elective rotations.

I am pretty sure MD/DO rotations are much broader than that

 

[drctother]

well not exactly....here's the des moines u link you posted:
D.P.M. third year clinical objectives:

• Develop basic clinical skills required to properly evaluate and manage the podiatric medical patient
• Draw upon information learned in the previous two years, satisfying a standard of clinical achievement developed by the faculty
• Complete your third-year clinical objectives after clinical faculty members observe you successfully interacting with patients and supervising the delivery of medical care

D.P.M. fourth year clinical objectives:

The fourth-year educational goals and objectives are designed to give you an opportunity to use and further develop cognitive and practical skills related to:

• Podiatric and general medicine
• Podiatric surgery
• Biomechanics/orthopedics
• Podiatric radiology
• A minimum of six months (24 weeks) of podiatric medical/surgical rotations.
• A four-month “core hospital rotation” during the 24 weeks. In essence, the core hospital is the hospital extension of the College of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery, designed to provide a similar clinical training experience for students at hospitals throughout the country.
• All fourth-year students participate in one month of podiatric private practice. You complete the remaining portion of the fourth year by participating in elective rotations.

I am pretty sure MD/DO rotations are much broader than that

Amen to that. I am sure podiatrists are good at what they do best (feet), but I would in no way, shape, or form ever consider them anything close to physicians. Sorry.

Before we know it, nurses are also going to go around claiming they are doctors....than the lab technicians as well

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I am pretty sure MD/DO rotations are much broader than that

I was mostly referring to the residency aspect - but that's not the point I was trying to make. I apologize if by broad scope I was giving the impression it was congruent to a MD/DO scope - I wasn't trying to do that. In terms of "width of scope," I was trying to illustrate that the residencies do not solely focus on the foot and ankle, but rather a much broader scope than most people imagine. Most people have the notion that podiatrists are not trained on any part of the body other than the foot, for instance: Endocrinology or Neuroanatomy (both are areas podiatrists have training in). Is a podiatrist trained to deliver a baby, or do a rectal exam? No, because this will never be in the line of their work - but they are educated in the whole human body. I posted earlier on this thread about why the full-scope is important. Podiatrists realize they aren't trained to do a heart surgery - and no podiatrist in their right mind would use a "full scope license" to do something like that. It is merely for diseases like diabetes, PAD, and other disease that manifest themselves early/prominently in the foot but are related to the whole body. Should a podiatrist be prescribing peripheral artery disease medication, or because that effects the circulatory system, it needs to be left to an MD/DO?