Podiatry at Touro

[ryex]

I just received a letter from Touro University, it stated that Touro is considering establishing a School of Podiatric Medicine/M.P.H.. Anyone have any ideas on this subject, along with the Arizona School (I think it was AZ). With all the talk of the sad state of podiatry, why all the interest in starting new Schools?

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[drmoon]

It's a big mystery to me.

The only thing I can think of is that they figure that CCPM (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) is going into the tank leaving the entire Western U.S. wide open. But, if you consider that only about 300 people in the entire world are considering being a podiatrist, it still doesn't make much sense.

Just know that they are all, entirely for-profit and they do not give one @%$t about you or your education.

 

[the message]

Does anybody think that podiatric enrollment can make a rebound?

 

[efs]

If you look at the history you will see that is has been cyclical. There have been prior decreases in enrollment with subsequent increases. I urge you to look into the history. Take a look at what else has been happening in health care at these times. Come up with your own opinions rather than relying on what you might read on the forums. Posts on forums come from a relative minority of the total population and do not provide a realistic view of what is actually happening. (How many of the negative posters are encouraging you to do your own research?).

Yes, I believe that the enrollments wil make a rebound. I base this on my analysis of the history. A similar phenomenon can be seen in the nursing field, which exhibits it in a much greater degree.

If you agree with my analysis then this would be an opportune time to be entering the field. It would get you in on the downswing of an upward growth. Of course, this is subject to debate. I would urge that you do your own thurough analysis.

With the opening of a new school, I cannot imagine that this was done on a whim. I think that they considered this situation carefully before coming to a decision to open a new school. I think they must have has some research to back this decision.

 

[drmoon]

OK, Eric.

PLEASE do your research!!!!!!

I'm not sure what efs is referring to when he speaks of podiatry school being cyclical. Admissions have been relatively high for as long as it's been around. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it's been growing steadily since the early 70's. It only started declining in the 90's.

To be sure, all health care colleges went through a decline in the 90's, but podiatry had the largest decrease relative to the other schools. The statistics are roughly a 15% decrease in allopathic schools in the decade of the 90's vs. over a 30% decrease for podiatry schools. Even the Dean at the Temple school considers it a crisis and unprecedented in the history of podiatry. He's one of a handful who has the cojones to speak his mind. If you want to see some excerpts of what he said, I think it's on <a href="http://www.podiatryforum.com" target="_blank">www.podiatryforum.com</a> (about a month ago or so).

 

[efs]

drmoon,

The it that I was refering to was the podiatric enrollment asked about in the previous post. I didn't think that should be such a cause for confusion.

To a point, I think it is hilarious that you think I am just making things up. On the other hand, it seems like you really do think that students don't know how to do that. I did do my research. I have spent more than a few minutes out of the past couple years doing some reading and research. I am capable of thought and analysis. You just may not agree with what I come up with.

Enrollment at all schools dropped from 1600 in 1952 to less than 500 in 1960. And from 476 graduates in 1952 to ONLY 112 in 1960. (Yes that is from ALL schools.) From JAPA Vol 64: 288, 1974. There was a similar decrease in the numbers during the 40's which I would attribute to WW II rather than the schools or the profession. (This along with other statistics I have read lead me to believe that this is cyclical, and will likely rebound.)

Yes the schools do look at money. Without it they cannot keep their doors open, but the people involved are not looking at it solely as a way to part students from money. A new school does not just open because they think they can make money. The people who put their time and effort into a venture such as that will take the time to think about it. In the 1970's there were feasability studies done in the South and attempts were made to open a school in Texas. This ended up not happening because of the politics involved. (JAPA Vol 69: 274, 1979) and more in (JAPMA Vol 77: 409, 1987). I haven't seen anything about it in writing, but I would have to believe that the people opening the new school have considered the issues. The problems faced by CCPM may have a role in their decisions, but that would only be speculation on our part. The fact is that AZ would also draw from the surrounding states, none of which have a podiatry school.

I am not sure where your statistics came from, nor am I convinced that they mean anything. As far as this being a "crisis and unprecedented in the history of podiatry", well see the above again. There is precedence. Some people thought it was a crisis then too.

 

[sandj9397]

how many schools and seats were there in the fifties and sixties? I doubt as many as there are now. Plus, what were the changes going on in the healthcare industry back then that allowed those drops in the fifties and rebounds in the seventies and eighties. Just because the numbers rose in the past is no predictor to future success since there are too many external variablres to consider. Modern healthcare is a different animal

 

[efs]

Good questions. I don't have any numbers in front of me right now, so I may not have accurate answers. As DMU (or UOMHS) and Barry did not exist at the time it would have been 5 schools. There have been other schools that exsisted previously and did not continue, but I believe these were the only schools at the time. I have no numbers as to the seats avaiable, but since the numbers decreased I would think that the seats were there.

You are right that simply because the numbers rose in the past that they might not do so again.

My point was more along the lines that the numbers have decreased before and have subsequently risen. I believe this cycle is likely to be repeated. Because they are decreasing now does not neccesarily mean that it is the end of this profession. This has happened before and the numbers came back up. This is likely to happen again. So althought the numbers are decreasing it does not mean the end of the profession. The same cyclical changes can be seen in the nursing field. It has happened over and over and will likely happen again in the future. It is not a cause to call for an end to the field.

 

[drmoon]

Eric.

Don't take my comments personally. I'm just challenging your information. I'm sure you realize that a lot of people who post their opinions on these forums do so purely from personal feelings and hearsay rather than from studies and first hand experience.

Those were interesting statisitcs that you offered and should be considered.

Modern podiatry (surgery) really didn't begin until the mid-60's or so. I think meaningful insurance reimbursements didn't kick in until the 70's. My information is anectodal taken from conversations I've had with many DPM's over the years. Therefore, I can't verify any of it.

It would be interesting to see how the class sizes (after correcting for extraneous factors) have fluctuated since, let's say, 1970. The pervasive talk at CCPM in the 90's was how much money pods were making in the 70's and 80's (before HMO controls) and how the income significantly dried up beginning in the 90's. Again, only anectodal.

I think what would be important to know is WHY the applications have dropped so dramatically in the past 10 years. And, to see if applications, as a whole (from MD/DO/DPM) will rise in unison sometime in the future. I know that part of the reason is the tech boom and the money that was being made in the computer industry. I believe that a lot of otherwise good candidates for medical school were instead pursuing careers in the tech field (just what I've read). Also, doctor's don't make as much as they used to and are more beholden to the insurance companies. This has made them kind of sour and they probably don't reccomend medicine to prospective apps like they used to. Now that the tech world has imploded more or less, it will be interesting to see if their will be an upswing in admissions.

Let's just hope it's AFTER I apply!

I really appreciate the time you took to research and post the info. That's exactly how someone should engage in debate and you should be commended.

 

[acurarte]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by ryex:
•I just received a letter from Touro University, it stated that Touro is considering establishing a School of Podiatric Medicine/M.P.H.. Anyone have any ideas on this subject, along with the Arizona School (I think it was AZ). With all the talk of the sad state of podiatry, why all the interest in starting new Schools?•••••It is true that Midwestern University (AZCOM) seriously entertained the idea of taking over a podiatric medical school about a year and a half or two years ago. However, the debt ratio of the school which I believe was in San Francisco was far to extensive. That is how it was explained to the AZCOM students anyhow.

 

[Popoy]

First of all being from California.... TUCOM keeps advertising itself as being a school in SF, but it's not.... it's in Vallejo which is about 30min-1hr (depending on traffic) away from SF....

Secondly, not to hound on TUCOM, but TUCOM hasn't establish itself as a strong COMS school let alone start a CPM school.... TUCOM graduated it's first class about a year ago when I applied for medical school....

Kind of a scary thought, but I'm sure the administrators know what they're doing and if they feel they can do it.... then more power to them.... Good luck to Touro....

 

[eltray]

You guys don't know what you're talking about. Touro is not stupid enough to start a new podiatry school. The remnants of what used to be CCPM (considered to be the top podiatry school not too long ago) is now located in a few trailers on the TUCOM campus. CCPM went bankrupt and TUCOM decided to rent a few trailers to them. The feet people do not share any classes with the medical students. The programs that Touro is trying to start is PT, OT, PA, and MPH. Touro University is based in New York and they have several schools there include a law school, MBA, Undergrad, etc. So, I wouldn't call TUCOM entirely new. What is scary is a CA resident going to DMU over TUCOM, COMP, AZCOM, etc. Maybe you didn't have a choice. While DMU may have history, it certainly does not have superior match lists, teaching, or matriculants when compared to the three West Coast schools. More power to you.

 

[wsu]

EFS,

Being in the nursing profession and doing extensive research on enrollment trends, your information is incorrect.

You can find the data in the American Assocaiton Colleges of Nursing.

The data suggests that enrollment athough stabilzied continues to be no where near the enrollment patterns indicitivaive of the past due to many reasons. It is not cyclical by no means right now. In the past, the nursing profession has not had cyclical events that were significant. Just variations.

There have been many committees trying to explain why enrollment has not gone up. But mainly the factors revolve around greater opporunities for women in the workforce, perception, and others that I will not mention.

 

[efs]

wsu,

My comments about the cyclic enrollments were more directed towards the podiatry side. My thoughts on nursing are not grounded in looking at any research. At this point I don't have the interest or time to look into that side of it (as far as doing any research).

I have been a nurse since 1990, and have seen off and on various times when there has been a "crisis" in nursing. Every few years this issue is brought into the light, and then seems to go away for a while. There certainly is a great need for nurses, and I think it will always be a stable career option. Howeveer, every few years it comes up that there is a "crisis" that there are not enough nurses. Following this, I have seen a renewed interest in the field. Then the subject sort of disappears for a while. Same thing happens a few years latter. I haven't looked at the actual enrollment trends or numbers so I cannot comment much further than that.

The fact that there has been a cyclical trend in podiatry I have looked into, and that was what I was hoping to bring across. I suspect that the trends in other fields are similar, as evidenced by the periodic "crisis in nursing".

I would be interested to see what the numbers actually look like, but as I mentioned, don't have the time or inclination to dig them up myself.

Thanks.

 

[wsu]

Eric,

Okay. Good luck in podiatry.