janV88

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2007 MGMA Physician Compensation and Production Survery

http://storefiles.mgma.com/7032 sample.pdf

From glancing at the data, it looks like Podiatry (General) falls somewhere in the middle. Surgical Podiatry, on the other hand, looks above average...but still no where close to ortho.

What are your thoughts?
 
Aug 26, 2010
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I removed a paragraph since it was inaccurate.

One of the issues that we have in our state is that Podiatrists can't have PAs, whereas Orthos can. With that stipulation, an Ortho's schedule can be jam packed with patients that can be "treated" by a PA under "supervision" and the Ortho can focus on much higher paying visits. A post op visit usually doesn't pay during the global period, so many Orthos have their staff manage these visits, while they are seeing new patients or pre-op visits, which actually do pay, and pay well.

Also, some Ortho procedures pay an extreme amount when compared to foot and ankle procedures. Even the more common Ortho foot and ankle trauma cases pay much more than what the average Podiatrist sees in the OR on a regular basis. Not too many Orthos in my area are doing bunions, hammertoes, charcot recons, tendon repairs, Brachymet correction, Subtalar Arthroeresis...etc . Most are very busy with trauma.

Orthos also don't do a lot of what makes our profession unique. They generally shy away from performing palliative care, wound care, amputations, ingrown toenails, neuromas and a myriad of other treatments we provide on a daily basis to our patients. I chose to be a Podiatrist, not an Orthopedic Surgeon.

I am not very concerned with what other medical professionals make. I am more concerned with whether I'm getting paid for the work I do. That in and of itself is not an easy thing to do in some situations. As was eluded to in another thread, it doesn't seem like other professionals get paid more for performing the exact same procedure as we do, and if indeed that is the case, we need to mount an effort to PROVE it legally so we can fight it. In my state an attempt was made to do just that, but the group that tried it was counter sued for anti-trust/collusion and the case was dropped. This is only the story I heard and can not confirm whether this was just a fairy tale or if it actually happened, so who knows.
 
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janV88

janV88

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It says up top "Collections for Professional Charges". I interpreted this as collections but only doctor's fees not facility fees.

And I thought I read on here that trauma cases are usually unsinsured?
 
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It says up top "Collections for Professional Charges". I interpreted this as collections but only doctor's fees not facility fees.

And I thought I read on here that trauma cases are usually unsinsured?
You are correct. I can't believe how badly I misread the title. Long couple of days, sorry. I will delete the first paragraph as it doesn't really apply.
 
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janV88

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Anyone else have any opinions?

Everyone always talks about Podiatry not making as much as MD/DO specialists. The data above shows otherwise. I just wanted to see what the attendings on here thought.
 

PADPM

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Please don't take this post as rude, but I really don't understand the obsession students have with "income". At this point in time you have made the decision to become a DPM, and you presently have no control on your future income.

Whether the "average"/"median"/"mean" or whatever number you want to use is $10,000 or $500,000, how does that impact you at the present time?

It reminds me of when patients survery OTHER patients to see how their surgery turned out, if they had pain, if they had no pain, etc. The OTHER patient's outcome has NO impact on his/her surgical outcome. If other patient had tremendous post op pain, doesn't mean this patient will or vice versa.

Similarly, if the "average" DPM is making X amount of dollars, you can make 1/2X or 10X.

I know DPM's who can barely make poverty level income, and I know DPM's who make millions. There are no guarantees when you graduate.

I know an orthopedic surgeon who graduated a very prestigious medical school, trained at a very prestigious orthopedic residency, did a foot/ankle fellowship with Mark Myerson, MD in Baltimore and could not make enough money in private practice to make a living and is NO LONGER practicing medicine!!!

I've said it over and over and over again. At this point I would highly recommend all students stop obsessing about income at this point in your training. You have absolutely no control of what's going to happen several years down the line. Work hard, study hard, practice honestly and ethically and I assure you that you will have the ability to make a better than average income.

In the interim, you can drive yourself crazy with "statistics" which in reality mean nothing to you.

Please take a moment to read the "sticky" on this message board I wrote quite a while ago called "my comments about DPM income" (or something like that).
 
D

dyk343

Please don't take this post as rude, but I really don't understand the obsession students have with "income". At this point in time you have made the decision to become a DPM, and you presently have no control on your future income.

Whether the "average"/"median"/"mean" or whatever number you want to use is $10,000 or $500,000, how does that impact you at the present time?

It reminds me of when patients survery OTHER patients to see how their surgery turned out, if they had pain, if they had no pain, etc. The OTHER patient's outcome has NO impact on his/her surgical outcome. If other patient had tremendous post op pain, doesn't mean this patient will or vice versa.

Similarly, if the "average" DPM is making X amount of dollars, you can make 1/2X or 10X.

I know DPM's who can barely make poverty level income, and I know DPM's who make millions. There are no guarantees when you graduate.

I know an orthopedic surgeon who graduated a very prestigious medical school, trained at a very prestigious orthopedic residency, did a foot/ankle fellowship with Mark Myerson, MD in Baltimore and could not make enough money in private practice to make a living and is NO LONGER practicing medicine!!!

I've said it over and over and over again. At this point I would highly recommend all students stop obsessing about income at this point in your training. You have absolutely no control of what's going to happen several years down the line. Work hard, study hard, practice honestly and ethically and I assure you that you will have the ability to make a better than average income.

In the interim, you can drive yourself crazy with "statistics" which in reality mean nothing to you.

Please take a moment to read the "sticky" on this message board I wrote quite a while ago called "my comments about DPM income" (or something like that).
I respectfully disagree. If someone is looking at 200K and 7 years of their youth they should be concerned with the payouts at the end. If there was a job at the end of the line paying 30K I wouldnt do it... I (you) cant blame students for wanting to know what to expect.

..Or am I crazy???
 
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..Or am I crazy???
Get through school, finish your residency and look for the best opportunity you can. If that means that you will get a lot of money, more power to you, but to expect a huge payout right away discounts all the other factors involved in making the right practice decision for you upon graduation from your residency.

Crazy? No. Unrealistic, perhaps.
 

Podfather

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I respectfully disagree. If someone is looking at 200K and 7 years of their youth they should be concerned with the payouts at the end. If there was a job at the end of the line paying 30K I wouldnt do it... I (you) cant blame students for wanting to know what to expect.

..Or am I crazy???
First of all PADPM makes a great point. Once you have done the homework (hopefully), applied, and decide on Podiatric Medical School I would recommend your focus be on working to succeed. This whole discussion is moot. Every medical profession has people who do poorly and those who excel. Unlike PADPM most of the DPMs I know who have practiced over 5 years are making well over 200,000 and my circle (some driven people) are much higher (350-500K and higher).

Overall PADPM's point that to be in the upper area of income you will be working hard is spot on. And I have had residents who focus so much on fiscal success that they forget to learn their profession.

If money is your goal I would suggest that most high rollers are not in any medical field. To make everyone relax, I will state that if you study hard in school, stay grounded, stay humble, work your tail off in residency, and treat your patients right, your loans will not be an issue and your lifestyle will be good. My only negative statement is that if your ego can not handle the second class citizen implications (I suffer from this weakness from time to time) then the profession can be a source of stress.

Happy Holidays!
 

PADPM

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Podfather,

Your post was worded "funny". When I first read it, I had to do a re-take. You wrote "Unlike PADPM most of the DPMs I know who have practiced over 5 years are making well over 200,000 and my circle (some driven people) are much higher (350-500K and higher)."

I was wondering "how does Podfather know what I make?", since it "seemed" as if you were saying that unlike ME (PADPM), most doctors you know who have practiced over 5 years are making over $200,000, etc.

I understand what you are ACTUALLY saying. You are referring to comments that I made that I know many doctors in my area who have practiced greater than 5 years who are not making that kind of money, and THAT'S why you said "unlike PADPM.......etc."

I have to admit, I did laugh at first until I read it twice:idea:

dyk343,

I think you may have missed my point. I never stated you should have no concerns about your future income. Hopefullly, you should have performed your "due diligence" prior to entering the profession. However, gathering numbers and statistics and driving yourself crazy now is of no significance. Someone else's success or failure, i.e. high or low income has absolutely no bearing on YOU in the future.

There is no telling what will happen a few years down the line, and you are still a student, hence my recommendation to simply control the present situation, not worry about something now that you can't control.

That's also why I recommended you read the "sticky" regarding my comments about DPM income.

I'm very seasoned, Podfather is at least as seasoned and Kidsfeet has been in practice for quite a few years and we're all recommending the same thing. So maybe, just maybe you should consider our words of wisdom.
 
D

dyk343

I just saw that the person who wrote the original salary question is in podiatry school already. I thought it was just someone online doing research. However... I just opened the mail and got a 12K bill due by the first of the year. Opening these kinds of letters can definitely make a student think about payouts.
 

Podfather

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Podfather,

Your post was worded "funny". When I first read it, I had to do a re-take. You wrote "Unlike PADPM most of the DPMs I know who have practiced over 5 years are making well over 200,000 and my circle (some driven people) are much higher (350-500K and higher)."

I was wondering "how does Podfather know what I make?", since it "seemed" as if you were saying that unlike ME (PADPM), most doctors you know who have practiced over 5 years are making over $200,000, etc.

I understand what you are ACTUALLY saying. You are referring to comments that I made that I know many doctors in my area who have practiced greater than 5 years who are not making that kind of money, and THAT'S why you said "unlike PADPM.......etc."

I have to admit, I did laugh at first until I read it twice:idea:


:laugh: Oops. I should have paid attenion in English class LOL

dyk343,

I think you may have missed my point. I never stated you should have no concerns about your future income. Hopefullly, you should have performed your "due diligence" prior to entering the profession. However, gathering numbers and statistics and driving yourself crazy now is of no significance. Someone else's success or failure, i.e. high or low income has absolutely no bearing on YOU in the future.

There is no telling what will happen a few years down the line, and you are still a student, hence my recommendation to simply control the present situation, not worry about something now that you can't control.

That's also why I recommended you read the "sticky" regarding my comments about DPM income.

I'm very seasoned, Podfather is at least as seasoned and Kidsfeet has been in practice for quite a few years and we're all recommending the same thing. So maybe, just maybe you should consider our words of wisdom.
o
 

PADPM

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Podfather,

At least we both got a good laugh at that one!

Actually, I was thinking about both of our comments regarding the incomes of our colleagues and my comments in the past about a lot of my colleagues who have been in practice for over 5 years making a specific amount of money and your comments regarding the big hitters and other docs making significant "bucks", etc.

But in reality, do either one of us really have any idea what our colleagues are making? I'm very close to some friends who practice in my area and some former residents, and we have never really discussed our income, nor would I be comfortable discussing my income or asking about their income.

We can make "assumptions", "presumptions", etc., based on size of practice, number of surgical cases, number of lectures on the lecture circuit, etc., but we really don't know the actual income. Additionally, you never know the actual stream of income, and whether it's family money, the wife's income, inherited money, etc.

There is a local DPM who I "presumed" had a very healthy income. He lives in a neighboring community in a big home. Ironically, we apparently share the same landscaper. My landscaper knows what I do for a living and asked if I knew Dr. X and I said "yes". He told me the guy was a "dirtball" and he had to threaten him physically since the guy hadn't paid his bill for 6 months (going back to snow removal) and the Doc pleaded that business was horrible and he wasn't making enough money to pay the bills.

A few months later I went to a car dealer where I lease some of my cars and deal with the same person. When I was leaving, I happened to see this same doctor and spoke for a few moments. A week later when I took delivery of my car, I happened to ask the salesperson if Dr. X leased or purchased a car and the salesperson said that Dr. X had such bad credit and no ability to even leave a down payment that he couldn't get approved for even the weakest loan or car (I know, the person should not have given me any of this information).

I was shocked, since if you asked me I would have thought this guy made some big bucks. Yes, I know he still may make big bucks and may have overspent, etc., etc., but the point is that I've known many people, not exclusive to doctors who have lived beyond their means or exaggerated their incomes, and unless we have seen their tax returns, we really don't know what they make, nor do I personally care.

As long as I'm working hard and providing for my family, and no one is stealing from me, I'm a happy camper.
 

Podfather

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Podfather,

At least we both got a good laugh at that one!

Actually, I was thinking about both of our comments regarding the incomes of our colleagues and my comments in the past about a lot of my colleagues who have been in practice for over 5 years making a specific amount of money and your comments regarding the big hitters and other docs making significant "bucks", etc.

But in reality, do either one of us really have any idea what our colleagues are making? I'm very close to some friends who practice in my area and some former residents, and we have never really discussed our income, nor would I be comfortable discussing my income or asking about their income.

We can make "assumptions", "presumptions", etc., based on size of practice, number of surgical cases, number of lectures on the lecture circuit, etc., but we really don't know the actual income. Additionally, you never know the actual stream of income, and whether it's family money, the wife's income, inherited money, etc.

There is a local DPM who I "presumed" had a very healthy income. He lives in a neighboring community in a big home. Ironically, we apparently share the same landscaper. My landscaper knows what I do for a living and asked if I knew Dr. X and I said "yes". He told me the guy was a "dirtball" and he had to threaten him physically since the guy hadn't paid his bill for 6 months (going back to snow removal) and the Doc pleaded that business was horrible and he wasn't making enough money to pay the bills.

A few months later I went to a car dealer where I lease some of my cars and deal with the same person. When I was leaving, I happened to see this same doctor and spoke for a few moments. A week later when I took delivery of my car, I happened to ask the salesperson if Dr. X leased or purchased a car and the salesperson said that Dr. X had such bad credit and no ability to even leave a down payment that he couldn't get approved for even the weakest loan or car (I know, the person should not have given me any of this information).

I was shocked, since if you asked me I would have thought this guy made some big bucks. Yes, I know he still may make big bucks and may have overspent, etc., etc., but the point is that I've known many people, not exclusive to doctors who have lived beyond their means or exaggerated their incomes, and unless we have seen their tax returns, we really don't know what they make, nor do I personally care.

As long as I'm working hard and providing for my family, and no one is stealing from me, I'm a happy camper.
You are correct that often people embellish. I remember years ago always returning home from CME meetings depressed because everyone seemed busier and making more money than me. Later I would find out that some were spinning tales. In my case I do know what many of my ex-residents make since they often ask me to take a look at their contracts even years after graduation. In addition I have some close friends who I see more than my family sometimes, because of my involvement in the profession, who share the good and bad professionally with me. Also you know that I have some people who as close as you can get in the profession and know their situation very well. So yes strangers or classmates at meetings should be taken with a grain of salt but I do know with certainty what some DPMS make.
 
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janV88

janV88

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Please don't take this post as rude, but I really don't understand the obsession students have with "income". At this point in time you have made the decision to become a DPM, and you presently have no control on your future income.

Whether the "average"/"median"/"mean" or whatever number you want to use is $10,000 or $500,000, how does that impact you at the present time?

It reminds me of when patients survery OTHER patients to see how their surgery turned out, if they had pain, if they had no pain, etc. The OTHER patient's outcome has NO impact on his/her surgical outcome. If other patient had tremendous post op pain, doesn't mean this patient will or vice versa.

Similarly, if the "average" DPM is making X amount of dollars, you can make 1/2X or 10X.

I know DPM's who can barely make poverty level income, and I know DPM's who make millions. There are no guarantees when you graduate.

I know an orthopedic surgeon who graduated a very prestigious medical school, trained at a very prestigious orthopedic residency, did a foot/ankle fellowship with Mark Myerson, MD in Baltimore and could not make enough money in private practice to make a living and is NO LONGER practicing medicine!!!

I've said it over and over and over again. At this point I would highly recommend all students stop obsessing about income at this point in your training. You have absolutely no control of what's going to happen several years down the line. Work hard, study hard, practice honestly and ethically and I assure you that you will have the ability to make a better than average income.

In the interim, you can drive yourself crazy with "statistics" which in reality mean nothing to you.

Please take a moment to read the "sticky" on this message board I wrote quite a while ago called "my comments about DPM income" (or something like that).

I agree with you that there are no guarantees and that the average or median means nothing in terms of my future income. I did not mean for this to become another salary question. I just finished my last exams before winter break and found this file on my computer while I was organizing. I thought a discussion on collections would compliment the other thread on "How are Podiatrists compensated?" I guess I should have started off with more specific question than "please discuss".
 

PADPM

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You are correct that often people embellish. I remember years ago always returning home from CME meetings depressed because everyone seemed busier and making more money than me.
This statement couldn't be more accurate. Although I speak of the success of our practice on this site, I am "anonymous" and simply discuss our success so students and residents will know that those who work hard and have integrity do have the ability to be successful in the future.

However, in "real life" I do not discuss with any of my peers or competitors how busy our office is or the fact that we are probably the busiest practice in the region, and my partners also are very humble about those facts. So when I'm at meetings, I also listen to all those colleagues brag about how many patients they are treating, how many surgeries they are performing and how much money they are making.

But it's always funny when a pharmaceutical rep, orthopedic sales rep, etc., comes into our office and tells us that it's nice to see an office that's very busy since the rep was recently in Dr. X, Y and Z's office and those offices are always empty! It's also funny when I go to the hospital and the O.R. nurses tell me that they haven't seen Dr. X, Y or Z in months, though those docs are always bragging about the fact that they perform 10 surgical cases a week!

Then I go to a seminar and walk around the displays, and a rep will point to her colleague and some other docs and say, "you should see HIS office and how busy THESE guys are". And a lot of my colleagues are surprised because my partners and I NEVER discuss our "success" in public.

There's something to say for humility. I have nothing to prove, nor does anyone care about my success. Once again, the only reason it's discussed on this site is for those in training to understand that hard work can result in rewards.
 
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What I always wonder is why residents who are about to graduate only ask about financial compensation.

They rarely ask about benefits packages and what the practice will cover for them as a new employee. Are hospital dues covered? APMA and other professional organization dues? Any personal benefits? Malpractice? Health, dental for you AND your family? If they have to drive all over the place, is there a fuel or vehicle allowance? (Remember the more you are in your car, the less time in the day to actually see patients which will affect your bottom line. Is that taken into consideration?) Disability? Cell Phone/Pager? Clothing allowance/Lab Coats? Dry Cleaning Allowance? Is the practice going to help you pay your student loans or work out a way to deduct this from your paycheck in pre-tax dollars? Is the practice going to cover any moving expenses so you can actually get to your new job? Do they have enough income to help you with financing a new house perhaps? Are they going to front you some of your salary so you can get started in your new location with the stipulation that if you leave in x amount of time, you will return this money? The questions are virtually limitless. Some of these questions may seem a little much, but I know of some practices that do in fact cover these things but only IF you ask. The worst you can be told is no.

A large salary can quickly dwindle to very little if some of these things are not covered or none of these things are covered for that matter. Especially if you have to cover these things with post tax dollars. Even though you can claim these on your taxes as business expenses, you may only be able to cap that deduction to a certain amount.

As I've mentioned in other posts, money is not the only consideration as a graduating resident imho. Be smart, do your homework, but also realize that you may have to sacrifice certain things to get where you want to be down the road.
 
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jonwill

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What I always wonder is why residents who are about to graduate only ask about financial compensation.

They rarely ask about benefits packages and what the practice will cover for them as a new employee. Are hospital dues covered? APMA and other professional organization dues? Any personal benefits? Malpractice? Health, dental for you AND your family? If they have to drive all over the place, is there a fuel or vehicle allowance? (Remember the more you are in your car, the less time in the day to actually see patients which will affect your bottom line. Is that taken into consideration?) Disability? Cell Phone/Pager? Clothing allowance/Lab Coats? Dry Cleaning Allowance? Is the practice going to help you pay your student loans or work out a way to deduct this from your paycheck in pre-tax dollars? Is the practice going to cover any moving expenses so you can actually get to your new job? Do they have enough income to help you with financing a new house perhaps? Are they going to front you some of your salary so you can get started in your new location with the stipulation that if you leave in x amount of time, you will return this money? The questions are virtually limitless. Some of these questions may seem a little much, but I know of some practices that do in fact cover these things but only IF you ask. The worst you can be told is no.

A large salary can quickly dwindle to very little if some of these things are not covered or none of these things are covered for that matter. Especially if you have to cover these things with post tax dollars. Even though you can claim these on your taxes as business expenses, you may only be able to cap that deduction to a certain amount.

As I've mentioned in other posts, money is not the only consideration as a graduating resident imho. Be smart, do your homework, but also realize that you may have to sacrifice certain things to get where you want to be down the road.
It is very true. Having my health insurance, malpractice, disability, APMA, and ACFAS dues paid amounts to thousands of dollars a year.