podiatry student advice please

[NAVYLABTECH08]

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Hi gang,

My little brother has placed me in a weird position. I have no idea what to tell him so I am turing to you all. First off, he is a 25 yo student with a 3.4 GPA. Here's the problem, he can only get a 22 on his mcat. He took it 3 times and will not retake. He wants to do primary care but can't get into a DO school. He found something about NOVA DPM/DO option. He wants to apply to pod school and if he gets in, complete the requirements that lead to the advanced DO degree. He is willing to do the 4 years POD school + 1 residency + 3 Med School +what ever residency to achieve this goal. He asked me this...


Should I go to MUA, a caribbean school that does not factor the mcat score in, but has a higher attrition rate and no school based loans (important) OR go DPM-->DO?

 

[dyk343]

here is a thread that was started awhile ago regarding the DPM/DO NOVA program

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

Thanks!

This debate seems a little bit off of my question. I was not asking the validity of the DO degree to benefit the DPM practice...but rather this rather long option in order to be a fully fledged D.O. He understands that there will be 4 yr pod school +1 yr pos surgical residency +3 yrs med school +1 yr med school intern +3 yrs of med residency (12 yrs total). Is the 12 yrs more beneficial:

- Stay in US
-CAn practice in all 50 states
-US Loans

OR a caribbean school like MUA or St. Matthews U where: (7 yrs only..but! )

-5 semesters on a rock (3rd world like conditions and spouse can not work)
-limited practice opportunities (No CAli approval)
-NO loans except really high private loans

 

[air bud]

sounds like he should study a little harder for the MCAT

 

[dyk343]

sounds like he should study a little harder for the MCAT

👍

 

[hyperpodia]

IMHO it is a mistake to go to Pod school if your desire it to do Primary Care
I would just go to the caribbean instead. I believe the Nova program does not lead to a Primary care residency.
However why not just do Podiatry like the rest of us?

I know some who started Pod school for 1yr then stopped and went to DO school to start all over fresh.
What about trying those post bac programs that improve your chances to Med school?

 

[janV88]

4 yr pod school +1 yr pos surgical residency +3 yrs med school +1 yr med school intern +3 yrs of med residency (12 yrs total)

Actually its 3yrs pod residency. So 14 years total. 7 more years extra...why not use this time to study harder for the MCAT?

BTW has your brother even tried to apply to DO? Maybe its worth a shot if his MCAT breakdown is pretty even.

Why doesn't he apply to the "big 4" caribbean?

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

Why doesn't he apply to the "big 4" caribbean?

The "big 4" carribean schools are actually quite competitive, the average pod doesn't stand a chance at acceptance. Check out their stats, its pretty impressive.

 

[Marry2Pod]

I would agree, if your brother wants to do primary care than a Caribbean medical school is an option. Just one thing though - According to ECFMG, a little less than 50% of IMGs (which includes Caribbean medical students) get into residency as compared to a much higher percentage for US medical graduates. There is a huge preference for US medical graduates, so as a Caribbean student, he would really have to do very well on his USMLEs to make himself competitive for residency and not sit out for a year or two or so.

As for the dual DO/DMP program, it could be an option, but I thought the DO residency is 1 year and therefore someone who graduates from that program can only practice osteopathic medicine in states that allow you to practice with a 1 year residency? I could have sworn I read that when I looked into the program - If so, my next question would be, which states are those? And what if the laws in those states change? Just a thought.

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

Actually its 3yrs pod residency. So 14 years total. 7 more years extra...why not use this time to study harder for the MCAT?

BTW has your brother even tried to apply to DO? Maybe its worth a shot if his MCAT breakdown is pretty even.

Why doesn't he apply to the "big 4" caribbean?

I went to NOVA's website and it states a 1 year surigical residency, not 3.

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

The "big 4" carribean schools are actually quite competitive, the average pod doesn't stand a chance at acceptance. Check out their stats, its pretty impressive.

Big 3-4 CAribbean schools will not accept you without at least a 24 (8-8-8) according to phonecalls he has made. Schools like ROSS have cut their class sizes in half becasue they are up for review by the CAli review team and want the best applicants to be presented. Again, retaking the MCAT for the forth time seems unlikely to yield a 24 or greater. Here is my concern:

1. MCAT DO scores average around 26. POD schools average around 22-24 depending on which school. CAribbean big 4 average around 24. He is right at the average for POD, which in my mind triggers the belief that he can pass the boards. He is below average for CAribbean big 4 which means he may or may not pass boards. No boards from caribbean + high debt means my financial problem. Same for DO straight admission. If he goes through POD school and residency, he is a licensed Podiatrist and will at least have a option for paying that debt if he can't pass his DO boards.

Thanks for all your replys!

P.S: He has shadowed a podiatrist and has no problem being a podiatrist, but he wants to exhaust the medical option first.

 

[janV88]

The "big 4" carribean schools are actually quite competitive, the average pod doesn't stand a chance at acceptance. Check out their stats, its pretty impressive.

My point was, why not even try?

If they do have that 24 MCAT minimum though then theres no point trying.

I went to NOVA's website and it states a 1 year surigical residency, not 3.

It probably says atleast 1 year but all Pod residencies are 3 years starting next year.

You might also want to call NOVA and make sure that it's possible to do a residency after the 1 yr intern. I don't see why it's not possible but the website makes it seem like it's not.

EDIT:
I checked out the NOVA website. It says...

"YEAR I
Residencies
Podiatric Surgery and Medical Residency (PMS-24)
or
Podiatric Surgery and Medical Residency (PMS-36)"

So you must complete a PMS-24 or PMS-36 residency which will both be 3 years in length starting next year.

 

[Sig Savant]

When was the time limit given stating that all Pod residencies will be three years starting next year?

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

My point was, why not even try?

So you must complete a PMS-24 or PMS-36 residency which will both be 3 years in length starting next year.

Thank you all for your input as I get a better grip on this situation. I just want to clasify to Jan that the requirements state "currently enrolled", not must be completed for PMS-24 or PMS-36. I called the school today, but I only got voicemail. It makes sense to have completed the 24 or 36, but the website's wording is a bit confusing. But, if completion of this 24 or 36 is mandatory, and not the 1 yr, I am leaning on pushing him towads MUA or St. Matthews. I have to wait for the returned phone call to determine my input for my brother's decision. Thanks again Jan and everyone else who inputed.

PS: I slightly disagree with Dr. Mushroomfeet by stating that the average pod has not chance at big 4. I know there are plently of POD students with at least a 24 mcat and a 3.0 GPA. This means you not only stand a chance, but would have likely got accepted. JMO!

 

[janV88]

When was the time limit given stating that all Pod residencies will be three years starting next year?

I remember reading it somewhere but now I'm not sure. I'm gonna research this a bit more later tonight.

I just want to clasify to Jan that the requirements state "currently enrolled", not must be completed for PMS-24 or PMS-36.

Also keep in mind that if your brother doesn't complete the residency then I don't think he will be able to become board certified in podiatry. (I could be wrong though but it's something else you might want to look into)

 

[UNVME2]

I have no idea what to tell him so I am turing to you all.

Give your "brother" the same advice you gave others in 2008.

Okay, your friend does not seem to know what they want in life. Podiatry physician is a toally different path than medical physician, hence the 2 different types of schools. POD is really non-competitive, in regards to med school, in US. As long as your GPA is somewhere around 3.0 and a MCAT >20 = guaranteed acceptance to POD school. First, Your friend needs to determine if she wants to practice of feet/lower leg only or does she want to be a doctor of the whole body. Second, I wonder what carib school accepted someone who got rejected from POD school. (RED FLAG!) Check the accredation. Schools like St. James have no accredation what so ever. Some schools in CArib will not give you a shot at USLME.

1. Big 4 = good
2. MUA= ok-good
3. some of the others- really bad to ok

RESEARCH!!!

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

Give your "brother" the same advice you gave others in 2008.

Pal,

I did not come here to ask advice on how to rank caribbean medical schools. I simply wanted input on the DPM-DO option vs MUA/SMU from a first hand perspective of a podiatry student This is not the same topic. I know that MUA is not that great due to their lack of loans and limited US states to practice in. Thanks anyway for your input.

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

PS: I slightly disagree with Dr. Mushroomfeet by stating that the average pod has not chance at big 4. I know there are plently of POD students with at least a 24 mcat and a 3.0 GPA. This means you not only stand a chance, but would have likely got accepted. JMO!

We all know that an ABOVE average Pod is competitive in any degree, be it MD/DO/DPM. However, realize that the AVERAGE pod has a Cum GPA of 3.3 and a 22 MCAT. You can find these statistics on the AACPM website. If the big 4 schools such as Ross REQUIRE a minimum of 24 MCAT that means NO chance at acceptance for the average pod. With St. George's MCAT average at 27, again slim chances.

 

[janV88]

When was the time limit given stating that all Pod residencies will be three years starting next year?

It's in the Proposed Revisions to CPME 320 which says..."The podiatric residency is a resource-based, competency-driven, assessment-validated program that consists of three years of postgraduate training..." and goes on to distinguish between PM&S-24 and PM&S-36 by RRA training not program length. I don't think it mentions a time limit though.

 

[Sig Savant]

My understanding is that it will just slowly happen over the next few years.

 

[dyk343]

Take a year and study like hell for the MCAT. A score of 2-3 points higher would make him more competitive for DO schools. I dont understand spending an extra 200K and 4-7 years of your life to simply not have to retake the MCAT. Its a challenging test but.... a 25 is definably within almost anyones range if they try hard enough.

When I was studying for the MCAT I did quite a bit of browsing on the MCAT forum on SDN. Theres a lot of good info/study tips over there.

If he still refuses to take the MCAT I would go over to the DO boards and ask what schools he has a shot at. There is a chance a school will pick him up with his scores. He would be at the bottom of the bell curve but its worth a shot. He could use the Caribbean schools as a backup.

 

[NatCh]

Thanks!

This debate seems a little bit off of my question. I was not asking the validity of the DO degree to benefit the DPM practice...but rather this rather long option in order to be a fully fledged D.O. He understands that there will be 4 yr pod school +1 yr pos surgical residency +3 yrs med school +1 yr med school intern +3 yrs of med residency (12 yrs total). Is the 12 yrs more beneficial:

- Stay in US
-CAn practice in all 50 states
-US Loans

OR a caribbean school like MUA or St. Matthews U where: (7 yrs only..but! )

-5 semesters on a rock (3rd world like conditions and spouse can not work)
-limited practice opportunities (No CAli approval)
-NO loans except really high private loans

My gut feeling is that this decision would be a huge mistake. He'd be entering practice at age 39 or 40 with massive loans and low primary care reimbursement.

If your brother definitely wishes to be in primary care but is unable to get accepted to a D.O. school, then he might want to look into becoming a physician assistant or nurse practitioner. Both of those careers offer lots of primary care contact and have a much shorter training time with relatively good reimbursement.

Edit: also consider that your brother would begin practice as a PA or NP about 10 to 12 years before completing a D.P.M./D.O. training program, and during that time he will likely have earned literally over $1 million.

 

[Podmeister]

Thanks!

This debate seems a little bit off of my question. I was not asking the validity of the DO degree to benefit the DPM practice...but rather this rather long option in order to be a fully fledged D.O. He understands that there will be 4 yr pod school +1 yr pos surgical residency +3 yrs med school +1 yr med school intern +3 yrs of med residency (12 yrs total). Is the 12 yrs more beneficial:

This is plainly insane to spend 5 extra yrs of schooling and wasted financial resources to become a DO, when one can use the same 5 yr time frame to retake the MCAT, get a job, reapply to the DO program, and save a load of money.

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

My gut feeling is that this decision would be a huge mistake. He'd be entering practice at age 39 or 40 with massive loans and low primary care reimbursement.

If your brother definitely wishes to be in primary care but is unable to get accepted to a D.O. school, then he might want to look into becoming a physician assistant or nurse practitioner. Both of those careers offer lots of primary care contact and have a much shorter training time with relatively good reimbursement.

Edit: also consider that your brother would begin practice as a PA or NP about 10 to 12 years before completing a D.P.M./D.O. training program, and during that time he will likely have earned literally over $1 million.

I agree 100%. I have talked to him and he will be applying to the big 3-4 caribbean schools. There is a program at STG and Ross that is like a mini-post bacc. Ross has MERP and STG has the charter foundations program. He is actually pretty competitive for those programs and they basically require you to pass with a B or C and you are automatically admitted to MS-1 the following semester. This is a cool option becuse once in, he can use gov't backed loans and will be able to practice anywhere minus the extra 5-7 year pod committment + 150k in extra loans. All he, like the rest of us has to do is pass the classesm,boards, match, and GO! Thanks to all for your advice and good luck to you all!