Poland medical schools

[ka$hh]

Any thoughts on Poland english medical programs? In terms of ranking, reputation, coming back to US to practice, step 1 scores?

I applied to US schools this cycle but I'm not getting any interviews. I am considering retaking my MCAT or possibly doing an SMP, but I am also considering international schools. The reason why I would chose Poland is because of the US federal loans possibility as well as extremely low cost of everything.

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[gyngyn]

Only 46 0f 125 US IMG's graduating from Poland matched into a preferred specialty (37%). 79 did not (63%).
We don't know the attrition but these odds for graduates aren't promising. See Chart 15, page 22: http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[IlDestriero]

Polish medical schools are a great choice for people that want to practice medicine in Poland.

 

[piii]

You should probably keep your little secret to yourself! Once people find out you can go abroad and get your MD and come back and work in the states, then every body is gonna start doing it. Soon you'll get a bunch of for profit schools popping up in the Caribbean or something, and then IMGs will have a way harder time matching in the US! Oh wait that's already happened..

 

[Lawpy]

Only 46 0f 125 US IMG's graduating from Poland matched into a preferred specialty (37%). 79 did not (63%).
We don't know the attrition but these odds for graduates aren't promising. See Chart 15, page 22: http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

The two (in)famous tables and charts on SDN: AAMC Table 24 and NRMP Chart 15

 

[Yazo]

Pole here.

From what I hear, the English programs are top-notch. They're mostly filled with Europeans and North Americans. I'd say they're a better option than Caribbean schools because even if you're not able to practice in the US, you can use that MD anywhere in Europe.

This is one of the better programs: http://www.medschool.uj.edu.pl/en_US/prospective/md-university

 

[Officer Farva]

Any thoughts on Poland english medical programs? In terms of ranking, reputation, coming back to US to practice, step 1 scores?

I applied to US schools this cycle but I'm not getting any interviews. I am considering retaking my MCAT or possibly doing an SMP, but I am also considering international schools. The reason why I would chose Poland is because of the US federal loans possibility as well as extremely low cost of everything.

I'm genuinely curious, is the Polish program going to give you European tuition prices or charge you a lot more as an American?

 

[torontopharm]

Pole here.

From what I hear, the English programs are top-notch. They're mostly filled with Europeans and North Americans. I'd say they're a better option than Caribbean schools because even if you're not able to practice in the US, you can use that MD anywhere in Europe.

This is one of the better programs: http://www.medschool.uj.edu.pl/en_US/prospective/md-university

This depends though. The EU citizenship comes into play.
As a non EU citizen, it's nearly impossible to get UK/Irish internships unless you're studying in UK/Ireland. To practice in the other EU countries, you must show proficiency in their language. I don't think this is a route worth pursuing if you're non EU.

 

[ka$hh]

I'm genuinely curious, is the Polish program going to give you European tuition prices or charge you a lot more as an American?

Well that I would have to look into because I have a dual citizenship at this moment. A polish one and a US one.

 

[Yazo]

I'm genuinely curious, is the Polish program going to give you European tuition prices or charge you a lot more as an American?

Most medical programs within the EU are free for natives (in the native language), but they jack up the prices for foreigners. I think the average price for attending an English program is Poland is about $12K a year.

 

[ka$hh]

Most medical programs within the EU are free for natives (in the native language), but they jack up the prices for foreigners. I think the average price for attending an English program is Poland is about $12K a year.

Yea and 12K a year is significantly cheaper than 60k in the US

 

[Law2Doc]

These would be basically in the same pile as offshore schools. Whether these grads get looked at better or worse than Caribbean schools is going to depend on a programs direct experience an familiarity with grads from these programs. But you'll be after the US grads in terms of consideration, so you really should try SMP, postbac, retake mcat etc before considering any of these places. Also you won't have had US rotations, so you'll need to find a way to get some US experience, which is something the Caribbean schools generally have already built in. this is another path that is anything but a shortcut and you should probably exhaust other options first imho.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yea and 12K a year is significantly cheaper than 60k in the US

It's only "cheaper" if it leads to a job afterwards. Otherwise it's a far worse investment.

 

[Yazo]

Yea and 12K a year is significantly cheaper than 60k in the US

Definitely, Poland is my plan B if medical school doesn't work out in the US. I have EU citizenship so things would be different for me, but you should also look into British and Irish internships.

 

[Officer Farva]

Most medical programs within the EU are free for natives (in the native language), but they jack up the prices for foreigners. I think the average price for attending an English program is Poland is about $12K a year.

12k is pretty awesome. Brb applying to French and German schools.

 

[ridethecliche]

Met a 4th year from a polish school the other day when he was doing a rotation. He said that maybe half the people that started made it past 2nd year and the rest were kicked out.

 

[Officer Farva]

These would be basically in the same pile as offshore schools. Whether these grads get looked at better or worse than Caribbean schools is going to depend on a programs direct experience an familiarity with grads from these programs. But you'll be after the US grads in terms of consideration, so you really should try SMP, postbac, retake mcat etc before considering any of these places. Also you won't have had US rotations, so you'll need to find a way to get some US experience, which is something the Caribbean schools generally have already built in. this is another path that is anything but a shortcut and you should probably exhaust other options first imho.

Are all foreign schools really looked at like this? I just can't believe an Oxford grad or Heidelberg grad being looked at as inferior to your typical State U grad in the US.

 

[avgn]

Are all foreign schools really looked at like this? I just can't believe an Oxford grad or Heidelberg grad being looked at as inferior to your typical State U grad in the US.

US MDs get the spots. Period. Residency is mostly government-funded, who cares about Europeans. Also medical training and admissions is so different abroad. That Oxford BM BCh grad did not go through the trials and tribulations as did the American premed. Instead, s/he was admitted right out of HS

Also wtf is Heidelberg. I had to look it up. Case in point, we don't care

 

[Officer Farva]

US MDs get the spots. Period. Residency is mostly government-funded, who cares about Europeans. Also medical training and admissions is so different abroad. That Oxford BM BCh grad did not go through the trials and tribulations as did the American premed. Instead, s/he was admitted right out of HS

Also wtf is Heidelberg. I had to look it up. Case in point, we don't care

I think that is pretty insensitive to people who want to make a living in America. My heart goes out to those people.

I would expect a more intelligent and sensitive statement from someone who got into Hopkins and Chicago.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well that I would have to look into because I have a dual citizenship at this moment. A polish one and a US one.

Might be worth it if you were comfortable with the idea of practicing in the EU should you not get a US residency. I'd have gone to Jagiellonian in a second if I had EU citizenship because Krakow is awesome and I wouldn't mind practicing in the UK if I didn't land a spot in the US.

 

[Mad Jack]

Many residency programs will not consider foreign grads or non-US citizens.

This isn't entirely cut and dry- some places like Yale IM won't take US IMGs or DOs, but will take international medical graduates from places like Oxford and other top international schools. Top international grads will generally fare okay in the match, but they are few and far between, as they usually end up practicing in their home countries. Hell, there's so few UK grads that come to the US every year that the ECFMG doesn't even bother publishing how many of them match.

 

[Mad Jack]

US MDs get the spots. Period. Residency is mostly government-funded, who cares about Europeans. Also medical training and admissions is so different abroad. That Oxford BM BCh grad did not go through the trials and tribulations as did the American premed. Instead, s/he was admitted right out of HS

Also wtf is Heidelberg. I had to look it up. Case in point, we don't care

Personally I don't care about what trials and tribulations a person went through, because this isn't about them. I want the best damn doctors reading my patients and the best damn colleagues possible, not the guys who happened to be born in the USA. Tax dollars fund residencies, but we get one doctor at the end of the day no matter who fills that spot, so it may as well be the best one possible for our citizens to have.

 

[torontopharm]

Met a 4th year from a polish school the other day when he was doing a rotation. He said that maybe half the people that started made it past 2nd year and the rest were kicked out.

This might be school specific. I know attrition isn't an issue at Poznan and Jagiellonian (the best schools). They're both common destinations for us Canadians since it's so cheap . I know people attending both institutions. If I had to guess, the person you met is from Lublin.. the Caribbean of Polish schools. In any case, ultimately none of them is worth it to be honest if you're not a EU citizen.

 

[Yazo]

Well that I would have to look into because I have a dual citizenship at this moment. A polish one and a US one.

Na twoim miejscu bym złożył aplikację jak by się nie udało w Stanach. Nic nie masz do stracenia, a potem najwyżej se załatwisz pracę w Anglii.

 

[Officer Farva]

Many residency programs will not consider foreign grads or non-US citizens.

Isn't that unethical though? Perhaps xenophobic if they are excluding top foreign grads over mediocre US grads?

It seems being politically correct does not apply for doctors in this scenario.

 

[Lawpy]

Isn't that unethical though? Perhaps xenophobic if they are excluding top foreign grads over mediocre US grads?

How does a US residency program adequately/reliably measure the quality of foreign medical schools? Not necessarily the most famous ones, but say an FMG coming from a not-so-well known medical school abroad.

 

[Yazo]

12k is pretty awesome. Brb applying to French and German schools.

Yeah, it does. I just checked the current prices and the 4 years cost $54,893.16. You'd probably need another $5K for the dorms, but ~$60K for a respectable MD degree isn't bad.

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah, it does. I just checked the current prices and the 4 years cost $54,893.16. You'd probably need to another $6K for the dorms, but $60K for a respectable MD degree isn't bad.

Unless you can't practice with it: http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think that is pretty insensitive to people who want to make a living in America. My heart goes out to those people.

I would expect a more intelligent and sensitive statement from someone who got into Hopkins and Chicago.

And this is pretty insensitive to US grads who want to practice in the US.. Political correctness is a crap show.

There are so few students of the caliber you are talking about that the ECFMG doesn't even publish the match data, as madjack said. Top tier FMGs have no problem matching in the US. There are very few who even want to, your point is moot. Yes a PD will take a middle of the pack US grad over an IMG with a 260 step 1. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[avgn]

I think that is pretty insensitive to people who want to make a living in America. My heart goes out to those people.

I would expect a more intelligent and sensitive statement from someone who got into Hopkins and Chicago.

I did not say I agree with it, but that is reality. It's not insensitive, it's just how priorities work out in a severely resource-constrained environment

In the off chance you're a troll, the jab at the end was a decent job at flaming. 5/10

 

[Officer Farva]

I did not say I agree with it, but that is reality. It's not insensitive, it's just how priorities work out in a severely resource-constrained environment

In the off chance you're a troll, the jab at the end was a decent job at flaming. 5/10

Sorry about the sentence at the end. I am just voicing my frustration for people who want to the immigrate to the US. I honestly believe a top tier foreign grad should be given preference over the mediocre US grad. Likewise, the top tier US grad should be given preference over the mediocre foreign grad. I just like to see people treated fairly is all. Only the people who work hard should succeed, regardless of where they are from.

 

[Law2Doc]

Are all foreign schools really looked at like this? I just can't believe an Oxford grad or Heidelberg grad being looked at as inferior to your typical State U grad in the US.

No. European schools designed to train Europeans do considerably better than schools set up to cash in on foreigners. Poland joins the list of Irish and Israeli schools which were set up as alternatives to the Caribbean for uncompetitive US students who couldn't get in here. A British citizen at Oxford or German at Heidelberg will not be looked at the same way as he's not trying to find a detour -- he's going to med school in his own country -- he's not trying to find a back door. They still probably end up behind every US grad and a handful of the offshore students who shined in rotations here, because having done rotations here is a big part of admissions, but I wouldn't attach quite the same stigma as going to an English speaking Polish school which capitalizes on uncompetitive American college students.

 

[Officer Farva]

No. European schools designed to train Europeans do considerably better than schools set up to cash in on foreigners. Poland joins the list of Irish and Israeli schools which were set up as alternatives to the Caribbean for uncompetitive US students who couldn't get in here. A British citizen at Oxford or German at Heidelberg will not be looked at the same way as he's not trying to find a detour -- he's going to med school in his own country -- he's not trying to find a back door. They still probably end up behind every US grad and a handful of the offshore students who shined in rotations here, because having done rotations here is a big part of admissions, but I wouldn't attach quite the same stigma as going to an English speaking Polish school which capitalizes on uncompetitive American college students.

Ah, my bad I see. Thank you!

 

[mistafab]

I work with a ______ who had graduated from a polish med school. This doctor is a genius and ended up at Hopkins for residency.

Not saying specialty just to keep this person's anonymity. The schooling this person went to was 15 years back.

 

[gyngyn]

Sorry about the sentence at the end. I am just voicing my frustration for people who want to the immigrate to the US. I honestly believe a top tier foreign grad should be given preference over the mediocre US grad. Likewise, the top tier US grad should be given preference over the mediocre foreign grad. I just like to see people treated fairly is all. Only the people who work hard should succeed, regardless of where they are from.

The public bears the brunt of the cost of training a physician, both economically and physically. They have every reason to expect a return on this investment. The definition of "best" includes a lot more than a USMLE score.

 

[Law2Doc]

Isn't that unethical though? Perhaps xenophobic if they are excluding top foreign grads over mediocre US grads?

It seems being politically correct does not apply for doctors in this scenario.

um no -- this is s US system designed to generate US healthcare providers for US demand, and subsidized at the schooling and training level by US government money. We only look outside the US at all because our healthcare demands are so great - as of the present date we can't fill all the spots -- yet. Few countries are as open in terms of graduate education as the US. Most are essentially closed systems and it's not about xenophobia, it's about managing resources. The only ethical issues involved are that some argue we shouldn't brain drain other countries.

As for "top foreign grads", I think you need to understand that medicine is not so fungible as you make out. US medicine and training is very different than medicine as practiced in most other countries. So frankly the "top grad" elsewhere is miles behind the learning curve of how things work in a US hospital, how we practice medicine, what patients expect. Eg What good is the top mechanic if his only experience is working with Italian sports cars.

 

[Law2Doc]

...The schooling this person went to was 15 years back.

But that's really the point -- times have changed. All of these routes Poland, Caribbean were much more viable back then. The path is very different now.

 

[Goro]

If you want to practice Medicine in the US, go to a US med school.

Any thoughts on Poland english medical programs? In terms of ranking, reputation, coming back to US to practice, step 1 scores?

I applied to US schools this cycle but I'm not getting any interviews. I am considering retaking my MCAT or possibly doing an SMP, but I am also considering international schools. The reason why I would chose Poland is because of the US federal loans possibility as well as extremely low cost of everything.

 

[ridethecliche]

Isn't that unethical though? Perhaps xenophobic if they are excluding top foreign grads over mediocre US grads?

It seems being politically correct does not apply for doctors in this scenario.

Why should taxpayers pay for training foreign grads?

The best and the brightest from abroad find matches here while the rest don't. You do realize that medical education and standards/training are different in different countries right?

 

[Officer Farva]

Why should taxpayers pay for training foreign grads?

The best and the brightest from abroad find matches here while the rest don't. You do realize that medical education and standards/training are different in different countries right?

US tax payer money funds foreign-trained researchers in America, I don't see the big deal. It should be an incentive for all of us to work hard so we can compete with the best and brightest from all over!

 

[ridethecliche]

US tax payer money funds foreign-trained researchers in America, I don't see the big deal. It should be an incentive for all of us to work hard so we can compete with the best and brightest from all over!

Training in the sciences and in medicine is very very different.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why should taxpayers pay for training foreign grads?

The best and the brightest from abroad find matches here while the rest don't. You do realize that medical education and standards/training are different in different countries right?

Would you honestly would rather have some random US grad from Howard than, say, a top student from Oxford or Cambridge if you were a PD picking candidates? I'd place an international graduate from Imperial College London or Melbourne University similarly to a Yale or UCSF student in regard to training quality.

 

[Mad Jack]

Training in the sciences and in medicine is very very different.

But at the end of the day, patients are what it is about and whether we are paying for a foreign doctor to train or a local one, they're going to be staying here, so it's not like that money is in any way thrown away. I want the best doctors for myself and my patients, not just whoever happened to make it through a US school or have US citizenship.

 

[Law2Doc]

US tax payer money funds foreign-trained researchers in America, I don't see the big deal. It should be an incentive for all of us to work hard so we can compete with the best and brightest from all over!

Med school and residency seats are a more limited and managed resource. Residency slots are allocated to approximate population demand.

 

[Officer Farva]

Training in the sciences and in medicine is very very different.

I have to agree with @Mad Jack. At the end of the day, I want the best doctor period. Foreign or US-trained, it does not matter to me. There are bad and good of both types of doctors. Do you feel threatened that these guys might take your job at the end of the day. If a better foreign-trained graduate replaces me, then I deserve it.

 

[TriggaTrey]

All I know is George W Bush would never forget polish med schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

Would you honestly would rather have some random US grad from Howard than, say, a top student from Oxford or Cambridge if you were a PD picking candidates? I'd place an international graduate from Imperial College London or Melbourne University similarly to a Yale or UCSF student in regard to training quality.

In the underserved communities that need doctors most, the Howard grad is much more likely to add much more value actually. That might not have been the best example. We aren't running short of pedigreed people to work at the fancy places.

 

[Mad Jack]

In the underserved communities that need doctors most, the Howard grad is much more likely to add much more value actually. That might not have been the best example. We aren't running short of pedigreed people to work at the fancy places.

I was saying if you're a PD. I guess that's just going to come down to what your program's goals are, but for myself, I'd just want the most talented residents I could find that would make my life as unlikely to be miserable as possible.

 

[ridethecliche]

I have to agree with @Mad Jack. At the end of the day, I want the best doctor period. Foreign or US-trained, it does not matter to me. There are bad and good of both types of doctors. Do you feel threatened that these guys might take your job at the end of the day. If a better foreign-trained graduate replaces me, then I deserve it.

That's exactly my point. You can't evaluate 'foreign-training' at all but a select group of international schools. There's a reason recommendations matter so much in medicine and having them come from a totally different system means it's harder to actually evaluate someone's work ethic and clinical performance etc.

Would you honestly would rather have some random US grad from Howard than, say, a top student from Oxford or Cambridge if you were a PD picking candidates? I'd place an international graduate from Imperial College London or Melbourne University similarly to a Yale or UCSF student in regard to training quality.

Don't those elite schools have better match rates into the US than say carribean schools? I've met a few foreign residents when I was working after undergrad and many of them came from those schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

Don't those elite schools have better match rates into the US than say carribean schools? I've met a few foreign residents when I was working after undergrad and many of them came from those schools.

They often match to the same sorts of places highly ranked US students match to. In regard to international students, I'm not talking about Carib grads and the like- I'm talking about foreign grads from well-known universities, the sort of talent you want to snag because they might come up with the next new procedure or life-saving protocol if given the chance here, not just some guy with high a high Step 1 coming out of SGU that did rotations at some random community hospital in Nebraska.