Poor Dean's Letter Comment

Started by bkaqm6
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bkaqm6

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On my medicine rotation, received a horrible eval from my attending. Essentially a large paragraph that makes me appear as though i am the worse med student to ever walk this earth. All other comments in my deans letter are great, but this one sticks out. How important is this? I expect it will come up every interview? Not sure where to go from here?
 
On my medicine rotation, received a horrible eval from my attending. Essentially a large paragraph that makes me appear as though i am the worse med student to ever walk this earth. All other comments in my deans letter are great, but this one sticks out. How important is this? I expect it will come up every interview? Not sure where to go from here?

Did you ask about perhaps toning down this comment from your dean? I would say if you got a high pass in the medicine clerkship OR got great/excellent evals and perhaps a good shelf score you could ask your dean about taking out this outlier. Some attendings like to slam perhaps every 10th or 6th student they see with really bad evals that they don't like for whatever reason, which may be small, as they think it is their job to help weed out students who are doing OK on the clerkship but they think won't make good doctors.

It may have been that the attending was going through a messy divorce and felt pushed around by his/her S.O.'s lawyers and was overly critical of students. Sometimes if you have high exam scores and are smart on a rotation this can be threatening to some attendings/residents who then look for ways to tear you down so they feel more comfortable around you, i.e. so and so has great book knowledge but is clueless with patients, is really I believe a psychological reaction some people in medicine have to the new kid on the block who is bright. Sad but true, a lot of big egos in medicine.

So without more information it would be hard for us to really see what happened.
 
Yeah, i think it's time to find out a. what rights you have in editing your MSPE (some places allow deletion but no additions, some allow anything, some allow nothing, conditional on the dean's oversight of course) or b. how you can talk to your dean about this.
 
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Your dean should never have a reason to want his students to look good and get good matches. ie he and the school looks good.
I cant imagine why he/she would not have already toned it down or at least put it in better context.

Ask him about it.
 
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Whats hilarious is that my attending was actually going though a divorce with her husband during my rotation (great guess!). I think I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was one point away from honors on my shelf exam too. It just pisses me off that one doctor can break your deans letter.

I spoke with the secretary that complies my deans letter, and she essentially said it was up to the dean to trim it down if he wanted to. Could go either way on this one.
 
Ask them to remove it. We can edit our dean's letters (to a small extent of course) and if that paragraph is clearly out of character, it doesn't make sense that they would include it.

After all, they SHOULD have your best interests at heart.

A student that doesn't match or matches poorly reflects poorly on their own institution.
 
It's a balance: the dean's integrity/honesty in reporting an accurate evaluation of the student vs. not wanting their students to get shut out of good places.

If it's really an anomalous comment with feasibly extenuating circumstances, and you have any input at all on the content of your MSPE, then it seems like a no-brainer that they'd cut it.
 
It's a balance: the dean's integrity/honesty in reporting an accurate evaluation of the student vs. not wanting their students to get shut out of good places.

If it's really an anomalous comment with feasibly extenuating circumstances, and you have any input at all on the content of your MSPE, then it seems like a no-brainer that they'd cut it.

Agreed. Some Dean's letters pride themselves on stating that they include all comments without editing. Us PD's, after a few years, tend to tell the schools that heavily edit Dean's letters and then tend to not believe them as much.

I can understand the dean not wanting to remove the comment. However, as an alternative you could have the Dean insert a statement saying "In reviewing this student's performance in the third year clerkships, no other evaluator raised these concerns."
 
Whats hilarious is that my attending was actually going though a divorce with her husband during my rotation (great guess!). I think I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was one point away from honors on my shelf exam too. It just pisses me off that one doctor can break your deans letter.

I spoke with the secretary that complies my deans letter, and she essentially said it was up to the dean to trim it down if he wanted to. Could go either way on this one.

Very interesting comments above from aProgDir about how some schools don't edit their dean's letters and state this. Obviously this would be bad for some students, such as the OP. For example, say you are stuck with an attending who isn't good evaluating students objectively or is going through a hard time or has a bad reaction to someone who IS on their game and wants to just slap them down.

Obviously a lot of attendings have big egos which are also fragile and will put horrible comments in evaluations, sometimes with some regularity.

Why do deans allow attendings known to write harsh comments, sometimes unjustified do this? Is it a desire to be honest and have a "fair process"? Not likely as often such attendings make unjustified comments about other students or it is obvious that this is not reflective of the student's entire performance.

Rather it is because some medical schools are really hard up for having clinical instructors teach their medicine, peds etc . . . clerkships and basically have a "hands off" policy when it comes to correcting overly harsh evaluations based more on emotion. Your school maybe one such school where the clinical instructors really don't like the students and throw up their hands in dispair every evaluation cycle and slam students. Many of the top medical schools have really excellent faculty-student interaction where if a student isn't "learning enough" things are ironed out before the end of the clerkship. Other schools couldn't care less and have faculty retention problems and can't hire nice faculty.

Chances are good that your dean doesn't want to anger this said attending/clerkship director, and would rather leave your MSPE untouched, i.e. less work, and everybody is happy except for you who will leave for residency in a year or so.

My advice:

1. Talk to the dean directly, i.e. sit down and ask just what the procedure is when a student is concerned about apparently outlier comments in the dean's letter. Look at the specifics to see if there is anything that is exaggerated or false and ask it to be removed.

2. 100% ask for your shelf exam score AND good evaluations in said clerkship to be included in your dean's letter. Your dean won't want to do this as it shows how uneven the grading and evaluation is in this course.

Believe me, if 25 students had the same problem you had the dean would change things, but they let attendings go "student hunting" and knock off a couple of students each cycle for good measure, i.e. you are the fall guy (gal?) and while they may care about how a majority of their students do in relation to other schools, they care much less about the individual student as a person.

If you are lucky your dean will look into this and help portray your experience in the clerkship more accurately. And apply early for residency and you will get a ton of interviews before the dean's letter goes out.
 
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Well thanks a lot guys. We will see how things go. Hopefully one bad evaluation on my deans letter wont keep me out of a decent residency program.

I would doubt my dean says anything to the attending, they are almost short staffed the way it is now, and wouldn't want to lose anyone. Maybe this situation will at least raise suspicion that the attending doesn't have the most desirable attitude towards students such as myself (males)
 
I had a bad comment on one of my evals due to an obnoxious depressed intern. I think the comment was totally misrepresenting me and thankfully my dean knew me enough to not add this comment to the MSPE!
 
Well thanks a lot guys. We will see how things go. Hopefully one bad evaluation on my deans letter wont keep me out of a decent residency program.

I would doubt my dean says anything to the attending, they are almost short staffed the way it is now, and wouldn't want to lose anyone. Maybe this situation will at least raise suspicion that the attending doesn't have the most desirable attitude towards students such as myself (males)

I have a feeling that suspicion has already been raised concerning this attending, they just don't publicize it. If your dean changed or added positive info about that rotation in your dean's letter they sure wouldn't tell a touchy faculty member who would then think they "weren't being taken seriously".

I sorta was going to guess that you were male and your attending was taking some aggression towards her ex on you.
 
Yowsers...
glad I never had to deal with this.

The best option would be to go to the dean and just ask nicely if this comment could be removed. If not, then ask if it can be toned down, and point out that it seems to be anomalous, you try to do a good job, etc. If it still can't be changed or removed, then I like the idea posted above about maybe asking to have your shelf exam score added in (assuming it's good, like 75%ile or above...something that shows you did better than the average student). Also, another strategy for dealing with these types of negative comments is to get another faculty member who knows you well to directly address whatever concern(s) were raised by the negative comment. In other words, if someone criticized your work ethic, get another attending (preferably medicine, but could be some other one) to wax poetic about how hard you work. If the comment was about not being a team player, then get your friendly attending to write about how you always pull for the team. A friend had a similar situation and was able to use this tactic.

If you aren't applying to medicine, but are applying to something like surgery, the comment could still hurt you (depending on what it is) but probably would hurt you less than if you are applying to medicine or peds, for example.

Also, some soul searching about why this happened would be good. I'm not saying you deserved this. I'm only saying that your actions might have in some way contributed to what happened, and it can be helpful to learn from things that happened in the past, if for no other reason than to learn about yourself and also to learn how to avoid running afoul of "hospital politics".
 
When I had my meeting with my Dean for the letter, I was surprised that he essentially just cut and pasted all of the comments into my letter. He said that he doesn't edit it for content (he edited it for some grammatical and superflous comments though).

So this begs the question, aPD... in your experience, what % of schools have an 'honest' letter? If you recognize that a school tends to have heavily edited deans letters, how much weight to you put onto it? (ie: someone with strong scores and a good letter from a school known to edit their letters/comments vs. someone with mediocre scores and a good deans letter from a school that is known to be truthful about their students.. bringing us to another point.. what about schools with schools that are notorious for grade inflation?? just use board scores??)
 
So this begs the question, aPD... in your experience, what % of schools have an 'honest' letter? If you recognize that a school tends to have heavily edited deans letters, how much weight to you put onto it? (ie: someone with strong scores and a good letter from a school known to edit their letters/comments vs. someone with mediocre scores and a good deans letter from a school that is known to be truthful about their students.. bringing us to another point.. what about schools with schools that are notorious for grade inflation?? just use board scores??)

There's no one answer to your questions. First, all Dean's Letters come with an appendix, which specifically asks if the comments are completely unedited, edited for grammar, or edited for content. Obviously, if it's edited for content, I take that into consideration. I can't ignore the MSPE -- it's still probably the best source of honest information about your performance in medical school, but yes I weigh some of those other things more if the MSPE is edited for content.

Schools with grade inflation only hurt their students. If 70% get honors and 30% get pass, I'm unlikely to be interested in your application if you get a pass in medicine, and an Honors isn't very impressive. If 15% get honors and 85% get pass, then the Honors means something, and I can't tell who got pass at the bottom vs pass at te top, so I'm likely to invite with a pass.
 
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While I understand that it is more helpful to have unvarnished comments in the MSPE, it's hard to feel comfortable with a real outlier. During my Ob/Gyn rotation, one attending had me mistaken for another student - one who had a bit of an attitude problem, it seems. During my mid-rotation evaluation, I got a terrible evaluation, citing infractions that I never committed. I thought I set the record straight, but on my final evaluation, sure enough, there were the erroneous comments. When I went to the clerkship director, I got a big stonewall - "Oh yes, I think you did raise concerns about that at your mid-rotation eval." Never got stricken from my record, but that evaluation wasn't included in my Dean's Letter. Whew!
 
So aPD, is it common to see an MSPE with these outlier comments? Like, the student with all good comments with the one (for example) Pediatrics attendings comment stating he was below average at best.

Are they common enough you wave them off and say "probably an outlier" or does it make you go back and look at other comments to look for clues? Is there ever a case where a single comment can look like be an outlier, but be so bad as to make you reconsider offering an interview?

I know these questions are too vague to give concrete answers to (and don't directly affect me because I go to one of those schools where the Dean very emphatically "cleans up" extraneous comments) but I'm curious.
 
While I understand that it is more helpful to have unvarnished comments in the MSPE, it's hard to feel comfortable with a real outlier. During my Ob/Gyn rotation, one attending had me mistaken for another student - one who had a bit of an attitude problem, it seems. During my mid-rotation evaluation, I got a terrible evaluation, citing infractions that I never committed. I thought I set the record straight, but on my final evaluation, sure enough, there were the erroneous comments. When I went to the clerkship director, I got a big stonewall - "Oh yes, I think you did raise concerns about that at your mid-rotation eval." Never got stricken from my record, but that evaluation wasn't included in my Dean's Letter. Whew!

This is a completely different situation to that described above. If the eval is truly incorrect, then it should be fixed.

So aPD, is it common to see an MSPE with these outlier comments? Like, the student with all good comments with the one (for example) Pediatrics attendings comment stating he was below average at best.

Are they common enough you wave them off and say "probably an outlier" or does it make you go back and look at other comments to look for clues? Is there ever a case where a single comment can look like be an outlier, but be so bad as to make you reconsider offering an interview?

I know these questions are too vague to give concrete answers to (and don't directly affect me because I go to one of those schools where the Dean very emphatically "cleans up" extraneous comments) but I'm curious.

As you mention, it's hard to say. For sure, when there's a comment like this I take a look at the rest of the comments and the LOR's. They happen not infrequently. If I'm concerned enough about it, I'll call the dean and speak to them about it. It would be rare to drop someone altogether because of a single comment.
 
Recently I recieved a request for information from a program that I am interviewing at requesting what medical conditions I had, isnt this an illegal question for them to ask? What are some other ones?