Post-doctoral Residency Dilemma

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PsychedOut2291

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In the end, you have to do what's best for you, but, if you renege on this postdoc, I wouldn't plan on any career prospects with that location or colleagues of those people. Reneging late screws that program, sometimes pretty hard, depending on how the rotations are set up and the funding structure. Personally, I'm big on honoring commitments and not screwing people, so I'd complete the postdoc and look for other ways to supplement my training/didactics to fill in some of the other areas.
 
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I understand that they might be upset about reneging but would people actually blacklist a candidate and malign this or her reputation in retalliation?

They may definitely blacklist someone within a certain organization. I've seen that happen a couple times. And personally, I don't blame them. As for them going out of their way to make the renege known outside of their org, much less likely, but not unheard of.
 
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Are there reasons where backing out would be permissible?

There are definitely acceptable reasons to back out, like having to take time away to take care of a dying relative, or a personal illness that requires you to step away from work for an extended period of time.

Also, a lot of people told me that the postdoc process was easier than internship and it was likely that I would get a position at one of my top choices. Therefore, it was a bit soul crushing that it didn’t turn out that way. I honestly believe that it was a bit more competitive than internship.

For many areas, it can be an easier process, but not all. Though, this is why I always advise trainees not to apply or accept positions at placements that you are not prepared to actually go to.
 
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I am considering backing out of the site and possibly pursuing employment elsewhere. However, I was informed that there could be serious and potentially permanent ramifications of retracting my acceptance.
You're almost certainly burning a bridge with that postdoc site and possibly people associated with that site should they go to other locations with respect to future employment. If you decide to do this, communicate it ASAP once you're certain.
Could this decision extend to other locations/sites far away?
As far as I know, there's no way for anybody else to find out, besides your current TD/staff and the postdoc TD/staff. What they do with this info can range anywhere from being 100% supportive to holding longstanding petty grudges (which I wouldn't put past some of the professionals in positions of power that I've met in our field).

If this is a site in a random location where you'd likely never settle down in and you likely won't run into these people in other professional contexts, the personal consequences are probably pretty minimal to non-existent.

But if you intend to make this location your future home and want to work for that system AND the current TD/people involved in the PD have prominent roles in hiring decisions, you're introducing potential variables when it comes to future employment prospects.
 
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It sounds like reneging would not only burn a bridge with this site and potentially the professional network in this city, but would also negatively affect your relationship with your internship site. If it were me I would seriously consider whether the benefits of finding another site would outweigh all of that. Especially if you don't end up staying at your next position long-term you would likely benefit from letters of recommendation and networking support from your internship. Postdoc can feel like it's incredibly career defining, but at the end of the day it just needs to be a transitional job while you get licensed/publish/build your CV. If it feels possible to do that at this site even if it's not ideal, I would strongly consider sticking with your commitment.
 
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I also forgot to mention that I discussed this with my supervisor in a hypothetical way. I was informed that the training committee would not be able to write anymore rec letters as reneging would adversely impact their reputation. How likely would this decision impact other people involved?

This is definitely an issue. Reneging at this site definitely impacts the reputations of your letter writers. In the past when we've been burned by a trainee, and a letter writer/placement wrote a glowing review, we essentially considered that letter writer/placement as a red flag and that impacted how we viewed applicants who came from that placement or had that letter writer. So, this definitely has broader-reaching implications. Unless there was a very good reason, I would probably do something similar and ask to be removed from a reference list and not write any more letters either.
 
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My 2 jobs following internship and postdoc are both in areas that I didn't do formal rotations in so this site can still potentially meet your personal and professional goals. I received pretty solid training at both sites and those experiences, plus having reliable letter writers, have helped me to secure both jobs.

Somebody from my cohort reneged on an APPIC postdoc and they were able to still get recs from their internship and ended up working for that site in a staff role so sites/letter writers have wide discretion but it sounds like your site is clear regarding what they will do should you renege. It might be wise to take a step back and reassess your perspectives, goals, etc to arrive at your ultimate conclusion since there will be both known and unknown costs, as well as known and unknown benefits.
 
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I also forgot to mention that I discussed this with my supervisor in a hypothetical way. I was informed that the training committee would not be able to write anymore rec letters as reneging would adversely impact their reputation. How likely would this decision impact other people involved?
I just worry that you may be giving into those dastardly emotion urges so it’s great that you’re coming here to talk it out. I know the disappointment can become all consuming but is there a chance that you’re catastrophizing? Why did you apply to this site to begin with? Do you really know it’s going to be that bad? Or are you just worrying over a worst case scenario situation? I am one of those people who can fall into this space when I’m stressed and disappointed so it may be worth really looking at it (if you haven’t already). Lastly, just an anecdote, I have a close, very competent friend who didn’t match at their preferred sites. Had to find something post-match day, and was dreading the place he ended up accepting (much less shiny, lesser known, not much of a reputation in the field, etc). In reality, he had a wonderful experience at this site and considered it one of his best training experiences throughout his career.

Do you think it’s worth giving it a shot and seeing how it goes? I know for me, my expectations are always much worse than the reality.
 
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If you feel so negatively towards the site, why did you rank them? What exactly is the fear of completing 1 year of employment/training? Do you think that there is something you will not be able to pursue a year later?
 
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As others have already shared, the consequences of reneging on this postdoc can vary and be unknown until it actually happens, but it seems like there will be consequences at both the postdoc and your current internship sites. I heard that at some sites hold grudges for backing out due to having to take care of a spouse with cancer. This is a good time for you to think about what your career may look like if you seek employment instead (whether you can get the training you want, how getting an LOR may look like from your internship, etc.) Bear in mind that you may need these letters in the next few years, and whether reneging may change the way they look at you is unknown as you also need to explain to them when you ask for LORs again. There are people who completed an additional postdoc to get the training they want. There are also people who found employment that provided clinical experiences they didn't get from internship or postdoc. So there are definitely alternatives.

In general, postdoc is a buyer's market but there are actually more interns this year to begin with. Also, it is also not uncommon for sites with only one position and an internship program to recruit their own interns. Processing your disappointment and frustration will help you find a way and make a decision that works best for you instead of just wanting a way out because of your expectations before and after.
 
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I did not intend to go to this site at all. As previously mentioned, the opportunities were very limited and the program was relatively new. To be honest, I completed the application process because it was very easy and straightforward. Additionally, the commitment for interviewing was not too bad!

I think I am worried that I really won’t have a good experience at this fellowship site. I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job. I don’t mind being a workhorse but I’d rather be overworking myself in a stimulating environment.

What makes you think a different job would be any more stimulating? A job is more likely to be 'just a job' than a post-doc is likely to be 'just a job'. Are you licensed yet or do you need to this position in order to be licensed in any state you want to work in?
 
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I did not intend to go to this site at all. As previously mentioned, the opportunities were very limited and the program was relatively new. To be honest, I completed the application process because it was very easy and straightforward. Additionally, the commitment for interviewing was not too bad!

I think I am worried that I really won’t have a good experience at this fellowship site. I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job. I don’t mind being a workhorse but I’d rather be overworking myself in a stimulating environment.

I totally get not expecting to fall so far down your list and feeling pressure to grasp at your last straw. But unfortunately, you still accepted the position, so you’re on the hook, regardless of your thought process. Others have made good points. Will it definitely limit you? Nothing is definite. But people talk and there is always some risk.

It sucks though, I get it. Just give yourself time to genuinely think through this before making any rash decisions. If it can fulfill your goals in some way, I would make it work somehow. Lots of self care and support outside of work. One year is not terrible.
 
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Bottom line, in a blunt way, you should not have ranked/accepted a position that you never intended to go to. This was a big mistake. A self-imposed mistake. You can make someone else pay dearly for that mistake, and possibly malign your reputation, those of your program, and those of your letter writers, or you can honor your committment.
 
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I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job.
Even if you literally do not learn a single new thing clinically all year (which I find impossible to imagine), there is still a ton of growth possible in non-clinical domains such as how to navigate professional relationships, working on different interdisciplinary teams, self-confidence and belonging, managing workloads appropriately and saying no to things, work-life balance and more.
 
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Well, if it’s a job that is in my area of interest, I imagine it would be more enjoyable than a fellowship that doesn’t offer anything new. I’m not licensed yet. The training program will provide hours for licensing. I definitely plan to get licensed in a state that requires postdoc training hours. So, in this respect, I would need this position for reaching that goal.

That changes the calculus. A formal post-doc would beat most non-licensed jobs out of maybe the VA or a state agency. Outside of that, there are limited non-licensed options that will hire you. So, you have a choice ahead of you. Honor your commitment, get your post-doc hours done, get licensed and move on while gaining a few connections or burn a lot of bridges (remember you need these internship folks for initial job references and to certify your hours when applying for any state license) for what may be a better experience or not. It is your choice. However, it would need to be a really amazing job offer for me to do all of that and I have yet to encounter such a job.

There may have been better options on your post-doc list, but that ship has sailed. Put aside that disappointment before making this decision.
 
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I haven’t heard of anyone completing a second postdoc. I could imagine doing that in order to enter a specialty area such as forensic or neuropsych. However, it wouldn’t make sense to do another fellowship to round out the training. Also, I don’t think well-known sites would be willing to consider someone who has already completed a postdoc?
Not necessarily. It is not common but the people I know who did a second postdoc did their postdocs or are working in well-known places (i.e., top 5 children's hospitals, brand name child AMCs) in or outside of the specialty areas you mentioned. If your specific clinical interest isn't even in one of those specialty areas, maybe it will not be as hard to get related experiences down the road after you get licensed? It is a lot easier to talk about how transferable the skills you gained from your postdoc are than to explain why you don't have an LOR from your internship when you apply for jobs in the future.

I went into my internship (almost at the bottom of my list) not expecting to learn anything new either. I ended up having an enjoyable year utilizing my existing skills while getting some really good experiences that helped move my career forward to specialty areas that I have long been interested in. I guess what everyone is trying to do is help you understand potential ramifications of reneging and look at your postdoc in a positive/neutral light with an open mind. Unfortunately very little info seems to support your current decision. It is ok to feel stuck, but very often an experience is how you make of it.
 
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I agree. It’s a very bitter pill to swallow though.

It may well be a bitter pill and one that you do not enjoy, but not much of a dilemma without a better offer in hand. While we are all tired and ready to move on at this stage, do not shoot yourself in the foot over one year. Something to consider that they won't tell you in school. Going to a post-doc with a great mentor in your area of interest also often means there is no job for you (your mentor took it). Going to a new post-doc that does not have a rotation in your area of interest may mean a possible job for you building a rotation/program in that area as a staff member. Something to consider.
 
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My current postdoc overlaps heavily with skills I already have. I have taken the extra mental space to rebuild my life outside of postdoc. There are days where it feels like it's "just a job," but I also have room to breathe and remember I'm more than just a clinician.
 
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I think it's also important to note that even if you aren't necessarily learning new skills on fellowship in the sense of new interventions/populations/assessments/etc., it doesn't mean you aren't learning anything. Particularly over my first few years of independent practice, even after a two-year fellowship, I learned a lot despite basically doing the exact same thing I'd done clinically on fellowship (and internship and grad school). There's something to be said for just being able to practice in a setting with structured supervision and support.
 
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I matched at my lowest ranked site for internship and it was the only one that didn’t have the clinical or assessment experiences that I was hoping to acquire. I worked very hard to prove myself this year. I went above and beyond with everything. My supervisors provided glowing letters of recommendation and I even received invitations to interview at very highly ranked training sites including some that rejected me for internship. I even declined interview offers due to scheduling conflicts and the time commitment . I thought I would have been able to redeem myself but it was a shock that history repeated itself.

I was hoping to match at a bigger site like a large scale VAMC or AMC. However, I ended up at a small training site. I’m concerned that this postdoc might preclude me from obtaining positions at the more reputable facilities.

I do see the advantage of sticking it out for another year. I thought I wouldn’t enjoy internship and it turned out to be the most rewarding experience ever. I guess I’m worried that the limited training received at internship and postdoc will prevent me from reaching long-term career goals in some way.
Just want to say I relate to you so much. I also thought I had gotten a very solid assessment experience, also had glowing letters of recommendation. I interviewed for the post doc at my internship (and so did the other interns) and while I didn't get it, my supervisors reassured me that I did great on the interview and I think it just came down to who wanted to stay there in the very long term...regardless, I expected a lot more offers and interviews than I received, and only received two. And this is with me thinking I had gotten great training during internship, and me applying to sites where said training experiences would be used and valued...nonetheless I was pissed. It takes time to prep applications, some sites had obscenely long paper apps or required me to PAY MONEY to provide them with OFFICIAL transcripts, with me not even getting an interview in return. Thankfully, I ended up somewhere amazing last minutes, but I relate to feeling pissed and bewildered lol I really questioned what was wrong with me and why I ever decided on this path. I also have a specific field I want, rather than just being a "generalist."

Sorry I can't offer anything more concrete, but I was there and it sucked lol and frankly, I was burned out on applying and having to prove myself year after year. I don't know anyone else not in graduate school who has to apply for competitive placements each year for like 4 straight years.

I would say try to make the best out of the situation that you can, and focus on studying for the EPPP!
 
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What do you mean by burned…like have trainees reneged or behaved unprofessionally other ways?

The latter. But, I was a trainee when a postdoc match reneged at our VA site. That person was blacklisted from any position at that site. Reneged 2 weeks prior to star, no way to backfill.
 
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I matched at my lowest ranked site for internship and it was the only one that didn’t have the clinical or assessment experiences that I was hoping to acquire. I worked very hard to prove myself this year. I went above and beyond with everything. My supervisors provided glowing letters of recommendation and I even received invitations to interview at very highly ranked training sites including some that rejected me for internship. I even declined interview offers due to scheduling conflicts and the time commitment . I thought I would have been able to redeem myself but it was a shock that history repeated itself.

I was hoping to match at a bigger site like a large scale VAMC or AMC. However, I ended up at a small training site. I’m concerned that this postdoc might preclude me from obtaining positions at the more reputable facilities.

I do see the advantage of sticking it out for another year. I thought I wouldn’t enjoy internship and it turned out to be the most rewarding experience ever. I guess I’m worried that the limited training received at internship and postdoc will prevent me from reaching long-term career goals in some way.
You are the only one who knows you got your lowest ranked options for internship and postdoc. For all sites and jobs know, you got your #1s. If questioned, you could always find something the site offered that you thought would help you grow in some way - or how it was different than your other experiences. Perhaps a smaller site had more employees that were there for a long time and had strong relationships with each other, or perhaps being somewhere small would help you learn to be more resourceful, think out of the box, and work toward building relationships with outside agencies compared to being in a system that has everything figured out for you.

It is always disappointing not getting an opportunity you would have loved. It is okay to mourn that. But remember that this is also just one year and you can move into new directions and specializations after postdoc. Many have done it, the most important thing is to persevere and get that license so you can make your career what you want 😊
 
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Are you saying that being at a top ranked site during the postdoc year could result in competing for limited resources with current staff?

I am saying you may get some training in an area for a year at those places, but there will be no job for you when you are done. Going somewhere with no rotation in your area of interest may mean that this place will have a future job for you in the area you want to work in when you are done. Your previous experience may mean you are the expert/person to hire. I know post-docs that pitched jobs in related areas (lets say a health psych post-doc that wants to work with pain patients) and were hired as staff afterward to build the program.
 
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As others have said, is it burning bridges and possible connections in the field? I think maybe we've all had some unsavory training settings/experiences that wasn't what we wanted or expected. But even my worst placement (one of my practicums), I still managed to try to make the best of it, thank them for the experience, and move on gracefully. I'm glad I did because it can be a small world and some later opportunities knew these people well. And even though some rough patches when I was there between myself and some of the supervisors, they still had good things to say about me overall. And when interviewing at other places, their names came up and I could have been bitter or annoyed or smile and nod and say hey it was an interesting but valuable experience working with them.

I had a post doc I really wanted, I applied. I knew them well, I had been there before to train. They ended up canceling the position due to funding. It was pretty devastating. I found a job a few months later and then found out they didn't have anyone who could provide supervised hours at the doctoral level but only for my masters level).

It took me years to find an opportunity to get the post doc hours I needed, I eventually lucked out and was in my interest area, it took longer than expected and it wasn't always easy. But I did it and I appreciated it. And it opened doors once licensed. And you know who helped me find that second opportunity? A combination of the practicum that wasn't that great of an experience and the place that canceled the post doc. The canceled post doc place found the opportunity and let me know then put in a rec, the practicum experience that didn't go that great knew the post doc people and were asked about me, they vouched for me too.

For a postdoc if your state/jurisdiction requires one for licensure, or you plan to live in a place that requires one. I'd just get it done. Sounds like your primary issue is that the site isn't your top pick or preferred population. But look at it this way: it will fulfill a licensure requirement which will open many doors and you might learn something new!

Long story short, I'd do the postdoc you matched with, keep an open mind, and get the hours done.
 
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I’m moved by your professional journey and respect your perseverance. You’re absolutely right that I ended up in a postdoc that is in a setting that I don’t like. It’s 100% outpatient and my true passion is inpatient/residential. Unfortunately, I matched at an internship site that did not have those experiences. I desperately wanted to go to a postdoc that had residential and inpatient opportunities. Every site had those experiences except the one I matched at. As I indicated before, my family sort of pushed me into it and I really need to be more assertive and not take unsolicited career advice from them.

I’m concerned that I will be trapped in outpatient forever given that that has been the bulk of my experience. Outpatient is incredibly agonizing. I dislike the ebb and flow. 90% of the time, I have been sitting in my office doing next to nothing. The thought of having to deal with this for another year really makes me despondent about the future.

I’m just afraid that I will never get the opportunities that I have been dreaming of and jobs in settings which will help me thrive.
What would you say to a patient who came to you with a similar issue, especially if they came along with all the great advice and feedback you've received here?
 
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It’s 100% outpatient and my true passion is inpatient/residential. Unfortunately, I matched at an internship site that did not have those experiences. I desperately wanted to go to a postdoc that had residential and inpatient opportunities.
Would there be anything objectively missing from your CV that would prevent you from securing a desired inpatient/residential job in the future? Or are you catastrophizing?

Is there anything inherently different between outpatient vs inpatient/residential psychology such that quality outpt skills wouldn’t translate to inpt and vice versa?

My first job out of postdoc was VA acute inpatient psych and I had never previously trained in that setting as a prac student, intern, or postdoc. But I had some SMI experience, facilitated lots of groups, solid assessment background, interest in this type of work, and luck (e.g., there was an opening in a location where I could see myself living and they didn’t hire somebody else). And I had excellent recs from internship and postdoc, which you would lack if you reneged.
Outpatient is incredibly agonizing. I dislike the ebb and flow. 90% of the time, I have been sitting in my office doing next to nothing.
Do you mean a full outpatient therapy schedule feels like doing nothing or that your internship site isn’t providing you with both quantity or quality of clinical work? If it’s the latter, that’s a problem with your internship site and likely wouldn’t be replicated at postdoc.
Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?
Sometimes people are offered jobs during postdoc or have other reasons like family and health. Depending on the specifics, your internship and postdoc site folks may or may not want to serve as references in the future and some future employers may question whether you’d stay at their job for a desired length of time if they see that you started but didn’t complete a postdoc.
Do you think this could bar someone from jobs at other VAs and AMCs?
Short of not being able to pass a background check, it’s not like there’s a professional blacklist out there. If you reneged now, nobody else will know unless are at these sites or reach out to people currently involved.

But not providing references from internship would be odd if you apply to jobs since everybody has to do an internship and that’s also your most recent and substantial piece of clinical training. And that prospective employer might very well reach out to your internship site anyways since it’s easy to figure out your TD’s identify.
 
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First, I definitely understand the disappointment of not getting a spot at one of your other sites. One thing that really isn't clear is what will you do if you back out? If you back out, it sounds like you still need to find a postdoc position to obtain supervised hours for licensure. What are the chances you will find something that you think will be a better fit? At this time, it might be difficult to find another site (especially one you think will be a good fit) and so backing out might leave you without a position and poor relationships with your internship site and fellowship site.
 
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Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?

Unless a very good reason exists, it still looks bad.

Take it for what you will, I won't sugarcoat it. Take ownership of this situation. You are an adult. Presumably a professional adult. No one made this decision for you. You had access to all of the available information, you listened to advice, and you made a choice. You can rail at family and blame the world, or you can accept your decisions and move on. You still have choices in this matter. They will have consequences. This will be true for the rest of your life, there are always choices and consequences. Some bad, some neutral, some positive. This situation is yours, own it.

This postdoc will not prevent you from ever doing inpatient work in the future. Market forces will limit those options much more than this postdoc would.
 
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Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?
Depends on the situation.

1 year postdoc: reneging is better. The first 1-2 months is getting adjusted to the system and onboarding... if you leave half way through you've only gotten really 4-5 months of experience, not only are you screwing over the site but possibly your patient's, not to mention, yourself too... unless you're in a state that doesn't require postdoc, you might have difficulty finding a place that will help you accrue the next 6 months of hours you need to get licensed. I guess you can go the PP route, there's going to be some clinician that is willing to pay you 40-50%, provide you an hour of supervision, which will get you licensed... Then again, if this situation has you in a bind, PP is probably not going to meet your needs.

2 year postdoc: I've seen a bunch of people leave their two year postdocs because they've accumulated enough hours to get licensed. Gives you a lot more time to transfer patients. Sites usually have set out training programs, but most likely it's easier to find someone to replace you who is going to start fresh and get a full years experience, instead of someone having a new postdoc start with a cohort that is 6 months in.
 
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I’m confused. What might I say to a patient who had been given good advice about this from others?
No, what would you say to a patient who is so caught up in the emotions and what-ifs of the past, dissatisfaction with the present and immediate future, and catastrophizing about the distant future that they are looks for ways to escape from it despite extensive advice about all the negatives of doing so and all the benefits of staying on that path.
 
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How will I survive another year of being deprived of satisfying opportunities? Every day will feel like a struggle.
If you really have a lot of downtime on internship (I did) study for the EPPP. It took me 2 months to even get my application accepted, so you can do that process now.

Can you tell your supervisor you are interested in x or y so you can at least get some relevant experience? For example, I was at an outpatient clinic but liked working with young adults, psychosis, and SUD. So when therapy referrals came in, my supervisor tried to field them my way since I was interested in that :) now I don’t know where you’re at, maybe at a fancy cash pay clinic where people don’t have those issues but worth a try. And this even happens at jobs. I had a part time job doing office work at a group therapy practice, and we did intakes over the phone. There were different therapists who preferred x type of issue, and we tried to match clients to those therapists. So I don’t think it would be weird if you asked this.
 
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I think I am definitely catastrophizing. I do have quite a bit of inpatient experience from practicum and I also worked in residential settings before I started grad school.

It’s hard to constantly have to prove yourself but nothing comes from it. Additionally, it hurts when some people have been able to acquire these valuable experiences so easily.
How will I survive another year of being deprived of satisfying opportunities? Every day will feel like a struggle.
Again, apply what you would be doing with your patients to these situations. Medice, cura te ipsum

Also, it might be good to think more about the application and interview processes themselves. It seems like you received many interviews for both internship and post doc, which would seem to indicate that you are competitive on paper, but you ended up with your lowest or near-lowest choices. Is there something in the interviewing process that would seem to be driving these issues? This would be good to resolve over the next year before you go onto the job market, as you could have similar problems if these issues linger.
 
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I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?
But you accepted the position and are trying renege on it now. That's different than if you declined an offer without accepting it (thereby allowing them to extend offers to other applicants) or if you applied and they declined to offer you a position. Those two situations are just exercising free will to extend or accept offers (or not), but you're talking about having made an agreement with them and trying to renege on your end. A more comparable situation would be if your site rescinded the offer they already made to you and that you accepted.
 
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I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?

You are perseverating on this..... a lot. I would strongly suggest scheduling/setting aside some time to take perspective or maybe talk with a neutral third party. We're entering unhealthy territory here.
 
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Do you think that being at a lesser known internship and postdoc program will prevent me from obtaining a position at a reputable facility?

Well reneging on an offer could certainly do that depending on how connected the people are that you screw over. Or perhaps they are charitable folks, but I certainly wouldn't count on it. I still remember the name of the RA who formally accepted one of our research positions and then decided to take another position which delayed our study start for 3 months (as we had to do a complete new search as our institution required us to start anew once we hired this person and closed the position). Now would I hold it against this person now, likely not, but I expect a heck of a lot less from a post-bac RA than I would a postdoctoral fellow.

Still you do you. I've been following this thread for a while so my main point is this: Make a decision and accept the potential consequences.
 
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The VA I am currently completing my postdoc at, Tennessee Valley Healthcare System (TVHS), has two open fellowship positions available for the incoming 2022-2023 cohort. Below is the link to program information/description, brochure, etc. Not sure if you're open to this type of setting, location, etc., but thought I would share :)
Great job reading the room.
 
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I am going to stick it out. I am not going to be happy but I am going to compartmentalize my feelings and get through it. There’s no way that I will stay in this facility long-term and I am going to do whatever I can to obtain a position with the desired experiences that I want.
Glad you are getting to a place where you are going to do what likely makes the most logical sense, but you might want to work on reframing these thoughts. When I am catastrophizing or have anxiety based irrational thought processes that I am giving too much weight to I always picture Albert Ellis calling me out on it. I always found his style humorous and it is important for me to not take my thoughts too seriously when I'm stressed or worried.
 
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Albert Ellis was kind of abrasive though. I personally prefer Marsha Linehan’s or Aaron Beck’s approaches.
For my own inner self-talk, I go with Ellis because it's congruent with how abrasive my negative thousghts can be and I also find it amusing so it helps me laugh at my ridiculous thoughts. Beck is just way too nice for me. :)
If I had to see any of those three, I would definitely pick Linehan and actually have spent some time with her and enjoy her personality and quirky sense of humor.
 
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I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?
Everyone seems to be taking the kid gloves approach, so I'm going to go ahead and take the tough love approach. This entire thread is one big tantrum, and you're making less and less sense with each post. You reneging after accepting because you don't want to go to the site is very different from a site rejecting you or not matching you after an application process for which rejection is one of two KNOWN discrete outcomes.

But we all know you are well aware of that fact, which renders the back-and-forth in this thread redundant and tiring for the reader. Also, you detail that you had a similar experience when applying for Internship, meaning that you ended up at a site that you really did not want to be at. That should've been the lesson you needed to prevent yourself from applying or even accepting postdoc interviews at places that you are sure you do not want to be at. Why did you make that same mistake again? Given the strength of your aversion to the site, the family influence is not an excuse. I hate to use the age-old rhetorical, but if your family asked you to jump off a bridge, would you? Truly, from what you describe, you probably would and then blame them for all your broken bones. From the examples you've provided, you're describing a pattern of making decisions while of sound mind, and then blaming everybody else and everything else when those decisions don't pan out the way you want. That makes me question your decision making skills. The world does not work like that. You cannot eat your cake and have it. Again, I'm sure those are facts you're well aware of because you did not make it this far in life without being able to digest such simple concepts, but for some reason you continue to abandon your critical thinking while displaying a concerning lack of insight as to how application processes, actions, and consequences work.
 
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If you don’t have a lot of neuronpsychology experience during grad school can you still get a neuronpsychology postdoctoral fellowship experience that is not at a private practice?
 
If you don’t have a lot of neuronpsychology experience during grad school can you still get a neuronpsychology postdoctoral fellowship experience that is not at a private practice?
What kind of neuropsych experience do you have?
 
What kind of neuropsych experience do you have?
I have a couple years of private practice for my prac sites but my school didn’t have a neuro track but I was able to take a neuropsych course through a local university
 
I have a couple years of private practice for my prac sites but my school didn’t have a neuro track but I was able to take a neuropsych course through a local university
It is certainly possible, but you may have to put in extra work during your internship year to bring yourself up to par with some of your neuropsych peers who have more experience. This would be worth discussing with the head neuropsychologist / TD (very) soon after you start internship.


When I was on postdoc, I reviewed applications for our training program. I recall one individual who was more health-focused in grad school and became later interested in neuropsych. They were on neuropsych internship and put in extra hours with a neuropsychologist doing seminal readings, learning cognitive domains / tests, interpretation, etc - above and beyond their required neuropsych rotations.

This stood out in their letters of recommendation, showing they were dedicated to the field (and they was being mentored by a well-respected, board-certified neuropsychologist, so we had confidence in the extra training they were receiving). They did not match at our site, but I know they matched at a strong clinical neuropsych postdoc in the end.
 
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Ok thank you! So I would probably have to put in more hours to make myself competitive! I’ve already reached out to the head of the neuropsychology department and he guaranteed me to get extra neuropsychology experience. So seeing if there is anything else I could do to make myself become more competitive
 
If you don’t have a lot of neuronpsychology experience during grad school can you still get a neuronpsychology postdoctoral fellowship experience that is not at a private practice?
As was said above, it's possible, but will be rather difficult, especially given that you've only had one neuropsych course in grad school in addition to having limited practicum experience. If the private practice you've trained in sees a wide variety of patients, that can help, but the more settings you can get experience in, the better. Also, if you're able to take any additional neuropsych classes, that should help.

You'll also want to do all you can to land a neuro-focused internship to help make up some ground from grad school, as needed. And I'd recommend that when applying for neuropsych postdocs, you focus primarily or solely on formal, structured fellowships that offer solid didactics (e.g., neuroanatomy/medical neuroscience) in addition to well-supported clinical training.
 
As was said above, it's possible, but will be rather difficult, especially given that you've only had one neuropsych course in grad school in addition to having limited practicum experience. If the private practice you've trained in sees a wide variety of patients, that can help, but the more settings you can get experience in, the better. Also, if you're able to take any additional neuropsych classes, that should help.

You'll also want to do all you can to land a neuro-focused internship to help make up some ground from grad school, as needed. And I'd recommend that when applying for neuropsych postdocs, you focus primarily or solely on formal, structured fellowships that offer solid didactics (e.g., neuroanatomy/medical neuroscience) in addition to well-supported clinical training.
I was unable to get any neuro courses except for 1 from a local university. And I was mistaken! I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?
 
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