PsychedOut2291
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Could this decision extend to other locations/sites far away?
I understand that they might be upset about reneging but would people actually blacklist a candidate and malign this or her reputation in retalliation?
Are there reasons where backing out would be permissible?
Also, a lot of people told me that the postdoc process was easier than internship and it was likely that I would get a position at one of my top choices. Therefore, it was a bit soul crushing that it didn’t turn out that way. I honestly believe that it was a bit more competitive than internship.
You're almost certainly burning a bridge with that postdoc site and possibly people associated with that site should they go to other locations with respect to future employment. If you decide to do this, communicate it ASAP once you're certain.I am considering backing out of the site and possibly pursuing employment elsewhere. However, I was informed that there could be serious and potentially permanent ramifications of retracting my acceptance.
As far as I know, there's no way for anybody else to find out, besides your current TD/staff and the postdoc TD/staff. What they do with this info can range anywhere from being 100% supportive to holding longstanding petty grudges (which I wouldn't put past some of the professionals in positions of power that I've met in our field).Could this decision extend to other locations/sites far away?
I also forgot to mention that I discussed this with my supervisor in a hypothetical way. I was informed that the training committee would not be able to write anymore rec letters as reneging would adversely impact their reputation. How likely would this decision impact other people involved?
I just worry that you may be giving into those dastardly emotion urges so it’s great that you’re coming here to talk it out. I know the disappointment can become all consuming but is there a chance that you’re catastrophizing? Why did you apply to this site to begin with? Do you really know it’s going to be that bad? Or are you just worrying over a worst case scenario situation? I am one of those people who can fall into this space when I’m stressed and disappointed so it may be worth really looking at it (if you haven’t already). Lastly, just an anecdote, I have a close, very competent friend who didn’t match at their preferred sites. Had to find something post-match day, and was dreading the place he ended up accepting (much less shiny, lesser known, not much of a reputation in the field, etc). In reality, he had a wonderful experience at this site and considered it one of his best training experiences throughout his career.I also forgot to mention that I discussed this with my supervisor in a hypothetical way. I was informed that the training committee would not be able to write anymore rec letters as reneging would adversely impact their reputation. How likely would this decision impact other people involved?
I did not intend to go to this site at all. As previously mentioned, the opportunities were very limited and the program was relatively new. To be honest, I completed the application process because it was very easy and straightforward. Additionally, the commitment for interviewing was not too bad!
I think I am worried that I really won’t have a good experience at this fellowship site. I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job. I don’t mind being a workhorse but I’d rather be overworking myself in a stimulating environment.
I did not intend to go to this site at all. As previously mentioned, the opportunities were very limited and the program was relatively new. To be honest, I completed the application process because it was very easy and straightforward. Additionally, the commitment for interviewing was not too bad!
I think I am worried that I really won’t have a good experience at this fellowship site. I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job. I don’t mind being a workhorse but I’d rather be overworking myself in a stimulating environment.
Even if you literally do not learn a single new thing clinically all year (which I find impossible to imagine), there is still a ton of growth possible in non-clinical domains such as how to navigate professional relationships, working on different interdisciplinary teams, self-confidence and belonging, managing workloads appropriately and saying no to things, work-life balance and more.I don’t believe that I will learn anything new and it seems like it’s really just a job.
Well, if it’s a job that is in my area of interest, I imagine it would be more enjoyable than a fellowship that doesn’t offer anything new. I’m not licensed yet. The training program will provide hours for licensing. I definitely plan to get licensed in a state that requires postdoc training hours. So, in this respect, I would need this position for reaching that goal.
Not necessarily. It is not common but the people I know who did a second postdoc did their postdocs or are working in well-known places (i.e., top 5 children's hospitals, brand name child AMCs) in or outside of the specialty areas you mentioned. If your specific clinical interest isn't even in one of those specialty areas, maybe it will not be as hard to get related experiences down the road after you get licensed? It is a lot easier to talk about how transferable the skills you gained from your postdoc are than to explain why you don't have an LOR from your internship when you apply for jobs in the future.I haven’t heard of anyone completing a second postdoc. I could imagine doing that in order to enter a specialty area such as forensic or neuropsych. However, it wouldn’t make sense to do another fellowship to round out the training. Also, I don’t think well-known sites would be willing to consider someone who has already completed a postdoc?
I agree. It’s a very bitter pill to swallow though.
Just want to say I relate to you so much. I also thought I had gotten a very solid assessment experience, also had glowing letters of recommendation. I interviewed for the post doc at my internship (and so did the other interns) and while I didn't get it, my supervisors reassured me that I did great on the interview and I think it just came down to who wanted to stay there in the very long term...regardless, I expected a lot more offers and interviews than I received, and only received two. And this is with me thinking I had gotten great training during internship, and me applying to sites where said training experiences would be used and valued...nonetheless I was pissed. It takes time to prep applications, some sites had obscenely long paper apps or required me to PAY MONEY to provide them with OFFICIAL transcripts, with me not even getting an interview in return. Thankfully, I ended up somewhere amazing last minutes, but I relate to feeling pissed and bewildered lol I really questioned what was wrong with me and why I ever decided on this path. I also have a specific field I want, rather than just being a "generalist."Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I matched at my lowest ranked site for internship and it was the only one that didn’t have the clinical or assessment experiences that I was hoping to acquire. I worked very hard to prove myself this year. I went above and beyond with everything. My supervisors provided glowing letters of recommendation and I even received invitations to interview at very highly ranked training sites including some that rejected me for internship. I even declined interview offers due to scheduling conflicts and the time commitment . I thought I would have been able to redeem myself but it was a shock that history repeated itself.
I was hoping to match at a bigger site like a large scale VAMC or AMC. However, I ended up at a small training site. I’m concerned that this postdoc might preclude me from obtaining positions at the more reputable facilities.
I do see the advantage of sticking it out for another year. I thought I wouldn’t enjoy internship and it turned out to be the most rewarding experience ever. I guess I’m worried that the limited training received at internship and postdoc will prevent me from reaching long-term career goals in some way.
What do you mean by burned…like have trainees reneged or behaved unprofessionally other ways?
Wow....2wks before is bad.The latter. But, I was a trainee when a postdoc match reneged at our VA site. That person was blacklisted from any position at that site. Reneged 2 weeks prior to star, no way to backfill.
You are the only one who knows you got your lowest ranked options for internship and postdoc. For all sites and jobs know, you got your #1s. If questioned, you could always find something the site offered that you thought would help you grow in some way - or how it was different than your other experiences. Perhaps a smaller site had more employees that were there for a long time and had strong relationships with each other, or perhaps being somewhere small would help you learn to be more resourceful, think out of the box, and work toward building relationships with outside agencies compared to being in a system that has everything figured out for you.Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I matched at my lowest ranked site for internship and it was the only one that didn’t have the clinical or assessment experiences that I was hoping to acquire. I worked very hard to prove myself this year. I went above and beyond with everything. My supervisors provided glowing letters of recommendation and I even received invitations to interview at very highly ranked training sites including some that rejected me for internship. I even declined interview offers due to scheduling conflicts and the time commitment . I thought I would have been able to redeem myself but it was a shock that history repeated itself.
I was hoping to match at a bigger site like a large scale VAMC or AMC. However, I ended up at a small training site. I’m concerned that this postdoc might preclude me from obtaining positions at the more reputable facilities.
I do see the advantage of sticking it out for another year. I thought I wouldn’t enjoy internship and it turned out to be the most rewarding experience ever. I guess I’m worried that the limited training received at internship and postdoc will prevent me from reaching long-term career goals in some way.
Are you saying that being at a top ranked site during the postdoc year could result in competing for limited resources with current staff?
What would you say to a patient who came to you with a similar issue, especially if they came along with all the great advice and feedback you've received here?I’m moved by your professional journey and respect your perseverance. You’re absolutely right that I ended up in a postdoc that is in a setting that I don’t like. It’s 100% outpatient and my true passion is inpatient/residential. Unfortunately, I matched at an internship site that did not have those experiences. I desperately wanted to go to a postdoc that had residential and inpatient opportunities. Every site had those experiences except the one I matched at. As I indicated before, my family sort of pushed me into it and I really need to be more assertive and not take unsolicited career advice from them.
I’m concerned that I will be trapped in outpatient forever given that that has been the bulk of my experience. Outpatient is incredibly agonizing. I dislike the ebb and flow. 90% of the time, I have been sitting in my office doing next to nothing. The thought of having to deal with this for another year really makes me despondent about the future.
I’m just afraid that I will never get the opportunities that I have been dreaming of and jobs in settings which will help me thrive.
Would there be anything objectively missing from your CV that would prevent you from securing a desired inpatient/residential job in the future? Or are you catastrophizing?It’s 100% outpatient and my true passion is inpatient/residential. Unfortunately, I matched at an internship site that did not have those experiences. I desperately wanted to go to a postdoc that had residential and inpatient opportunities.
Do you mean a full outpatient therapy schedule feels like doing nothing or that your internship site isn’t providing you with both quantity or quality of clinical work? If it’s the latter, that’s a problem with your internship site and likely wouldn’t be replicated at postdoc.Outpatient is incredibly agonizing. I dislike the ebb and flow. 90% of the time, I have been sitting in my office doing next to nothing.
Sometimes people are offered jobs during postdoc or have other reasons like family and health. Depending on the specifics, your internship and postdoc site folks may or may not want to serve as references in the future and some future employers may question whether you’d stay at their job for a desired length of time if they see that you started but didn’t complete a postdoc.Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?
Short of not being able to pass a background check, it’s not like there’s a professional blacklist out there. If you reneged now, nobody else will know unless are at these sites or reach out to people currently involved.Do you think this could bar someone from jobs at other VAs and AMCs?
Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?
Depends on the situation.Does it look better if a resident leaves the postdoc halfway through vs. reneging?
No, what would you say to a patient who is so caught up in the emotions and what-ifs of the past, dissatisfaction with the present and immediate future, and catastrophizing about the distant future that they are looks for ways to escape from it despite extensive advice about all the negatives of doing so and all the benefits of staying on that path.I’m confused. What might I say to a patient who had been given good advice about this from others?
If you really have a lot of downtime on internship (I did) study for the EPPP. It took me 2 months to even get my application accepted, so you can do that process now.How will I survive another year of being deprived of satisfying opportunities? Every day will feel like a struggle.
I think I am definitely catastrophizing. I do have quite a bit of inpatient experience from practicum and I also worked in residential settings before I started grad school.
It’s hard to constantly have to prove yourself but nothing comes from it. Additionally, it hurts when some people have been able to acquire these valuable experiences so easily.
Again, apply what you would be doing with your patients to these situations. Medice, cura te ipsumHow will I survive another year of being deprived of satisfying opportunities? Every day will feel like a struggle.
But you accepted the position and are trying renege on it now. That's different than if you declined an offer without accepting it (thereby allowing them to extend offers to other applicants) or if you applied and they declined to offer you a position. Those two situations are just exercising free will to extend or accept offers (or not), but you're talking about having made an agreement with them and trying to renege on your end. A more comparable situation would be if your site rescinded the offer they already made to you and that you accepted.I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?
I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?
Do you think that being at a lesser known internship and postdoc program will prevent me from obtaining a position at a reputable facility?
Great job reading the room.The VA I am currently completing my postdoc at, Tennessee Valley Healthcare System (TVHS), has two open fellowship positions available for the incoming 2022-2023 cohort. Below is the link to program information/description, brochure, etc. Not sure if you're open to this type of setting, location, etc., but thought I would share
Glad you are getting to a place where you are going to do what likely makes the most logical sense, but you might want to work on reframing these thoughts. When I am catastrophizing or have anxiety based irrational thought processes that I am giving too much weight to I always picture Albert Ellis calling me out on it. I always found his style humorous and it is important for me to not take my thoughts too seriously when I'm stressed or worried.I am going to stick it out. I am not going to be happy but I am going to compartmentalize my feelings and get through it. There’s no way that I will stay in this facility long-term and I am going to do whatever I can to obtain a position with the desired experiences that I want.
For my own inner self-talk, I go with Ellis because it's congruent with how abrasive my negative thousghts can be and I also find it amusing so it helps me laugh at my ridiculous thoughts. Beck is just way too nice for me.Albert Ellis was kind of abrasive though. I personally prefer Marsha Linehan’s or Aaron Beck’s approaches.
Everyone seems to be taking the kid gloves approach, so I'm going to go ahead and take the tough love approach. This entire thread is one big tantrum, and you're making less and less sense with each post. You reneging after accepting because you don't want to go to the site is very different from a site rejecting you or not matching you after an application process for which rejection is one of two KNOWN discrete outcomes.I also don’t understand how training sites routinely reject applicants but get offended when candidates decline or renege? I’d imagine that it should work both ways?
What kind of neuropsych experience do you have?If you don’t have a lot of neuronpsychology experience during grad school can you still get a neuronpsychology postdoctoral fellowship experience that is not at a private practice?
I have a couple years of private practice for my prac sites but my school didn’t have a neuro track but I was able to take a neuropsych course through a local universityWhat kind of neuropsych experience do you have?
It is certainly possible, but you may have to put in extra work during your internship year to bring yourself up to par with some of your neuropsych peers who have more experience. This would be worth discussing with the head neuropsychologist / TD (very) soon after you start internship.I have a couple years of private practice for my prac sites but my school didn’t have a neuro track but I was able to take a neuropsych course through a local university
As was said above, it's possible, but will be rather difficult, especially given that you've only had one neuropsych course in grad school in addition to having limited practicum experience. If the private practice you've trained in sees a wide variety of patients, that can help, but the more settings you can get experience in, the better. Also, if you're able to take any additional neuropsych classes, that should help.If you don’t have a lot of neuronpsychology experience during grad school can you still get a neuronpsychology postdoctoral fellowship experience that is not at a private practice?
I was unable to get any neuro courses except for 1 from a local university. And I was mistaken! I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?As was said above, it's possible, but will be rather difficult, especially given that you've only had one neuropsych course in grad school in addition to having limited practicum experience. If the private practice you've trained in sees a wide variety of patients, that can help, but the more settings you can get experience in, the better. Also, if you're able to take any additional neuropsych classes, that should help.
You'll also want to do all you can to land a neuro-focused internship to help make up some ground from grad school, as needed. And I'd recommend that when applying for neuropsych postdocs, you focus primarily or solely on formal, structured fellowships that offer solid didactics (e.g., neuroanatomy/medical neuroscience) in addition to well-supported clinical training.