Post-doctoral Residency Dilemma

[summerbabe]

I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?

I’m not a neuro person so take this advice with a grain of salt but one major barrier will be timeline of when you can get neuro experience versus when neuro postdoc apps are due.

The neuro specific interns are being preferenced to get neuro hours from the start so those can be reported for postdoc apps and to develop their rec sources.

Does your internship do 3 major rotations a year? 2 majors? What do minor rotations looks like? And when might you be able to start neuro? If it won’t be until the second half of the year or even final rotation, my guess is that your competitiveness for the best formal postdocs will suffer greatly.

And unfortunately, you’re likely largely at the mercy of your site. My best rec is to continue to communicate with your training director to let your needs to known (without being overly pushy) while attempting to remain flexible. Good luck!

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[szymk1sm]

I was unable to get any neuro courses except for 1 from a local university. And I was mistaken! I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?

Attend all of the neuropsych didactics....and any of the other neuropsych webinars if you're able to (Know Neuropsych, APPCN didactics, etc.)

I understand all VA's are set up differently, but I did my internship at a VA and we spent our first week hearing about all of the possible rotations that were offered and then the interns had to determine who would do which rotation and when (besides the 2 speciality tracks - they automatically got their niche areas for the first half of internship).

If yours is set up similarly, are there any rehab, PTRP, SCI rotations you can do? Can you ensure you do a neuro rotation early in the second half of the year (so maybe you won't have that experience on your CV, but you could indicate that you're doing that rotation prior to graduating)?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I was unable to get any neuro courses except for 1 from a local university. And I was mistaken! I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?

Not a neuro either and I am sure others with more direct experience will chime in, but there could be some reason for sites to value varied experience. The neuropscyhologists that I have worked with in the past very much emphasized the importance of clinical skills that I would think are often honed in other settings. I could imagine situations where sites have had trouble with someone who had all kinds of testing experience and the other domains of skill that are expected of a psychologist were lacking. Although we are getting more specialized as our field develops, still good to hold on to our generalist roots. Also, I am sure that the other neuro folk on here can give some solid advice on how to maximize your chances since I am sure others have had similar concerns as we don’t really get to pick our internships.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I was unable to get any neuro courses except for 1 from a local university. And I was mistaken! I will be in the general track at the internship site I’m going into but im not guaranteed any neuro rotations in the beginning of my internship only later on after the neuro interns have completed their rotations and probably only able to get a minor!. I’m very worried that I won’t be able to get a neuro postdoc. My dissertation is neuro focused and I am hoping my 2 practicum experiences will be enough to get me by. Any way to help get more neuro experience on internship?

As other folks have said above, it sounds like the primary advantage (in addition to having the placements essentially guaranteed) for the neuro-track interns is that their rotations will occur earlier, which is generally an advantage given that postdoc applications start coming due around October/November-ish (although IIRC, most are due around December). However, if you're guaranteed a neuro rotation on internship, that's a good thing and definitely worth mentioning in your cover letters.

As far as getting more neuro experience on internship, a lot of that is going to be dependent on the specific internship. The recommendation from szymk1sm above to attend all neuropsych didactics at your internship, in addition to those outside of internship (e.g., the KnowNeuropsychology and APPCN webinars, as mentioned above) is a great one. If you haven't had neuroanatomy and can financially swing going through the NAN course (and it won't impact your internship duties), that's also an option. And also like szymk1sm mentioned above, even if you can't get a neuropsych rotation early on, you could still potentially participate in a "neuro-friendly" rotation like spinal cord injury or polytrauma. Barring that, a more health/medically-focused rotation may also be helpful, like chronic pain or behavioral medicine (which may allow you to do transplant evals). And like summerbabe recommended, remain in touch with your DCT and/or internship mentor about your goals to see if they're able to help you out along the way.

Beyond that, just apply widely for postdoc if you're able.

 

[szymk1sm]

As other folks have said above, it sounds like the primary advantage (in addition to having the placements essentially guaranteed) for the neuro-track interns is that their rotations will occur earlier, which is generally an advantage given that postdoc applications start coming due around October/November-ish (although IIRC, most are due around December). However, if you're guaranteed a neuro rotation on internship, that's a good thing and definitely worth mentioning in your cover letters.

As far as getting more neuro experience on internship, a lot of that is going to be dependent on the specific internship. The recommendation from szymk1sm above to attend all neuropsych didactics at your internship, in addition to those outside of internship (e.g., the KnowNeuropsychology and APPCN webinars, as mentioned above) is a great one. If you haven't had neuroanatomy and can financially swing going through the NAN course (and it won't impact your internship duties), that's also an option. And also like szymk1sm mentioned above, even if you can't get a neuropsych rotation early on, you could still potentially participate in a "neuro-friendly" rotation like spinal cord injury or polytrauma. Barring that, a more health/medically-focused rotation may also be helpful, like chronic pain or behavioral medicine (which may allow you to do transplant evals). And like summerbabe recommended, remain in touch with your DCT and/or internship mentor about your goals to see if they're able to help you out along the way.

Beyond that, just apply widely for postdoc if you're able.

I'll second some of the things in here... having a 3-month internship rotation with chronic pain has been immensely helpful with many of patients I see (i.e., knowing what types of things to say to them, how to frame pain-related things, or referrals to suggest, as well as knowing how chronic pain affects the brain and body and can influence your findings).

I do neuropsych transplant evals now and wasn't exposed to this until postdoc -- if you can get transplant experience (even non-neuro) on internship, that would be a significant benefit (especially if you apply to any neuropsych postdocs where transplant evals may be a part of a medical neuropsych rotation down the line).

Applying broadly is also advantageous -- APPCN sites in the midwest or other non-popular / rural locations may be more friendly to someone with some (but not strong) neuro experience.

While aging / neurodegenerative disorders and TBI / stroke are common areas to specialize within neuropsych, being a medical neuropsychologist is also an option and having those behavioral medicine experiences on internship may make you a stronger candidate at a postdoc site with a med neuropsych focus / rotation.

This may be a helpful book to review:

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[msc545]

I will just mention two things that others have not:

1. Your family did not put you in this situation. You did, by allowing them to pressure you into it.
2. Your anger at not getting the internship you thought you deserved and then not getting the Postdoc you wanted is palpable.

The result of your anger is your rather self-destructive impulse to blow up the postdoc you DID get. Please get some help before you wreck your career.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Do you think that being at a lesser known internship and postdoc program will prevent me from obtaining a position at a reputable facility?

No.

Long story short (in bullet format):
1. I have a master's in cognitive neuroscience
2. I attended a (very) lesser reputable Psy.D. program in a neuro track
3. I have substantial research/publication experiences in neuro and rehab
4. I have substantial practica rotations in neuro and rehab
5. I matched to my 7th choice of internship in a neuro track at a lesser known VA
6. While on internship, I dropped out of my neuro track 3 months in and switched to the generalist track (story for a later thread)
7. I gained a very well-rounded set of experiences on multiple residential and outpatient units with the VA
8. I was geographically restricted for post-doc, thus, I applied to several non-neuro and two neuro post-docs (only got one neuro interview), and several interviews for post-docs in rehab and health psych, and I applied to some GS-11 staff psychologist jobs within the VA system.
9. In the end, I actually took a GS-11 staff psychologist job in BHIP. Completely out of my depth, but learned a lot.

In sum, these experiences by no means determined my future. I actually had some really excellent interview offers for internship and post-doc, and was even accepted into one VERY highly respected post-doc for neuro-rehab, but living off of $38K in Los Angeles was a no-go. I was also tired of being out of the job market and losing time being able to make good money. I also realized a GS-11 position would be a "two birds one stone" situation (sorry PETA folks). Fast forward to now, my spouse and I were looking into moving back to my home of Texas, and it just so happened he got his dream job, so, I ended up getting SEVERAL interviews at SEVERAL AMCs and a VA in that area, and had several options ranging from outpatient to residential neurorehab. I ended up recently accepting a job as a GS-12 Staff Psychologist with the VA in their SDTP unit and will have a joint faculty appointment as an Assistant Professor at a highly reputable medical school/AMC. Talk about moving on up in the world! In all honesty, my experience was not without its emotionally challenging ordeals - I certainly struggled with identity, anger, frustration, and feeling worthless. But I also accepted my actions, and choices, and saw the benefits of my decisions rather than the downside. You are right, outpatient work can be boring but also grueling. In BHIP, my average caseload is 30 a week, ranging from any diagnosis in the DSM. I also do testing. I relish the moments I get no shows or cancellations I actually got licensed 4 months after my doctorate was conferred, so in my first 4 months in my current position, I would study for the EPPP. Luckily, once I got licensed, it allowed me to practice independently, so I started my own LLC, and sub-contracted with a local forensic practice to begin a forensic side of my practice. I do this in addition to my full time gig with the VA.

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[texanpsychdoc]

The next year is going to be painful and agonizing. I really hate that I have to move from pillar to post practically every year. I know where I want to settle down and it’s not in the state of the postdoc site.

Join the crowd. If geographic stability was what you sought, this profession is probably the last thing I'd consider for that. We had to move from Texas to Florida, then moved from one place in Florida to another for our schooling and work, then we moved to Ohio. We moved to Ohio when I matched to internship, I also helped get my spouse a job (they are a doctor) at a very well-respected AMC here. After applying for post-docs and jobs and finally deciding to take the GS-11 staff job, we decided to stay and buy a house after I finished my internship right before starting my job. Now that we've lived in our house a little over a year, my spouse ends up getting their dream job in Houston, so we just sold our house, and bought a new one, I had to interview for jobs in Houston and finally got one, so now we are moving...again. We've been moving so much in our 14 years of marriage, so I am hoping this will be "it" for a while. Think of it as a stepping stone in your career development.

 

[psych.meout]

The next year is going to be painful and agonizing. I really hate that I have to move from pillar to post practically every year. I know where I want to settle down and it’s not in the state of the postdoc site.

What would you say to a patient who came to you with a similar issue, especially if they came along with all the great advice and feedback you've received here?

 

[Sanman]

The next year is going to be painful and agonizing. I really hate that I have to move from pillar to post practically every year. I know where I want to settle down and it’s not in the state of the postdoc site.

Well, then I guess you are not settled down... which makes sense because you are still in training.

I want to be retired on a beach somewhere. However, I went to grad school, got married, bought a house with a mortgage, and I am having a kid. So, I guess it will be a painful 20 or 30 years working instead. Thems is the consequences of my actions.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Dude, attempt a cognitive reframe for crying out loud. Even if you don’t believe it, do it. It’s sort of a foundational aspect of CBT and being able to implement psychological principles to improve functioning is one of our domains of expertise.

The next year is going to be painful and agonizing. I really hate that I have to move from pillar to post practically every year. I know where I want to settle down and it’s not in the state of the postdoc site.

I swear I should create a meme of Ellis challenging the catastrophizing and negative expectations. Ellis may be harsh but sometimes we all need someone who is stronger or louder or clearer than our own irrational, unproductive, and useless thoughts and can call them out as such.

 

[psych.meout]

Yes, I see what you are all saying. I just don’t like drastic changes.

You're making me do it.

View attachment 357699

 

[msc545]

None of us like drastic changes. Roll with it.

 

[Sanman]

I desperately wanted to stay at my internship site. They didn’t have any positions available. It doesn’t make sense given the high demand for mental health providers in the facility. I swear it broke me when I had to leave

If you think that one necessarily equals the other, you have a lot to learn about this business.

 

[psych.meout]

Help me understand

The need for mental health providers doesn't mean that post doc positions or even jobs manifest themselves. Need =/= funding and jobs.

 

[Sanman]

Help me understand

Go rent an office and offer your services for free. You will immediately have a month's long wait list and be overwhelmed by need. You will also be losing money hand over fist on rent, office supplies, etc. Now hire staff to answer the phones, but don't charge clients. Even deeper in debt. You need another clinician. Do you have another office? No. Rent another office. More debt. Need means nothing if there is not enough cash to make a nice profit.

 

[WisNeuro]

I desperately wanted to stay at my internship site. They didn’t have any positions available. It doesn’t make sense given the high demand for mental health providers in the facility. I swear it broke me when I had to leave

If that's what it takes to break you, I fear you are not long for this profession.

 

[PsyDuck90]

I desperately wanted to stay at my internship site. They didn’t have any positions available. It doesn’t make sense given the high demand for mental health providers in the facility. I swear it broke me when I had to leave

Didn't you say earlier that you ranked at your lowest ranked internship and were unhappy there to?

 

[WisNeuro]

Ok…these comments have been a little harsh. I crave autonomy and I know where my strengths lie but I am constantly blocked from getting these opportunities. I never wanted this postdoc site in a state so far from family and friends. I feel so empty and directionless now. It’s like I am trapped in a situation from which there is no escape.

What opportunities are you not getting that you can't get in the future? You had control over whether or not you went to this postdoc. You ranked it. That was something in your control. OWN YOUR DECISIONS. This is early in your career, it's not over, so quit the Chicken Little routine and start thinking of how you can make the most out of postdoc, and then after that you are free to pursue whatever you want in your career in whatever geographic region you want.

 

[Sanman]

Ok…these comments have been a little harsh. I crave autonomy and I know where my strengths lie but I am constantly blocked from getting these opportunities. I never wanted this postdoc site in a state so far from family and friends. I feel so empty and directionless now. It’s like I am trapped in a situation from which there is no escape.

You're an adult who accepted a job offer, not a child laborer in an African cobalt mine. With all due respect, grow up.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Yes, but it turned out to be a wonderful experience. I think I was always meant to go there. I honestly loved every minute of it and would have ranked the site number 1 if I knew then what I know now. I could have done so much more there, so I feel empty and sad as a result of leaving. It just seems that nothing really works out the way I want. I always lose opportunities or get blocked from them due to circumstances beyond my control.

So you were dreading this internship and incredibly unhappy that you matched there. Then, you got there and realized it was the best place for you and a wonderful experience. Is there a reason this postdoc may not turn out the same way? Even if you know you don't want to settle in this state, that doesn't mean the experience can't be worthwhile.

 

[Sanman]

Well…I don’t know how to say this. If you read the earlier posts, I don’t believe I had any say in the matter.

Did anyone put a gun to your head and force you to rank the site? Rank the sites for you without your knowledge? If not, you entered into a legal contract and are now expected to abide by the terms of said contract. You could have skipped the match process entirely and found a job.

You said your family pushed you into it. Perhaps a course of therapy to learn appropriate boundaries and to learn to make your own decisions is necessary. Or just to learn that sometimes life doesn't work out the way you want and that is okay.

 

[psych.meout]

Yes, but it turned out to be a wonderful experience. I think I was always meant to go there. I honestly loved every minute of it and would have ranked the site number 1 if I knew then what I know now. I could have done so much more there, so I feel empty and sad as a result of leaving. It just seems that nothing really works out the way I want. I always lose opportunities or get blocked from them due to circumstances beyond my control.

Look, if you don't realize how this is an object lesson about how you can reframe your catastrophizing maybe this isn't the profession for you.

A year is a big commitment. Internship is understandable but this is a giant mess. The state where I want to obtain licensure prefers that you obtain postdoc hours under supervision of a psychologist licensed in that specific state. Therefore, I don’t see how this postdoc site in the west coast (which is way too fast paced for me) will help me. I don’t see what else I can learn as it’s all outpatient mental health, which I have done before.

I am not getting younger and this year is going to just ruin my life.

The entire coast is too fast-paced for you? Do you not see how you're just looking for reasons why it will be bad instead of taking a more balanced or objective perspective?

Well…I don’t know how to say this. If you read the earlier posts, I don’t believe I had any say in the matter.

In what way did you not have any say? Just because other people were trying to influence your decision or you felt like you had limited options doesn't mean that you didn't make a choice.

Again, this kind of helplessness, poor insight, etc. just makes it dubious that you can use these same skills for patients when you can't use them for yourself.

 

[WisNeuro]

A year is a big commitment. Internship is understandable but this is a giant mess. The state where I want to obtain licensure prefers that you obtain postdoc hours under supervision of a psychologist licensed in that specific state. Therefore, I don’t see how this postdoc site in the west coast (which is way too fast paced for me) will help me. I don’t see what else I can learn as it’s all outpatient mental health, which I have done before.

I am not getting younger and this year is going to just ruin my life.

I wish for the best for you, but I am out. If your locus of control is that externalized, I'm not sure what kind of help SDN can possibly offer. There is just too much of a disconnect from reality here to do any good.

 

[Sanman]

What I am trying to say is that I am scared. I don’t know what’s going to happen in a year. I have never embarked on this kind of journey and lived so far from home.

Ahh, progress. Well done. What has you scared/ is your worst fear?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Embarking on this journey to be a psychologist has been scary every step of the way. I have had to push myself and grown in so many ways. Courage is not the absence of fear, courage is being afraid, but still doing what you need to do. It takes a lot of courage to accomplish a goal that many want to do, but few really can. As a graduate, you have come a long way and are now a doctor dammit. I am about 12 years since graduating and I am still grappling with the development of my professional identity. That being said, I have been able to impact many lives in dramatic ways and some days I am blown away by what I have learned and what I can do. Growth is a process and a clear area of growth for yourself is to learn to reframe and challenge the catastrophic thoughts that are the natural result of anxiety.

I just opened a business in March and this week made the leap into having hired employees. I am terrified because now other people are counting on me too. I use every friggin’ psychological tool I’ve learned to cope with this anxiety in adaptive ways and I am pretty sure I’ll be successful. Heck, even if I fail, I still have the fallback of getting a job as a psychologist so probably won’t be homeless. Seriously though, the thought of being homeless comes into my head. I use the ACT technique of watching that thought go down the stream and see what the next thought is or I challenge it with rationality as above.

I also want to commend you on continuing to participate and let us know how you’re progressing as you continue. It’s ok to let us know the good, the bad, and the ugly. Criticism of some things one says will happen, but that’s ok. A psychologist is strong enough to take it. I have received negative feedback and disagreement and been misunderstood on this forum, but I have also learned a great deal and received a lot of support. I love participating in the studentdoctor forums because I am still a student.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

So you were dreading this internship and incredibly unhappy that you matched there. Then, you got there and realized it was the best place for you and a wonderful experience. Is there a reason this postdoc may not turn out the same way? Even if you know you don't want to settle in this state, that doesn't mean the experience can't be worthwhile.

EXACTLY what I was thinking. @PsychedOut2291 Please update us in 6 months and in a year

 

[psychedaboutpsych123]

As someone who relocated to the west coast for internship after being a lifelong east coaster, the cities here are wildly chill. The west coast is very chill (sometimes too chill, like would it kill ya to walk a little faster!?)

Moving somewhere you know absolutely no one is horrifyingly scary AND 10000% the best decision I've ever made in my life. It has taught me how to fend for myself, how to be independent, how to make friends as an adult (it is possible! don't let people tell you its not!), and how to enjoy your own company. I know that after doing this, I can tackle any big life changes that get thrown my way in the future. Was I having stress dreams every night prior to moving for internship? Freud was rolling in his grave with the opportunity to unpack those dreams. Was it hard not having my support system? Absolutely. Get yourself a good therapist to process this with, bond with your co-residents, and reach out to the TDs for support. And, it gave me the space to examine the relationships I have and helped me evaluate what I wanted to take forward with me in the future (something you can't evaluate as easily when you're living in close quarters with these relationships). I ended up liking it so much that I stayed for a second year as a resident. I am leaving this training experience as a very different and significantly better version of myself. I know it's scary, and I hope you can let yourself feel the fear and calm yourself with the knowledge that you did this before for internship and can do it again. And, it's only a year. A year FLIES by. Think of it as a mini adventure and an opportunity to explore a new part of the country. Not many people get the chance to live somewhere totally different for a year, and I would recommend soaking in all your new city has to offer. Good luck !

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

Everyone I know has brought up the fact that I was freaking out about moving for internship this time last year and now couldn’t imagine being anywhere else. Talk about a full 180. Based on history, they believe I will go through the same adjustment process and end up loving this new place. I will say that I have never felt so much happiness and joy from being in an area as I did this past year.

Seems like there is potential to enjoy the new city for one year. Schedule some trips back to this area that brings you joy. It will give you something to look forward to every few months.

 

[msc545]

Yes, but it turned out to be a wonderful experience. I think I was always meant to go there. I honestly loved every minute of it and would have ranked the site number 1 if I knew then what I know now. I could have done so much more there, so I feel empty and sad as a result of leaving. It just seems that nothing really works out the way I want. I always lose opportunities or get blocked from them due to circumstances beyond my control.

We should all be victimized so terribly as you are.

 

[msc545]

It wasn’t my intention to play the victim card.

Right! "It just seems that nothing really works out the way I want. I always lose opportunities or get blocked from them due to circumstances beyond my control." Then what is that?

 

[msc545]

Just venting, I suppose.

ok

 

[psychedaboutpsych123]

I don’t think any part of the US is as chill and laid back as the Midwest and south. Fast paced cities give me anxiety! I mean I would rather be in the west coast than the Pacific Northwest.

So, the Pacific Northwest is part of the west coast.. And as someone who has lived on both coasts, the west coast is significantly more laid back.

I worry you're finding reasons to hate this job before you've even started it. It may be easier to try and go in with an open mind. Save yourself some anxiety, dig yourself out of a depression hole you're creating with cognitive distortions, and give yourself a break!

 

[WisNeuro]

PNW isn't that bad. It's pretty laid back. The people are fairly passive aggressive in communication style, so that may be tough if you are more of a very direct communicator. The outdoors activities out there are second to none, though. Always loved just taking a day trip to go hiking up a small mountain.

 

[psych.meout]

PNW isn't that bad. It's pretty laid back. The people are fairly passive aggressive in communication style, so that may be tough if you are more of a very direct communicator. The outdoors activities out there are second to none, though. Always loved just taking a day trip to go hiking up a small mountain.

Yeah, but OP is comparing them to the Midwest, which includes Minnesota....

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, but OP is comparing them to the Midwest, which includes Minnesota....

PNW wwwayyyyyy more passive aggressive than MN in my experience.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

A year is a big commitment. Internship is understandable but this is a giant mess. The state where I want to obtain licensure prefers that you obtain postdoc hours under supervision of a psychologist licensed in that specific state. Therefore, I don’t see how this postdoc site in the west coast (which is way too fast paced for me) will help me. I don’t see what else I can learn as it’s all outpatient mental health, which I have done before.

I am not getting younger and this year is going to just ruin my life.

So, let's pump the bakes here - let's put some distance between this perceived catastrophe and the potential reality of the situation. If I understand correctly, the state you are aiming prefers, but does not require post-doc hours under the supervision of a psychologist, so, even if you can qualify for licensure without it, what's the problem? Maybe the post-doc can help you in other ways (e.g., patient population, skills, etc.)? If this is true, you would be gaining invaluable experiences at this post-doc, and not have to worry about achieving a set amount of supervised post-doc hours.

Ok, I see everyone’s point. I think moving around too much has created a bit of stress. I do think in black and white terms but I am trying to find ways to find the grey so to speak. I always encourage and promote balanced thinking with clients.

We work in shades of grey...very rarely if at all have I ever found my work to deal with absolutes. Maybe your growth edge (to take an RO-DBT approach) is getting more comfortable with the unknown, with not having as much control in life...to go with the flow at times.

What I am trying to say is that I am scared. I don’t know what’s going to happen in a year. I have never embarked on this kind of journey and lived so far from home.

Of course you are scared - it makes sense. I would be too, and had been when I was in your shoes about a year ago. I am a Texan (proudly I might add); you've seen from my other posts that I've moved around a good deal throughout my life, especially as it relates to both me and my spouse's school/work endeavors. Before I became a psychologist, I was a professional musician - that lifestyle also required me to move around a good deal. I have been far removed from my family and immediate social circle for a good while now. Sometimes it gets easier, other times it doesn't. I take it in stride.

You can do anything for a year. Rather than boil your entire career down to the experiences related to your internship and and post-doc, realize that they offered you a taste of what you can expect in your professional career. Like I have previously stated, most of my graduate education surrounded neuro and rehab, I matched to my 7th internship site, and I did not get the post-doc I desired. I accepted that I was geographically restricted, but I also framed what I did get out of my internship as a positive, and something that actually opened more doors than they closed them. Heck, even in my current VA I am working at I am privileged to do neuropsych testing (in case one of our two neuropsychologists die or retire at the same time I guess). I would spend time digging deep as to what the meanings are associated with not getting the internship and post-doc you wanted. For me, it was thoughts associated with being inadequate, defective, unwanted. I associated them with other times in my life where I felt similarly and it was just an epic pity party for an acute period of time. I also realized that some decision needed to be made, and most things are not permanent. I am doing forensic work and had ZERO prior forensic experiences. I follow the division guidelines as I grow this competency.

In sum, your doctoral education and trainings were not meant to solidify your entire prospective career - it taught you how to execute basic elements of our profession, and to foster a cognitive approach in understanding complex information as to apply it to your professional endeavors. I know of several folks who started off in one specialty and pivoted later in their careers to something different. It's fine to do that. I'd recommend finding what your passions are, and finding ways to align yourself with them. I do this by doing some part-time civil forensic evals in addition to my day job and going to school for the post-doc master's in clinical psychopharm. Again, you can do anything for a year, then re-evaluate. Maybe don't look at your professional career 10 years from now, maybe scale it back to what would you like to see within the next 1-2 years happen. For me, I will be getting things ready for ABPP in clinical to start that by next August. I was so keen on getting double boarded in RP and CN, but seeing how I did not complete a post-doc in either of those specialties, it will not likely happen, but I still want board certification as a testament to my own abilities and growth as a clinician, regardless if I am a generalist or a specialist.

Ok...I have a team meeting to jump into.

P.S. - I wonder if I get any CEUs for carving time out of my schedule for professional development on SDN

 

[WisNeuro]

So I know Minnesota has a reputation of being the most friendly state in the US. I personally don’t know if that’s 100% accurate. From my experience, I find that people in Minnesota are certainly friendly but they don’t necessarily want to be friends with you.

I never had problems making friends in MN. Same as anywhere else, just find people who like similar activities and the rest takes care if itself.

 

[Cam_Chai19]

Your fears about your postdoc are understandable AND I'm concerned you are using this thread to ruminate on the past decision to accept this position and potential ways the year could play out, neither of which is helpful or can be changed at this point. I would suggest you take a step back to reflect on the function of continuing to discuss your postdoc in this forum. I know you said this is venting for you, and while hearing other's perspectives can be helpful, venting itself is rarely productive and is often rumination in disguise.

 

[Cam_Chai19]

I don’t see it that way. I have been able to develop a more balanced perspective of the situation through this forum. I appreciate everyone’s honest feedback.

I'm glad the forum has helped you find some balance. The concern comes from some statements that you've continued to make since your original post in March, including that you shouldn't have ranked or accepted the offer, that you won't learn anything new from the new position, and that there's no way you'll be happy living in this new city for a year. I hope this thread has helped you think more flexibly about these things, but you continue to restate then verbatim. Which in itself could be a form of rumination even if your outlook has changed.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I guess I need to be willing to roll with change? Even if I am in an uncomfortable situation that I never dreamed I would be in this time last year. I am crushed but I will have to get through it. I think I mentioned earlier that I pursued a postdoc program because I wanted new experiences that weren’t available on internship and I ended up blindly accepting a position at a site that doesn’t offer anything new. It’s like a repeat of a rotation and I believe I am going to be treated as nothing more than a glorified work horse.

I guess I can try my best to survive it. I am just sick of constantly having to prove myself. And yes, this situation has triggered some deep rooted insecurities and makes me feel like going here will do nothing more than take away a year of my life.

You can do anything for a year. You will find that on some level, we always will be proving something to someone, such as a hiring manager. You ever done a PBI with the VA? That's 30 minutes and roughly 5-6 questions of you "proving" yourself to a group of folks. I'm afraid even after you being a newly minted psychologist the concept of proving one's self doesn't stop. This is especially true if you seek board certification. Heck, even if you are self-employed in private practice, you will have to "prove" yourself to your patients and referral sources as your quality of work will largely influence who will want to see you, or refer to you.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I guess I need to be willing to roll with change? Even if I am in an uncomfortable situation that I never dreamed I would be in this time last year. I am crushed but I will have to get through it. I think I mentioned earlier that I pursued a postdoc program because I wanted new experiences that weren’t available on internship and I ended up blindly accepting a position at a site that doesn’t offer anything new. It’s like a repeat of a rotation and I believe I am going to be treated as nothing more than a glorified work horse.

I guess I can try my best to survive it. I am just sick of constantly having to prove myself. And yes, this situation has triggered some deep rooted insecurities and makes me feel like going here will do nothing more than take away a year of my life.

Even if it's a complete and total retread of things you've done before (which is unlikely), at the very least, you'll have a year of supervised practice that will help get you licensed. Which is something you'd need to have done regardless, and when done via postdoc, usually makes things easier than via a more informal supervision setup. If it's a formal postdoc, it also likely provides more protections for you as a trainee (e.g., via due process) than would an informal setup.

I suspect you'll see that the differences between internship and postdoc, even when doing the same types of activities, can be significant in terms of the autonomy you're provided and the amount of additional information you learn as a result. It's not a guarantee, but it seems more likely than not.

Also, as another poster mentioned--the process of proving yourself certainly doesn't end with postdoc. You'll face it with job applications and, particularly, your first "grown up" job, anytime you perform forensic work and/or are deposed, and often (as was also said) with patients and other providers, particularly in the world of private practice. Maybe just think of this as skill building in that regard for the future.

And yes, PBI for the VA is its own special brand of fun.

 

[Sanman]

I guess this experience may serve as a warm up for the future!

You will never learn what you like or don't like if you are afraid to try new things. Experiences, good or bad, inform future decisions. Don't be afraid of information.

 

[msc545]

PNW is beautiful with great people. It rains a lot - but that is the major drawback.

 

[veb1922]

I recommend trying DBT dialectical thinking and radical acceptance. It sucks you didn’t get any of your top choices and moving to a brand new city is scary. And you will adapt because you’ve done it before. It’s 1 year out of the average lifespan of 78 years. Grad school entrenches this mindset that we have to get all these things done now because we have a limited amount of time. But that’s not the case for your career. Most post docs try to be as accommodating as they can be about the type of training experiences you want. I know you wanted inpatient or residential experiences and they reportedly don’t offer that, but there might be creative ways for you to get that or foundational things you would need for those jobs (SMI, PRRC. suicidal patients, DBT) if you ask. I’m doing a couples and family postdoc which is a rare postdoc to find, but my internship site (which didn’t really have couples experiences) was willing to find opportunities for me (even with the LMFTs) if I stayed. I ultimately decided not to but I strongly considered it.

 

[Sanman]

I find the people in pnw to be more guarded than anywhere else. It kind of makes me feel unwelcome.

New York City has entered the chat...

 

[Dazen]

Yeah, as someone who grew up on the east coast and has lived in a variety of states PA north, moving the PNW is a breath of friendly fresh air.

 

[WisNeuro]

New York City has entered the chat...

I wouldn't say New Yorkers are guarded, they're just rude and self absorbed. As for the PNW, I don't know if guarded is the right descriptor. Extremely passive aggressive is still the best way I can describe those folks. That made for the most dysfunctional VA setting I've ever seen.

 

[Sanman]

I wouldn't say New Yorkers are guarded, they're just rude and self absorbed. As for the PNW, I don't know if guarded is the right descriptor. Extremely passive aggressive is still the best way I can describe those folks. That made for the most dysfunctional VA setting I've ever seen.

As a native New Yorker, we can be guarded and unfriendly, just part of living in a big city with a lot of scammers and crazy folks. Passive-aggressive, definitely not....just aggressive sometimes.