Postdoc fellowship (clinical psychology): Yes or no

[364462]

Should I do a postdoctoral fellowship?

I am a pre-doctoral intern in clinical psychology here in the East Coast, expecting to complete my dissertation and graduate by this coming June. I do not plan to practice clinical psychology (i.e., treat patients).

After my psychology degree is complete, my hope is to pursue a joint degree in JD/MPH. (Yes, yes. You can moan and groan now.) I hope to integrate my mental health background into the dynamics between public health and international human rights. My longer-term hope is to work in advocacy, mental health policy, and healthcare delivery within the context of human rights abroad.

While I have every intention to infuse my clinical psychology training into my future career, this does not include being a therapist/clinician. The postdoctoral fellowship is required in order to sit for the EPPP and to eventually acquire licensure. However, I wonder if in my particular situation having postdoctoral training has significant cache or meaning into my future work within public health and human rights. Or is it "simply" because it is otherwise required for licensing within the field of clinical psychology?

So, should I still pursue a postdoctoral fellowship?

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[aagman01]

I think half your life will be gone before you contribute much, but if you are set on that.....why not get licensed in a state that does not require a postdoc for licensure. There are like 12 or 14 of those now. Since you won't be practicing, you can still say you are licensed (although it would be a major pain for you to maintain that licensure i would think)

Should I do a postdoctoral fellowship?

I am a pre-doctoral intern in clinical psychology here in the East Coast, expecting to complete my dissertation and graduate by this coming June. I do not plan to practice clinical psychology (i.e., treat patients).

After my psychology degree is complete, my hope is to pursue a joint degree in JD/MPH. (Yes, yes. You can moan and groan now.) I hope to integrate my mental health background into the dynamics between public health and international human rights. My longer-term hope is to work in advocacy, mental health policy, and healthcare delivery within the context of human rights abroad.

While I have every intention to infuse my clinical psychology training into my future career, this does not include being a therapist/clinician. The postdoctoral fellowship is required in order to sit for the EPPP and to eventually acquire licensure. However, I wonder if in my particular situation having postdoctoral training has significant cache or meaning into my future work within public health and human rights. Or is it "simply" because it is otherwise required for licensing within the field of clinical psychology?

So, should I still pursue a postdoctoral fellowship?

 

[Pragma]

Should I do a postdoctoral fellowship?

I am a pre-doctoral intern in clinical psychology here in the East Coast, expecting to complete my dissertation and graduate by this coming June. I do not plan to practice clinical psychology (i.e., treat patients).

After my psychology degree is complete, my hope is to pursue a joint degree in JD/MPH. (Yes, yes. You can moan and groan now.) I hope to integrate my mental health background into the dynamics between public health and international human rights. My longer-term hope is to work in advocacy, mental health policy, and healthcare delivery within the context of human rights abroad.

While I have every intention to infuse my clinical psychology training into my future career, this does not include being a therapist/clinician. The postdoctoral fellowship is required in order to sit for the EPPP and to eventually acquire licensure. However, I wonder if in my particular situation having postdoctoral training has significant cache or meaning into my future work within public health and human rights. Or is it "simply" because it is otherwise required for licensing within the field of clinical psychology?

So, should I still pursue a postdoctoral fellowship?

I can tell you that completing a postdoc is the absolute most painful part of being a clinical trainee. You are overworked and underpaid. I have not heard anyone speak positively about postdoc experiences unless they are really interested in a particular specialization, and even then you are not well compensated.

If you have no intention to do clinical work, I strongly urge you to take an alternative option. If you think that you MAY want to do clinical work, I'd do what the other poster said and take the EPPP in a state not requiring postdoc hours, or suck it up for a year. But the way you describe your goals, it would be a pointless postdoc year that makes little financial sense.

 

[Ollie123]

Funny - everyone I know on post-doc LOVES it. They're putting in far more reasonable hours than grad school, they are more focused (one main location, one main identity) so don't feel spread as thin as grad school. While the salary may not be great, 40k/year allows for a pretty big jump in QOL compared to grad school! Guess it depends where you go.

That said, in this case I'm not certain it makes sense to do a post-doc. If you don't want to get licensed, its other primary purposes is for research/specialization. If you could find researchers who do international advocacy work it would likely be beneficial for you but given what you've said it sounds like you have other plans for how to go about achieving this.

Best of luck! Its certainly an interesting and needed area, though I seriously hope that you went to a funded psychology program and don't have much undergrad debt, otherwise that is going to be a tough hole to climb out of by the time you are done.

 

[Pragma]

Funny - everyone I know on post-doc LOVES it. They're putting in far more reasonable hours than grad school, they are more focused (one main location, one main identity) so don't feel spread as thin as grad school. While the salary may not be great, 40k/year allows for a pretty big jump in QOL compared to grad school! Guess it depends where you go.

I know there is variability and it is all relative. Yes, you are paid more compared to years prior, but I find the whole minimal increase year-by-year to be ridiculous. I have made less as a postdoc than what I made with my undergraduate psychology degree before graduate school.

There will be variability in postdoc hours. Emphasis is typically on clinical productivity, not training, for what you are talking about. You have all the tools except the hours at that point, and you represent cheap labor. Much better for them to get you at 30-40K and make you work 60+ hours a week than to hire someone at a higher rate with their license. Even if your supervisor is a saint, chances are they are feeling the pressure the way health care and reimbursements are these days. It is getting ugly.

It must really depend on your supervisor and other factors, such as if there are other programs affiliated with the postdoc. If it is part of a larger training program, I'd imagine that postdocs would be higher up in the pecking order.

Almost everyone I know who has gone for a CLINICAL postdoc has described it as an extension of indentured servitude, poverty, and often the horrible hours we are used to anyways. On the other hand, I have heard more positive things about research postdocs.

If you want a research or academic career, I have often heard from faculty that a postdoc is a waste of your time.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I know there is variability and it is all relative. Yes, you are paid more compared to years prior, but I find the whole minimal increase year-by-year to be ridiculous. I am still paid less as a postdoc than what I made with my undergraduate psychology degree before graduate school.

There will be variability in postdoc hours. Emphasis is typically on clinical productivity, not training, for what you are talking about. You have all the tools except the hours at that point, and you represent cheap labor. Much better for them to get you at 30-40K and make you work 60+ hours a week than to hire someone at a higher rate with their license. Even if your supervisor is a good person, chances are they are feeling the pressure the way health care and reimbursements are these days. It is getting ugly.

It must really depend on your supervisor and other factors, such as if there are other programs affiliated with the postdoc. If it is part of a larger training program, I'd imagine that postdocs would be higher up in the pecking order.

Almost everyone I know who has gone for a CLINICAL postdoc has described it as an extension of indentured servitude, poverty, and often the horrible hours we are used to anyways. On the other hand, I have heard more positive things about research postdocs.

You have more direct, first-hand experience than me to be sure, but I agree (just based on what I've heard from other post-docs) that it likely largely depends on the setting, with a large amount of variability across sites. I'd think that in some cases, the more "informal" post-docs (e.g., working in a private practice to have someone available to sign off on you supervision hours) might be more apt to take advantage of the situation than if it were in a formal training environment (e.g., hospital, VA). However, the latter can also be fairly notorious for working post-docs pretty hard.

Also, as you mentioned, happiness could vary considerably by specialty. With something like neuropsych, where post-doc is seemingly becoming the rule rather than the exception, things seem to be a bit more standardized in terms of types of experiences and supervision. But even then, I've heard of a decent amount of variability in work load across sites, although as a whole, even the overworked postdocs seem to be relatively happy (or so they say).

 

[Ollie123]

ahhh - I was referring to combined post-docs (i.e. people doing both research and clinical work and will prepare for licensure). Given the person's interests I assumed that was what they were looking at. I have a few friends on these right now and they sound like absolute bliss.

 

[Programmer06]

I am there with you. I completed the PhD in Coun Psy, but my heart really is in administration, policy, program eval. Not that I dont like clinical work, I just want to do other things with my career. So after my "counseling tour", paying my dues type thing, I will be pursing a masters in Public Policy/management in a few years.

With that said, you might look for a post doc/fellowship that has a policy focus. White House/congressional fellowships. Rand and a few other places, cant think of them all off the top of my head. There are also some reputable universities that have post docs that give you the hours you need for licensure, but have research specialties for public health or policy. I believe Yale runs a program of that type as an example.

 

[Pragma]

Also, as you mentioned, happiness could vary considerably by specialty. With something like neuropsych, where post-doc is seemingly becoming the rule rather than the exception, things seem to be a bit more standardized in terms of types of experiences and supervision. But even then, I've heard of a decent amount of variability in work load across sites, although as a whole, even the overworked postdocs seem to be relatively happy (or so they say).

Not to be a downer, but a large part of why I think psychology as a whole is experiencing problems is because of the fact that people try to look on the bright side and paint a rosy picture of things for prospective students, in part because it is the path that they have already chosen for themselves. Whether that is from for-profit schools with low admission standards and huge class sizes, or from people at internships/postdoc sites who don't want to be fully candid.

I have notice a trend that there seem to be more openings for postdocs and fewer for "real" jobs in recent years. I think this reflects the overall economy and healthcare situation, as we will be forced to gradually accept less and less. Hiring a postdoc is cheap and there is an even bigger power differential than if you are a regular employee that isn't on a time-limited contract or depending on your supervisor to sign off on your hours or eligibility for boarding.

 

[docma]

Just for the record: you do not have to do a formal postdoctoral fellowship to acquire licensure (this may vary by state). You do have to pass the EPPP and meet certain requirements (which may include supervised post-doctoral hours and these can be acquired in permanent employment that meets certain requirements by state and this can include work that is not direct service mental health/clinical). So you could get a job in a qualifying policy or advocacy position and, depending on your state, meet licensure requirements as well. Reading your original post, it seems to me you should look for jobs in the international advocacy field and stay alert to those that might also provide supervision so you could acquire credit towards licensure. Having the license is always a good idea...but it may not be necessary for your long term goal, just good insurance of flexibility/versatility. Tedious as it is, you have to go to state websites and read the requirements to know the details. And good for you for figuring out how to use the degree in a way for global benefit.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, as you mentioned, happiness could vary considerably by specialty. With something like neuropsych, where post-doc is seemingly becoming the rule rather than the exception, things seem to be a bit more standardized in terms of types of experiences and supervision. But even then, I've heard of a decent amount of variability in work load across sites, although as a whole, even the overworked postdocs seem to be relatively happy (or so they say).

Formal specialty areas will most certainly require a post-doc. There is still quite a bit of variance in the day to day training, but having standards in place I think really helps. In the neuropsych and rehab psych worlds, there have been some solid efforts to standardize the training (Houston Guidelines for Neuro, and the Baltimore Guidelines for Rehab....the latter are still being formulated).

As for stress and overall view of post-doc/fellowship...most of my colleagues across neuro and rehab training sites generally enjoy their training, but it is a ton of work for the vast majority of us. I don't mind putting in the work because it will make me a better clinician, help me with boarding, and allow me to attend all sorts of interesting didactics given by other departments and specialities.