Obviously, people's opinion. If it wasn't gray, he would be in jail right now.
Pre-Med Accused and Cleared of Rape Charges
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Obviously, people's opinion. If it wasn't gray, he would be in jail right now.
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It's not 'consent at the beginning'. That would be 'she agreed to be tied up, but then changed her mind and asked to be released.'
It is 'she consented to bondage'...which has nothing to do with whether he has consent to hit her with a belt and ignore her cries to stop.
This is not grey, this is not complicated. Consent for activity A ≠ consent for activity B. If you have consent for activity A, you can do activity A, but you cannot do activity B without consent for activity B. Now, sex is a fluid thing, sure...sometimes you start out doing A and you want to shift to B. So maybe you start moving in the direction of doing B and reading the response. You're basically indicating your intentions and then pausing/reevaluating to give the person a chance to communicate their consent/not. However, when 'activity B' is ignoring her response, that sort of fluid 'hey, I want to try this, let's see how it goes' strategy is irresponsible and, frankly, criminal...because you are not giving the person a chance to communicate their consent.
You see, this is completely open to interpretation. When you have sex, do you ask what position is allowed, for what length of time, etc....No. They didn't sign a document or verbally agree as to what was going to happen, and thus it's gray. Maybe you should take up law so you can learn how interpretation works. Also, maybe she wanted to resist, reenact a rape scene, or whatever. We don't actually know that. You are just speculating. I know some people that are into that sort of thing and would actually be into resisting, saying no, etc. I'm not saying that is what happened, since I don't know, just like you don't.
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The problem with this is... even if HE is telling the truth (thru his lawyer), he's still a rapist piece of trash. He put her in a position where consent was impossible.
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As I said...there can absolutely be fluidity, but NOT with "now I am going to try ignoring your verbal withdrawal of consent." You can't just drop that in there without prior discussion. Furthermore, whether or not she would want to try that is completely irrelevant to the fact that he decided that they were going to try that without consulting her first, and giving her zero ability to halt the process once he started.
If you're making out with somebody, and they all of a sudden switch into 'rape fantasy mode' without consulting you, it's not a fantasy rape...it's a real one. How is this grey? How is this not clear?
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Like your opinion that it's a 'grey area' to remove your partner's autonomy over their own body without asking because hey, they might enjoy it?
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This guy might have a chance at a Caribbean School of Medicine. That's as far as he'll get because a background check in any residency program will get his app tossed. Sorry Mr Hossain, you screwed up and now you disappoint your parents!
Again, your examples are completely off point. It would be more accurate to start with, if you start tying someone up and gagging them, and then switch to rape fantasy....regardless, you have your opinion on what happened, and that's fine. But lets just leave it at that. If they try and charge him with sexual assault, I'm sure your example would hold up real well at persuading the judge.
That is not my opinion as I have never said that. That is your flawed interpretation of what I said. I'm not going to even bother with you since you are so set in stating your opinion as fact. Seems like if he had not hit her, she might have been okay with it. From the article it seems like they had sex before when she was tied up. It only changed to rape when he hit her hard....but, hey, you know exactly what happened, so I'm not gonna argue with you.
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See, we're not disagreeing on what happened. We're disagreeing on whether it's OK to revoke someone's ability to withdraw consent. You're apparently cool with it, which is horrifying. So stop acting like you're just withholding judgement until you get the facts, when all of your arguments go to a completely separate point.
It doesn't matter what you're starting from, you can't just switch to rape fantasy without getting crystal clear consent first. Period. My example and yours are identical on the only frakking point that matters. The example you gave? Also rape, by the way. Not a grey area, just rape.
Once again, you are making blanket statements. I am not okay with revoking someone's ability to withdraw consent. Given the context of this story, and everything depends on context, I'm not sure if she withdrew consent. Again, I don't know all the facts. We don't know if there was a safe word....you only have limited information from one news article. Stop BSing until you have court transcripts. You are drawing conclusions on partial information.
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It doesn't matter why she changed her mind, just that she did, and was ignored.
It doesn't matter if she might have enjoyed bondage sex.
It wouldn't even matter if she would have enjoyed rape fantasy roleplaying had it been discussed before hand and she consented to it. Cuz hey, I might enjoy sex with a dude, but if he springs surprise sex on me without asking first? That's rape.
My opinions on these things, your opinions on these things...they don't matter. I'm not saying "I am of the opinion that she never indicated that she might enjoy a rape fantasy at a future date, so it's rape" I'm saying "he did not get consent to roleplay a rape fantasy before doing so, so it is rape."
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She never gave consent for those actions, so there was nothing to withdraw.
Anyhow, @mehc012 , I'm done arguing with you. You believe it was clearly rape, while I believe that maybe it wasn't. I'll leave it at that. I don't endorse this guy and think he had very poor judgement. But I'm really glad we have courts to settle these issues. Also, consent doesn't have to be verbal and this is the real question. Maybe he had her consent, you clearly think otherwise. If it was so clear that he never had her consent, he would be in jail. Anyhow, instead of arguing in circles, I'm going to bow out. I'm not going to pretend I was there or know exactly what happened.
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She said "no, stop". That is verbal for "I DO NOT CONSENT"
The defendant does not even dispute that she said "no, stop".
What more do you effing need?
No, consent does not always have to be verbal, but when there is clear verbal withdrawal of consent, you'd damn well better have something equally (or more) clear in order to ignore that. So in this case? It pretty much has to be verbal, at a minimum. Jeez, what is she supposed to do, write an essay, get it notarized, and then transform it into a neon sign in order to signal her nonconsent clearly enough to count?
To be frank...a safe word. I don't know if they had one. But you always should have a safe word when you engage in BDSM....
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50 Shades of Grey: Do Not Attempt
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Yes, you should. NOT having one puts you at risk of sexually assaulting someone.
...she didn't even know they were roleplaying. 'No' and 'Stop' are the world's default safewords - if you don't clearly discuss things beforehand, you have to listen to 'No' and 'Stop.'
If she didn't even know that they were roleplaying, things were not made clear beforehand.
She was being tied up and didn't think it was role playing? He tied her ankles and not a bleep out of her.....she had previously been tied up, but this time it def wasnt role playing?
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Consent isn't an opinion. It is something that is either there or not. There is no gray area. How is that so hard to understand?
He thought he had consent and didn't consider he "no" to be withdrawing consent. That's the whole case right there. If it was so clear, there is no way he would not be in jail now.
You guys clearly have no idea how the law works. Things are never black and white. Even when someone commits such a heinous crime like murder, there are degrees. In this case, the question is did he have consent from the start and did she withdraw consent. If they had never engaged in any prior encounters like this, it would be much easier to prove rape. As her "no" would be universally accepted. In this case, the judge considered their past encounters in determining if consent was revoked. How is that so hard to understand? Just think of this from a legal standpoint without throwing your emotions into the picture.
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Did you actually read the article mate?
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She hadn't been beaten before. Consenting to and being okay with something she'd tried before doesn't mean she's okay with literally everything the guy could possibly do. If you'd allowed a girl to tie you up before, and she asked "is it okay if we try something dangerous?" And you were like, okay, and then she tied you up, and things seemed like they were status quo, you wouldn't say anything. Now if she then whipped out a car battery and wired it up to your genitals, despite your protests and screaming that it wasn't okay and yelling for her to stop, would you still be consenting by default, because you'd agreed to let her tie you up? Consent to one type of role-play doesn't mean you consent to literally anything a person might want to do. You aren't helplessly consenting once you're tied up, it isn't some bull**** "anything goes" scenario once a person is vulnerable like that. In fact, it's quite the opposite- the person who is vulnerable has all of the control, or at least they're supposed to, specifically because they are vulnerable. This wasn't role playing, which is enjoyable for both parties, this was physical abuse and rape.
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You're listing all of the things that the law does wrong with rape prosecution.
Also, you seem to be having difficulty distinguishing 'bondage' from 'roleplaying', 'beating', and 'rape fantasy'. They are not all the same thing.
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I don't know if my opinion is reflective of others here, but I think the dude's a rapist based on my gut and the testimonies.
I am also not convinced that there was enough evidence to lock him up due to the he said/she said nature of the testimonies.
But based on the defense's response to the testimonies, the physical evidence, and Mr. Hossain's press responses after the court decision, I still think he leaves something to be desired in the humanity department. I can understand the court decision, given the fickle nature of "beyond a reasonable doubt", but that doesn't mean I can't recognize when things are really really screwed up.
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You're right. There's the case. He ignored 'no' and decided that his idea of her consent was more valid than her own.
The fact that you can list that out and not consider it to be rape is, frankly, deeply troubling. I've known actual rapists with a better understanding of consent.
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They had never engaged in an encounter like this. This was an entirely new thing. She had not previously consented to a painful encounter, she had consented to restraint, which is what she likely figured this was. Being into one kink doesn't mean you're into all of them. She definitely withdrew consent. The judge doesn't understand what sex of this sort is like, something that is clear based on both his decision and his statements on the case. His misconceptions about what BDSM is are the only reason he could have possibly let this case slide without trial.
And there's no such thing as just raping someone a little. There's rape and there's consensual sex. There is no gray area, there is no in-between. Some rapes are worse than others, but rape is rape.
She probably had been hit before, just not as hard this time (again, we don't know). She was still consenting when he was hitting her softly. It's only when he asked her to resist and struck her hard that it's difficult to say what exactly happened.
She denied they were re-enacting scenes from "Fifty Shades" and said she didn't know what Hossain meant when he told her he wanted her to resist.
"The two of you were role-playing the movie, correct?" Kutnick asked during cross-examination.
"I didn't see it that way," she replied.
Again, it's he said/she said in regards to the roleplaying and what actually occurred. We don't have her full testimony, so how can you be so sure that it wasn't roleplaying....
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From her description, the no was very clear. He just didn't care. As has been stated previously, any normal person can tell a real no from a fake one. She was struggling and begging him to stop, screaming and crying- there is no way in the ****ing world someone would mistake that for pleasure or a "please keep going."
So strange that you know so many rapists...I find that troubling. Surrounding yourself with so many committed rapist. Clearly you don't understand the law. Glad you aren't a judge or an attorney.
You mean she? The judge is a woman.
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The culmination of your thoughts on the matter would basically make rape between any two people that have ever had sex before without video evidence impossible to prosecute. How is that okay?
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He, she, it really doesn't ****ing matter. The judge doesn't know what the **** they're talking about.
Rape is very hard to prosecute when it's between two people with a history of sex, recently. No disputing that. It's extremely hard to prove, unfortunately. I never said that was okay.
Maybe the defense should have called a BDSM expert to the stand. They can try him again if the judge doesn't know how BDSM works.
Where do you see that this was his defense? Everything I have seen says they agree the encounter began as consensual, and then he claims it remained consensual the whole time while she disagrees. I have literally seen nowhere that he said "he didn't have to listen to her 'no, stop' ". Nothing I have seen addresses his defense to that accusation.
The girl agrees that she consented at first and then did not withdraw consent when he tied her up and had sex with her. If it's true that she told him to stop when he hit her with the belt but he continued to do so, then he deserves to be convicted of physical assault, not sexual assault, as the article linked on here says she consented to the sex but objected to being hit with the belt. But I haven't seen a single thing about him saying he could ignore her saying no. And I haven't seen a single thing where it even says that he agrees or denies that she said no.
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They will probably call experts in if the case moves further. There's much talk of it being taken up by another overlapping jurisdiction.
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The sex occurred after she said 'no, stop'. Just because she otherwise would have had sex with him doesn't mean that he can carry on with that once she says 'no', which would make it rape.
He framed it as "we were roleplaying 50SoG"...which is a novel where pretty much exactly this scenario happens, including the crying and the resisting. The lawyer's questions are basically "yes, that happened, but you guys were reenacting this scene when it happened, no?" rather then "if you no longer wished to continue, why didn't you say 'no' or 'stop'?"
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Also, just fun tidbits from another article on this:
Dude hopes to be a pediatrician
His university didn't let him back on campus even after the judge's ruling. So good luck to him not having this come up.
Dude hopes to be a pediatrician
His university didn't let him back on campus even after the judge's ruling. So good luck to him not having this come up.
You don't know when the sex occurred. For ****s sake, stop acting like you do. Bring out transcripts with quotes. Otherwise don't rely on one news article....
Chiampas asked if the woman had said anything to Hossain when he bound her wrists or while he allegedly sexually assaulted her. She answered no to both questions.
That to me sounds like she didn't object while he was having sex with her (pre-hitting)/
Edit: The only reason I'm adding those quotes, are because that's the only information we have the seems to come directly from a transcript.
C
Cyndaquil MD
Holy crap, how on earth did you get accepted to medical school?
Did you even read the article?
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After removing her remaining clothes, Hossain began striking the woman with another belt. When she asked him to stop, saying “no,” “stop” and “you’re hurting me,” he refused.
Hossain continued striking the woman — including with his fists, according to the Tribune — and “verbally indicated that he would not stop” as the woman shook her head and cried, Campbell told The Post.
It is extremely unlikely this was also not mentioned in court as well. In any case, he's banned from the school, so justice is served. no MD for him, hopefully.
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did UIC ever officially take action against him/give a reinstatement hearing? I'd assume a lot of that will be protected info by FERPA, but I haven't heard anything new from my contacts over there.
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What? How is that one line acceptable, but the direct quotes from the girl's testimony are somehow not valid? You're magically validating one part of the article as 'seems legit, like it came from a transcript', yet invalidating the parts which are labelled as testimony?
If you read the gorram article, particularly the part @madjack quoted, it clearly lays out the timeline. Hitting came before penetration.
So, from the direct quotes it started with
"Hossain refused to tell her what he had in mind"
note the lack of 'hey, are you OK with a rape fantasy roleplay based on the exact scene from the movie that you JUST said scared you?'
then "blindfolded her with a knit cap and then tied her hands above her head to his roommate's lofted bed using belts...he then bound her ankles together with a belt, put a necktie over her mouth as a gag, undressed her and began hitting her softly with a belt."
This was not explicitly consented to, but apparently similar to their prior activities and she did not make any objection. Evidence
"She testified that they had previously experimented with bondage, with Hossain tying her hands together"
and
"All of the [preceding] activity was consensual" and what you quoted before - she did not object verbally to the bondage.
Then: "Hossain told her he wanted her to resist and struck her so hard it hurt, the woman testified, and she began to tell him no, to shake her head, to tell him he was hurting her."
At this point, she said no, she resisted, she became upset. She broke free of some of the bonds, and was retied.
Then:
"Eventually he removed her hands from the bindings, pinned her arms to her back and sexually assaulted her"
So the sex came AFTER the 'no, stop'. All activity should have ceased when she said 'no, stop'. That she did not continue nonstop vocal resistance as he assaulted her does not mean she suddenly wanted it.
So that's the timeline, per the woman's testimony at the damn hearing.
The defendant's lawyer then asserts to the woman " you were role-playing the movie, correct?" and she says "I didn't see it that way". Which...if he wouldn't tell her what he had in mind, how would she know she was supposedly roleplaying 50SoG with him?
Are we all on the same frakking page now?
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Still...at this point he's got to have taken time off...there are enough flags for it to snag attention and further inquiry in the future.
Id shut your mouth. Read the article and watch the video and do some research. I was accepted to many med schools. Maybe it's you that should be asking yourself why you're such a failure
My point was, that without the full court transcripts, we don't have all the facts. The quotes are not even in order if you read the article carefully.
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Quoted for evidence of d-baggery.
