Pre-med question thread full of hypotheticals? Sure, why not!

[TyrKinase]

Preface: I used the search function and found some relevant information but am interested in more input. Also, topics below have been discussed ad nauseum in the pre-med forums, but I'm soliciting input from those on the other side of medical school, so to speak. My apologies if this comes across as obnoxious/overly 'pre-med'.

EPs/EP hopefuls:

So I'm in a special masters program here in Philadelphia, taking a bunch of M1 classes to improve my chances of getting into medical school. So far, it's going okay but not tremendously well so my original goal of attending an allopathic medical school may not pan out for numbers-related reasons.

That being said, I'm still very much interested in becoming a physician and EM is incredibly fascinating to me. Yes, I know everyone changes their minds somewhere between 3 and 17 times about their future specialty while in medical school, but for the sake of this discussion let's just say I magically know that EM is for me.

I see two routes to get their if my current AMCAS application doesn't pan out: US osteopathic medical schools and foreign schools (most likely St. George's University in Grenada). Realizing the importance of landing a (good) residency following graduation from medical school, I'm attempting to parse out the pros/cons for each. It seems like EM is, as a general rule, 'DO-friendly'. I also found that with good USMLE scores, St. George's graduates land EM residencies.

Other factors that could possibly influence my decision: I'm from California and would eventually like to return there; I'm paying for everything with loans; I've traveled to foreign countries so the whole 'culture shock' thing isn't a big concern; unlike many pre-meds, I don't have a lot of my ego tied up in the pointless MD/DO debate.

Many thanks in advance for whatever wisdom you can share.

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[JeetKuneDo]

Preface: I used the search function and found some relevant information but am interested in more input. Also, topics below have been discussed ad nauseum in the pre-med forums, but I'm soliciting input from those on the other side of medical school, so to speak. My apologies if this comes across as obnoxious/overly 'pre-med'.

EPs/EP hopefuls:

So I'm in a special masters program here in Philadelphia, taking a bunch of M1 classes to improve my chances of getting into medical school. So far, it's going okay but not tremendously well so my original goal of attending an allopathic medical school may not pan out for numbers-related reasons.

That being said, I'm still very much interested in becoming a physician and EM is incredibly fascinating to me. Yes, I know everyone changes their minds somewhere between 3 and 17 times about their future specialty while in medical school, but for the sake of this discussion let's just say I magically know that EM is for me.

I see two routes to get their if my current AMCAS application doesn't pan out: US osteopathic medical schools and foreign schools (most likely St. George's University in Grenada). Realizing the importance of landing a (good) residency following graduation from medical school, I'm attempting to parse out the pros/cons for each. It seems like EM is, as a general rule, 'DO-friendly'. I also found that with good USMLE scores, St. George's graduates land EM residencies.

Other factors that could possibly influence my decision: I'm from California and would eventually like to return there; I'm paying for everything with loans; I've traveled to foreign countries so the whole 'culture shock' thing isn't a big concern; unlike many pre-meds, I don't have a lot of my ego tied up in the pointless MD/DO debate.

Many thanks in advance for whatever wisdom you can share.

I too was interested in DO schools that matched into EM and how they matched in certain demographics across the US. Check out this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=90179

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=604991

Near the end, I got a lot of responses about DO schools. From what I've read, and please take this with a grain of salt as I am still a pre-med, a lot of it has to do with away rotations and the location of your school. Of course if you wanted an MD residency, an MD school is the way to go, but if you are gonna do DO and wanted a CA residency, Western would be pretty decent to go to. The reasoning I was told was that programs in california are more familiar with western than another DO school far on the east coast. Also, at western, it would be much easier to do an away rotation at a program of your interest since you live closer to them and dont need to run the expense of flying cross country to do it.

 

[Doctor Bob]

I see two routes to get their if my current AMCAS application doesn't pan out: US osteopathic medical schools and foreign schools (most likely St. George's University in Grenada). Realizing the importance of landing a (good) residency following graduation from medical school, I'm attempting to parse out the pros/cons for each. It seems like EM is, as a general rule, 'DO-friendly'. I also found that with good USMLE scores, St. George's graduates land EM residencies.

While there are always exceptions, the rule usually is it's easier to get a residency of any type as a US grad (doesn't matter if it's DO or MD) than as a foreign grad.

 

[TyrKinase]

While there are always exceptions, the rule usually is it's easier to get a residency of any type as a US grad (doesn't matter if it's DO or MD) than as a foreign grad.

Much appreciated. I've heard as much around the rumor-saturated pre-med forums but it's nice to hear this from someone who is more in the know.

 

[peppy]

The AOA "opportunities" site (http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/index.cfm ) lists 44 osteopathic EM residencies. If you didn't mind coming to a state like Michigan for your residency, I can personally attest (as a DO student at Michigan State who was at one point considering EM for my specialty but yes changed my mind) that we have a lot of high quality EM residencies for DOs in this state.
The field of EM is wide open for DOs.
Good luck.

 

[LadyGrey]

Of course if you wanted an MD residency, an MD school is the way to go...

True for U.S. allopathic school, yes. But from what I've seen, anywhere that has problems with DOs has an even bigger beef with non-U.S. MDs. I know some great people from SGU, but they really have to struggle -- they have to apply to more places but get fewer interviews. There are also more hospitals that won't allow them to rotate there 3rd and 4th year, which puts them at a disadvantage as far as letters and "auditioning."

The debt part: if you get into a public DO school, you can save a lot of money over SGU (or a private DO school).

 

[TyrKinase]

The debt part: if you get into a public DO school, you can save a lot of money over SGU (or a private DO school).

Thanks for the input, LadyGrey. I took a look at the public schools' websites and being an out-of-state (CA) applicant makes most of them as expensive as the private institutions. In the end, an osteopathic medical school with tuition similar to that of SGU still ends up costing less given the better rates on loans I would receive.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

True for U.S. allopathic school, yes. But from what I've seen, anywhere that has problems with DOs has an even bigger beef with non-U.S. MDs. I know some great people from SGU, but they really have to struggle -- they have to apply to more places but get fewer interviews. There are also more hospitals that won't allow them to rotate there 3rd and 4th year, which puts them at a disadvantage as far as letters and "auditioning."

The debt part: if you get into a public DO school, you can save a lot of money over SGU (or a private DO school).

I agree with you LadyGrey. I was trying to compare US MD vs. US DO. If one's goal is EM in CA, and one has a choice between schools, would it increase/decrease that chance by going to a CA DO school vs. a not as prestigious US MD school?

 

[Dr. Ditka]

I agree with you LadyGrey. I was trying to compare US MD vs. US DO. If one's goal is EM in CA, and one has a choice between schools, would it increase/decrease that chance by going to a CA DO school vs. a not as prestigious US MD school?

If you want to go to a California EM residency then I would look at the people that they have in their program now. Take a look at where they went to medical school. EM is very competitive in California and you will see not only mostly MDs but mostly MDs from prestigious medical schools.

As far as being DO or FMG and applying for emergency medicine, DO seems to be a lot easier. I go to a DO school and only applied to allopathic residencies. I saw way more DOs at interviews than FMGs. You can make it happen either way and both are a tougher road than state side MD, but I think DO's definitely have an advantage.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

To match wherever you want in EM: MD >> DO >>>>> FMG
To match at all in EM: MD > DO >>> FMG

Careful with osteopathic emergency residencies, meaning talk to senior residents or recent grads about how the job search has been going for them. Do not rely on assurances from other premeds on SDN about how easy it is to get the perfect job. Do not assume that since people on SDN get all worked up about the MD/DO debate that your career prospects are exactly equal coming from either situation.

Good luck!

 

[Evil Eye]

I agree with all the sentiments so far...DO >>> FMG in terms of matching a residency in the US, particularly in a DO friendly field like EM. I was talking to a 4th year FMG from somewhere the other day (can't remember)...he said his class had over 1000 people in it. I guarantee you're not going to get enough personal attention in an environment like that.

If you can get over the DO title (which isn't an issue out there in the real world, more of a pre-med phenomena, no offense), definitely go DO.

 

[RxnMan]

To match wherever you want in EM: MD >> DO >>>>> FMG
To match at all in EM: MD > DO >>> FMG

Careful with osteopathic emergency residencies, meaning talk to senior residents or recent grads about how the job search has been going for them. Do not rely on assurances from other premeds on SDN about how easy it is to get the perfect job. Do not assume that since people on SDN get all worked up about the MD/DO debate that your career prospects are exactly equal coming from either situation.

Good luck!

I agree. I've spoken to a lot of DO and US-FMG rotators. The FMGs have good scores (though there may be some selection bias), but they don't get the same response for that score that US MD/DOs get. From what I've heard speaking to DO EM applicants (admittedly few), there are some hard places to get into, but the large majority of places are open to DOs.

The people who are most informed are those just ahead of you who just went through the residency interview process.

 

[TyrKinase]

Many thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. It looks like staying in the States will be the right decision, assuming some school out there likes me enough to offer me a spot.

Now back to the histology slides... there isn't any microscopy in the ED, is there?

 

[deleted65604]

In my residency, we had to look at all of our own wet preps. That started when the residency started as a ploy to get more money (be able to bill for the wet prep exam, rather than let the lab bill for it). The problem was, most of the attendings didn't really know a clue cell from a WBC. You basically had to teach yourself what to look for.