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Thank you
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Preclinical grades +/- system. Do they matter?
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Better to keep your sanity and take time for yourself 100%. Don't get caught up in how other people around you are doing as long as you're doing well yourself and feel you are putting in the work to get what you deserve. Preclinical grades mean very very little in the grand scheme of things.
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Boards >> Clinical Grades >> Research >>> Class Rank >>> Preclinical Grades.
Depends on where you are in your class rank with those 85s. If that puts you above average (it should) then I say keep doing that.
Preclinical grades only matter if you fail something.
A lot of schools stopped ranking, so even class rank is meaning less and less every year.
PDs only need to answer 3 questions:
1) Can he handle consistent stress? (Passing everything on the first try)
2) How smart is he? (Step 1 score)
3) Is he a dip****? (Clinical grades)
A lot of schools stopped ranking, so even class rank is meaning less and less every year.
PDs only need to answer 3 questions:
1) Can he handle consistent stress? (Passing everything on the first try)
2) How smart is he? (Step 1 score)
3) Is he a dip****? (Clinical grades)
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Stop thinking like a pre-med. Your preclinical grades don't matter to program directors. See here for what does:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
D
deleted731525
But it does seem like class rank matters a bit. And wouldnt preclinical grades make up half of your class rank(or even more since you wont have all your clinical grades by the time you are applying to residency)?
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Obviously, one goes with another, but instead of striving for the best grades because you're a gunner, strive for them because mastery of content goes hand in hand with high Board scores, and THAT is what PDs want to see.
Note from the servey that class rank valued by some specialties more than others.
Note from the servey that class rank valued by some specialties more than others.
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The EM survey validated what I've been saying forever. Clinical performance in EM, SLOEs (standardized LORs for EM), audition rotations, professionalism, interest in the specialty, etc... they all scored higher in importance than how high ones board scores were. Passing boards was a VERY important, but scoring high wasn't as important as many of the factors that PD's really look for in EM candidates. Not saying scoring well isn't important, it is, but there are many things that are equally important or more important that often times get misunderstood by students as not nearly as important as scoring high on step 1/2.
As for the OP's question...
Preclinical grades and class rank (which is almost always just based off pre-clinical grades at most schools) are not really important at all. At least from my perspective in EM. I don't know ANYONE who interviews at my place who has ever brought up someones preclinical grades to justify ranking someone higher or lower. They are probably the least likely thing to help ones application, on the level of a personal statement.
Clinical grades, ESPECIALLY in your chosen field and solid auditions at some of the places you are applying is most important. PD's like the known over the unknown. If someone rotates at your shop and they are an all star, or if someone rotated at other EDs and has great LORs proclaiming them an All Star, you absolutely would be crazy to take someone with average LORs because they scored higher on their boards or in their preclinical courses.
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Do preclinical grades matter? Sure, because your grades usually correlate with how well you know the material, which will then lead to higher boards scores. So yes, they will matter indirectly.
And as far as class rank, you can see from the survey that it doesn't seem to be all that important, however, I have spoken with two program directors and they told me that they absolutely care about class rank and preclinical grades (orthopedics/dermatology). I am not saying at all that this is the norm, but just letting you know that there ARE some residencies that do care.
IMO, do your best in med school. If you study hard, your grades will reflect that, your class rank will follow, and your board scores will be better. Something else to think about as well is that during your first two years of school you need to be figuring out how you learn and get your study habits perfected. If you are barely passing classes and at the bottom of your class, you think all of a sudden you are gonna have an epiphany and all of a sudden start studying effectively? Could it happen? Yeah. Will it? Maybe.
Same logic applies to undergrad as well. Someone with a 2.0 prolly isn't hitting 35+ on the MCAT. Are their outliers, sure. But it is shown that your grades are what correlate best with your board scores.
And as far as class rank, you can see from the survey that it doesn't seem to be all that important, however, I have spoken with two program directors and they told me that they absolutely care about class rank and preclinical grades (orthopedics/dermatology). I am not saying at all that this is the norm, but just letting you know that there ARE some residencies that do care.
IMO, do your best in med school. If you study hard, your grades will reflect that, your class rank will follow, and your board scores will be better. Something else to think about as well is that during your first two years of school you need to be figuring out how you learn and get your study habits perfected. If you are barely passing classes and at the bottom of your class, you think all of a sudden you are gonna have an epiphany and all of a sudden start studying effectively? Could it happen? Yeah. Will it? Maybe.
Same logic applies to undergrad as well. Someone with a 2.0 prolly isn't hitting 35+ on the MCAT. Are their outliers, sure. But it is shown that your grades are what correlate best with your board scores.
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If we are going to go off of anecdotal statements, I have met numerous 4th students on the interview trail and not a single one has given me an account of a program director ever bringing up preclinical grades.
I think what others (those wh believe rank and preclinical grades matter) are getting at is of course program directors will care about your grades/class rank if 1) you failed courses 2) you are ranked low and on the other spectrum of if you are AOA (which as a DO student, don't even worry about it because you won't be getting that) or if you are SSP (which for the vast majority of ACGME programs a PD won't even know what the hell SSP is or know that it's a joke of a an honors society staying in the top 40% of the class).
I'm going to stick by the Program Directors Survey and state that the importance factor cited for preclinical grades/class rank was LOWER than that of leadership skills, the interview, failed attempts on USMLE/COMLEX, Letters of Recommendation, Audition Rotations, Perceived Commitment to Specialty, Feedback from Residents.
Yes doing well in years 1-2 correlate to doing well on boards. But don't even think for a second the kid at the top 30% chance doesn't have a chance at killing boards. Anecdotal statement: I am aware of derm resident who stated they were middle of the road in class rank but killed boards.
As word of advice to those who are reading this thread as well, @gamerEMdoc is an associate program director for a residency program and understands fully what is important. There will be differences and variation on what is emphasized per program or in different specialties (such as ortho and derm) but when you take a look at all of the NRMP surveys across multiple specialties you'll see trends similar to what GamerERdoc has stated and what I have stated.
I think what others (those wh believe rank and preclinical grades matter) are getting at is of course program directors will care about your grades/class rank if 1) you failed courses 2) you are ranked low and on the other spectrum of if you are AOA (which as a DO student, don't even worry about it because you won't be getting that) or if you are SSP (which for the vast majority of ACGME programs a PD won't even know what the hell SSP is or know that it's a joke of a an honors society staying in the top 40% of the class).
I'm going to stick by the Program Directors Survey and state that the importance factor cited for preclinical grades/class rank was LOWER than that of leadership skills, the interview, failed attempts on USMLE/COMLEX, Letters of Recommendation, Audition Rotations, Perceived Commitment to Specialty, Feedback from Residents.
Yes doing well in years 1-2 correlate to doing well on boards. But don't even think for a second the kid at the top 30% chance doesn't have a chance at killing boards. Anecdotal statement: I am aware of derm resident who stated they were middle of the road in class rank but killed boards.
As word of advice to those who are reading this thread as well, @gamerEMdoc is an associate program director for a residency program and understands fully what is important. There will be differences and variation on what is emphasized per program or in different specialties (such as ortho and derm) but when you take a look at all of the NRMP surveys across multiple specialties you'll see trends similar to what GamerERdoc has stated and what I have stated.
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To clarify... i know what is important to me and my program. Which is backed up by the PD survey for EM, and I assume is more generalized across the country; but I certainly cant speak for every program, and DEFINITELY NOT for every field of medicine.
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First, like I said in my post, I know that it isn't the NORM for PDs to care about preclinical grades/rank. If they did, it would obviously show in the PD Survey. What I was getting at is that there ARE some (not many most likely) places that do care (and I mentioned two places). I wasn't saying anything more or less. I am not implying by my n=2 that this is the case overall. I also said that your grades will matter "indirectly" because it will reflect in your board score, which we can both agree are important to the PD.
Second, I never said anything about people in the top 30% not being able to do well on boards. I didn't even say top 50%. I said "bottom of your class." I am pretty sure that most people are in agreement that if you are sitting in the bottom 10% of your class, you MOST LIKELY aren't going to be setting board records.
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Again, the question is "do preclinical grades matter to PDs". And we both agree for the most part that they do but not to the extent of if a PD sees you got a B/C grade in preclinical neurosciences that you aren't cut for neurology if your board scores are great, you have good research, you have letters.
Exceptions are there. Competitive specialties are going to comb through your class rank more so than an FM or PM&R program.
Now if we aren't addressing the main question about it mattering to PDs. Yes better preclinical grades means a better mastery of the material means a stronger chance of doing well on boards. So they matter in that sense.
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Thanks for the clarification, bro. Now let's play some ping pong.
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this is breathtaking
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a word of caution to the "preclinical grades don't matter" crowd:
they matter in the sense that students who put in the time to prepare for exams and master the material tend to do better on the boards. also, some schools (mine, for example) base AOA membership on preclinical grades.
it seems that the purpose of this thread is to find some people to reassure you that your grades don't matter. since you're at a DO school, i'd encourage you to put in the time now to separate yourself and be competitive for specialties you might be interested in. if you're not gunning for a competitive residency, then yes, enjoy yourself a little more
edit: i see goro has already clarified to basically say this
they matter in the sense that students who put in the time to prepare for exams and master the material tend to do better on the boards. also, some schools (mine, for example) base AOA membership on preclinical grades.
it seems that the purpose of this thread is to find some people to reassure you that your grades don't matter. since you're at a DO school, i'd encourage you to put in the time now to separate yourself and be competitive for specialties you might be interested in. if you're not gunning for a competitive residency, then yes, enjoy yourself a little more
edit: i see goro has already clarified to basically say this
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see bolded. the more appropriate question isn't whether, retrospectively speaking, preclinical grades "matter". they clearly do not very much. a far more relevant question to the OP and to 1st/2nd year students, as i alluded to in my previous post, is, prospectively, should i care about how i do in preclinical classes? the answer is obviously yes, because you will be better prepared for the boards if you take the time to do well
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Absolutely. The grade doesn't matter, but learning the material does. If you did poorly on an exam because of something that happened in your life, then it doesn't matter. But if you did poorly on all your exams because you weren't learning the material, then when you start to work clinically on rotation it will become obvious that your knowledge base isn't as good as others, you'll do worse on boards, etc.
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It depends on the person, but I've never been one to care about the details just so I can get an extra few questions right on the test. In my mind it just isn't worth all the extra hours to get like a 4% boost on the test. I'd rather learn the material well enough to the point where I'm comfortable, get a decent score on the test, and move on while enjoying other parts of my life. Nothing wrong with other approaches though, whatever works works.
