Pregnancy During Med School/Residency

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This is freakin' ironic.

What if they didn't get married until residency? What if they have been trying SINCE medical school and now, after years and thousands of dollars of fertility treatments, they're finally having a successful pregnancy? What if their program is 5 or 6 years long, should they put off their family to make YOUR life easier for a few months? What if they're a non-trad and already pushing, or into, advanced maternal age?

+ All of these reasons.

If a woman has to have a child during residency or likely not at all, it'll be a lot tougher on her than it will be on you.

Women have a huge biological burden to carry children for the men they reproduce with, and unless you want to ban women from the workplace, it'll be an issue for you in any field you choose. People have to take time off sometimes. Life isn't fair. Blah blah blah. What's wrong with just being kind?

I think people are attacking you because you used the phrase "knocked up" like it's some irresponsible teenager.
 
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Actually, patients suck; they're the ones that are making all of the work for us in the first place.
 
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How bad would it be to interview at a med school while you are pregnant? If I don't get accepted this year, my fiance and I are thinking of taking the plunge. But, that means I will be pregnant during the Spring of next year (potentially during interviews). How is pregnancy looked at in interviews?
 
Geekchick: A short answer on a forum isn't a one size fits all answer. Extenuating circumstances are extenuating circumstances.

Twentyone: Get a grip on yourself. I'd gladly cover for anyone (male OR female) that had a death in the family. Sexual intercourse isn't an accident.

You two need to relax. You also might want to look into things like condoms, birth control pills, and IUDs. I'd suggest http://www.familyplanning.org/ as a good place to start. I'll let you guys have the last word now since I'm just going to get piled upon by selfish mothers.

O rly?

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How bad would it be to interview at a med school while you are pregnant? If I don't get accepted this year, my fiance and I are thinking of taking the plunge. But, that means I will be pregnant during the Spring of next year (potentially during interviews). How is pregnancy looked at in interviews?

IMO, I wouldn't postpone trying to conceive because of interviewing, but I'm obviously a big believer in not putting one major part of your life on hold for the other if you can help it. You have a few things to consider, too.

How far along would you be in the spring? One, if you apply early, most of your interviews will probably be in the fall and winter, not the spring. Two, I'm assuming this is your first baby, so keep in mind it's likely that you won't really start to show for awhile. Especially with an interview jacket on, it's going to be pretty hard to notice a baby bump before somewhere around 15 weeks, maybe more, particularly if you're taller. Three, you may not get pregnant right away, even if there's no reason for you not to. Four, interviewers are never allowed to ask you if you're pregnant or plan on becoming pregnant in the near future. I know this is the case with job interviews, and I would think the same applies for professional school.

Obviously, if you're very pregnant, they'll probably know, and unfortunately a school may choose not to accept you for that reason. That said, if a school likes you otherwise but bases their decision about you on the fact that you're starting a family, is it really the school for you? I, personally, wouldn't want anything to do with them, but that's just my $0.02.
 
People have babies more often during med school than most of the above posters think.

I've known several people that have had babies during medical school and not one of them took a year off. Pregnant residents are not an uncommon sight either, unless you're in a specialty like surgery.

Its really not that big of a deal.
 
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And would you know them? Probably not. Quick question, kcin. What if you end up fathering a child? Would you take any time off? If not, your SO will love that. And if you do, well, clearly, you're an inconsiderate bastard, by your own designation, right?

Also, newsflash, birth control is not fool proof, even surgical sterilization. :idea:

1) I knew a guy who's wife delivered during his intern year. You know how much time he was allowed off? One day- the day that she actually delivered. As soon as that 24 hour period was over, it was back in the saddle taking call.

2) No one forces a woman to stay pregnant. It's always the woman's choice. It's selfish to expect your other students, or your co-workers, to make up for your slackness just because you managed to get knocked up. It was your choice, and you should be an adult and accept the consequences of that decision. That may mean taking a year off from medical school. If so, that was your call. But you're a fool if you think you can give birth and then get back into that gross anatomy lab in a week. That's not at all realistic.
 
1) I knew a guy who's wife delivered during his intern year. You know how much time he was allowed off? One day- the day that she actually delivered. As soon as that 24 hour period was over, it was back in the saddle taking call.

:bullcrap: I find it VERY hard to believe that's all he was "allowed". Even if he's not guaranteed FMLA (which applies to fathers, not just mothers) because he hasn't been employed with the hospital long enough, interns still get vacation time. At the very least he could have switched days with his coworkers.

2) No one forces a woman to stay pregnant. It's always the woman's choice. It's selfish to expect your other students, or your co-workers, to make up for your slackness just because you managed to get knocked up. It was your choice, and you should be an adult and accept the consequences of that decision. That may mean taking a year off from medical school. If so, that was your call. But you're a fool if you think you can give birth and then get back into that gross anatomy lab in a week. That's not at all realistic.

Hold up... so working women should never get pregnant, or keep a baby. Ever.

Wow.

You can think it's "selfish" all you want, but there isn't even a WORD for implying that a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy so as not to "inconvenience" her coworkers or classmates. Give me a freakin' break.

I'm a fool? Or unrealistic? I was back in classes three weeks after my daughter was born, and the only reason I was out that long was because I had her DURING winter break. Pretty damn sure I pulled straight A's that semester as well, not to mention that I beat the piss out of the MCAT a year later when I spent the majority of my study time with her in the room with me, and working, to boot. Twit.
 
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1) I knew a guy who's wife delivered during his intern year. You know how much time he was allowed off? One day- the day that she actually delivered. As soon as that 24 hour period was over, it was back in the saddle taking call.

2) No one forces a woman to stay pregnant. It's always the woman's choice. It's selfish to expect your other students, or your co-workers, to make up for your slackness just because you managed to get knocked up. It was your choice, and you should be an adult and accept the consequences of that decision. That may mean taking a year off from medical school. If so, that was your call. But you're a fool if you think you can give birth and then get back into that gross anatomy lab in a week. That's not at all realistic.
If you think that just because that is the way something IS, that this is proof that it SHOULD be like that....then that is worrisome.

I'm scared how many people in here sound a little resentful that women are allowed to be doctors at all. Or, rather, that SINCE they are allowed to be doctors, this precludes them from having a family by way of pregnancy.

There is almost never a "good" time to get pregnant. It is the best joke in the world. Pregnancy lasts for around 40 weeks, can sometimes suck, and then generally ends with a surprise (in timing) marathon at the end.

So, guess what....you know IN ADVANCE that you are going to work with women. And, that those women may get pregnant. And, that it may cause more work for you. (BTW, at the moment, a resident I work with is covering nights for another MALE residen't who just had a baby....it isn't just the girls you need to cover for, folks). So, since you know this, and don't like it...uh....why are you choosing this job? You know legally that this is a protected right. In fact, any change that happens is most likely NOT to be in your favor (giving people more time off instead of less). So, why don't YOU opt out instead of telling people to opt out of pregnancy?
 
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:bullcrap: I find it VERY hard to believe that's all he was "allowed". Even if he's not guaranteed FMLA (which applies to fathers, not just mothers) because he hasn't been employed with the hospital long enough, interns still get vacation time. At the very least he could have switched days with his coworkers.



Hold up... so working women should never get pregnant, or keep a baby. Ever.

Wow.

You can think it's "selfish" all you want, but there isn't even a WORD for implying that a woman needs to terminate a pregnancy so as not to "inconvenience" her coworkers or classmates. Give me a freakin' break.

I'm a fool? Or unrealistic? I was back in classes three weeks after my daughter was born, and the only reason I was out that long was because I had her DURING winter break. Pretty damn sure I pulled straight A's that semester as well, not to mention that I beat the piss out of the MCAT a year later when I spent the majority of my study time with her in the room with me, and working, to boot. Twit.

True story. He was in a super high demand residency and he was only allowed 24 hours off. Choose not to believe me to your own detriment.

I think that's great that you were lucky enough to recover so quickly from your childbirth, but one birth is not like the other. Each birth is different. Even if, however, you are planning on "only" taking 3 weeks off, 3 weeks off in medical school can be a big deal. Medical school isn't undergrad. And you just got lucky having her on winter break, since you seem so obstinate about the idea of scheduling your birth. Things very well could have gone very differently for you if you would have had her, say, the week of finals as opposed to during winter break.

Anyway, I wouldn't cover for you in lab for 3 weeks. You're lucky if you find someone who would be willing to sacrifice their own chance of success just because you decided to have a baby. Maybe that person is out there. Or maybe you'll have to drop back a year. Wouldn't be the end of the world. It's just an extra year. If men could give birth, I would say the same thing. It would be sort of like a man choosing to have elective surgery in the middle of his MS1 year and then expecting his classmates to cover for him. Not everyone is going to be overflowing with sympathy for a situation that you voluntarily chose. Welcome to adulthood.
 
If you think that just because that is the way something IS, that this is proof that it SHOULD be like that....then that is worrisome.

I'm scared how many people in here sound a little resentful that women are allowed to be doctors at all. Or, rather, that SINCE they are allowed to be doctors, this precludes them from having a family by way of pregnancy.

There is almost never a "good" time to get pregnant. It is the best joke in the world. Pregnancy lasts for around 40 weeks, can sometimes suck, and then generally ends with a surprise (in timing) marathon at the end.

So, guess what....you know IN ADVANCE that you are going to work with women. And, that those women may get pregnant. And, that it may cause more work for you. (BTW, at the moment, a resident I work with is covering nights for another MALE residen't who just had a baby....it isn't just the girls you need to cover for, folks). So, since you know this, and don't like it...uh....why are you choosing this job? You know legally that this is a protected right. In fact, any change that happens is most likely NOT to be in your favor (giving people more time off instead of less). So, why don't YOU opt out instead of telling people to opt out of pregnancy?

It's not a protected right unless you've been working at the institution for at least 1 year. In other words, it's not a protected right during your intern year. You have no recourse under FMLA.
 
It's not a protected right unless you've been working at the institution for at least 1 year. In other words, it's not a protected right during your intern year. You have no recourse under FMLA.


So....you're telling me to wait 4 months to get pregnant. Check.
 
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How bad would it be to interview at a med school while you are pregnant? If I don't get accepted this year, my fiance and I are thinking of taking the plunge. But, that means I will be pregnant during the Spring of next year (potentially during interviews). How is pregnancy looked at in interviews?

So yeah...as you can see from the level of mysogyny around here that people do not believe that women deserve the right to procreate and be full time students or in the workforce. I'm going to be honest with you, you take your chances showing up for an interview pregnant. You have to balance how much you want that next step (med school, residency, desirable fellowship, job, etc.) with how long and hard and expensively you've been trying to get pregnant.

And believe me some of the most vicious attitudes will be from women who doubt their own choices or regret what they've put off and/or sacrificed.

In general, real life happens, whether it's planned or not, and hopefully, we'll continue to have the choice to go with it or not.
 
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I had my first interview for residency when I was 3 weeks postpartum and I talked about my new daughter everywhere I went. I matched in my top 3 and couldn't be happier. :)

(ETA: not primary care, in case anyone is wondering)
 
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True story. He was in a super high demand residency and he was only allowed 24 hours off. Choose not to believe me to your own detriment.

I think that's great that you were lucky enough to recover so quickly from your childbirth, but one birth is not like the other. Each birth is different. Even if, however, you are planning on "only" taking 3 weeks off, 3 weeks off in medical school can be a big deal. Medical school isn't undergrad. And you just got lucky having her on winter break, since you seem so obstinate about the idea of scheduling your birth. Things very well could have gone very differently for you if you would have had her, say, the week of finals as opposed to during winter break.

Anyway, I wouldn't cover for you in lab for 3 weeks. You're lucky if you find someone who would be willing to sacrifice their own chance of success just because you decided to have a baby. Maybe that person is out there. Or maybe you'll have to drop back a year. Wouldn't be the end of the world. It's just an extra year. If men could give birth, I would say the same thing. It would be sort of like a man choosing to have elective surgery in the middle of his MS1 year and then expecting his classmates to cover for him. Not everyone is going to be overflowing with sympathy for a situation that you voluntarily chose. Welcome to adulthood.
too bad you don't have any labmates to cover for next year...
 
Isn't medical school already somewhat expensive and stressful as it is? Why would someone add the cost of pregnancy and the additional stree on top of it?

Genuine question, I have no experience in either pregnancy nor medical school or both.
 
Interesting to see the pre-meds fighting the residents and attendings on this topic.

Why dont you all get in to medical school before you start complaining about picking up someone else's work. Life doesnt stop in school.

Honestly though, I'm shocked to see the level of immaturity and egoism in this thread amongst you students who want to work for these physicians. Good freaking luck
 
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Look, I don't mean to be harsh. I'm just trying to add some adult perspective to the discussion. I think it's absolutely wonderful that all of the pregnant/soon-to-be pregnant women on this forum are able to bear children. And I am not at all a misogynist. I love women! I'm actually quite the feminist.

However, I do think it's immature to assume that other people will be willing to cover for you after the birth of your baby. Part of being an adult is accepting responsibility for your actions, even if those actions are bringing another child into this world. We all make choices in our lives and have to live with those choices. Choosing to give birth is a choice. You chose to have sex, and then you chose to carry the pregnancy. You chose to become a parent. Parenthood is a wonderful journey, so I applaud everyone who embarks on it. However, your decision to become a parent should not affect any one else's situation or schooling. If it does, that's not fair. So, if it were me and my lab partner didn't pull her/his weight by being persistently absent, it wouldnt' really matter the reason, I would not be angry (because I'm not an angry person), but I wouldn't allow that to hurt me. In other words, I would request a new lab partner or speak to the professor. I know I'm not alone in this. Again, part of being an adult is realizing that we do not live in a vacuum. Our actions have consequences, even possibly consequences for those around us.

If you think that you can give birth and then be back in class the next week, I think that's amazing. Good luck. I do believe it's unrealistic, but maybe you can do that and if you can, go for it. If you can't, though, you're not a failure if you drop back a year. It's not the end of the world.
 
Look, I don't mean to be harsh. I'm just trying to add some adult perspective to the discussion. I think it's absolutely wonderful that all of the pregnant/soon-to-be pregnant women on this forum are able to bear children. And I am not at all a misogynist. I love women! I'm actually quite the feminist.

However, I do think it's immature to assume that other people will be willing to cover for you after the birth of your baby. Part of being an adult is accepting responsibility for your actions, even if those actions are bringing another child into this world. We all make choices in our lives and have to live with those choices. Choosing to give birth is a choice. You chose to have sex, and then you chose to carry the pregnancy. You chose to become a parent. Parenthood is a wonderful journey, so I applaud everyone who embarks on it. However, your decision to become a parent should not affect any one else's situation or schooling. If it does, that's not fair. So, if it were me and my lab partner didn't pull her/his weight by being persistently absent, it wouldnt' really matter the reason, I would not be angry (because I'm not an angry person), but I wouldn't allow that to hurt me. In other words, I would request a new lab partner or speak to the professor. I know I'm not alone in this. Again, part of being an adult is realizing that we do not live in a vacuum. Our actions have consequences, even possibly consequences for those around us.

If you think that you can give birth and then be back in class the next week, I think that's amazing. Good luck. I do believe it's unrealistic, but maybe you can do that and if you can, go for it. If you can't, though, you're not a failure if you drop back a year. It's not the end of the world.

And part of being an adult means that sometimes you just have to put on the big boy pants and deal with what gets thrown at you. Not sure what you're going to do when there's no one to go and complain to and it's finally time to just suck it up and deal with the fact that every now and then, things deviate from "fair".

Gross anatomy is at most schools a maximum of one year, and at many schools much less than that. At mine it ran from start of term to Thanksgiving. I had a lab partner who hated anatomy and found she studied more efficiently on her own and gave up coming to lab. Big freaking deal. Even if it was a huge pain then (it wasn't), it was three months out of my life. If we were talking about residency, I'd probably be more willing to entertain your position. But as far as how someone's baby impacts your ability in Gross Lab: +pity+
 
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Oh pre-allo is funny sometimes. I had a quiet call night last night so I checked it out and then decided to follow this thread.

Pre-clinical years of med school are not exactly a team sport folks. There is really and truly no "slack" to pick up from another person. I promise. Even in gross anatomy. Clinical years it is completely irrelevant to your education whether a classmates takes time off or not.

People will have babies in your medical school class, maybe even you. Its really not a big deal.
 
It's scary because you're pretending to know what I think based upon very limited information.

All I said is that I'd rather not have to cover for someone that became pregnant during residency. It's a selfish wish, but not nearly as selfish as the woman choosing to be pregnant during residency. I could understand if it wasn't intentional, but a little family planning could relieve co-residents of an unnecessary burden. Residency just seems like a bad time. Why not during med school or after residency? All I'm saying is a little consideration of coworkers would be a good thing.

Are you sure it's as selfish as YOU not wanting to help someone else out during what should be more or less a very happy part in anyone's life (pregnancy+childbirth)? Sometimes these things are out of one's control, and we should be supportive of their special part of our coworker's life!
 
Sometimes these things are out of one's control, and we should be supportive of their special part of our coworker's life!

I'm sorry. I didn't know we subscribed to the stork theory of pregnancy here.

edit: I think all of us on the unpopular side of this discussion would be supportive or helpful if a female coworker took a leave of absence to have a child. It would be helpful for some of the posters in this thread to remember that, and to reread what we have actually said before calling us out as misogynists. It is simply a wish to be able to live our lives at the same time. Some times are better than others to have a child, and intern year isn't one of the best times. I would feel the same about any other similar situation.
 
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Those arguing that women shouldn't have kids because it's an inconvenience to coworkers are completely preposterous. By that logic, women should stay in the kitchen where they belong or remain childless forever. There will never be a situation where a women having a child will have zero effect on her coworkers.

What if you had an option to leave your job for a better position elsewhere? That's selfish and leaves your coworkers in a lurch while they find a replacement, so you should never do that. What if you want to go on a vacation? Well then someone has to pick up your slack for a week, so you're not allowed to peace off to Hawaii.

What if your wife got really ill while you were working and you had to take time off to care for her? That's a choice too- you don't HAVE to care for her, you could hire an aid to do that. So I hope that if your spouse ever gets sick, you are at work the next day- you wouldn't want to inconvenience your coworkers.

Do you see how absurd this argument is? Women make the medical workforce a better, more diverse place. They also have lives that involve having children. There's a thing called work-life balance, and it makes everyone's work life better. That means picking up more slack sometimes so you can get the privilege of taking time off when YOU need to.
 
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I'm sorry. I didn't know we subscribed to the stork theory of pregnancy here.

edit: I think all of us on the unpopular side of this discussion would be supportive or helpful if a female coworker took a leave of absence to have a child. It would be helpful for some of the posters in this thread to remember that, and to reread what we have actually said before calling us out as misogynists. It is simply a wish to be able to live our lives at the same time. Some times are better than others to have a child, and intern year isn't one of the best times. I would feel the same about any other similar situation.

Where did you get the idea that I believe in stork theory? I'm not Brittany from Glee!

Sometimes pregnancies can be out of our control--condom misuse/failure, for one thing. I will admit that having to "pick up the slack" when a teammate is pregnant is going to definitely be a bitch, but would I support and help the other person? Yes.
 
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Where did you get the idea that I believe in stork theory? I'm not Brittany from Glee!

:laugh:

Sometimes pregnancies can be out of our control--condom misuse/failure, for one thing. I will admit that having to "pick up the slack" when a teammate is pregnant is going to definitely be a bitch, but would I support and help the other person? Yes.

You're forgetting the part where it's been implied women in this situation should abort:

No one forces a woman to stay pregnant.
 
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You could try reading the posts in the thread before posting your ignorant rant. Nobody said never have kids or that they wouldn't be willing to accommodate. The hostility in this thread is coming from people like you and twentyone that are rushing to say how bad we are and that we hate women.

Those arguing that women shouldn't have kids because it's an inconvenience to coworkers are completely preposterous. By that logic, women should stay in the kitchen where they belong or remain childless forever. There will never be a situation where a women having a child will have zero effect on her coworkers.

What if you had an option to leave your job for a better position elsewhere? That's selfish and leaves your coworkers in a lurch while they find a replacement, so you should never do that. What if you want to go on a vacation? Well then someone has to pick up your slack for a week, so you're not allowed to peace off to Hawaii.

What if your wife got really ill while you were working and you had to take time off to care for her? That's a choice too- you don't HAVE to care for her, you could hire an aid to do that. So I hope that if your spouse ever gets sick, you are at work the next day- you wouldn't want to inconvenience your coworkers.

Do you see how absurd this argument is? Women make the medical workforce a better, more diverse place. They also have lives that involve having children. There's a thing called work-life balance, and it makes everyone's work life better. That means picking up more slack sometimes so you can get the privilege of taking time off when YOU need to.
 
Where did you get the idea that I believe in stork theory? I'm not Brittany from Glee!

Sometimes pregnancies can be out of our control--condom misuse/failure, for one thing. I will admit that having to "pick up the slack" when a teammate is pregnant is going to definitely be a bitch, but would I support and help the other person? Yes.

Nobody ever said they'd refuse to help accommodate a co-worker in this situation. This is an abstract question we've been considering. If I was placed in this situation I would probably be excited for the coworker since I would know them more personally. I'd still be bummed about the extra work though, and that somehow makes me a misogynist.
 
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yawn. I never should have started posting again in this thread. Enjoy ranting about everyone wanting you to stay in the kitchen, even though it's a steaming pile of crap.

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I understand where some of the dissenters are coming from in this thread, but like others have said, in medical school there will be very little team effort where you'd have to pick up slack from a pregnant peer. In residency, sure, you might have to take some shifts for a co-worker while she's pushing out a baby. Deal with it. Women are part of the work force, women have babies, and the men out there who have a problem with that should do some research into the value of women in medicine or choose a different career. /end thread
 
Geekchick921: Thanks I did mean Anatomy lab and the like. I am at a family funeral and haven't had a chance to check the computer much. I for one think it is awesome you are having another baby in Sept. I was just curious how it would work in case. Congrats btw.
 
Hi,

I have a question. I'm a 33 year female who has always wanted to be a physician. I am now at a crossroad. I'm concerned about time, family, etc. I, currently have no children, but I want a family. So I'm not sure what I should do. I have been teaching for 10 years now and I love my job and have touched many lives; however, I still have the desire to be a physician. So I don't know, I'm stressing, and time is ticking. PA school or MD/DO? Any thoughts?
 
Hi,

I have a question. I'm a 33 year female who has always wanted to be a physician. I am now at a crossroad. I'm concerned about time, family, etc. I, currently have no children, but I want a family. So I'm not sure what I should do. I have been teaching for 10 years now and I love my job and have touched many lives; however, I still have the desire to be a physician. So I don't know, I'm stressing, and time is ticking. PA school or MD/DO? Any thoughts?
33 is still plenty young :) Check out the non-traditional forum a couple of subfora down; reading the threads there might help you come to a decision.
 
+ All of these reasons.

If a woman has to have a child during residency or likely not at all, it'll be a lot tougher on her than it will be on you.
That may be, but it was still her decision. In a small residency program, having someone go off service and also be out of the call pool can actually be a huge hit. It's no big deal when someone's one of thirty medicine residents, especially if someone on a clinic rotation can be pulled onto the inpatient service, but if you're a surgery resident, and one person leaving means everyone goes from Q3 call (and barely within work hours) to Q2 call, and suddenly you are looking at doing 110+ hour weeks.

The good news is that interns won't be in the call pool any more starting July 1. :rolleyes:

:bullcrap: I find it VERY hard to believe that's all he was "allowed". Even if he's not guaranteed FMLA (which applies to fathers, not just mothers) because he hasn't been employed with the hospital long enough, interns still get vacation time. At the very least he could have switched days with his coworkers.
You can put your BS flag away. My chief resident was taking floor calls from nurses while his wife was in L&D having contractions. He got no extra time off. You can file for official FMLA, but again, that leaves your fellow residents holding the bag.
 
I had a baby during my fourth year of med school. I only took 4 weeks vacation after she was born and I'm graduating on time. PM me with any specific questions. :)

Around when in 4th year did you give birth? (If you don't mind me asking). I really want to start having a family but thinking about taking a year off worries me. Thank you.
 
if i start medical school at late 24, early 25, what if i don't meet anyone while in school??? that means i won't have a baby until mid 30s? i don't want to wait that long:/ this gap year of three years is so long;? and i feel dumb because its all because of a low GPA and low MCAT which I'm trying to fix. I'm 23and won't apply until next year. maybe i shouldn't do medicine.
 
Geekchick, pregnancy guru, I have a random question for you: Just the other day at work a pregnant woman said she shouldn't stand close to running microwave ovens. She went to the other side of the room while nuking her Lean Cuisine. Does this make sense?
The ingredients in the frozen meal itself are probably more detrimental than the microwave.
 
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The ingredients in the frozen meal itself are probably more detrimental than the microwave.
Give this guy a prize for most random necro-bump of the year. (and it's only June). I do believe that @Geekchick921 's kid who was merely a bun in the oven when this thread was created could answer this question now. And it is sweet to see how many of the original posters are now med students and residents.
 
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