Primary Care physicians' role being "replaced" by doctor nurse

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Med01

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Article on new "doctor nurse" programs and how the primary care physicians role is being replaced...

With reimbursements declining, these lower fees charged by "doctor nurses" I guess would be more appealing to insurance companies than fees charged by primary care MDs.


http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/eLearning/?article=MakeRoomDrNurse&GT1=27001

As the shortage of primary-care physicians mounts, the nursing profession is offering a possible solution: the "doctor nurse."

More than 200 nursing schools have established or plan to launch doctorate of nursing practice programs to equip graduates with skills the schools say are equivalent to primary-care physicians.

The two-year programs, including a one-year residency, create a "hybrid practitioner" with more skills, knowledge and training than a nurse practitioner with a master's degree, says Mary Mundinger, dean of New York's Columbia University School of Nursing. She says DNPs are being trained to have more focus than doctors on coordinating care among many specialists and health-care settings.

To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care announced in April 2008 that the National Board of Medical Examiners has agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license.

To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care announced in April 2008 that the National Board of Medical Examiners has agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license.
The board will begin administering the exam this fall. By 2015, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing aims to make the doctoral degree the standard for all new advanced practice nurses, including nurse practitioners.

But some physician groups warn that blurring the line between doctors and nurses will confuse patients and jeopardize care. Nurses with doctorates use DrNP after their name, and can also use the designation Dr. as a title.

Physician groups want DNPs to be required to clearly state to patients and prospective students that they are not medical doctors. "Nurses with an advanced degree are not the same as doctors who have been to medical school," says Roger Moore, incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists.

"With four years of medical school and three years of residency training, physicians' understanding of complex medical issues and clinical expertise is unequaled," adds James King, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians.

While nurses with advanced degrees play an important role in delivering care, Dr. King says they should work as part of a physician-directed team.

Although there are no precise statistics on the number of nurses with doctorates because the programs are relatively new, there are about 1,874 DNP students currently enrolled in programs nationwide, up from 862 students in 2006, according to the American Association of Colleges of Nursing.

Nurses have increasingly been moving into more specialized and advanced roles over the past few decades. Advanced-practice nurses include specialists in fields such as nurse midwives and nurse anesthetists, and there are now more than 125,000 nurse practitioners in the U.S. Nurse practitioners in some states are required to work with or be supervised by physicians, but often have independent practices in family medicine, adult care, pediatrics and oncology.
A study led by Columbia's Dr. Mundinger and published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2000 showed comparable patient outcomes in patients randomly assigned to nurse practitioners and primary-care physicians.

Nurse practitioners fear the doctoral programs might be raising the bar too high for their profession. The American Academy of Nurse Practitioners says it supports access to a higher educational degree for nurses, but wants to ensure that members won't be marginalized or required to go back to school for a costly advanced degree. Nurse practitioners can write prescriptions, are eligible for Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement, and often act as the primary health-care provider for their patients.

"Nurse practitioners with master's degrees are already filling the primary-care shortages and providing quality, cost-effective care, many times in places that physicians are unwilling to practice," says Wendy Vogel, a nurse practitioner specializing in oncology at Blue Ridge Medical Specialists in Bristol, Tenn. There are "as yet no data to support the need for increasing the amount of education required to practice in this role," she says.

With an acute shortage of nurses, some medical professionals worry that the doctoral programs, with promises of higher-paying jobs and prestige, will lure more nurses away from the critical tasks of day-to-day bedside care.

But program proponents say they could help bring more nurses into the profession by increasing the number of faculty candidates to train a new generation of nurses. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that more than one million new and replacement nurses will be needed by 2016.

Still, nursing schools had to turn away 40,285 qualified applicants to bachelor's and graduate nursing programs in 2007 in part because of an insufficient number of faculty, according to the American Association of Colleges of Nursing.

Dr. Mundinger, of Columbia, says the primary aim of the DNP is not to usurp the role of the physician, but to deal with the fact that there simply won't be enough of them to care for patients with increasingly complex care needs.

As doctors face shrinking insurance reimbursements and rising malpractice-insurance costs, more medical students are forsaking primary care for specialty practices with higher incomes and more predictable hours. As a result, there could be a shortfall ranging from 85,000 to 200,000 primary-care physicians by 2020, according to various estimates.
In addition to training in diagnostic and treatment skills, doctors of nursing practice can have hospital admitting privileges, coordinate care among specialists, help patients with preventive care, evaluate their social and family situations and manage complex illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease, says Dr. Mundinger, who has been leading the effort behind the National Board of Medical Examiners' planned certification exam.

A spokeswoman for the medical licensing board, which provides examinations used by licensing authorities for several health professions, says the planned DNP exam will be narrower in scope than the three-step exam that doctors take, including tests on organ systems and a range of medical disciplines. A number of physicians have supported the efforts to advance nursing to the doctorate level through the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care.

All nurses currently are licensed by the state in which they practice and are certified by specialty groups. The planned certification exam won't be a requirement for licensing of DNPs, and it is too early to say whether it will catch on broadly as a desirable credential for practice. Jeanette Lancaster, president of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, says "we are keeping an open mind as to whether it will add another level of validation of competency."
Columbia University's Columbia Advanced Practice Nurse Associates, which includes several DNPs, has for several years been taking care of patients with complex illnesses, working with medical doctors and specialists affiliated with the university.

Judith Gleason, a 76-year-old writer and researcher, says she became a patient of the practice after her family physician died. Now, she counts one of Columbia's DNPs as her primary physician.

Gleason says she liked the practice's emphasis on preventive care. More significantly, when she complained of a throbbing headache on one side of her head, Edwidge Thomas, a doctor of nursing practice, noticed something in her blood test that indicated a form of rheumatic infection linked to her arthritis.

The diagnosis was confirmed when Gleason was referred to a neurologist, who prescribed medication. "They are patient-oriented, and they always pick up the pieces, so to speak," says Gleason. "Edwidge is my primary-care provider now."

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so the leader of the DNP program lead the study? :D
 
Good. whatever lowers health care costs.
 
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funny. i posted this earlier on the pre-med forum. i guess it's all the buzz today.
 
Very good. This frees physicians to work on the more challenging aspects of medicine and makes sure people have better, more affordable access to healthcare.
 
Yes, it is good, but not if you're a GP. What else can we expect when there's a physician shortage, and increasingly less of us are going into primary care.
 
You can get a DNP through online-only courses with, of course, no residency or internship. Awesome. That's certainly the "doctor" I want diagnosing my family members. Maybe then when they need a CABG I can get a nurse surgeon trained at the prestigious University of Phoenix.
 
The thing that makes me uneasy is primary care is supposed to be a field adept at picking up rare and unusual medical disorders and disease before the patient progresses into full on medical crisis and is at serious risk for death or permanent disability. Most PCPs I have interacted with have a very astute clinical eye and very thorough differentials, honed through years of training, and function great at screening patients for some of the real zebras. I am sure the DNP programs are great at teaching our nurse practitioners to diagnose and treat the gross majority of typical things that come through primary care, but I just don't see the adequate training to pick up on the things that could fall through the cracks.
 
Very good. This frees physicians to work on the more challenging aspects of medicine

This is the attitude that has caused a variety of fields to go out of business. Once you give up a toe-hold, you will start to lose more and more. Pretty soon the public will be used to seeing nurses for all their medical needs and doctors will be hard pressed to justify their costs. And you will lose the more challenging aspects too. Simply a bad idea for physicians to be okay with this notion and not lobby hard to stop it.

Lawyers have faced the same challenges with realtors, brokers, paralegals, accountants, and each time have lobbied hard and sued extensively to protect their turf. As a result law is strong in all of these ancillary fields, and none of these other fields have made a dent into areas which are deemed "unauthorized practice of law". Whether the public is benefited depends on your perspective -- it's more costly but certainly the added expertise is of value, and the public gets protected from using cheaper options who don't really know the legal repercussions of their actions. Much the same with medicine. "doctor-nurses" likely are cheaper options, but will they know enough of the medicine to not put that rare patient with something subtle into the morgue? The primary goal can't be "cheap" when you are talking about the health of the nation. Various ancillary professionals working under a physician is fine, but instead of a physician is something physicians should not give in to as acceptable. Not only for a loss of business reason, but also for a policy reason. because the public just hears "doctor" and thinks physician; And the public is not in a position to know whether they are getting good care or bad, only attentive and cheap versus inattentive and costly.
 
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this nurse thought pt with BP in 70/50's with gangrenous leg was not in shock.
I actually wouldnt mind outsourcing the job of doctors to other doctors, but outsourcing it to nurses is just going bring down the whole health care system of this country
 
But program proponents say they could help bring more nurses into the profession by increasing the number of faculty candidates to train a new generation of nurses. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that more than one million new and replacement nurses will be needed by 2016.

How can these "doctor nurses" teach new "regular nurses" when they themselves don't practice nursing, but rather medicine?

the planned DNP exam will be narrower in scope than the three-step exam that doctors take, including tests on organ systems and a range of medical disciplines.

Narrower in scope is a code word for easier to pass. And it's only one exam, not three!

A number of physicians have supported the efforts to advance nursing to the doctorate level through the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care.

Who are these sellouts exactly?

Judith Gleason, a 76-year-old writer and researcher, says she became a patient of the practice after her family physician died. Now, she counts one of Columbia's DNPs as her primary physician.

In an obviously biased piece (written by Mundinger herself?) it's important to note that DNP patients consider DNPs to be be primary care physicians. No matter what lip service they give to collaboration, this 76 year old writer and researcher really tells it like it is, and the way it's going to be.

Gleason says she liked the practice's emphasis on preventive care. More significantly, when she complained of a throbbing headache on one side of her head, Edwidge Thomas, a doctor of nursing practice, noticed something in her blood test that indicated a form of rheumatic infection linked to her arthritis.

Awesome. The DNP is qualified because they diagnosed RA? Seriously, any newly minted third year could come up with some basic lab tests to order RA. I'm not really impressed. (Maybe I will be when they flaunt their watered down exam?)

The diagnosis was confirmed when Gleason was referred to a neurologist, who prescribed medication.

Perfect. So instead of diagnosing and treating (like a good PCP would do), we have to refer out to treat RA. Are they going to do this with all the HTN and DM patients too? Order some tests, collect a fee, and refer for treatment (passing the liability on to the doc, BTW). Considering how notoriously noncompliant this population is, it makes a lot more sense to me to keep the one stop diagnosis and treatment option a priority. As a general mode of practice, diagnose and refer is going to kill people.
 
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For all of the "I don't give a damn cause I'm going to specialize" folk just where do you think all the would of been primary care docs are going to apply to if this happens?
If you think your Rads spot is hard to get now wait till everyone flat out abandons primary care and applies to specialties. And those prized fellowships yeah it wont be nearly as easy to get one. Thats not even counting the young already board certified primary care docs who would go back to residency to get retrained. Your application may be good but do you think you are getting in over the primary care attending who plays golf with the PD every Sunday?

So yeah this has no affect on people planning to specialize:rolleyes:
 
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I cannot overemphasize the need to contact your legislators and respective medical organizations (AMA, ACP, ACEP, etc.). DNP's are a very bad idea. The thought of MSN's achieving DNP status by simply fulfilling online course requirements scares me.

Although being marketed as a higher education degree for personal achievement and to help train other nurses, the nursing lobbyists will soon try to get DNP's to become equivalent to MD's and DO's. As one poster already mentioned, one cannot teach nursing with the DNP degree if they are practicing medicine.

Please, spend a few moments to preemptively write your medical organization presidents and your legislators.
 
No nurse should ever have the title "doctor" anywhere in his or her name. This is dangerous, and very confusing to the public, and it belittles what we do in our careers.

On that note, why can't PAs be the ones to help out with the primary care gap? They are certainly more qualified than these doctor nurses could ever be.
 
Oh, so now Nurse = Doctor?

Well then, apply this analogy to other fields:

Once-a-week Volunteer Fireman = Fire Chief
School Bus Driver = Superintendent of School District
Flight Attendant = Airline Pilot

Go ahead, there are plenty more. Imagine if all of society went in this direction... :eek: :eek:
 
Oh, so now Nurse = Doctor?

Well then, apply this analogy to other fields:

Once-a-week Volunteer Fireman = Fire Chief
School Bus Driver = Superintendent of School District
Flight Attendant = Airline Pilot

Go ahead, there are plenty more. Imagine if all of society went in this direction... :eek: :eek:

Welcome to our PC world. You have to give everyone equal status.
 
For all of the "I don't give a damn cause I'm going to specialize" folk just where do you think all the would of been primary care docs are going to apply to if this happens?

My God, you mean all the kids with 250 Step 1 scores are suddenly going to be in competition with the sub-210 folks?!

That's really . . . not much of a worry to the top students.
 
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My God, you mean all the kids with 250 Step 1 scores are suddenly going to be in competition with the sub-210 folks?!

That's really . . . not much of a worry to the top students.

I did well on the boards and put in a decent effort preparing for it, but if I knew that my financial security depended on me breaking 230 or so I would of been cranking through Qbank questions 24/7.

Not saying that I would break 250 but I'm pretty damn sure mine and a lot of other applicants scores would of been higher if we knew that only half the class was going to wind up in residency.

Plus from what I understand scores in the 230 range (much more reasonable than 250) are enough to get your foot in the door in most specialties.
 
Not saying that I would break 250 but I'm pretty damn sure mine and a lot of other applicants scores would of been higher if we knew that only half the class was going to wind up in residency.

If you're trying to say that students titrate their Step 1 studying based on their intended specialty, I'm calling B.S.
 
What you will really see is less people going into medicine. Not many are going to bust their humps through 8 years of school and 3 years of residency to get paid 70k...especially not if there is a DNP path to the same end which requires significantly less investment of time and money.

What the "I don't give a damn I'm going to specialize" people should be afraid of is not more competition for residency spots but more competition for their jobs. DNP's will want to specialize, and into some of the more profitable specialties too. It is not a slippery slope fallacy, it is a slippery slope we are already halfway down. RN's have already moved into anesthesia, ob/gyn, derm, others. Why? Money. It will continue. We are the ones who need to stop this. Call your congressmen.
 
Oh, so now Nurse = Doctor?

Well then, apply this analogy to other fields:

Once-a-week Volunteer Fireman = Fire Chief
School Bus Driver = Superintendent of School District
Flight Attendant = Airline Pilot

Go ahead, there are plenty more. Imagine if all of society went in this direction... :eek: :eek:
I'd like to point out that (while humorous :)) this is NOT analogous to what is happening with the DNP. Making a volunteer fireman the fire chief would at least involve moving someone up in rank in the same field. Turning nurses into doctors without retraining them fully as physicians is like suddenly deciding that a construction worker should function as the architect.

The reasoning of the construction worker to architect scenario is really similar to the DNP argument. They both work in the business of building buildings. The construction worker reads the architect’s plans and with experience can even predict how some problems are solved. Using them would be cheaper and might be almost as good in many cases.

Nursing and medicine are not the same fields. I can’t function as a nurse. I could if I trained in it. I could probably train in an expedited manner due to the crossover of course work such as anatomy, physio, pharm, etc. But to be a nurse I’d need to go to nursing school. Nurses can’t function as docs without the training. I’d have more respect for them (the advocates of DNP) if they were saying they should be able to do an abbreviated med school due to the similar coursework but that they would still need to do the same licensure.
 
So yeah this has no affect on people planning to specialize:rolleyes:

Come on, the nurses behind this "movement" are not stupid. Certainly they will push into the specialties....in the name of "health care accessability". They will be stupid not to tap the specialties. 10 years from now, I bet there will be DNPs in almost every specialty. There logic will be similar...

"We are developing a DNP-ENT pathway because we want to provide ENT services in underserved areas"

"We are developing a DNP-Orthopedics pathway because we want to provide Orthopedic services in underserved areas"

"We are developing a DNP-Cardiology pathway because we want to provide cardiology services in underserved areas"

They will be stupid not to specialize, givin the weak AMA, and the lax attitude of most physicians/surgeons. Why make $100,000 doing GP if you can make $200,000 doing specialty procedures. Who will stop them? Certainly not the AMA.
 
Steps that everyone in medicine need to take:
1) Don't hire DNP's or CRNA's
2) Hire PA's & AA's
3) File lawsuits to bring APN's under BOM

I'm glad that more of you are beginning to see why I have been advocating these steps. It's painfully obvious what the nurses are planning. Primary care is just a distraction. Their ultimate goal is the specialties like derm, GI, cards.

The nurses, including the BON in Louisiana, tried to argue that they could do pain medicine in just 2 weekend classes!!! That's normally a fellowship! The courts finally stopped them.

Think about that.

What's to stop them from saying that they could do derm, cards, GI after taking 2 weekend classes?
 
Very good. This frees physicians to work on the more challenging aspects of medicine and makes sure people have better, more affordable access to healthcare.

What kind of happy juice are you drinking? No, it frees up more physicians to go fishing. They never told you they planned to make their services any cheaper either. What, you think they are stupid?
 
I'd like to point out that (while humorous :)) this is NOT analogous to what is happening with the DNP. Making a volunteer fireman the fire chief would at least involve moving someone up in rank in the same field. Turning nurses into doctors without retraining them fully as physicians is like suddenly deciding that a construction worker should function as the architect.

The reasoning of the construction worker to architect scenario is really similar to the DNP argument. They both work in the business of building buildings. The construction worker reads the architect's plans and with experience can even predict how some problems are solved. Using them would be cheaper and might be almost as good in many cases.

Nursing and medicine are not the same fields. I can't function as a nurse. I could if I trained in it. I could probably train in an expedited manner due to the crossover of course work such as anatomy, physio, pharm, etc. But to be a nurse I'd need to go to nursing school. Nurses can't function as docs without the training. I'd have more respect for them (the advocates of DNP) if they were saying they should be able to do an abbreviated med school due to the similar coursework but that they would still need to do the same licensure.

This is a good point. From my uneducated vantage point, it kinda looks like they are advocating for a shortcut.

Why don't doctors participate in the AMA the way that nurses participate in their organizations? Also, if DNP will have so few clinical hours and will be so unprepared, then why did doctors not say anything when nurse practitioners were created? I can only imagine that they would be even more unprepared.
 
If you're trying to say that students titrate their Step 1 studying based on their intended specialty, I'm calling B.S.

If you told a medical school class that half of them were not going to get residency positions or that they would wind up in "nursing" I can guarantee you there would be a lot higher board scores overall.

Maybe not the 250 mark you mentioned in your first post but I think we would see a lot more in the 220s and 230s. I think the average score now is 214. Certainly wouldn't be hard to scare them into studying for those extra 10 points.
I know theres residency programs that simply crank out their match list based on class rank and board scores but you can't tell me that every applicant with a 235 is a slam dunk over a 220 applicant.
 
This is a good point. From my uneducated vantage point, it kinda looks like they are advocating for a shortcut.

Why don't doctors participate in the AMA the way that nurses participate in their organizations? Also, if DNP will have so few clinical hours and will be so unprepared, then why did doctors not say anything when nurse practitioners were created? I can only imagine that they would be even more unprepared.
Docs have traditionally been very poor at advocating for themselves politically.

First, we tend to think we can do everything ourselves because we're just so damn brilliant. Opposing groups have hired lawyers, lobbyists and PR firms while we have been pompous and self-righteous. This has not proven to be effective.

Second, we tend to think that the public will support us because they know that as doctors we’re here to help them and always act in their best interest. Currently the public thinks doctors are greedy and evil but we have refused to recognize this and are shocked and hurt every time the public tells us to get bent.

Third, docs as a profession have lots of competing interests. The specialists want higher reimbursement for procedures at the expense of primary care. The PMDs, needless to say, oppose that. EM docs want regulations mandating more specialist call. Specialists oppose. With so much infighting it’s hard to unite on the issues we do agree about. We can’t form unions due to the government taking the stance that a professional union is the same as the mafia.

The AMA is a poor advocacy body for the above reasons and the fact that it really has some odd positions that drive a lot of people from the organization. Just look at AMSA for a more extreme example.
 
This is a good point. From my uneducated vantage point, it kinda looks like they are advocating for a shortcut.

Why don't doctors participate in the AMA the way that nurses participate in their organizations? Also, if DNP will have so few clinical hours and will be so unprepared, then why did doctors not say anything when nurse practitioners were created? I can only imagine that they would be even more unprepared.


Not just a short cut but I think they think they can take care of patients better then a MD or DO, dream on, they will not have the education nor the training

It takes us years

It takes them years too.

You just cannot do 2 years and be a Doctor we know that! SO do they!!! But the public does not! They are going to be ones that suffer.:smuggrin:

What will the Malpractice be for a DNP????? WOW!
 
Docs have traditionally been very poor at advocating for themselves politically.

Amen to this.

I agree that ego, historical public acceptance, and competing interests between specialists make cohesive political action as difficult as herding cats.

Added to this: The young, politically active physicians are burdened with medical school debt and the long workhours of residency and fellowship training.
 
Tell me how does this better the US health care system? How does this make it a High level system?

( I think it lowers the standards not even maintains it )
 
Tell me how does this better the US health care system? How does this make it a High level system?

( I think it lowers the standards not even maintains it )

Am I to take it that you and many other people on this board do not support nurse practitioners? Because in many states, they are already autonomous.

It is hard for me to see if these DNPs are supposed to be more capable than MSNs and therefore have more responsibility, perhaps even (as some fear) responsibility equal to a doctor, or if the nurses are just trying to find a way to raise the bar of training so that nurse practitioners will be better at what they already do. I'm also unclear about how much a primary care nurse practitioner cannot legally do that a primary care doctor can.
 
Because in many states, they are already autonomous.

This is not quite true. Here's the latest on NP rights state by state.

The other thing is that even if NP's are given state autonomy they can't function as such most of the time because of Medicare billing or hospital rules.

The push by Mundinger et al is to eliminate all those differences so that DNP's have the same billing, hospital, etc privileges and status as PCP's. That's silly when you consider that they have only 1000 hours of clinical training. Um, I reached 1000 hours by my 4th month as an MS3.

I actually would welcome a comprehensive and well-designed study to determine exactly what a NP/DNP is capable of. I think that many DNP's would be surprised by just how much they are lacking. States would be forced to limit DNP scope once they see how many holes in DNP knowledge there are.
 
Because in many states, they are already autonomous.


According to the source you cited, Taurus, there are 22 states (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where an NP can diagnose and treat without physician oversight and 11 (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where they can write prescriptions without physician oversight.

That would qualify as "many" states and "autonomous" to me.
 
According to the source you cited, Taurus, there are 22 states (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where an NP can diagnose and treat without physician oversight and 11 (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where they can write prescriptions without physician oversight.

That would qualify as "many" states and "autonomous" to me.

It's splitting hairs.

If anything, it should be a wake-up call to physicians that they face a formidable lobbying group in NP's intent on practicing medicine autonomously without a license. If NP's have achieved this much success, what will happen when DNP's become the de facto standard?

What NP's can't get achieve through education they have been able to get it through lobbying. It's disgusting really. Physicians need to shed this altruistic guise and protect our profession.

I'm happy to feel like I'm no longer the lone voice on this issue. I see that many are picking up on what I have been posting for the last 4 years.
 
It is almost like your trying to minimize what we do and how hard of work we did to get to where we are.

This is my favorite so far.
 
Am I to take it that you and many other people on this board do not support nurse practitioners? Because in many states, they are already autonomous.
Oh Boy this is why I went to Medical school after 17 years as an RN, so many nurses think logic and emotions are the same thing. No I support Nurse Practitioners I said that more then once, I do not support autonomy of practice for them, some level of oversight by a MD or DO must be there IMHO, 11 misguided states and I do not live in one of them. Just because this is allowed in these states does not make a NP a DOctor nor a replacement for a Physician, they are limited in practice by practice act laws of the state. I do not agree with autonomy but I think the Level of Collaboration is fine. NP's are not meant to be autonomous, if so then why did they not go to medical school like me?

It is hard for me to see if these DNPs are supposed to be more capable than MSNs and therefore have more responsibility, perhaps even (as some fear) responsibility equal to a doctor, or if the nurses are just trying to find a way to raise the bar of training so that nurse practitioners will be better at what they already do. I'm also unclear about how much a primary care nurse practitioner cannot legally do that a primary care doctor can.

There are a lot of things a primary care NP cannot do verses an MD or DO.
There are different practice acts for the NP for one, this alone tells you there is a difference. In Georgia you are Licensed to Practice "Surgery and Medicine" as a Physician when you are a Licensed MD or DO, Nurse practitioners that are Primary care are Licensed as a NP and must collaborate with an MD.

The DNP is not going to change the laws, it is a veil attempt to "Dumb Down" MD and DO Family practitioner and I care about this because the level of training and experience we get in Medical school and residency cannot be replaced by a quick 1 year in classroom and 1 yr residency. 2 years verses my 7 to become a Family practicioner that include USMLE 1 2 and 3 and Board certification in FP, How can you tell me its the same? It can not be the same.

The experience I am getting and will have is what it takes to be autonomous at the end of Residency, A DNP will not clearly have this, the first 4 years of their training is in Nursing, the 2 years after that for the MSN is half nursing theory, so then 1 more year of classroom and the residency and now they are expecting us to think they are equal to a MD who spent 7 or more years focused on medicine not just maybe 2 years worth? No IMHO it will not happen .
They can be PHD NP's but they are not Physicians and should not and will not be called Doctors in the clinical setting, in fact some states have laws on who can be called Doctor and who cannot be, maybe its time to make sure this is universal across the US.

Who suffers? Again the public! Who Nursing has always said they are advocates for.........in this case they are not ( remember I'm an RN) :smuggrin:
 
According to the source you cited, Taurus, there are 22 states (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where an NP can diagnose and treat without physician oversight and 11 (plus the Dist. of Columbia) where they can write prescriptions without physician oversight.

That would qualify as "many" states and "autonomous" to me.

I have th info on PDF and it is 11 states autonomous and then there are levels of involvement, so no it is not more then 11 states............

In the Majority of the USA 50-11 is 39/50 = 78% NP's must have MD or DO involvement at some level of practice, you are splitting hairs to say they can write a prescription with out direct supervision so that means autonomous, no it does not.
 
I saw this in another thread I love it........

DNP Family Nurse Practitioner Schedule
YEAR 1
FALL
NSG 911 Philosophy of Science 3(3-0)
BIOE 712 Principles of Epidemiology 3(3-0)
NSG 814 Biostatistics3(3-0) TOTAL9(9-0)

SPRING
NSG 916 Concept & Theory Analysis 3(3-0)
HSA 851Leadership and Health Policy 3(3-0)
Nursing Advanced Practice Selective 4(2-2) or required specialty equivalent

TOTAL10(8-2)

YEAR 2
FALL
HSA 877 Health Care Economics 3(3-0)
NSG 819Evaluation of Practice 4(4-0)
NAPS Nursing Advanced Practice Selective 4(2-2) or required specialty equivalent

TOTAL11(9-2)

SPRING
NSG 926 Resident Practicum 6(0-6)
NSG 946 Residency Project3(3-0) TOTAL9(3-6)


TOTAL NUMBER OF HOURS FOR THIS OPTION
39(29-10)

Yea this looks like medical school in comparison LOL :eek:

No Biochem
No Path
No Physio
No Genetics

4 of the very important thing on the USMLE and in everyday practice!

There is no way these NP's are equivalent to DOctors!
 
So did they ban you yet? ;)

Why are the PHD nurses so worked up to solve our Primary care shortage what about the NURSING SHORTAGE??????????
 
Not yet, believe it or not! :hardy:
you should have started "CNA RN : 1 year to be called RN program"

LOL that would get them..............
 
University of Maryland program.

Family Nurse Practitioner
Sample Plan of Full-Time Study
First Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits
NPHY 612 Advanced Physiology and Pathophysiology 3
NURS 660 Advanced Family Health Assessment across the Lifespan 4
NURS 630 FP I: Health Promotion and Disease Prevention 2
NURS 631 FP I: Practicuum: Health Promotion and Disease Prevention 2
Total 11
Second Semester (Spring) Course Title Credits
NURS 622 Systems and Populations in Health Care 3
NURS 723 Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 3
NURS 632 FP II: Clinical Management of Common
Health Care Problems 3
NURS 633 FP II: Practicum – Clinical Management of Common
Health Care Problems 5

Total 14
Third Semester (Summer) Course Title Credits
NURS 701 Science and Research for Advanced Nursing Practice 4
NURS 640 FP III: Management of Complex Health Care Problems 2
Total 6
Fourth Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits
NURS 644 FP III: Practicum: Management of Complex
Health Care Problems 3
NURS 659 Organizational and Professional Dimensions of
Advanced Nursing Practice 3
NURS 755 Families in Crisis 2
Total 8
Fifth Semester (Spring) Course Title Credits
NURS 731 FP IV: Practicum – Integrative Management of
Primary Health Care Problems 2
NURS 741 FP IV: Practicum – Integrative Management of
Primary Health Care Problems 7
Total 9
Total Credits Total Credits
Total Credits 48

In bold is the Medical related classroom time for a NP

Notice how it is condensed a lot
Notice how much they are in a Practicum instead of classroom ( same as our 2 years of clincicals) But when they graduate they expect to go out and practice no residency.

this is because it is only 2 years

It is not comparable to MD or DO.

You can clearly see that.
 
University of Maryland DNP program:

Doctor of Nursing Practice
Sample Plan of Full-time Study

The program requires a minimum of 38 credits comprised of 19 credits of core courses, 15 credits of specialty electives, and 4 credits for a capstone project. Full-time or part-time options are available.
First Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits
NDNP 802 Methods for Evidence-Based Practice 3
NDNP 804 Theoretical and Philosophical Foundations
of Nursing Practice 3
NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 3
NDNP 810 Capstone Project Identification 1
Total 10
Second Semester (Spring) Course Title Credits
NDNP 805 Design and Analysis for Evidence-Based Practice 4
NDNP 807 Information Systems and Technology for the
Improvement and Transformation of Health Care 3
NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 3
NDNP 811 Capstone II Project Development 1
Total 11
Third Semester (Summer) Course Title Credits
NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 1
NDNP 809 Complex Healthcare Systems 3
NDNP 812 Capstone III Project Implementation 1
Total 5
Fourth Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits
NDNP 815 Leadership and Interprofessional Collaboration 3
NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 8
NDNP 813 Capstone IV Project Evaluation & Dissemination 1
Total 12
Total Credits Total Credits
Total Credits 38

I put in bold what may be considered Medical related but this looks a little weak here? To be compared to the Physician level? I do not think so!


Requirements for DNP acceptance:
Doctor of Nursing Practice
Admission Requirements

* Cumulative GPA of 3.0 on a 4.0 scale in a program resulting in the award of a master’s degree in nursing from an NLNAC- or CCNE-accredited college or university, or an equivalent degree from a comparable foreign university
* Official transcripts for all prior undergraduate and graduate study
* Three letters of recommendation
* An interview with selected applicants will be arranged after the applications are received and reviewed
* 500 to 1,000-word essay outlining goals, objectives, and focused area of interest in pursuing the DNP
* Current RN license (Clinical agencies may require a Maryland license.)
* Current resume or curriculum vitae

Notice no mention of NP or anything so a plain MSN nurse can then apply and become a DNP in 2 years...........................What they want to think will make them a Doctor........We have to stop this! It is a Joke if this is true!

If I'm wrong tell me but I think this is worse then the Caribbean medical schools that are Diploma Mills.............
 
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