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If you are a US citizen and didn't match, join this facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ResidencyReadyPhysicians/

They're trying to join and collaborate to get NRMP or someone to help give preference to US citizens to match over non-US IMGs.

Hope this helps.

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Entitlement = mediocrity.

Hardly any place would protect spots for foreign IMGs above AMGs so an IMG must stand out to actually *earn* a spot otherwise awarded to an American. If a place does protect IMG spots, it usually is a discernible percentage of the total spots (ie, <10%). And places hogged fully by IMGs are so because AMGs do not even apply there.

Which brings us to a couple of considerations:
-It's the very same way in which meritocracy works across disciplines. MIT is now headed by a Venezuelan. Harvard hires foreign laureates as teachers. boo effin hoo, they deserve it. you don't see HBS graduates crying about having top notch visa holders there.
-If it was a matter of spots, they're there, and citizens should seek them. The system favors AMGs so overwhelmingly already (which seems only logical), if you're half decent, you can give yourself the peace of mind of applying to few places, have regional preferences, etc. and still land enough interviews to match (if you bothered reading the NRMP reports and charting outcomes, it is evident). If you didn't match after applying to 150+ places (like many IMGs) and you can in all fairness claim that spot in a community center in the shadier side of the Bronx was given to an IMG, by all means, complain.

Additionally, IMGs on any type of visa pay taxes as well.

I'll be very happy for as long as the US is still run mostly on merit, and geographic/historical entitlement is left to Old Europe.
 
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which brings another question, why are we judged by simply board scores. i have lots more experience and i was in residency before and all they want is high board scores. some of these countries are corrupt and accept bribes to have the test seen before they take it so they can score 99. i have seen proof of this on another forum, a person admittedly bribed someone to see the test ahead of time. not to mention,a lot have already done residency in their own country. is that fair to someone that hasn't? residency is training, you aren't supposed to be expected to know anything about it. they're just abusing visas to get cheap labor who they can fire and throw away easily as they please. i wholeheartedly disagree with both of you. I went to a west indies (near the caribbean) medical school and learned exactly the same thing as an AMG. most of my collegues are attendings....ahem.

i think high board score criteria for IMGs are a cult. you don't see AMG's having to have high board scores, and many don't. its just another hoop for IMG"s. and since that's the case an AMG can be considered mediocrity, they may not know squat, but they're still accepted. also why should an AMG be entitled either? not to mention why should board scores be entitled too? that's not a true measure of anything. what if they cheated or took the test way past medical school when they already know everything and more mature way after med school and training, when i had to take my test when i was dumb (before clinicals for step 1 and during my 4th year of med school for step 2) and naieve and heart broken from a parental divorce. is it fair? i think not! they don't take that into consideration, which isn't right.
 
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As another FMG, I agree 100% with you. We're not only talking about caribbean US-IMGs, but those foreign born who get into arranged marriages just for obtaining a green card/citizenship, who seem to be just as entitled... it simply does not make any sense.

likely you're not a US citizen
 
which brings another question, why are we judged by simply board scores. i have lots more experience and i was in residency before and all they want is high board scores. some of these countries are corrupt and accept bribes to have the test seen before they take it so they can score 99. i have seen proof of this on another forum, a person admittedly bribed someone to see the test ahead of time. not to mention,a lot have already done residency in their own country. is that fair to someone that hasn't? residency is training, you aren't supposed to be expected to know anything about it. they're just abusing visas to get cheap labor who they can fire and throw away easily as they please. i wholeheartedly disagree with both of you. I went to a west indies (near the caribbean) medical school and learned exactly the same thing as an AMG. most of my collegues are attendings....ahem.

i think high board score criteria for IMGs are a cult. you don't see AMG's having to have high board scores, and many don't. its just another hoop for IMG"s. and since that's the case an AMG can be considered mediocrity, they may not know squat, but they're still accepted. also why should an AMG be entitled either? not to mention why should board scores be entitled too? that's not a true measure of anything. what if they cheated or took the test way past medical school when they already know everything and more mature way after med school and training, when i had to take my test when i was dumb (before clinicals for step 1 and during my 4th year of med school for step 2) and naieve and heart broken from a parental divorce. is it fair? i think not! they don't take that into consideration, which isn't right.

I'm afraid I'm only sorry for your situation to a certain extent. However (respectfully), your general ideas seem to have more heart than sense to them.

First, you seem to think the criteria for selection is simply scores, which any program director (and really, anyone) would certainly point out is blatantly false. If this were so, many more FMGs would get in because, frankly, so many people overseas (west and eastbound) seem to think it's all about sitting down and studying for the exams for 2+yrs (and getting 260+, boohoo).

Inveresely, people with rather low scores get into their residencies of choice. How? with great CVs, clinical experience, the works. So I'm sorry but regardless of the fact that most of your colleagues are attendings (which, mind you, is the case for plenty other FMGs as well), that doesn't make you an attending or a solid candidate for that matter. Furthermore, since you say you learnt the same as AMGs, and seemingly were unvafoured by comparison you only make further proof to my point on how the system (already) favors AMGs.

Additionally, it is naive at the very least (and rather hipocritical) to suppose others are those "corrupt countries" and try and make light of some fraudulent applicants (which arise, geographically, everywhere) to imply these are the rule abroad, rather than the exception. And precisely so, in light of any minor occurence of such infraction, PDs more than certainly don't choose applicants solely based on board scores. In fact, sir, with much displeasure I ought to point out caribbean schools are sometimes just as much (fairly or unfairly) cast aside for reasons (or rather allegations) I'm sure you're familiar with.

That being said, it should be worth mentioning that, when you get applicants in the thousands, the only logic would be to have some sort of objective criteria to filter out until reaching an eligible pool of applicants. supposing the USMLE isn't the proper method to standardise (and therefore compare) applicants, thus begs the question: which method *is*, and why hasn't any discipline set it in place? you have to take GREs and GMATs for other disciplines. you have to land TOEFL scores way above the failure cutoff to be able to get ahead in any.single.career. To your dismay, these rules of the game apply for all.

Second, as you yourself point out that scores for IMGs are a cult, and not the requirement for AMGs, you simply deepen the obvious contradiction: board scores don't matter as much as you figure, and that's why AMGs are favoured in the match (almost) every time.

Furthermore you mention AMGs may be mediocre and know squat, but still be accepted. This brings two thoughts to mind:
-You may believe you learnt the exact same thing as AMGs, but only can the system guarantee the quality of medical education (theoretical and practical, via the ACGME, etc) in the US, not foreign ("corrupt", if you wish) countries; therefore the quality, and not the quantity (I may say, I went to a 6-yr long medical school) are defining factors. not just the USMLE, or "USCE" anywhere.
-This way of entitlement bothers you, but it doesn't bother you to promote entitlement on the basis of your passport. As we'd say over here, "the bad thing about the elite is not being part of it".

Finally, your closing remarks are, unfortunately, passionate and apologetic. You seem to think parental divorce is unique to your circumstances and that you were the first person on earth to take step 1 before clinicals. I invite you to tour around this (and other forums) to realize such (and many worse) misfortunes are not exclusively yours, and many people going through them outperformed you (and I) considerably. While I'm sorry and empathise with you to a point, I simply cannot agree with you, thinking you could've simply postponed, if such distressing times were affecting your performance.
 
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Not to be rude but why should people support this. I as an American citizen whole heartedly support US citizens who go to accredited US med schools getting residency. I have little support for US citizens who didn't get into an American medical school due to poor GPA, poor MCAT, scores etc. compared to non-US IMGs who often end up having to work harder to end up at the same point. While tax dollars are at play here, they tax dollars are being used because the cost of paying for residents if they could bill would be far greater so it really isnt about protecting US tax dollars per se.

Where did you get the stupid idea that medical school admissions is entirely based on merit?

State of residence has a tremendous bearing on an applicant's probability of getting accepted to medical school. Look at the average matriculant's MCAT and GPA table from AAMC broken down by state of residence. https://www.aamc.org/download/161700/data/table21.pdf

You will see that applicants from states such as West Virginia, South Dakota, Illinois and Louisiana are held to a much lower standard than applicants from Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota and New Hampshire. I've examined these data over the last 15 years and I can tell you that some states are ALWAYS much tougher than some other states.

Furthermore admissions officers are too lazy and stupid to normalize applicants' transcripts to account for the rigor of the undergraduate college and major. This is the reason that less than 15% of the matriculants to medical schools are physical science majors and 33% have majors that include phys ed and art.

Furthermore I don't want to see U.S. tax money being spent on the residency training of people who may not practice medicine here. I don't care if some resident pays $12,000 of his/her salary back in federal and state taxes. The residency they are taking cost the U.S. taxpayers about $150,000 per year. That money should be spent on Americans who will practice here.
 
Finally, your closing remarks are, unfortunately, passionate and apologetic. You seem to think parental divorce is unique to your circumstances and that you were the first person on earth to take step 1 before clinicals. I invite you to tour around this (and other forums) to realize such (and many worse) misfortunes are not exclusively yours, and many people going through them outperformed you (and I) considerably. While I'm sorry and empathise with you to a point, I simply cannot agree with you, thinking you could've simply postponed, if such distressing times were affecting your performance.


i could not post pone my tests, it was a requirement by my school to take them before clinicals and before graduating. and i was unaware that scores mattered. i was repeatedly told by numerous people that you just have to pass and that is it. I took my step 1 in 2000 and step 2 in 2003.
 
i could not post pone my tests, it was a requirement by my school to take them before clinicals and before graduating. and i was unaware that scores mattered. i was repeatedly told by numerous people that you just have to pass and that is it. I took my step 1 in 2000 and step 2 in 2003.

Virtually all AMG's take Step I before starting their clinical rotations (at the end of 2nd year), and take Step II at the beginning of 4th year. It seems that you followed the same schedule, so it's unclear how this should put you at a disadvantage.
 
You are part of the problem. You didnt do your due diligence and rather than take the time to find out what was important you just followed the crowd with the expectation that you deserved a residency spot because you were a US citizen. Earn your spot by outscoring and having a better CV than the FMGs rather than simply expecting a handout.

i own a home care company....and i work as a visiting physician for it for nearly a year.....that didn't seem to do anything at all. they don't care to hire me, despite some good stuff on my resume. i even did a year of research with 3 first authored papers, 2 years of residency...nothing
 
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Why should residencies take your personal situation into consideration? It is your responsibility to understand the implications of the test and your mental state going up to the exam. I have colleagues who were unprepared and took a year off rather than take the exam unprepared. Most US grads took the Step 1 and 2 at the exact same times you did, so whats the difference. You claim that your education was as good but the problem is that there is no way to validate this as your school is not AAMC accredited.

well if you think a carribean school with US citizens is no good then what do you think of foreign schools with people on visas. you think they're better? you want them to be the doctors of america?

also, a lot of these FMG's on visas are now going to sign contracts to return to their countries when they are done with residency. isn't that a waste of a spot for someone that could be working in the US?

here's the accreditation of my school: The United States Department of Education, through its National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA), has determined that the accreditation standards employed by the Medical Board are comparable with those used to evaluate programs leading to the MD degree in the United States by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education.

i was top of my high school class and went to a good college with premed, these other foreign schools with people on visas don't even go through 4 years of college, maybe just 2, and just go straight to med school. is that much better? i dont get why you think so.

many of the people trying to get residency are US citizens with PHD's too. you think they should be left behind,if it is based on merits?

and another thing, why do most people here point fingers at me, this is about all US citizens that didn't get in, not just me.
 
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Hmm having been through the med school and residency process as US born and raised citizen matriculating thrugh a US med school I have a pretty good idea. Whats your background..have you finished med school, residency, or do you work for a med school that would provide you with insight? Undergrad students can easily find as you posted on average what scores they need (MCAT, GPA) to have a shot of matriculating. While it is not their fault that they may live in more competitive state that is the reality of the system as it stands; they should know what they need to get, and if they cant meet those criteria they might not have a chance to be a physician. Im not disagreeing that the way things are evaluated isnt perfect but as a applicant you need to be aware of these factors and do your due diligence.

As for the tax payer comment, yes taxpayers through Medicare pay around 150,000 per year per resident. The reason is not out of the benevolence of Medicare/US government for US med graduates but because they figured it was cheaper to the tax payers to front hospitals the money for residencies rather than pay for bills incurred from residents involvement in care. Further, if a US citizen cant get into a US med school that sheds some significant questions; are there US-IMGs that succeed absolutely, but the premise of the residency system should be to first protect US grads from AAMC accredited schools and then pick the best of the rest (based on whatever criteria said residencies value). Forcing residencies to take US-IMGs who didnt have the chops to get into a US school to start with and are less qualified than a FMG makes no sense.

It may come as a shock to you but not every seventeen year old knows how the med school admissions game is played. When my daughter applied to college she had her choice of a realtively easy Big 10 school, a more rigorous Big 10 college and an extremely rigorous private college that was tougher in every way than the two Big 10 schools. Her net tuition bill at one of the two Big 10 schools would have been $2,500 per year thanks to an unsolicited merit scholarship. The other more rigorous Big 10 school and the private college were each about $10,000 per year for tuition and fees thanks to a very large merit package at the private college. She was told by the admissions office at the one state med school in our home state that the admissions officers handicapped transcripts to account for rigor.

She then went to the private college and majored in a physical science. When she applied to her state med school her MCAT was as high as the school's MCAT average for MS1s but her GPA was slighlty below average for matriculants. She didn't get an interview. She was told that her GPA was too low and that it was impossible for the imbeciles in the admissions office to normalize transcripts to account for undergraduate rigor. In other words they lied to her when she was picking a college. She did, however, get accepted to a U.S. allopathic medical school.

I am well aware of the bargain that that the hospitals made with medicare. (One problem with this bargain is that private insurers and payers are getting a free ride when it comes to the services provided by residents.) In any case the money should be used to further residency training for people who will practice medicine in the U.S. and not for people who are going to practice elsewhere.

I am not nor will I ever be a physician. I am a CPA with a law degree and an MBA from a top 25 MBA program which means you are the economic ***** here and not I.
 
well if you think a carribean school with US citizens is no good then what do you think of foreign schools with people on visas. you think they're better? you want them to be the doctors of america?

also, a lot of these FMG's on visas are now going to sign contracts to return to their countries when they are done with residency. isn't that a waste of a spot for someone that could be working in the US?

er.. many FMGs went to real medical schools which were as if not more competitive to get into than US medical schools, with international reputations, with hospitals, research, faculty etc not some expensive crammer course that will accept anyone who will pay the fees. so enough of your xenophobic crap. FMGs often work in underserved communities where US citizens don't want to work (it is a visa requirement often). They often work in academic medicine, again where US citizens don't want to work because they can make more money in private practice. On the contrary to having the advantage on the USMLEs, they often had to take the exams many years after learning their basic science, and almost certainly did not learn half the stuff tested on the exam and have to learn it all, often whilst doing residency. Not everyone spends years preparing I did them in all in 3 weeks. You had 2 years of learning directed at the USMLEs and you still failed.

you keep looking for the easy way out, whilst many FMGs have taken the hardest, most onerous path and it is that dedication that makes them attractive to programs. On the otherhand your whining self-pity, and sense of entitlement, your attempts to take the path of least resistant is what makes you untouchable. you weren't good enough to get into medical school, then you weren't good enough to pass your boards, then you weren't good enough to finish your residency and you somehow think stopping foreigners will help you? It won't, there is already a system which privileges US graduates and US citizens and you still failed to make the cut.
 
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So Daddy has a problem because his daughter listened to the admissions officer instead of you or her taking the time to get the information on your own and didnt get into the state med school. It is pretty clear with minimal research that not all med schools adjust for the rigor of the undrgrad applicants go to.

As for your comment about funding, if you were in medicine, you would realize that the overwhelming majority of FMGs that immigrate to this country for residency stay in this country. Beyond that, because of their visa status, many end up working in underserved areas where US grads and US-IMGs would not choose to practice.

You end your post by calling me an "economic *****." Funny, I simply asked what your credentials/experience were to make the statements you did and I presented mine and you decided to respond with insults Turns out you have no medical experience or from what you posted experience in health care finance and while its great that you are a CPA who is also a lawyer with an MBA, that doesnt mean you have financial experience as it pertains to health care (maybe you do, I dont know). Being a CPA and having an MBA, while giving you more knowledge about finance and economics, does not make you any more knowledgable about health care finance and economics unless you focused on them during your education or work currently, if you do great, your perspective could be helpful

As an aside, why is a practicing CPA with no interest in ever becoming a physician posting in resident fourms?

I wish I could post this in crayon for you. You might get a better grasp of the situation.
Through my wife I have been around academic medicine for the last 35 years. As a CPA I have had a number of clients who are physicians. Based on these experiences it is absolutely no mystery to me that Americans are grossly over paying for medical care. In their personal lives physicians are stupid money managers. In their professional lives they are no better.

I started looking at these forums in 2008 when it had become clear to me that my kid had been deceived by the admissions office at our state med school and by her advisor at her college. My kid got into medical school thanks to her brains and hard work as well as my time and money.

I read these forums now to find source documents that will provide my daughter with real information about specialties and residencies. She won't get fooled again. I post in these forums when the level of economic stupidity is so great that I feel compelled to respond.

You make statements that residencies are set aside for graduates of AAMC approved medical schools. Please cite the statute that makes this so. Go to your local law library. As an M.D. you must be a whiz at legal research.

The American taxpayer and the American premium payer have paid for U.S. residency spots. U.S. residencies should be set aside for U.S. citizens until all qualified U.S. medical school graduates find a spot. This will insure the greatest return for the $150,000 we pay per slot.
 
So becuase your wife and your clients are poor with money and financial matters, all physicians are, thats a pretty big leap. There are a lot of physicians who have more financial savy or have taken the time to get additional training/education (ex. I took finance and economics classes in undergrad to at least have some working knowlege and many of my colleagues have MBAs). You say that are Americans are grossly overpaying for their medical care...what does this have to do with physicians money management (as an aside physician salaries make up less than 10% of health care costs).

I never set residencies "are" set aside for graduates of AAMC schools, if that was the case we wouldnt have AMGs not matching. What I said previously is that if we are going to reform residency selection we should push for AAMC school graduates to be taken first and then select the best of the FMG/US-IMG candidates.

You state, "The American taxpayer and the American premium payer have paid for U.S. residency spots. U.S. residencies should be set aside for U.S. citizens until all qualified U.S. medical school graduates find a spot. This will insure the greatest return for the $150,000 we pay per slot." That 150,000 per spot is going to be paid regardless of who fills the seat; beyond protecting US grads going to AAMC schools, why should we protect US-IMGs? The tax payer is actually saving compared to what the true cost would be if residents billed (which was the case in the past from my understanding). If your arguement is that US-IMGs paid taxes and therefore contributed, FMGs will pay taxes during their residencies and will be paying more taxes as attendings. Most US-IMGs were students before med school and most often contributed little in tax revenue, their parents maybe contributed more. Further, we should strive for the best candidates possible to fill residencies not US-IMGs who couldn't get into an American school to start with compared with FMGs who often face higher standards to get into medical school and more rigorous training.

You sit there and keep babysitting your daughter through life. I would hope that as a medical student she could decide her own residency course and how to make the best of it and learn from her past mistakes.

Ok. This is the last time I'll post on this topic.

I don't baby sit my kid. I wish I had done as much as most parents do when their kid picks a college. I think I looked at one catalog. She picked her school and her major. She was deceived repeatedly. That's when I decided to take the bull by the horns.

She'll pick her specialty and she'll pick the programs to which she'll apply. She'll rank the programs. I'm going to make sure that she has the information she needs to make an informed decision. Don't like that? Tough.

I got an A in college chemistry. That does not make me an endocrinologist. I'm not terribly impressed that you took a couple of econ courses in college. You haven't spent 35 years in government, industry and public accounting. You don't know diddly about the economy. Admit it.

You just can't figure out public finance. I'm going to try to help you one last time. If you would actually look at the litearture, you will see that FMGs have a higher attrition rate in residency programs than Americans. This isn't generally a reflection of scientific ignorance on the part of foreigners. It's a matter of communication skills and cultural sensitivity.The taxpayers cough up about $15 billion a year for residencies. The taxpayers expect a return on that investment in the form of the greatest number of licensed physicians practicing in the U.S. Every time a residency program accepts an alien over a qualified American for a residency, the program diminishes the return the taxpayers will receive. . This is a violation of trust and a betrayal of U.S. taxpayers.
 
This is getting agressive and condescending so I'll be brief to address a couple of points at hand and that's it.

i could not post pone my tests, it was a requirement by my school to take them before clinicals and before graduating. and i was unaware that scores mattered. i was repeatedly told by numerous people that you just have to pass and that is it. I took my step 1 in 2000 and step 2 in 2003.

Apologetic and, clearly, ill advised. And I'm sorry, you may look for all kinds of ways to justify what happened to you, it doesn't drive it away. And since I've met a fair share of carib grads (and as *anyone* in a competitive field- which means any nowadays- would point out), scores do matter, you clearly asked the wrong people.

well if you think a carribean school with US citizens is no good then what do you think of foreign schools with people on visas. you think they're better? you want them to be the doctors of america?
(...) and all that other stuff you wrote.

Big(ot) words, nationalism, protectionism, yada yada. the truth of things is that in medicine, as in most academic fields, foreigners have been a huge contribution to America, and will continue to be so, for as long as the academic circles in the country continue to think in the absolute opposite fashion as you do.

Yourself and others should objectively listen to scholars like Michio Kaku (Here and Here) and others who have shed light on the need for immigrants across professional fields.

Even worse, I would rather undermine your whole argument if you were to do a rotation anywhere across the states and get any kind of explanation or learning from one of the many, many foreign residents, fellows and attendings that retribute to the community. Could you really live with yourself having learnt the corrupt ways of these foreigners who took the liberty of coming to these great states, stealing your jobs and started giving you any kind of advice or information on patient care? Because if it this is so bothersome, sir, I'll tell ya: you'll have a hard time working in *any* hospital in the states.

Which brings me to the one (and only) time I will address Mr. Obnoxiousdad (very true to his name, too): The 150k investment in training isn't a free ride with a plug in the back of your head while you couchsurf through 3 years. aside from the obvious retribution (ie, taxes), there is a *contract*, for which the reimbursement the resident obtains is so for a service provided. If you think this is not so, chopping FMGs out of residency programs right now would place the US at a considerable deficit of people to essentially all the work implied in medicine. Your lack of experience in the medical field is probably why you so far undermine the actual work performed by residents and fellows, which most certainly gives back to the community in real-time exponentially moreso than would an MBA.
 
you all can talk all you want but i still wont agree to the unfairness going on, US citizens should get preference and that is all i have to say about that. most of you are bias and don't realize the amount of discrimination going on and from the looks of it, never will.
 
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you all can talk all you want but i still wont agree to the unfairness going on, US citizens should get preference and that is all i have to say about that. most of you are bias and don't realize the amount of discrimination going on and from the looks of it, never will.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Please, read through the bolded parts over and over again. If you don't see the absurdity in your statement, there's not much else to say.
 
Anyone else think docu is the same as Turquoise Blue? The story and attitude fits to the "T".
 
... What I said previously is that if we are going to reform residency selection we should push for AAMC school graduates to be taken first and then select the best of the FMG/US-IMG candidates...

it pretty much already works this way if you appreciate that "best" sometimes incorporates english language and cultural skills on rotations rather than merely Step scores. The guy with top board scores from Pakistan who spent 3 years studying the USMLE but never dealt with US patient care isn't a better residency applicant than the guy from Ross who shined in his rotations in NY and got an above average Step. But he might be better than the guy who failed out of a US med school or multiple Steps. I think it thus does mostly work the way you describe -- no point in reform.
 
I hope everyone realizes this docu guy is probably a troll.. The system, while not perfect, roughly works towards putting qualified people in residencies, key work being qualified.

As an IMG from Ecuador let me tell you some people are just not cut to be a doctor, happens everywhere around the world and certainly on the US too.

The system already favors american citizens AND IT SHOULD STAY AS SO, but if you start putting UNqualified people in hospitals, healthcare quality would be compromised and you would just get a lot of dead patients.

My dos pesos..
 
The system does a pretty good job of selecting the most qualified applicants for residency possible based on the metrics available. Board scores don't correlate well to clinical acumen, but they're at least something.

To docu: US citizens DO get preferential treatment in the residency selection process. However, being a US citizen is not an absolute -- it doesn't make up for poor board scores, poor clerkship evals, etc, and it shouldn't.

Let me put it to you this way: if it was you, your wife, your daughter, etc in the hospital / on the operating table, would you rather have the US-IMG who barely passed their boards and clinicals or the FMG who worked their ass off and had stellar scores and clinical evals? I can tell you who I'd rather have taking care of my family member -- no question.
 
As an IMG from Ecuador let me tell you some people are just not cut to be a doctor, happens everywhere around the world and certainly on the US too.
.

Noone shoud detrmine wht somne else is ct out to be or not be.... except that person...
 
exactly doppleganger.
there are a lot of bullies on this forum that think they know it all just because they got residency or are in an american med school.
 
Noone shoud detrmine wht somne else is ct out to be or not be.... except that person...

I beg to differ. There's a lot of responsibility that comes with being a physician, and I think the system should work to try and encourage people who would not make good physicians into another field.

That said, I'm not sure our system does a very good job of selecting for criteria that make good clinicians, but there damn sure should be some kind of selection process.
 
Here are the facts:

The number of PGY1 IMG spots were 7,023 in 2010/11. Here are the stats: http://www.ecfmg.org/forms/factcard.pdf/...of those, 2881 nonUS matched.1749 US FMG's matched.....these numbers are insignificant thus,. 2418 spots that the IMG's obtained (US or non US) were obtained outside the match. i never see these spots advertised so they must be prematches. or something fishy is going on.

i heard that some foreign schools pay program directors to get their students in residency, so they have connections....i dont know what other fishyness is going on.

Where do US citizens go? they're stuck. its not right to hire foreign when they can hire their own that will stay in the country. J1 visas were made to fill a void of doctors in rural areas, but there will be no void if you hire ur own people. also they don't fill the void, they go whereever they want cuz there are no rules set for them.

scores don't mean anything. people have problems and not everyeone scores high. lets say i had ADD, and i probably did, i was on ADD meds for a while way after residency and they helped me focus better. i dont take them now but i dont need them, my focus came back to me. but back then i wish i took some meds for what i was going through, but was scared to. im not the kind of person to go to the doctor that easily, even though i am one. im fine now, i probably can score much better now, but i was going through something back then and dind't know if there was a cure i just tried the best i could.

anyways, soon india will have all their med school grads sign a contract to come back to their country after residency. why waste the spots on someone who won't be practicing here?

I wonder, does anyone have the stats of the US citizen IMG's that didn't match? I wonder if many of them were in residency before. because that number may match the number of applicants that lose residency every year.

Also, i guess next year there won't be any 'outside of the match' positions anymore, so maybe there will be more spots available than before according to this:"I'm a U.S. senior in an allopathic medical school and I've been offered a position outside the Match. What should I do?

NRMP policy stipulates that if any of a sponsoring institution's graduate medical education programs participates in the NRMP's Main Residency Match, all of the institution's programs, regardless of matching program participation status, must offer positions to U.S. seniors in allopathic medical schools only through the NRMP or another national matching plan. Offering a contract outside the Match is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement. U.S. allopathic seniors who obtain PGY-2 positions through another national matching plan must obtain their PGY-1 preliminary positions through the Main Residency Match and cannot be withdrawn by their schools to accept a PGY-1 position outside the Match at those institutions where the PGY-2 position was obtained"

unless this info pertains only to US seniors and not IMG's....
 
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Your arguments are garbled and wrong. US IMGs are more likely to get residency spots than non-US IMGs. Thus how are you being discriminated against? The system favors US trained students as it should, if you chose to subvert a system that determined you weren't good enough you can't cry about not getting a job, especially when the system still favors you over a non-US IMG.

J1 visas were not created to fill a void. J1 visas are exchange visitor visas which exist in all fields to promote relations and cultural and educational exchange between the US and other countries. The purpose of these visas is to allow foreigners to train in the US and bring their training back to their own countries. There is a waiver for the requirement to return home if the home country has no objection and the foreign graduate works in a medically underserved area. They will lose their visa and right to remain in the US if they cease working there. So yes it is enforced and is something US citizens do not do.

no medical school pays for residencies that doesn't even make sense. However many arab countries do pay for their graduates to receive US training and return to their home country to bring this knowledge and skill back. What is wrong with this? It is not usually at the expense of a US citizen as these spots are often created, and it is not done at the tax payer's expense.

As far as im aware, it is already the case that US suitable candidate has to be appointed preferentially. This doesn't always occur, but in the main it does. Thus if you can't get a job it means you are not considered a suitable candidate.

Practising medicine is not a right, it is a privilege. No one owes you anything. Not everyone who gets into medical school should be allowed to practice medicine, and you didn't even get into a US medical school. By your logic any american off the street should be preferred before a qualified FMG.
 
Being a resident doesn't make u an authority on anything.

Sent from my HTC Glacier using SDN Mobile
 
Your "facts" are garbled on don't make a lot of sense. Pre-matches have been available for many years and are available to US-IMGs and FMGs alike. I know a fair number of US-IMGs that acquired residencies in this way. Just because you never saw these spots doesn't make it unfair, it means you're probably not doing your due diligence. You say "i heard that some foreign schools pay program directors to get their students in residency, so they have connections." Any proof to back up that statement because otherwise its garbage in my book. This country and residencies are under no obligation to give you a residency position because you were a US citizen; you need to realize the mistakes you made, the deficiencies in your CV, and move on. The reason FMGs are getting spots over you is because they are more qualified with betters scores and they werent fired/resigned like you were. You say that India is going to mandate their grads to come back...it hasn't happened in 40 years. Again any proof or is this more BS without evidence?

Scores dont mean anything...well the majority of PDs would disagree with you. The USMLEs are a measure of what you learned in med school. As you previously stated, since you got the same education as a US med school and the same time frame to study, why the inferior scores? Having an ADD diagnosis or not does not change the standard you are expected to have.

The match will be changing to limit pre-matches. How that works out no one knows at this point.

You need to get over your xenophobic attitudes and recognize your own faults and deficiencies rather than blame your problems on FMGs.

im not xenophobic, im a xeno myself, except i was born here in the US.and am an FMG my parents are xeno. PD's are idiots to believe that scores are the only criteria. the reason most AMG seniors get in the first try is that they're AMG, their board scores dont matter. but they make IMG board scores matter. so that's not really fair.

why do you think im inferior to foreign born people? i dont think they're inferior but i also think they're not superior. they're education is much less than even a carribean or AMG, most of their technology is not even as advanced. do you see them have MRI's CTs? not much. they are very poor countries. why do you put my educaiton down and not thiers, tells me you dont know what the heck you're talking about.

for your info there will be NO prematches and i already know it is changing.
you need to realize you have faults too and are by no means perfect yourself.
taking to narrow minded ignorant people like yourself is like beating a dead horse..
just because i dont agree with you doesn't mean i dont deserve residency....

actually may not need residency. im about to work in urgent care and be a supervising physician and do injections. i mean what more could anyone want.
 
You should really improve on your writing, your first sentence doesnt make sense (I understood the gist overall your writing skills are poor based on what you've posted). You claim you are not xenophobic yet you consistently insult medical education FMGs receive without first hand knowledge of the situation and only blatant speculation. Even in this post you state, "they're education is much less than even a carribean or AMG, most of their technology is not even as advanced. do you see them have MRI's CTs? not much. they are very poor countries. why do you put my educaiton down and not thiers, tells me you dont know what the heck you're talking about." The problem with this statement is it is inaccurate. FMGs include students from the UK and other European countries which are not poor countries with a lack of access to technology. You went to med school in the West Indies which I would argue has far less cache than going to a UK school. As for most poor countries, as an example, Indian med schools are extremely difficulty to get into and recruit the best for the most part. I agree their can be some shady business in these countries but as a whole these schools recruit the best and brightest in their country. You have never stated what med school you went to other than its in the West Indies, its reputation or accreditation status; this leaves myself and others to believe that you went to what amounts to an MD diploma mill as most US-IMGs that are of higher caliber go to schools like SGU, ROSS, AUC, etc.

You don't like that board scores define your application but the reality is despite your claims of equivalent education to AMGs you went to a med school in the West Indies with no validation/accreditation in this country. Therefore, the only way to judge you is by your board scores to assess your level of knowledge. You did poorly, and PDs should judge you on that. Its not the only factor but with IM/FP PDs receiving thousands off apps, I dont blame them for filtering by using board scores, its a quick way to start.

i understand there are no prematches next year; however, their are exceptions. If a program pulls all their spots from ERAS/NRMP, my understanding is they can prematch them all but I am not certain of that.

Its great that you found a position; however, if it was perfect ("what more could anyone want") why are you on this board advocating you should be given a residency. The reality is a residency allows you to be board eligible/certified and opens your employement options up significantly. You dont seem willing to accept your mistakes including:
1) Your choice of med schools and the factors that led to you going to said med school
2)Your USMLE scores
3) Why you got booted from your first residency

Until you do, no one is going to be able to help you. Im done wasting my time talking to someone who is so fixated and dogmatic without truly examining the realities of the situation.

if you care about my writing skills, you should wonder can a lot of these visa people speak good english...no they cant. nor can they write well. if you want to complain about me, complain about them too. im talking about 3rd world countries. majority of residents that get in are indian according to studies. UK constitutes very few.
my accreditation of my med school is very close to LCME standards, so i wouldn't be talking about that if i were you.
you think u r right, but you are sorely wrong.
also, why do you think a person is no good until they listen to you. who died and made you God? don't forget, u'r just a resident. ur only unable to understand what i wrote is because there is something wrong with your comprehension. i understood it just fine myself. and i know anyone else in their right mind can.
stop insulting caribbean schools. they are good and many attendings have been from those schools for many many years. even my dad's partner was from there, he is rich as heck and owns race horses. one of my friends from my school works at a harvard hospital. there's no limit to what carribean grads can do. and they are smart as heck. one of my relatives went to my school and became a neurosurgeon.
 
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Take a big deep breath, everyone. This is a very raw subject for some, without an easy answer.

Many of docu's points have already been debated above.

1. I don't agree that "scores mean nothing". We certainly use scores to help decide / rank US grads also. And, IMHO, those residents with higher scores do tend to do better than those with lower scores. USMLE scores definitely tend to predict ABIM certification exam performance.

2. I believe you have confused the J and H visa issues (see below)

3. Lots of people claim that they "could have done better" on the USMLE. Not sure what I can say about that.

4. The difference in PGY-1 spots total and those in the match were likely all due to prematches. As mentioned above, programs will need to decide to be "all in" or not. Those programs that filled exclusively with prematches might decide to forgo the match completely. We will see.

Now, all that being said, docu does raise an interesting question / problem. Should the US issue work visas for non-citizens to fill residency positions at numbers greater than the number of US citizens / authorized workers who wish do to so? As mentioned above, J visas are designed as exchange visas -- residents come to the US, learn medicine from us, and then return to their home country. H visas, which are increasingly used for GME, are a work visa which theoretically require that an appropriately trained US citizen is unable to be found. This is where things become very sticky -- if two people want a spot, a US citizen who has passed all of the steps and graduated from medical school (so is "qualified" for a GME spot) but who isn't "competitive", vs a foreign grad who has been more "successful", whom should we train?

Some would argue that we should always favor the US citizen. They argue that US tax dollars go into GME training, and hence US citizens should have first dibs. Foreign physicians are welcome once all US citizens have positions. Also, US citizens are more likely to stay in the US to work, hence might be a better investment.

Others argue that we should take the "stronger" candidate, regardless of citizenship. They point out that US citizens already have many strengths, and hence outcompete foreign grads. They feel that the US healthcare field would be best served by having the best performing physicians, since residents will care for patients in the US.

Trying to do the former is going to be difficult to implement. I could imagine any number of ways to change the match, but ultimately you'll get to a position where 95% of US citizens have spots, and 5% don't (or 98% and 2%). At that point, programs are likely to "hold out" for when non-citizens become available.
 
Take a big deep breath, everyone. This is a very raw subject for some, without an easy answer.

Many of docu's points have already been debated above.

1. I don't agree that "scores mean nothing". We certainly use scores to help decide / rank US grads also. And, IMHO, those residents with higher scores do tend to do better than those with lower scores. USMLE scores definitely tend to predict ABIM certification exam performance.

2. I believe you have confused the J and H visa issues (see below)

3. Lots of people claim that they "could have done better" on the USMLE. Not sure what I can say about that.

4. The difference in PGY-1 spots total and those in the match were likely all due to prematches. As mentioned above, programs will need to decide to be "all in" or not. Those programs that filled exclusively with prematches might decide to forgo the match completely. We will see.

Now, all that being said, docu does raise an interesting question / problem. Should the US issue work visas for non-citizens to fill residency positions at numbers greater than the number of US citizens / authorized workers who wish do to so? As mentioned above, J visas are designed as exchange visas -- residents come to the US, learn medicine from us, and then return to their home country. H visas, which are increasingly used for GME, are a work visa which theoretically require that an appropriately trained US citizen is unable to be found. This is where things become very sticky -- if two people want a spot, a US citizen who has passed all of the steps and graduated from medical school (so is "qualified" for a GME spot) but who isn't "competitive", vs a foreign grad who has been more "successful", whom should we train?

Some would argue that we should always favor the US citizen. They argue that US tax dollars go into GME training, and hence US citizens should have first dibs. Foreign physicians are welcome once all US citizens have positions. Also, US citizens are more likely to stay in the US to work, hence might be a better investment.

Others argue that we should take the "stronger" candidate, regardless of citizenship. They point out that US citizens already have many strengths, and hence outcompete foreign grads. They feel that the US healthcare field would be best served by having the best performing physicians, since residents will care for patients in the US.

Trying to do the former is going to be difficult to implement. I could imagine any number of ways to change the match, but ultimately you'll get to a position where 95% of US citizens have spots, and 5% don't (or 98% and 2%). At that point, programs are likely to "hold out" for when non-citizens become available.

Thank you aProgDirector for giving light to this subject in a neutral manner! nice to hear an actual PD answer. :thumbup:
 
Some would argue that we should always favor the US citizen. They argue that US tax dollars go into GME training, and hence US citizens should have first dibs. Foreign physicians are welcome once all US citizens have positions. Also, US citizens are more likely to stay in the US to work, hence might be a better investment.

Others argue that we should take the "stronger" candidate, regardless of citizenship. They point out that US citizens already have many strengths, and hence outcompete foreign grads. They feel that the US healthcare field would be best served by having the best performing physicians, since residents will care for patients in the US.

Trying to do the former is going to be difficult to implement. I could imagine any number of ways to change the match, but ultimately you'll get to a position where 95% of US citizens have spots, and 5% don't (or 98% and 2%). At that point, programs are likely to "hold out" for when non-citizens become available.

I'm not really sure we should always favor the US citizen/permanent residents, either. The implementation, however, shouldn't be that difficult. Doesn't Canada's match system favor Canadian citizens who trained at Canadian schools (multiple rounds of the match with the first round only open these students)? The seems like a pretty reasonable way of doing things if it is decided that it makes sense to favor people who will stay in the US: Round one for seniors/grads of AAMC-accredited schools, round two for AACOM-accredited schools, round three for others.
 
Well it is not that way. why should all AMG's get preference. what if there are mediocre ones. touche.
 
Well it is not that way. why should all AMG's get preference. what if there are mediocre ones. touche.

Just clarifying: So you want US citizens to have preference over non-citizens but at the same time you want AMG's to be equal to IMG's?
 
i was being sarcastic. and trying to prove my point that everyone wants what makes themselves have the most opportunity. if AMG's get preference because this is their country, why cant US citizens do the same thing? they too have no where else to go, though they trained elsewhere.
 
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i was being sarcastic. and trying to prove my point that everyone wants what makes themselves have the most opportunity. if AMG's get preference because this is their country, why cant US citizens do the same thing? they too have no where else to go, though they trained elsewhere.

Agree on that.
 
i think i'll never get in regardless of being a US citizen due to having a past residency. :( i have tried many times and usually get one bogus prelim interview from the same old place that probably invited me to fill a quota number of interviews. they haven't picked me for 3 straight years in a row. i don't even want to apply for next year because it is the exact same thing year after year. i hope to God i get this urgent care job cuz maybe it will be something i like..

i was just helping some other people fight for their US citizen rights, not really about me. personally, im a dead duck.
 
i think i'll never get in regardless of being a US citizen due to having a past residency. :( i have tried many times and usually get one bogus prelim interview from the same old place that probably invited me to fill a quota number of interviews. they haven't picked me for 3 straight years in a row. i don't even want to apply for next year because it is the exact same thing year after year. i hope to God i get this urgent care job cuz maybe it will be something i like..

i was just helping some other people fight for their US citizen rights, not really about me. personally, im a dead duck.

I'm sorry for your situation but I'm still not sure why you think that residency is a "right" of all graduates of medical schools who are US citizens. If a US citizen goes to medical school in Kyrgyzstan (picked totally at random) at a medical school not recognized for licensure in the US should that person be entitled to a US residency spot? How about a US citizen who graduates from a US medical school at the bottom of their class after three attempts at step 1 and 2 and who has been cited for unprofessional behavior? It's a privilege to practice medicine, not a right. No one owes you anything just because you're an American who graduated from medical school.
 
I'm sorry for your situation but I'm still not sure why you think that residency is a "right" of all graduates of medical schools who are US citizens. If a US citizen goes to medical school in Kyrgyzstan (picked totally at random) at a medical school not recognized for licensure in the US should that person be entitled to a US residency spot? How about a US citizen who graduates from a US medical school at the bottom of their class after three attempts at step 1 and 2 and who has been cited for unprofessional behavior? It's a privilege to practice medicine, not a right. No one owes you anything just because you're an American who graduated from medical school.

i know that physicsnerd42,i dont think its a right, its a right within reason. you took what i said out of context. but there are PHD's out there, people that completely redeemed themselves and still never picked. its that there's no redemption or remediation in medicine, they only allow you one shot and one mistake and you're career is over. i think there should be measures to take to improve and become a good doctor despite one slight mistake you may have made during ur education. there is nothing of the sort in the career of medicine.
 
Docu,

I worry that your anger may be somewhat misplaced here. On this thread (and several others) you complain that US citizens who train in foreign schools get excluded from training in place of non-US citizens. As I mentioned above in this thread, this is a real concern/issue and deserves discussion.

However, your story appears to be somewhat more complicated than this. You haven;t been completely clear with your background (which is understandable on a public website). However, in this post you describe that:

1. You are a US IMG 8 years of ouf training (in 2011)
2. You have low step scores and several "attempts" (i.e. you failed some steps)
3. You were in a residency program, and were let go.

I hate to say this, but even if you were a US grad, getting a residency spot with that history is going to be difficult. You're situation is going to be seen as "high risk" -- you've already failed out once, you've been away from the insanity of inpatient clinical medicine for some time, your USMLE scores are low. You have not used up your funding (as suggested in some of your posts), it's these other things that are preventing you from getting a spot.
 
Thanks aProgdirector. I realize my situation is not very good. I'm really tired of applying. I think i wont even apply for next year unless i have some connections, which i dont have. Luckily I have job ops in line, which is better than nothing, although not ideal.
 
Where did you get the stupid idea that medical school admissions is entirely based on merit?

State of residence has a tremendous bearing on an applicant's probability of getting accepted to medical school. Look at the average matriculant's MCAT and GPA table from AAMC broken down by state of residence. https://www.aamc.org/download/161700/data/table21.pdf

You will see that applicants from states such as West Virginia, South Dakota, Illinois and Louisiana are held to a much lower standard than applicants from Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota and New Hampshire. I've examined these data over the last 15 years and I can tell you that some states are ALWAYS much tougher than some other states.

Furthermore admissions officers are too lazy and stupid to normalize applicants' transcripts to account for the rigor of the undergraduate college and major. This is the reason that less than 15% of the matriculants to medical schools are physical science majors and 33% have majors that include phys ed and art.

Furthermore I don't want to see U.S. tax money being spent on the residency training of people who may not practice medicine here. I don't care if some resident pays $12,000 of his/her salary back in federal and state taxes. The residency they are taking cost the U.S. taxpayers about $150,000 per year. That money should be spent on Americans who will practice here.

The fallacy in that argument is there is nothing requiring US citizens to stay in the US and practice, and some do choose to practice elsewhere after completing training.
 
I'm a GP and have a license and I've been looking for job opportunities (besides home care). I haven't been able to find much on craigslist or simplyhired.com or even googling it. I read somewhere that one can work in a rural ED non BE/BC, but where exactly do you find such jobs?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
 
is there a particular website or recruitment company where i can find those sorts of jobs. I have been having a hard time finding anything non BE/BC.
 
I'm not sure if i want to apply this year or not. i never make the match. my scores are low. i passed all 3 steps though. i was in residency before, but i got it in the post scramble scramble. should i completely give up or are there certain programs that might take me ( a person who was in residency before)? or should i completely give up.
any specialty is fine.

Thanks.
 
What hurts your app is the multiple attempts on the Steps, being let go from a previous residency and the number of years that have passed since you graduated from an offshore med school. Unfortunately the odds are stacked against you. Without significantly changing your application in some way since the last time you applied, you're not going to have any success.
 
What hurts your app is the multiple attempts on the Steps, being let go from a previous residency and the number of years that have passed since you graduated from an offshore med school. Unfortunately the odds are stacked against you. Without significantly changing your application in some way since the last time you applied, you're not going to have any success.

what exactly are programs looking to see for someone like me?
i own a company that does house calls and i also am about to be part owner of an urgent care where i'll be working. is that enough?
 
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