Promoting Leadership Training in Podiatry

[Bored Snorlax]

In the United States, there are over 4 million nurses and 150,000 PAs, while podiatrists amount to only 20,000. When we consider the numbers, it becomes clear that there exists a significant discrepancy in representation. Despite having comparable education to our esteemed MD/DO counterparts, podiatrists face a narrow scope of practice compared to other professions with less training. These professions are actively pushing for legislation to expand their practice scope, and the pandemic has further accelerated their progress. At the town hall yesterday, an interesting proposal emerged, suggesting that podiatrists actively pursue leadership positions at hospitals.

To address this issue, I propose promoting leadership training at all levels of podiatric medical education through various means such as classrooms, workshops, seminars, CMEs, and guest speakers. This approach would compensate for our smaller numbers and grant us influence to protect our hospital privileges and explore new opportunities. Additionally, it would increase public awareness and instill confidence in the field of podiatry.

With the recent decline in podiatry matriculation, our profession is vulnerable with limited representation, while other health professions continue to experience rapid job growth and increased legislative support. I hope that individuals in positions of power who come across this message will reflect on this and guide podiatry toward the right direction. The success of each podiatrist will be beneficial for all of us in the broader context. Please feel free to share your thoughts on this matter.

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[newfeet]

I agree. I need actual mentorship when it comes to hospital leadership roles. I’ve join one committee so far work and it’s not a big one. I also need to actively start getting involved in national associations (like the podiatry ones and ADA) because my job likes that stuff.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

All the bitching on SDN accomplishes nothing

 

[Weirdy]

Perhaps you should focus on finishing your 2nd year of podiatry school first.

Or bring it up to your student orgs.

 

[Feli]

Biz and leadership and such are great, but the ppl doing them well aren't typically pod school faculty.

Pod school is to get you the basics.
You are talking more MHA/MBA type info.

 

[air bud]

I would instead propose the idea of always think about rule number 1.

 

[Pronation]

Before anyone bothers reading OP’s post… this person is 2 years into pod school… and also possibly using chat gpt

 

[dpmgrad]

There are many leadership training opportunities for DPMs and physicians in general. As Feli mentioned, an option would be the MHA or MBA or MS in Healthcare Leadership route. I did go this route and got my MBA. However, this option may not be for everyone due to time commitment and/or cost. Some of the major hospital systems offer in-house leadership development programs. For example, Dept of Veterans Affairs offer leadership training program. Some of the healthcare leadership organizations, such as American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) and American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE), offer plenty of physician leadership training courses and resources. By the way, AAPL now accepts DPM for membership, but DPMs are still not eligible their Certified Physician Executive credentials. I am a member of both organizations. There are many healthcare organization that offers healthcare leadership courses, such as American College of Physicians (DPM will likely need to join as an affiliate member to access this training) and ACFAS (eg. Chris Mahaffey Leadership Development Program). There are many universities and private companies that offer healthcare leadership development courses, often as executive education offering. For example, Stanford (Physician Leadership Certificate Program - Cohort 2023), HANYS with Cornell (The Academy for Healthcare Leadership Advancement), Harvard (Surgical Leadership and Leadership Development for Physicians in Academic Health Centers) Univ of Chicago (Physician Leadership Program | Chicago Booth Executive Education) and Daniel Hanley Center for Health Leadership (Physician & Provider Executive Leadership Institute - Daniel Hanley Center for Healthcare Leadership). I am sure if you google physician leadership development courses, you will find even more resources.

 

[Feli]

... At the town hall yesterday, an interesting proposal emerged...

Waidumminit, I just saw the part above. That little meeting featured a lady who said she failed ABFAS didactic nine times who was appointed to ABPM board of directors...

...but your main take-home was leadership?

I would say podiatrist core curriculum and competence. Horse b4 cart?

 

[Bored Snorlax]

There are many options for leadership training opportunities for DPMs and physicians in general. As Feli mentioned, an option would be the MHA or MBA or MS in Healthcare Leadership route. I did go this route and got my MBA. However, this option may not be for everyone due to time commitment and/or cost. Some of the major hospital systems offer in-house leadership development programs. For example, Dept of Veterans Affairs offer leadership training program and Some of the healthcare leadership organizations, such as American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) and American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE), offer plenty of physician leadership training courses and resources. By the way, AAPL now accepts DPM for membership, but DPMs are still not eligible their Certified Physician Executive credentials. I am a member of both organizations. There are many healthcare organization that offers healthcare leadership courses, such as American College of Physicians (though it is not likely opened to DPM unless the DPM joins as an affiliate member) and ACFAS (eg. Chris Mahaffey Leadership Program). There are many universities and private companies that offer healthcare leadership development courses, often as executive education offering. For example, Stanford (Physician Leadership Certificate Program - Cohort 2023), HANYS with Cornell (The Academy for Healthcare Leadership Advancement), Harvard (Surgical Leadership and Leadership Development for Physicians in Academic Health Centers) Univ of Chicago (Physician Leadership Program | Chicago Booth Executive Education) and Daniel Hanley Center for Health Leadership (Physician & Provider Executive Leadership Institute - Daniel Hanley Center for Healthcare Leadership). I am sure if you google physician leadership development courses, you many find even more resources.

Thanks for the information. I will definitely check these out. You bring up a good point about the time commitment and cost. I suppose a lot of this would have to be self-learned.

Waidumminit, that little meeting featured a lady who said she failed ABFAS didactic nine times who was appointed to ABPM board of directors...

...but your main take-home was leadership?

I would say core curriculum and competence. Horse b4 cart?

She was very passionate and I commend her persistence. Frankly, I was more interested in learning about the history of podiatry and how we ended up to this point. You did watch it, Feli

 

[dpmgrad]

Thanks for the information. I will definitely check these out. You bring up a good point about the time commitment and cost. I suppose a lot of this would have to be self-learned.


She was very passionate and I commend her persistence. Frankly, I was more interested in learning about the history of podiatry and how we ended up to this point. You did watch it, Feli

As newfeet mentioned, mentorship is also very important. Some of these programs do offer mentorship as well. For example, the ACFAS leadership program and Harvard Surgical Leadership development program offer mentorship.

 

[Feli]

...She was very passionate and I commend her persistence. Frankly, I was more interested in learning about the history of podiatry and how we ended up to this point. You did watch it, Feli

A couple ppl texted me about that last night. I guess that was the lowlight of the town hall: that she was appointed to Abpm and expects one podiatry med/surg board and to be grandfathered in... that Abfas is too hard and unfair?

In reality, people like that are why there will always be alternative board(s) with Abpm, Ables, Abmsp... people who can't pass despite doing pod school + residency need something for hospitals or occasional insurances.

Failing a didactic exam a ton of times is not persistent tho... that's crazy. After even a few fails, she was just throwing away money. It's not lottery tickets or something random that you'll eventually win. With exams like Mcat or Abfas or whatever, you either know it or you don't... and massive studying would be needed for retake to yield a different outcome.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

A couple ppl texted me about that last night. I guess that was the lowlight of the town hall: that she was appointed to Abpm and expects one podiatry med/surg board and to be grandfathered in... that Abfas is too hard and unfair?

In reality, people like that are why there will always be alternative board(s) with Abpm, Ables, Abmsp... people who can't pass despite doing pod school + residency need something for hospitals or occasional insurances.

Failing a didactic exam a ton of times is not persistent... that's crazy. It's not lottery tickets or something random that you'll eventually win. With exams like Mcat or Abfas or whatever, you either know it or you don't... and massive studying would be needed for retake to yield a different outcome.

The ABFAS/ABPM issue is too complex and both sides have their own supporting argument. The leadership idea suggested last night seemed very reasonable to me.

P.S. this topic is unrelated to board certification. It's simply an idea that was brought up during the town hall.

 

[FutureDPM323]

how are you gonna fail an exam 9 times and be the board of anything ☠️



….because podiatry

 

[Bored Snorlax]

how are you gonna fail an exam 9 times and be the board of anything ☠️



….because podiatry

To be fair Edison wouldn't have invented the light bulb

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

To be fair Edison wouldn't have invented the light bulb

You should get off SDN and focus on school and then think about why you are still putting yourself through this. Seriously...

 

[Boba Foot]

After even a few fails, she was just throwing away money. It's not lottery tickets or something random that you'll eventually win. With exams like Mcat or Abfas or whatever, you either know it or you don't

Lets say ABFAS shafts you on one or two more tries on the case submission. We here all know that you are a competent surgeon, an intelligent physician, and a great mentor on SDN. How many more tries and cold hard ca$$h thrown down ABFAS‘ gullet until you call a spade a spade and realize that you are an excellent surgeon but ABFAS is **** and a money-gouging scam meant to gatekeep? Or is it the gatekeeping that you’ve always liked? But then what do you when BQ expires and youre not BC, and them you’re just DPM?

 

[newfeet]

There are many leadership training opportunities for DPMs and physicians in general. As Feli mentioned, an option would be the MHA or MBA or MS in Healthcare Leadership route. I did go this route and got my MBA. However, this option may not be for everyone due to time commitment and/or cost. Some of the major hospital systems offer in-house leadership development programs. For example, Dept of Veterans Affairs offer leadership training program. Some of the healthcare leadership organizations, such as American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) and American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE), offer plenty of physician leadership training courses and resources. By the way, AAPL now accepts DPM for membership, but DPMs are still not eligible their Certified Physician Executive credentials. I am a member of both organizations. There are many healthcare organization that offers healthcare leadership courses, such as American College of Physicians (DPM will likely need to join as an affiliate member to access this training) and ACFAS (eg. Chris Mahaffey Leadership Development Program). There are many universities and private companies that offer healthcare leadership development courses, often as executive education offering. For example, Stanford (Physician Leadership Certificate Program - Cohort 2023), HANYS with Cornell (The Academy for Healthcare Leadership Advancement), Harvard (Surgical Leadership and Leadership Development for Physicians in Academic Health Centers) Univ of Chicago (Physician Leadership Program | Chicago Booth Executive Education) and Daniel Hanley Center for Health Leadership (Physician & Provider Executive Leadership Institute - Daniel Hanley Center for Healthcare Leadership). I am sure if you google physician leadership development courses, you will find even more resources.

How are the AAPL live meetings? I live taken a few of the on demand courses.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

How are the AAPL live meetings? I live taken a few of the on demand courses.

you talking apple stock?

 

[heybrother]

Some of what the OP describes is actually the purpose of our PACs and what not. Has anyone ever given a substantial amount of money to a PAC ie. ..more than $1000?

 

[Feli]

Lets say ABFAS shafts you on one or two more tries on the case submission...
... what do you when BQ expires and youre not BC, and them you’re just DPM?

I haven't failed Abfas BQ didactic, passed all first try (fair % don't) and passes re-qual also. I was saying to fail 9x didactic and expect BC is bonkers. That is a huge failing by pod schools and residency and scary to think that person was appointed (not elected) to Abpm 'leadership' role and believes they have time for such.

I failed Abfas BC cases last year on first submit (many do the same). This year, I appealed (missed by narrowest margin possible, had sent in a contralat xr set on accident)... so that's in process.

I'd have a few BQ more years to try BC, but I likely would not try for a year or two as i 99% won't be able to get my charts from 2021-23 group. I took my charts from 2019-21 hospital job, but 2020 had very little with covid. I do a good amount now, but BQ would expire by the time most have appreciable f/u outcomes. Maybe not.

Bottom line is don't job hop... or take all charts/xr on surg pts with you.

If you or me or anyone does run outta time on ABFAS cases (or can't pass didactic after serious re-study), then yes, you have to do an alternate podiatry board for situations that need board cert. Abpm was good for that, but it's essentially reduced to a fake board now with 2022-23 games and board of directors quitting and wasting of membership monies. Unless Abpm rebuilds, i would honestly consider another alt board. Im not in that situation though. I feel bad fir anyone with Abfas qual status expiring this year while Abpm is such a dog and pony show. You will be surprised how few things non-Abfas boards are needed/useful for, though. Abfas helps a ton for jobs and privileges... in some places, even that won't help much/any.

 

[newfeet]

you talking apple stock?

Nope the American Association of Physician Leadership… though I would like to get some inside trading info on apple too.

 

[Hybrocure]

I would instead propose the idea of always think about rule number 1.

Treat others the way you would like to be treated?

 

[Pronation]

Treat others the way you would like to be treated?

Ugh…

Welcome to Pod Club. The first rule of Pod Club is: you do not talk about Pod Club. The second rule of Pod Club is: you DO NOT talk about Pod Club! Third rule of Pod Club: if someone yells “stop!”, goes limp, or taps out, the debridement is over. Fourth rule: only two guys to a nipper. Fifth rule: one debridement at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: the debridements are bare knuckle. No 3wea, no lotions, no baths. Seventh rule: debridements will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Pod Club, you have to clip.

 

[air bud]

Treat others the way you would like to be treated?

Rule number 1 is look out for number 1 (yourself). Rule number 2 is remember rule number 1.

 

[Feli]

Rule number 1 is look out for number 1 (yourself). Rule number 2 is remember rule number 1.

100% ^^

Plenty of pod school grads look back and wish they'd have done less ECs or partying so they could've worked a little harder and matched a little better.
...You really see zero wishing they'd had lower class rank or gpa and less match options or a tougher time passing boards.

It's a very expensive game with career-long effects. Make your decisions accordingly.

 

[newfeet]

100% ^^

Plenty of pod school grads look back and wish they'd have done less ECs or partying so they could've worked a little harder and matched a little better.
...You really see zero wishing they'd had lower class rank or gpa and less match options or a tougher time passing boards.

It's a very expensive game with career-long effects. Make your decisions accordingly.

I wish I partied more but I had to work my butt off to be middle of the road. I still matched to my number 1 choice. Don’t regret it.

 

[Boba Foot]

Bottom line is don't job hop... or take all charts/xr on surg pts with you.

Or they could just not fail people for documentation reasons. But they do, because $$$

 

[air bud]

100% ^^

Plenty of pod school grads look back and wish they'd have done less ECs or partying so they could've worked a little harder and matched a little better.
...You really see zero wishing they'd had lower class rank or gpa and less match options or a tougher time passing boards.

It's a very expensive game with career-long effects. Make your decisions accordingly.

Well that's just life in general, I'm just talking in it from a very strictly nihilistic perspective....

 

[ChartingChad]

To address this issue, I propose promoting leadership training at all levels of podiatric medical education through various means such as classrooms, workshops, seminars, CMEs, and guest speakers. This approach would compensate for our smaller numbers and grant us influence to protect our hospital privileges and explore new opportunities. Additionally, it would increase public awareness and instill confidence in the field of podiatry.

This would almost certainly result in students now paying more money (i.e. get into more debt) to be forced to take classes about leadership by teachers who aren't leaders themselves.

You likely can't learn how to be a leader from a classroom or a book. If it is something that you can learn through a book (Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink is great, for example) then why would we force students to take on more debt and spend more time for something they can likely learn better with a $10 book on Amazon?

 

[GreenHousePub]

This would almost certainly result in students now paying more money (i.e. get into more debt) to be forced to take classes about leadership by teachers who aren't leaders themselves.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

This would almost certainly result in students now paying more money (i.e. get into more debt) to be forced to take classes about leadership by teachers who aren't leaders themselves.

You likely can't learn how to be a leader from a classroom or a book. If it is something that you can learn through a book (Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink is great, for example) then why would we force students to take on more debt and spend more time for something they can likely learn better with a $10 book on Amazon?

Thank you for bringing the discussion back on track. DPMgrad previously raised this concern and I agree there is a cost and time involved in pursuing leadership roles, but also ways to reduce expenses. Even a few hrs of annual leadership education can help spread awareness. It doesn't necessarily have to be in a classroom, and certainly not a full course (in hindsight I should have made this clarification). Per BLS data, podiatry's projected growth is 2% from 2021-2031, while PAs and NPs are expected to grow much faster @ 28% and 40%. Personally, I think matriculation will likely normalize in a few years, as the past few years were likely outliers due to a combination of people delaying graduation due to COVID and the "Fauci Effect" leading to increased DO applications during the 2021-2022 cycle.

I don't think SDN has a significant impact on total matriculation, perhaps influencing some top candidates, but not the bottom. Schools will fill their seats because there will always be applicants who do not have MD/DO stats. Regardless of future matriculation trend, the representation gap in podiatry remains significant compared to other fields, despite the tremendous work done by APMA and other advocating orgs.

Podiatry is unique because of training (4 yrs + 3yrs residency) which means individuals have opportunities to take on higher leadership roles such as being part of a hospital committee, department head, chief of surgery section, etc. By assuming leadership roles, we can influence hospital policies, prevent negative policies towards podiatry, and create new opportunities for future podiatrists. I understand not everyone may be interested in assuming these positions due to various commitments, but even a small increase in such roles would make a positive difference.

 

[Pronation]

Thank you for bringing the discussion back on track. DPMgrad previously raised this concern and I agree there is a cost and time involved in pursuing leadership roles, but also ways to reduce expenses. Even a few hrs of annual leadership education can help spread awareness. It doesn't necessarily have to be in a classroom, and certainly not a full course (in hindsight I should have made this clarification). Per BLS data, podiatry's projected growth is 2% from 2021-2031, while PAs and NPs are expected to grow much faster @ 28% and 40%. Personally, I think matriculation will likely normalize in a few years, as the past few years were likely outliers due to a combination of people delaying graduation due to COVID and the "Fauci Effect" leading to increased DO applications during the 2021-2022 cycle.

I don't think SDN has a significant impact on total matriculation, perhaps influencing some top candidates, but not the bottom. Schools will fill their seats because there will always be applicants who do not have MD/DO stats. Regardless of future matriculation trend, the representation gap in podiatry remains significant compared to other fields, despite the tremendous work done by APMA and other advocating orgs.

Podiatry is unique because of training (4 yrs + 3yrs residency) which means individuals have opportunities to take on higher leadership roles such as being part of a hospital committee, department head, chief of surgery section, etc. By assuming leadership roles, we can influence hospital policies, prevent negative policies towards podiatry, and create new opportunities for future podiatrists. I understand not everyone may be interested in assuming these positions due to various commitments, but even a small increase in such roles would make a positive difference.

Just wanted to remind everyone once again before they waste their time reading the above that OP is a second year student.

Talk to us some more about leadership in 5 years when you take your first job for less than a PA makes.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Thank you for bringing the discussion back on track. DPMgrad previously raised this concern and I agree there is a cost and time involved in pursuing leadership roles, but also ways to reduce expenses. Even a few hrs of annual leadership education can help spread awareness. It doesn't necessarily have to be in a classroom, and certainly not a full course (in hindsight I should have made this clarification). Per BLS data, podiatry's projected growth is 2% from 2021-2031, while PAs and NPs are expected to grow much faster @ 28% and 40%. Personally, I think matriculation will likely normalize in a few years, as the past few years were likely outliers due to a combination of people delaying graduation due to COVID and the "Fauci Effect" leading to increased DO applications during the 2021-2022 cycle.

I don't think SDN has a significant impact on total matriculation, perhaps influencing some top candidates, but not the bottom. Schools will fill their seats because there will always be applicants who do not have MD/DO stats. Regardless of future matriculation trend, the representation gap in podiatry remains significant compared to other fields, despite the tremendous work done by APMA and other advocating orgs.

Podiatry is unique because of training (4 yrs + 3yrs residency) which means individuals have opportunities to take on higher leadership roles such as being part of a hospital committee, department head, chief of surgery section, etc. By assuming leadership roles, we can influence hospital policies, prevent negative policies towards podiatry, and create new opportunities for future podiatrists. I understand not everyone may be interested in assuming these positions due to various commitments, but even a small increase in such roles would make a positive difference.

Crush your classes, crush the scam board exams, crush externships, dedicate all your free time to a strong residency program and scrub as much as you can, network aggressively starting today for your future job, find a fair paying job then worry about leadership. If one of the above is not accomplished, I promise you this will be the last thing you want to accomplish. Just because you see the few pods on LinkedIn claiming they’re chief of this or department head of this, it’s far and few that certain hospitals create this exact role for them.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Just wanted to remind everyone once again before they waste their time reading the above that OP is a second year student.

Talk to us some more about leadership in 5 years when you take your first job for less than a PA makes.

Yeah it was ok until the last paragraph.

 

[Adam Smasher]

We have a "dog chasing a car" problem with a lot of our political aims. Even if we catch it, what would we do with it?

You want to be chair of surgery for your hospital? Great, what are you going to do with that role? It's time consuming, you have to be involved in deciding non-podiatry things like safety policy and procedures and make sure surgeons show up on time and don't delay their cases and utilize their blocks. Sometimes there's a stipend but it's not that great. Hopefully you get something intangible out of it for yourself. You wanna help podiatrists? Best case scenario they figure you're pretty cool but these other non-op DPMs are a bunch of toenail cutters.

I'm not saying don't try. It may be a fulfilling and stimulating opportunity if/when it comes. I'm just saying it won't generate the positive spillovers for your colleagues and future pod students that you think it will.

 

[heybrother]

Thank you for bringing the discussion back on track. DPMgrad previously raised this concern and I agree there is a cost and time involved in pursuing leadership roles, but also ways to reduce expenses. Even a few hrs of annual leadership education can help spread awareness. It doesn't necessarily have to be in a classroom, and certainly not a full course (in hindsight I should have made this clarification). Per BLS data, podiatry's projected growth is 2% from 2021-2031, while PAs and NPs are expected to grow much faster @ 28% and 40%. Personally, I think matriculation will likely normalize in a few years, as the past few years were likely outliers due to a combination of people delaying graduation due to COVID and the "Fauci Effect" leading to increased DO applications during the 2021-2022 cycle.

I don't think SDN has a significant impact on total matriculation, perhaps influencing some top candidates, but not the bottom. Schools will fill their seats because there will always be applicants who do not have MD/DO stats. Regardless of future matriculation trend, the representation gap in podiatry remains significant compared to other fields, despite the tremendous work done by APMA and other advocating orgs.

Podiatry is unique because of training (4 yrs + 3yrs residency) which means individuals have opportunities to take on higher leadership roles such as being part of a hospital committee, department head, chief of surgery section, etc. By assuming leadership roles, we can influence hospital policies, prevent negative policies towards podiatry, and create new opportunities for future podiatrists. I understand not everyone may be interested in assuming these positions due to various commitments, but even a small increase in such roles would make a positive difference.

So here's my problem - I think you see leadership as something "BIG", another degree, letters etc. And apparently there are paths for that. My suspicion is that most of the time leadership is thankless committee work focused on delivery of savings, efficiency, and meeting regulatory requirements. Blah - while writing this - adamsmasher probably already nailed it.

Its work. Its probably uncompensated. And its thankless. If you join committees because you are going to fight for podiatry you likely aren't going to get anywhere. All of the people at the table would probably like to help their specialty.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like about podiatry and its relevance to other professions. There's a joke out there about Edible Arrangements proves capitalism is a lie. To me podiatry is the Edible Arrangements of medicine. Makes no sense. Costs too much. Time will tell.

 

[dpmgrad]

How are the AAPL live meetings? I live taken a few of the on demand courses.

Both AAPL and various ACHE live meetings have been very good. However, there are certain meetings/courses/events that are better than others.