Pros/Cons in podiatry?

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golfmontpoker

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Feet interest me :p Anyways, im actually inspiring on going to dental school, but podiatry also interests me. Pros and cons folks? Like salary and job outlook (Is there a need for podiatrists? unlike chiropracters for example)? Different specializations? Difficulty of admissions? Can DAT be substituted (really dont feel like taking MCAT and DAT)? And any other basic pros and cons? Thanx everyone!

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Pros: both clinical/surgical medicine; pay is great (111K average pay according to the Department of Labor); the demand is growing; Early speciallization (you know what you are going into unlike MD/DO route, that means less uncertainity and pressure)

Cons: on average pods don't make as much as dentists (average is 133K)

I tink that if you are interested in podiatry, try to shadow a pod in your area. That way you can decide on the pros and cons, b/c I think that pros/cons are individaulistic. As for specialization, pediatrics, biomechanics/sports med, surgical, wound care.

As for the admission questions, it is easier to get into a pod school than a school of denistry. There are some schools that take the DAT. I can only speak about DMU, they do take the DAT.
 
Don't be too confused by salary reports. These numbers are usually skewed for various reasons (part-timers, huge differences in training, etc). Pods coming out with good surgical training these days do very well. There are way too many PROS to name all of them.
-Pods are very needed. NO ONE in medicine even attempts to medically treat the foot. Pods are it. Surgically, no one can touch us.

Cons:
-You have to be sure that you want to be a foot & ankle specialist. Unlike other programs, you can't change your mind halfway through. I've seen it happen and these people are out a lot of time and money. As Feelgood said, SHADOW, SHADOW, SHADOW! Make sure!
-Admissions: Many programs are not very hard to get into. So, while there are many qualified students at all of the schools, some programs push students through that probably don't belong. These students usually ultimately fail. I'd be willing to bet that these people make up the majority of the "pod haters". If you are a very hard worker, did well in undergrad, and do well on the entrance exams (I prefer the MCAT), you will do well. If you've had serious academic issues in the past, I'd think long and hard about it. Podiatric medicine is a 7 year commitment (4 yrs school + 3 yrs residency). And believe me, it is a long, tough road.
 
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golfmontpoker said:
Feet interest me :p Anyways, im actually inspiring on going to dental school, but podiatry also interests me. Pros and cons folks? Like salary and job outlook (Is there a need for podiatrists? unlike chiropracters for example)? Different specializations? Difficulty of admissions? Can DAT be substituted (really dont feel like taking MCAT and DAT)? And any other basic pros and cons? Thanx everyone!

Are chiropractors not needed?? By buddy just got out of chiropractic college and he's doing amazing.. He pulled in $85,000 profit in his FIRST year. I found that shocking because there MUST be a demand for them.
 
jesse14 said:
Are chiropractors not needed?? By buddy just got out of chiropractic college and he's doing amazing.. He pulled in $85,000 profit in his FIRST year. I found that shocking because there MUST be a demand for them.

According to the department of labor, chiropractors will increase by 22% in the next 10 years. So yes their is a demand for chiropractors
 
Dr_Feelgood said:
According to the department of labor, chiropractors will increase by 22% in the next 10 years. So yes their is a demand for chiropractors

Although the outlook for Chiro's might be better, because of more people turning towards alternative forms of medicine in the future. I don't know if having an increase in Chiro's necessarily means that the demand will follow. I don't believe that schools always generate professionals according to demand.

How about Podiatrists? Are they expected to increase, decrease, or remain the same? From what I have seen, the demand is expected to grow on average with everything else. Also, it is noted that the reason why there will not be a huge demand like primary care physicians, is because of the older DPM's will be working until they retire.

But I am questioning this because the majority of older DPM's do not have the residencies to do all the surgery. Then my question is: Does having a 2 or 3 year surgical residency increase your demand? Also, could it be possible that there could someday be a saturation of DPM's with 2 or 3 year surgical residencies because everyone graduating now is getting one of these?
Or will the DPM's of the future take back all of the Foot and Ankle cases that the few MD's have consumed. Also, with the Diabetes being at an all time high, affecting patients younger than ever, that will we see a lot of foot problems.

Just want to hear your thoughts.
 
doclm said:
Although the outlook for Chiro's might be better, because of more people turning towards alternative forms of medicine in the future. I don't know if having an increase in Chiro's necessarily means that the demand will follow. I don't believe that schools always generate professionals according to demand.

How about Podiatrists? Are they expected to increase, decrease, or remain the same? From what I have seen, the demand is expected to grow on average with everything else. Also, it is noted that the reason why there will not be a huge demand like primary care physicians, is because of the older DPM's will be working until they retire.

But I am questioning this because the majority of older DPM's do not have the residencies to do all the surgery. Then my question is: Does having a 2 or 3 year surgical residency increase your demand? Also, could it be possible that there could someday be a saturation of DPM's with 2 or 3 year surgical residencies because everyone graduating now is getting one of these?
Or will the DPM's of the future take back all of the Foot and Ankle cases that the few MD's have consumed. Also, with the Diabetes being at an all time high, affecting patients younger than ever, that will we see a lot of foot problems.

Just want to hear your thoughts.
I do think a 3 year surgical residency makes you a lot more valuable as far as employment is concerned. I don't believe that podiatry is in any danger of being saturated anymore so than any other area of medicine. Especially with the small class sizes as of late and the huge discrepancy in training that is still out there. However, podiatry ran into that problem back in the early 90's where they were graduating more students than they had available residencies. Some of the deans refused to cap their class sizes (all in the name of $$$). I believe that it really hurt the profession because you had and still have some VERY bitter people out there (just read some of the other forums).
 
golfmontpoker said:
Feet interest me :p Anyways, im actually inspiring on going to dental school, but podiatry also interests me. Pros and cons folks? Like salary and job outlook (Is there a need for podiatrists? unlike chiropracters for example)? Different specializations? Difficulty of admissions? Can DAT be substituted (really dont feel like taking MCAT and DAT)? And any other basic pros and cons? Thanx everyone!

DPMs make a good living. As a DPM though, you are basically already specialized in care for the foot. However, if you want to get even more specific, you could be a foot and ankle surgeon that deals primarily with the diabetic foot or with pediatric cases. Admissions is not too bad. A GPA above 3.0 is competitive enough. Some schools will take the GRE instead of the MCAT. Not sure about DAT. I do feel that there is definitely a need for podiatrists and that the demand for them will continue to grow. I would say that cons to the profession include restrictions on what you can treat (i.e. you may know how to treat a skin infection on the knee but in some states this exceeds the scope of practice allowed), insurance problems (some insurance companies don't want to pay for a foot problem that can be treated by a PCP instead of a DPM), and you have to rely mostly on referrals for patients. Pros include the fact that the job is basically a 9 to 5 (in other words, you won't have to worry about being on call with your practice and you can have a life outside of work) and you are already specialized (you don't have to worry about rotations, etc). Good luck! :)
 
truckibear said:
insurance problems (some insurance companies don't want to pay for a foot problem that can be treated by a PCP instead of a DPM

I have never heard of or seen this. I didn't think PCP's new how to tx any foot problems! :laugh: Seriously though, do you have an example of one such instance? And for that matter, what doctor, besides FP and ER, doesn't depend on referrals?
 
jonwill said:
I have never heard of or seen this. I didn't think PCP's new how to tx any foot problems! :laugh: Seriously though, do you have an example of one such instance?

I have never heard of this either.
 
jonwill said:
I have never heard of or seen this. I didn't think PCP's new how to tx any foot problems! :laugh: Seriously though, do you have an example of one such instance? And for that matter, what doctor, besides FP and ER, doesn't depend on referrals?

PCPs prescribe lamisil for foot fungus all the time. And yes, you're correct about FP and ER doctors not having to depend on referrals but DPMs are usually in private practices and have to work through word of mouth or introducing themselves to local practitioners, whereas it seems to me that doctors with hospital affiliations would just refer the patient to a specialist within the hospital group/network. Is any of this incorrect?? It seemed to me that there was a bit of stress on networking to establish one's practice during my time in podiatry school.

Edit: Much of this information was handed to me from a DPM I spoke to.
 
truckibear said:
it seems to me that doctors with hospital affiliations would just refer the patient to a specialist within the hospital group/network.

It is true that doctors with hospital affiliations refer the patient to a specialist within the hospital group/network but that is usually a podiatric physician! After residency, most docs these days go to multispecialty groups, ortho groups, hospitals, or existing private practice. So, a referral system is usually already in place.
If you were to start up a private practice from scratch, you are correct though. That would be A LOT of work. There is a guy in my class that wants to do that. I think he is nuts!
 
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jonwill said:
It is true that doctors with hospital affiliations refer the patient to a specialist within the hospital group/network but that is usually a podiatric physician! After residency, most docs these days go to multispecialty groups, ortho groups, hospitals, or existing private practice. So, a referral system is usually already in place.
If you were to start up a private practice from scratch, you are correct though. That would be A LOT of work. There is a guy in my class that wants to do that. I think he is nuts!

The 6 foot 10 inch Texan?
 
truckibear said:
I would say that cons to the profession include restrictions on what you can treat (i.e. you may know how to treat a skin infection on the knee but in some states this exceeds the scope of practice allowed), insurance problems (some insurance companies don't want to pay for a foot problem that can be treated by a PCP instead of a DPM), and you have to rely mostly on referrals for patients.

You are correct in that some insurance companies will not pay Podiatrist if the foot problem can be treated by a PCP. This usually applies to routine foot care. If a patient comes to a Podiatrist for routine foot care and they don't meet the insurance guidelines to have the insurance cover the routine foot care by a podiatrist, the patient must either pay for the entire visit out of pocket or go back to their PCP to have the routine foot care rendered, which would be covered by the insurance in that situation.

There are many PCP who do treat minor foot problems, such as tinea pedis, etc.. However, PCP will usually refer the patient to a Podiatrist if the case is more complicated or they are not having any success in treating the minor foot problem.
 
dpmgrad said:
You are correct in that some insurance companies will not pay Podiatrist if the foot problem can be treated by a PCP. This usually applies to routine foot care. If a patient comes to a Podiatrist for routine foot care and they don't meet the insurance guidelines to have the insurance cover the routine foot care by a podiatrist, the patient must either pay for the entire visit out of pocket or go back to their PCP to have the routine foot care rendered, which would be covered by the insurance in that situation.

There are many PCP who do treat minor foot problems, such as tinea pedis, etc.. However, PCP will usually refer the patient to a Podiatrist if the case is more complicated or they are not having any success in treating the minor foot problem.

How does the Podiatrist get payed by the insurance company if the minor foot problem is not having any success being treated by the PCP? What about more complex problems?

What does classify as insurance payable and is it comparable to other physicians/specialists?

Thanks.

Cons are good to know but how about some Pros to the profession compared to other specialties or Primary Care. :D
Hours/Lifestyle?
Tuition Debt is lower?
$$$?
Variety of Medicine involved in Podiatry?
 
hey i got into TEMPLE with DAT scores.
come check out the campus and school...fun city, nice atmostphere....
hit me up if you have any questions.

jman
 
doclm said:
How does the Podiatrist get payed by the insurance company if the minor foot problem is not having any success being treated by the PCP? What about more complex problems?

What does classify as insurance payable and is it comparable to other physicians/specialists?

Thanks.

Cons are good to know but how about some Pros to the profession compared to other specialties or Primary Care. :D
Hours/Lifestyle?
Tuition Debt is lower?
$$$?
Variety of Medicine involved in Podiatry?

Podiatrists are not the only one that can treat minor foot problems such as tinea pedis, ingrown toenails, onychomycosis. I know several Family Practice physicians doing partial nail avulsions in the office. Hence, PCP can bill for these minor foot problems like the podiatrists can. However, majority of the PCP do not want to deal with these foot issues and just refer them to the Podiatrist. Most of the PCP will send all of the complex foot issues to Podiatrist or Orthopedic Foot and Ankle Surgeon.

As for the Podiatrists getting paid for minor foot problems that a PCP is not successful in treating, Podiatrists do get paid. For example, a PCP may prescribe Lamisil to a patient that the PCP believes to have onychomycosis. After the standard 3 month treatment with Lamisil daily and noticed no improvement, the PCP sends the patient to a Podiatrist. The Podiatrist may take a look at it and determines that the etiology of the toenail problem is due to Psoriasis. Hence, Lamisil would not be the treatment choice. The Podiatrist would then bill for the visit with the diagnosis of Psoriasis and get paid for the visit.

In regards to Podiatrists not getting paid for routine foot care, Medicare has strict guidelines as to what criteria a patient must meet in order to have the routine foot care covered. Routine foot care is covered by most insurance companies in the initial office visit with the podiatrist. However, for subsequent routine foot care visits, the patient must meet the Medicare guidelines in order for Medicare to pay for that visit. If they do not meet the criteria, the patient must pay out of pocket for the routine foot care visit since Medicare won't pay for it. When a patient does meet Medicare guidelines for routine foot care every 9 weeks approximately, the Podiatrist usually bills the routine foot care visit under the diagnosis Diabetes with Peripheral Neuropathy and PVD. If the patient did not have Diabetes, there would be no other diagnosis code that a Podiatrist can bill the routine foot care visit under (the only exception may be onychocryptosis or paronychia). Medicare will not reimburse for routine foot care under the diagnosis of onychomycosis by itself. One can be creative in trying to bill the non covered routine foot care visit under the diagnosis of pain in limb. On the other hand, if a PCP were to render routine foot care (whether or not patient meet Medicare guidelines), the visit would probably be covered because PCP can bill the patient for other medical issues as part of the E&M code and include the routine foot care as part of the visit. However, very few PCP perform routine foot care. For example, in a situation where a patient does not meet Medicare guidelines for routine foot care, the PCP can still get paid for the routine foot care by billing the insurance for follow up evaluation of hypertension. While the PCP renders the foot care, the PCP also check the patient's blood pressure to see if the hypertensive medications are working or not. Hence, the PCP can still get paid for the visit. Hopefully, this will explain why sometimes a PCP can still get paid for the routine foot care, whether the patient meets the insurance guidelines or not.
 
dpmjeff77 said:
hey i got into TEMPLE with DAT scores.
come check out the campus and school...fun city, nice atmostphere....
hit me up if you have any questions.

jman

How are things at TUSPM these days? I am assuming that you are almost done with LEA. Second year should be fun, especially with Dr. Schoenhaus in Pathomechanics.
 
The early decision on your path would be the hardest for me, because you really commit yourself early to a specific area. I went from thinking I would do FP to ER to Anesthesia to finally Ortho.
 
dawg44 said:
The early decision on your path would be the hardest for me, because you really commit yourself early to a specific area. I went from thinking I would do FP to ER to Anesthesia to finally Ortho.

You are 100% correct. That's why it is extremely important to put in some good quality time shadowing a podiatric physician. I've seen too many people get a year or two in and decide it isn't for them. And while I agree that it is better to cut your losses than to do something you don't like for the rest of your life, you lose a lot of money and time. I have seen a 4th year walk away!
 
What can make you dislike it though as a fourth year? I think that some people just have issues lol
 
dpmgrad said:
In regards to Podiatrists not getting paid for routine foot care, Medicare has strict guidelines as to what criteria a patient must meet in order to have the routine foot care covered. Routine foot care is covered by most insurance companies in the initial office visit with the podiatrist. However, for subsequent routine foot care visits, the patient must meet the Medicare guidelines in order for Medicare to pay for that visit. If they do not meet the criteria, the patient must pay out of pocket for the routine foot care visit since Medicare won't pay for it. When a patient does meet Medicare guidelines for routine foot care every 9 weeks approximately, the Podiatrist usually bills the routine foot care visit under the diagnosis Diabetes with Peripheral Neuropathy and PVD. If the patient did not have Diabetes, there would be no other diagnosis code that a Podiatrist can bill the routine foot care visit under (the only exception may be onychocryptosis or paronychia). Medicare will not reimburse for routine foot care under the diagnosis of onychomycosis by itself. One can be creative in trying to bill the non covered routine foot care visit under the diagnosis of pain in limb. On the other hand, if a PCP were to render routine foot care (whether or not patient meet Medicare guidelines), the visit would probably be covered because PCP can bill the patient for other medical issues as part of the E&M code and include the routine foot care as part of the visit. However, very few PCP perform routine foot care. For example, in a situation where a patient does not meet Medicare guidelines for routine foot care, the PCP can still get paid for the routine foot care by billing the insurance for follow up evaluation of hypertension. While the PCP renders the foot care, the PCP also check the patient's blood pressure to see if the hypertensive medications are working or not. Hence, the PCP can still get paid for the visit. Hopefully, this will explain why sometimes a PCP can still get paid for the routine foot care, whether the patient meets the insurance guidelines or not.


If the DPM sees the patient mentioned above that the PCP billed for HTN to do the routine nail care if the DPM regularly takes BPs, couldn't the DPM then bill for a visit based on the BP taken. Let's say it was abnormal so the DPM refers back or originally to a PCP or cariologist, or if the BP is normal mark it in the chart and bill for a visit. and most patients come to the pod because of pain in the foot anyway - so isn't that always a valid diagnosis along with hammertoe or HAV?
 
krabmas said:
If the DPM sees the patient mentioned above that the PCP billed for HTN to do the routine nail care if the DPM regularly takes BPs, couldn't the DPM then bill for a visit based on the BP taken. Let's say it was abnormal so the DPM refers back or originally to a PCP or cariologist, or if the BP is normal mark it in the chart and bill for a visit. and most patients come to the pod because of pain in the foot anyway - so isn't that always a valid diagnosis along with hammertoe or HAV?

Perhaps, my attempt to explain the billing for routine foot care was somewhat confusing. If the patient did not meet the insurance criteria for the routine foot care to be covered, the PCP or Podiatrist would know that he/she would not get paid for that visit. Hence, with the Podiatrist, the patient would have to pay out of pocket for the visit. On the other hand, PCP would focus the visit on something like follow up evaluation of hypertension and bill for that and would throw in the routine foot care (if the PCP does it) for free. Yes, a Podiatrist can take blood pressure reading in the office but we can not bill an Evaluation and Management code for Hypertension, since management of hypertension would be out of our scope of practice. However, you can put the diagnosis of Hypertension on billing slip but it can not be link to the E&M code.

As for billing an E&M code for hammertoe or HAV diagnosis to cover the routine foot care visit every 9 weeks would cause an insurance red flag in the long run. The reason is that the insurance would wonder why you need to follow up on the bunion deformity or hammertoe deformity every 9 weeks for x amount of years. If the patient met the insurance criterias for routine foot care services, that patient is usually a diabetic with previous amputation or a diabetic with PVD and Peripheral Neuropathy. In that case, billing the routine foot care visit for follow up evaluation of a diabetic with previous amputation or diabetic with PVD and Peripheral Neuropathy every 9 weeks would make sense since those diabetics need to be monitored closely.

Hopefully, this might clear up some of the confusion. Billing for routine foot care can be complicated at times and sadly, there are some podiatrists who do creative billing to get routine foot care covered.
 
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