"Provider"

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Psai said:
Do the administrators have to wear color coded suits? I don't understand how this is acceptable
Click to expand...
We had color-coded scrubs. It's actually not a bad idea, as patients had an idea of who was seeing them at any given time. Physicians were the only ones with red badges- NPs and PAs got the standard blue, so you knew when you were talking to a physician instead of a midlevel. Plus there's the stitched-on name that says DO, MD, PA, or NP.
 
chipwhitley said:
From what I've seen, I believe that many, if not most, doctors nowadays are already in the same category as all those other professions you have mentioned since they are increasingly not autonomous and are replaceable cogs in a huge healthcare machine run by business people. Does that seem accurate to you?
Click to expand...

Yes. It does. At my place of work I am repeatedly locking horns with business-types who feel they can dictate my practice terms because they sign the checks. Over my dead body.

The physician is no longer the leader. The physician is a cog.

You know why derm's so attractive? It's because they might be the only docs that can get away from hospital business BS and actually practice medicine on their own professional terms.
 
Over9000 said:
Yes. It does. At my place of work I am repeatedly locking horns with business-types who feel they can dictate my practice terms because they sign the checks. Over my dead body.

The physician is no longer the leader. The physician is a cog.

You know why derm's so attractive? It's because they might be the only docs that can get away from hospital business BS and actually practice medicine on their own professional terms.
Click to expand...
Derm isn't unique. A&I, psych, and pain are great examples of areas where one can build an independent practice sans bull**** in the right areas.
 
The term provider has been invented to fool patients into thinking they are seeing a doctor. Most people don't understand the difference. Some don't care. And administrators earn money by paying less to these providers. And these "providers" are ecstatic because they get to play doctors without going to medical school. And what can the "real doctors" do about it?

Nothing. Except flame SDN
 
Had to bump this because of recent JAMA article: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2506307

Eliminating the Term Primary Care “Provider”
Consequences of Language for the Future of Primary Care

Allan H. Goroll, MD
Division of General Internal Medicine
Massachusetts General Hospital
Harvard Medical School
15 Parkman St, Ste 645
Boston, MA 02114

From the patient’s perspective, getting to the right primary care team member becomes problematic if all practitioners are indistinguishably designated as “providers,” which implies they are interchangeable. The term obscures their differences in depth and breadth of training, knowledge, and clinical experience as well as the particular and often unique contributions they make to a team-based effort.
 
Last edited:
Mad Jack said:
I mean, honestly it does make a lot of sense. A lot of the time in our hospital we'd have patients that were under the care of podiatry (we had a lot of podiatry admits), dentistry (for surgical procedures), nurse practitioners, or physician assistants (the latter two in the ED) as their primary. Provider actually just makes sense, as many people simply didn't have a licensed physician as the person primarily providing and directing their care.
Click to expand...

No it does not! We are not "providing" anything. We are selling our expertise. We are professionals, not "providers." My god, prostitutes are called providers!!!
 
Ismet said:
See, I don't see those things as completely separate entities. If you're going to go with beneficence and non-maleficence, you also have to include patient autonomy and justice. A physician's role is to use his education and training to provide care that is in the patient's best interest, but the patient has a say in the matter too. And sometimes that say is not in their best interest. I'm willing to bet that most patients would like a physician who speaks WITH them rather than AT them, which is the crux of patient-centered care, including the patient in the decision making while providing them with your expertise in evidence-based medicine.
Click to expand...

LOL you have regurgitated "patient-centered care" and "evidence-based medicine" in the same sentence, just as you have been programmed to do through years of brainwashing. Congrats, you are a cog in the machine of mediocrity.
 
WingedOx said:
Actually, with THIS, I strongly agree with you, but that's more often than not an issue of the professionalism of individual providers rather than a systemic issue. One should ALWAYS introduce themselves with their full role to patients. Anything else is a violation of patient autonomy. The problem is this behavior is a hard thing to enforce.

/yes, I REALLY hate the term "student doctor"
Click to expand...
I say medical student to patients...don't like "student Doctor" either
 
Ligament said:
LOL you have regurgitated "patient-centered care" and "evidence-based medicine" in the same sentence, just as you have been programmed to do through years of brainwashing. Congrats, you are a cog in the machine of mediocrity.
Click to expand...

I find this post a bit confusing. Why would pursing evidence based medicine and patient centered care make you a cog in the machine of mediocrity?
 
sliceofbread136 said:
I find this post a bit confusing. Why would pursing evidence based medicine and patient centered care make you a cog in the machine of mediocrity?
Click to expand...

Because those are jargon terms promoted by nonphysicians. Evidence based medicine is a guide for when you are not sure about the best course of action, nothing more. It is not a protocol to be followed blindly or a replacement for critical thinking. There are many times when someone puts something down on paper and it gets published, changing practice without clear benefit. Look at what's happening to sepsis. We're at a point where pouring 2 L into a patient with a temp and high pulse is practically the default because that's what cms pays for. And yet papers are now coming out, arguing against the goal directed therapy by rivers.

Patient centered care has also been bastardized. Nonphysicians use it to mean "get our satisfaction scores up so we can get paid". So physicians are now responsible for getting ekgs done quickly, seeing patients within 15 minutes of presenting to ed, providing sandwiches for the family. Why? What it actually should be is the physician talking to the patient about their goals to see how we can help them best. If they have cancer, we should tell them about the risks as well as the benefits of radiation and chemotherapy. Is it worth it to trade a few weeks of recovery today for a small chance of a few extra tomorrows? Maybe they just want to see their daughter graduate from college next month before they go. A lot of times, physicians provide a large quantity of possible treatment choices which overwhelms a patient who is already ill equipped to make decisions due to low education level, fogginess from sickness, etc. They also don't always provide the opportunity to forgo active treatment and allow for hospice for terminally ill patients who end up suffering for weeks in the ICU. Of course, this requires a lot of time and effort which you aren't allowed to have because diminishing reimbursement by those who call you a provider force you to have 30 patients on your census or clinic schedule.

Patients are not a one size fits all box. And yet outside pressure from lawyers, administrators and bureaucrats are forcing us into regimented treatment plans that do not take individual patients into account. It's taking the thinking and the fun out of medicine. "Hm I wonder if this is cardiogenic or neurogenic shock", nope, no thinking allowed just pour in the saline.
 
Psai said:
Because those are jargon terms promoted by nonphysicians. Evidence based medicine is a guide for when you are not sure about the best course of action, nothing more. It is not a protocol to be followed blindly or a replacement for critical thinking. There are many times when someone puts something down on paper and it gets published, changing practice without clear benefit. Look at what's happening to sepsis. We're at a point where pouring 2 L into a patient with a temp and high pulse is practically the default because that's what cms pays for. And yet papers are now coming out, arguing against the goal directed therapy by rivers.

Patient centered care has also been bastardized. Nonphysicians use it to mean "get our satisfaction scores up so we can get paid". So physicians are now responsible for getting ekgs done quickly, seeing patients within 15 minutes of presenting to ed, providing sandwiches for the family. Why? What it actually should be is the physician talking to the patient about their goals to see how we can help them best. If they have cancer, we should tell them about the risks as well as the benefits of radiation and chemotherapy. Is it worth it to trade a few weeks of recovery today for a small chance of a few extra tomorrows? Maybe they just want to see their daughter graduate from college next month before they go. A lot of times, physicians provide a large quantity of possible treatment choices which overwhelms a patient who is already ill equipped to make decisions due to low education level, fogginess from sickness, etc. They also don't always provide the opportunity to forgo active treatment and allow for hospice for terminally ill patients who end up suffering for weeks in the ICU. Of course, this requires a lot of time and effort which you aren't allowed to have because diminishing reimbursement by those who call you a provider force you to have 30 patients on your census or clinic schedule.

Patients are not a one size fits all box. And yet outside pressure from lawyers, administrators and bureaucrats are forcing us into regimented treatment plans that do not take individual patients into account. It's taking the thinking and the fun out of medicine. "Hm I wonder if this is cardiogenic or neurogenic shock", nope, no thinking allowed just pour in the saline.
Click to expand...
That's what happens when we let business types and politicians take over medicine.
 
cbrons said:
I say M.D. student, because there are so many "medical students" (nursing students from 20 different schools with long white coats) that it confuses people.
Click to expand...
I do laugh at people from other programs who call themselves medical students...nope...you aren't
 
sb247 said:
you haven't met some of the students I have
Click to expand...

??? The only medical students are those that go to medical school. There are a few "medical assistant" students. Nursing students are nursing students. They shouldn't be calling themselves medical students ever.
 
Psai said:
??? The only medical students are those that go to medical school. There are a few "medical assistant" students. Nursing students are nursing students. They shouldn't be calling themselves medical students ever.
Click to expand...
People don't ask me for permission. I just don't pretend it's real
 
Psai said:
Where do you go to school? No one here does that
Click to expand...
these aren't people at my school... people I know from back home

Although I do know people at my school who say PA programs are like doing all of med school in 2yrs....so I guess my location isn't immune haha
 
sb247 said:
these aren't people at my school... people I know from back home

Although I do know people at my school who say PA programs are like doing all of med school in 2yrs....so I guess my location isn't immune haha
Click to expand...

Well insecure people saying that they are just as good as us and work harder than we do have been around forever. That's way different from calling yourself a medical student when you're not, although I guess that's the natural progression from non doctors claiming they have "doctorates"
 
I will stand up for the term student doctor

it goes with what I say is the no-no to actual docs letting patients call you my your first name

if it will inspire confidence and make the patient feel more comfortable with your presence and help you gain educational experience - there's not reason to pull a punch here. Suck up your pride and imposter syndrome. Use the most professional title you can.

Made a huge difference the days we had to do anything pelvic on either gender - women about to have an abortion might say yes to student doctor involvement and no to medical students.

I always called my med students student doctors in front of the patients. I hope it rattled them a little.
 
Crayola227 said:
I will stand up for the term student doctor

it goes with what I say is the no-no to actual docs letting patients call you my your first name

if it will inspire confidence and make the patient feel more comfortable with your presence and help you gain educational experience - there's not reason to pull a punch here. Suck up your pride and imposter syndrome. Use the most professional title you can.

Made a huge difference the days we had to do anything pelvic on either gender - women about to have an abortion might say yes to student doctor involvement and no to medical students.

I always called my med students student doctors in front of the patients. I hope it rattled them a little.
Click to expand...
at the risk of being contrary, if that patient would say no to a "medical student" then the medical student shouldn't be there
 
sb247 said:
these aren't people at my school... people I know from back home

Although I do know people at my school who say PA programs are like doing all of med school in 2yrs....so I guess my location isn't immune haha
Click to expand...
I hear that all the time from both NP/PA... Tired of that [insert]!
 
Crayola227 said:
I will stand up for the term student doctor

it goes with what I say is the no-no to actual docs letting patients call you my your first name

if it will inspire confidence and make the patient feel more comfortable with your presence and help you gain educational experience - there's not reason to pull a punch here. Suck up your pride and imposter syndrome. Use the most professional title you can.

Made a huge difference the days we had to do anything pelvic on either gender - women about to have an abortion might say yes to student doctor involvement and no to medical students.

I always called my med students student doctors in front of the patients. I hope it rattled them a little.
Click to expand...


I call medical students pledges and interns NIBs (newly initiated brothers).
 
W19 said:
I hear that all the time from both NP/PA... Tired of that [insert]!
Click to expand...

Hahahaha. At least PA goes by the medical model, NP schooling doesn't even come close to resembling medical school. PA school is like a third of med school done in half the time. There's a lot they don't learn because that's how they are trained but they do generally cover the most important things. I don't know if np school covers anything; they're so freaking clueless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: W19
Psai said:
Hahahaha. At least PA goes by the medical model, NP schooling doesn't even come close to resembling medical school. PA school is like a third of med school done in half the time. There's a lot they don't learn because that's how they are trained but they do generally cover the most important things. I don't know if np school covers anything; they're so freaking clueless.
Click to expand...
This post reminds me how much I miss the med forum... Stupid step 1 🙁... Not attending class and taking an exam every 2 weeks was more fun than this ****.
 
Vets may have to settle for a visit with the nurse at the VA
The Veterans Administration is proposing a federal rule change that would allow highly trained nurses to act as doctors; Doug McKelway takes a closer look at the proposal for 'Special Report'

"Many Nurse Practitioners have Many Years in Health Care Long Before They Become Nurse Practitioners and We Bring That To The Table."
 
  • Like
Reactions: W19
cbrons said:
Vets may have to settle for a visit with the nurse at the VA
The Veterans Administration is proposing a federal rule change that would allow highly trained nurses to act as doctors; Doug McKelway takes a closer look at the proposal for 'Special Report'

"Many Nurse Practitioners have Many Years in Health Care Long Before They Become Nurse Practitioners and We Bring That To The Table."
Click to expand...
Yep, and flight attendants have many years of experience in airplanes - should we make them pilots?
 
Psai said:
Well insecure people saying that they are just as good as us and work harder than we do have been around forever. That's way different from calling yourself a medical student when you're not, although I guess that's the natural progression from non doctors claiming they have "doctorates"
Click to expand...
well, many of our advanced practice nursing and PA students technically are in "medical school", since in our case the medical school hands out all their degrees.
 
chipwhitley said:
well, many of our advanced practice nursing and PA students technically are in "medical school", since in our case the medical school hands out all their degrees.
Click to expand...

Our undergrads are in "medical school" too since they take classes in the medical school classrooms. We're all equal here
 
Ismet said:
Agree with @Mad Jack. It makes sense. This is more a matter of making things less confusing (i.e. if it's an NP's patient, the NP is the provider, but the NP is not the attending physician) than a matter of a slippery slope towards mid-levels "taking over." Don't be so bitter and quick to belittle the IT people, I guarantee you that it wasn't their decision to make.
Click to expand...

I'm curious as to why you said this, as I was imagining just the opposite... (which of course doesn't mean this hunch is true) But having worked within IT at a Fortune 500, I can easily picture a scenario where IT (let's understand this as EPIC coding staff) pushes back against physician-management on their designators within the database, saying something like.. "It would be too difficult to code an option for Physician AND NonPhys., we just need to use one clear sounding data field" ... Hmmm.....
 
omn said:
I'm curious as to why you said this, as I was imagining just the opposite... (which of course doesn't mean this hunch is true) But having worked within IT at a Fortune 500, I can easily picture a scenario where IT (let's understand this as EPIC coding staff) pushes back against physician-management on their designators within the database, saying something like.. "It would be too difficult to code an option for Physician AND NonPhys., we just need to use one clear sounding data field" ... Hmmm.....
Click to expand...

So separating out icd codes like this is easy
nwgAITe.png


But having 3 different categories of clinicians is hard?
Oh okay.
 
Psai said:
So separating out icd codes like this is easy
nwgAITe.png


But having 3 different categories of clinicians is hard?
Oh okay.
Click to expand...


It won't change itself through your autocorrect...

Sent from my SM-N900V using SDN mobile
 
omn said:
I'm curious as to why you said this, as I was imagining just the opposite... (which of course doesn't mean this hunch is true) But having worked within IT at a Fortune 500, I can easily picture a scenario where IT (let's understand this as EPIC coding staff) pushes back against physician-management on their designators within the database, saying something like.. "It would be too difficult to code an option for Physician AND NonPhys., we just need to use one clear sounding data field" ... Hmmm.....
Click to expand...
Kind of doubt it. It is actually quite easy to change things like this.
 
I swear I go on facebook and see someone post "Med school is so hard" all the time.

I go oh wow haven't seen you in years pretty cool we're both in med school.

*clicks page*

"__ community college studying nursing assistant"
 
Psai said:
So separating out icd codes like this is easy
nwgAITe.png


But having 3 different categories of clinicians is hard?
Oh okay.
Click to expand...
"Burn due to WATER SKIS on fire" is easily the most ridiculous scenario I have ever imagined. Water skis should also not be classified as "watercraft".
 
sb247 said:
I do laugh at people from other programs who call themselves medical students...nope...you aren't
Click to expand...
One of the allied health "schools" (i.e. store front) had a huge sign that said, "Medical School" on their building. I always wanted to walk in and ask if I could sign up for their physician program. Sadly they went out of business before I could.
 
chipwhitley said:
well, many of our advanced practice nursing and PA students technically are in "medical school", since in our case the medical school hands out all their degrees.
Click to expand...


I did my SMP at Tufts and the SMP is a program under the medical school. However if anyone ever asked me where I went to school, I didn't say, "Tuft's School of Medicine," even if it was technically correct.

/best type of correct
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Do community surgery programs provide better training?
Replies
9
Views
2K
Dunkthetall
D
S
It's time to stop calling physician 'provider'.
2 3 4
Replies
155
Views
10K
El-Rami
El-Rami
0
Learned my lesson about providing family members with "medical opinion"
Replies
16
Views
2K
AlbinoHawk DO
AlbinoHawk DO
I
Petition for IMG to practice as Midlevel Providers
Replies
47
Views
4K
ace_inhibitor111
A
F
UAB Diagnostic Equipment Purchases - am I tested on "student" models provided by UAB or what I purchase for myself?
Replies
5
Views
716
FutureOrtho2024
F
Top