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berkaderk

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  1. Pre-Medical
Hi everyone, so I've recently decided orthopedics is not for me after thinking it was for most my life, and I have been trying to figure out what to pivot to. Psychiatry is honestly at the top of my list so far. I am passionate about the subject and patients, it was a rotation I really enjoyed, ofc the lifestyle is good. My only question is what is the true earning potential? I see most positions pay around 300-350k, but I was curious if there are ways to scale up salary, such as private practice, Telehealth, and side gigs such as medical director roles or starting and owning interventional clinics such as TMS. I definitely have a desire to engage in the business side of medicine. I was curious if this is feasible, what salaries you have seen for higher earners and what they do to achieve it?

If there is a realistic path to 500k income 5-10 years into a career, I think I would have found the ideal trifecta of passion lifestyle and income, at least for me
 
For a business-minded person $500k is doable, but requires either straying from the beaten path or a lot of hard work (or both). For example, running a clinic with employees, doing high-end cash practice, locums, or working 1.5-2 full time equivalent worth of hours via moonlighting or multiple jobs.

I think 300-350k with a very good lifestyle is common. At higher incomes you may have more tradeoffs, but it's still rare to see any psychiatrist working like a surgeon.
 
I think 500k is hard to get without at least short term sacrifice in terms of time investment, risk, etc. You can definitely do this in private practice, but it will take you time to set something up that can do this long term without you working your tail off. Psychiatry can easily make 500k working a surgeon's hours in a quicker time frame, but that's not usually the goal in psychiatry.

350-400K without working too hard is certainly doable even within a year or two of residency. With some business savviness and willingness to work 45-50 hours a week -- it can happen tomorrow and get you closer to low 400s. You can even do this without having to take call. Just need to think outside the box a little bit and not just sign on the dotted line with a random big box employer.

Keep in mind that the median in psych is still around 305-330 or so total comp when all is said and done. This is usually a 35-40 hour outpatient gig without any bells and whistles, pretty low pressure, and no call at a big box employed position. Regional and local variance plays a factor. Anything you do to deviate from this can potentially earn you more money - but may come with more stress or require more ingenuity (or chutzpah).
 
In ortho, one of the primary ways to reach a high income was to get a salaried position (with bonuses) with a group that had established referrals and staff set-up to maximize your procedures. Doing this yourself would likely result in much reduced income for quite some time and maybe forever if not very successful. Business skills are less relevant as pumping out procedures.

In psychiatry, most salaried jobs are $250-350K with limited upside. If you want to earn more, building it yourself is important. $500K 10 years into your career is not going to just happen.

I’m roughly 10 years out. About half of my graduating class is earning the national average with no desire to make changes. Half is earning over $500K by combining multiple PT jobs together or building a practice that works for them.
 
In ortho, one of the primary ways to reach a high income was to get a salaried position (with bonuses) with a group that had established referrals and staff set-up to maximize your procedures. Doing this yourself would likely result in much reduced income for quite some time and maybe forever if not very successful. Business skills are less relevant as pumping out procedures.

In psychiatry, most salaried jobs are $250-350K with limited upside. If you want to earn more, building it yourself is important. $500K 10 years into your career is not going to just happen.

I’m roughly 10 years out. About half of my graduating class is earning the national average with no desire to make changes. Half is earning over $500K by combining multiple PT jobs together or building a practice that works for them.
Work like Ortho and you can easily pass 1000k easy.
 
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I definitely have a desire to engage in the business side of medicine. I was curious if this is feasible, what salaries you have seen for higher earners and what they do to achieve it?

If there is a realistic path to 500k income 5-10 years into a career, I think I would have found the ideal trifecta of passion lifestyle and income, at least for me
This would mostly lockout engaging in the business side of medicine as a primary role, but if you are OK with working in a prison in CA, you can make close to that with a good lifestyle straight out of residency (probably even higher after unlisted bonuses). So in your trifecta that covers lifestyle and income, so passion is up to you, and yes corrections work is definitely not for everyone.


Staff Psychiatrist – Onsite Inpatient Unit
$485,712 (Board Certified)
$471,924 (Board Eligible)

Most jobs are 4 days a week. A lot of people do private practice on the off day so you can still fill that business itch.
 
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This would mostly lockout engaging in the business side of medicine as a primary role, but if you are OK with working in a prison in CA, you can make close to that with a good lifestyle straight out of residency (probably even higher after unlisted bonuses). So in your trifecta that covers lifestyle and income, so passion is up to you, and yes corrections work is definitely not for everyone.


Staff Psychiatrist – Onsite Inpatient Unit
$485,712 (Board Certified)
$471,924 (Board Eligible)

Most jobs are 4 days a week. A lot of people do private practice on the off day so you can still fill that business itch.

Not sure but 350k in the midwest is probably better when u consider housing and tax.
 
Yeah, it's going to need to be prison (on-site, no telehealth) in CA to get to $500k salaried to keep anything resembling a lifestyle. Fortunately, most prisons aren't near a high COLA for CA. A couple are, but most are in the very lowest COLA and least desirable areas of the state.
 
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Yeah, it's going to need to be prison (on-site, no telehealth) in CA to get to $500k salaried to keep anything resembling a lifestyle. Fortunately, most prisons aren't near a high COLA for CA. A couple are, but most are in the very lowest COLA and least desirable areas of the state.

I love these threads talking about how much i love psych but only if i can make 500k. looking at salaries outside of the median/mean is not a wise choice imo for any field.
 
If there is a realistic path to 500k income 5-10 years into a career, I think I would have found the ideal trifecta of passion lifestyle and income, at least for me

Here's a realistic path to 500k income right after residency

Step 1: get a full time job, 35 hours per week, $350k per year
Step 2: get a part time job, 15 hours per week, $150k per year

This is not rocket science.

But if your real question is whether you can work <10 hours per week and make $500k+ then psychiatry is probably not a good fit for you. We don't need more David Brody-types.
 
Here's a realistic path to 500k income right after residency

Step 1: get a full time job, 35 hours per week, $350k per year
Step 2: get a part time job, 15 hours per week, $150k per year

This is not rocket science.

But if your real question is whether you can work <10 hours per week and make $500k+ then psychiatry is probably not a good fit for you. We don't need more David Brody-types.

Another realistic path is in private practice.

Insurance reimburses about $200-250 for a 99214+90833. Let's say half are 99214 alone and half are 90833.

[$125/half hour (99214 alone) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day + $250/half hour (99214+90833) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day] * 5 days a week * 48 weeks a year (4 weeks of unpaid vacation) = $720,000 gross revenue annually for 40 hours of clinical work. If you do 30 hours then that breaks $500k already.

This doesn't account for admin time though which there is a steep learning curve for private practice. However, if you were able to get through medical school, you can learn the ins and outs of private practice which is considered business-lite.

In my area, some insurances pay more than that per half hour. Also, $250/half hour med visit seems well within the range of the going rate for a psychiatrist. My rates are much higher than that but I'm also living and providing services in a VHCOL area.
 
Another realistic path is in private practice.

Insurance reimburses about $200-250 for a 99214+90833. Let's say half are 99214 alone and half are 90833.

[$125/half hour (99214 alone) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day + $250/half hour (99214+90833) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day] * 5 days a week * 48 weeks a year (4 weeks of unpaid vacation) = $720,000 gross revenue annually for 40 hours of clinical work. If you do 30 hours then that breaks $500k already.

This doesn't account for admin time though which there is a steep learning curve for private practice. However, if you were able to get through medical school, you can learn the ins and outs of private practice which is considered business-lite.

In my area, some insurances pay more than that per half hour. Also, $250/half hour med visit seems well within the range of the going rate for a psychiatrist. My rates are much higher than that but I'm also living and providing services in a VHCOL area.

My friends In medium and low cost are on the lower end 150-200. They did the fantasy math like above and found that in the end there gross numbers were at least 15-20% less esp when you combine holidays, no shows, denials, non payment and sometimes slower months as you won't be 100% filled always. Even with slim margins lets just say you have 30% overhead thats pretty optimistic when you account for billing, rent, utilities, staff etc.

Reality is if one did work 48 weeks and got the rates you said cut 15% off that 720k then another 30% off that number and your at 430k pre tax which still needs to be taxed by uncle sam/state/local/medicare/ss/ etc.

Also as you get older you probably want more than 4 weeks of vaca. I took double that last year and keeping that now.
 
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Another realistic path is in private practice.

Insurance reimburses about $200-250 for a 99214+90833. Let's say half are 99214 alone and half are 90833.

[$125/half hour (99214 alone) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day + $250/half hour (99214+90833) * 2 visits an hour * 4 hours a day] * 5 days a week * 48 weeks a year (4 weeks of unpaid vacation) = $720,000 gross revenue annually for 40 hours of clinical work. If you do 30 hours then that breaks $500k already.

This doesn't account for admin time though which there is a steep learning curve for private practice. However, if you were able to get through medical school, you can learn the ins and outs of private practice which is considered business-lite.

In my area, some insurances pay more than that per half hour. Also, $250/half hour med visit seems well within the range of the going rate for a psychiatrist. My rates are much higher than that but I'm also living and providing services in a VHCOL area.
200-250 for that combination is on the high range for most of the US. Alma/Headway can get you around the lower end of that. A solo practitioner directly contracting with insurance in most parts of the country would be thrilled to get 150-200 for a 99214+90833. Also, therapy add on codes are never that close to E/M codes. My rates were about 110 for a 99214 and 40 for a 90833. Insurance heavily incentivizes the 15 minute follow up visit model.
 
I think running those fantasy numbers is a worthwhile exercise too, but you have to take them with a huge grain of salt.

Those numbers assume that you see 100% follow-ups, that 100% of them appear as scheduled, and that you are able to fill every schedule gap without fail when setting up your schedule. Even with insurance those are far from reality.

I also think to genuinely do 40 hours of clinical care each week you would probably need to work at least 60 hours per week. You are going to do administrative work, you will have gaps in your schedule, and you will have no shows and late cancellations. You will also have to do intake assessments which typically reimburse less.

You also have to factor in dealing with people who have more pressing needs. If you have somehow filled your schedule to 100% full, are you going to be able to offer adequate follow-up to someone who is decompensating? I think having some schedule gaps is important for preserving quality of care and your own sanity.

I think starting with that fantasy number and then making various downward assumptions is a good way to go, though reality will be dictated by your local market and your skills running a practice including finding an adequate patient base. For example, maybe you make 90% of your total schedule available for clinical care, you fill 80% of available time slots, and you have a show rate of 80% (all fairly optimistic numbers). That might give you an estimate that is closer to the likely reality.
 
I also have not taken insurance in private practice. If you do, you have to factor in whether you will need a billing specialist or other office staff. If you do, that comes off your gross revenue as well.
 
One other thought though, I do like that clozareal estimated a psychotherapy add-on for only 50% of cases. My visits qualify for an add-on code probably closer to 80% of the time. Depending on reimbursement rates, that could tweak the numbers a bit higher.

And if you do find that you have some really stable people who do not need longer visits but who need to continue following with you, you could consider scheduling three per hour and increasing reimbursement that way. I would wait until you see how your workflow is going before seriously considering that route though.
 
My friends In medium and low cost are on the lower end 150-200. They did the fantasy math like above and found that in the end there gross numbers were at least 15-20% less esp when you combine holidays, no shows, denials, non payment and sometimes slower months as you won't be 100% filled always. Even with slim margins lets just say you have 30% overhead thats pretty optimistic when you account for billing, rent, utilities, staff etc.

Reality is if one did work 48 weeks and got the rates you said cut 15% off that 720k then another 30% off that number and your at 430k pre tax which still needs to be taxed by uncle sam/state/local/medicare/ss/ etc.

Also as you get older you probably want more than 4 weeks of vaca. I took double that last year and keeping that now.
Regardless of private practice or any setting, you're going to be taxed. The more appropriate contrasting cost to private practice is going to be practice expenses and benefits. My overhead is about 15% but I know some who have even less.

You also have to consider benefits if you are taking a salaried job as health insurance can be an additional $10k-50k per year for a family depending on the plan. It would cost my family of 4 about $4000/month for an equivalent health insurance to what my spouse has.
200-250 for that combination is on the high range for most of the US. Alma/Headway can get you around the lower end of that. A solo practitioner directly contracting with insurance in most parts of the country would be thrilled to get 150-200 for a 99214+90833. Also, therapy add on codes are never that close to E/M codes. My rates were about 110 for a 99214 and 40 for a 90833. Insurance heavily incentivizes the 15 minute follow up visit model.
Insurance rates are hyper-local. Alma/Headway aren't insurance companies, they're intermediaries that give the provider a rate after they factor in overhead themselves. How much do you think they take as a cut? Get paneled independently if you want to see what you'll get. I found that some group practices were getting around the same as me as a solo provider so I'm not sure how much leverage a group practice has even though everyone told me they have more.

The range of 99214 that I directly received from the big insurance companies ranges from $106 to $259 with an average of $185, with Medicare non-facility price being around $150. Mind you, this was 5 years ago when I first started my practice prior to post-pandemic demand increasing for psychiatrists. Also where I chose my office also changed the rates. I could have chosen an office two miles down the road in another county/zip code and that would have given me slightly but not insignificantly lower rates of about 2-5%.

The range of 90833 that I received is $70 to $151 with an average of $104 with medicare being $80.

That being said, my average for 99214+90833 from insurance contracts is closer to $300, which could be an outlier and why I underestimated but it is my experience. One outlier insurance company offered $400 for that combo.

Yes, obviously you would have to fill up that time and also 90792/99205 for intakes are probably not going to give you as much as follow-ups. You'll have to do many more intakes at the start of practice as well before scaling up but once you're settled into private practice, it's about margin efficiency.

After going through the insurance negotiation process and taking cash patients during that process, I decided not take insurance and only take cash as I was able to have an adequate stream of patients. I bill at a higher half hourly rate than $250. OP was asking about whether there is a realistic path and I wanted to give my two cents in on another path outside salaried jobs. My income has been >$500k since I've graduated with my cash only CAP practice in a VHCOL area but I'm also living in a VHCOL area so it feels less like it. My benefits are from my spouse but otherwise, I do put in max pre-tax 401k from employer and employee portion which is much more than what the employee max is and if I wanted to put in even more pretax money, I would do a cash balance plan.
 
I haven't updated this for newer medicare rates, but this sheet can help if someone is wanting to do estimates for their specific situation, just make a copy for yourself so you can edit the numbers.

Direct Link

This is fantastic. Thanks for creating this!

The path to >$500k with only Medicare seems to be working 7 clinical hours a day, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year.
 
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