PTE CTE Confusion & Enforcement

[TheDataKing]

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Hey Adcoms of SDN - @gyngyn @LizzyM @Moko @Catalystik,

I've been pondering this for quite some time and have friends who are curious as well. Seeing as the AMCAS Choose Your Medical School Tool is rather new, I have a few hypothetical questions. On the website, it specifically states "Before taking action within the AMCAS Choose Your Medical School tool, applicants should review school-specific instructions, policies, deadlines, and expectations about the use of this tool during the application process."

1) I realize you're supposed to drop to 3 acceptances on April 15 and 1 on April 30 - how is this enforced? Rather, is this more of an honor system?

2) If you PTE on April 30 to a school, AMCAS says " By selecting "Plan to Enroll," I am communicating to all schools at which I hold an acceptance that I have a made a choice about the school at which I plan to enroll, and that I have withdrawn from my other acceptances, and hold only one acceptance" What would happen if someone just never PTE at the schools where they were accepted and held multiple acceptances past April 30 but followed the CTE guideline and CTE when required?

3) Is there any way to know how this will impact financial aid packages and WL movement? While compiling the list of CTE dates yesterday, I noticed that a large number of schools have a CTE date of April 30. Do we know if this means they'll have WL movement sooner than schools who have a CTE deadline in May/June/July?

With all of this said, I realize the importance of dropping down to 3 acceptances on April 15 and to 1 on April 30 and this is all just hypothetical situations + morbid curiosity. Thanks for your help 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

Hey Adcoms of SDN - @gyngyn @LizzyM @Moko @Catalystik,

I've been pondering this for quite some time and have friends who are curious as well. Seeing as the AMCAS Choose Your Medical School Tool is rather new, I have a few hypothetical questions. On the website, it specifically states "Before taking action within the AMCAS Choose Your Medical School tool, applicants should review school-specific instructions, policies, deadlines, and expectations about the use of this tool during the application process."

1) I realize you're supposed to drop to 3 acceptances on April 15 and 1 on April 30 - how is this enforced? Rather, is this more of an honor system?

2) If you PTE on April 30 to a school, AMCAS says " By selecting "Plan to Enroll," I am communicating to all schools at which I hold an acceptance that I have a made a choice about the school at which I plan to enroll, and that I have withdrawn from my other acceptances, and hold only one acceptance" What would happen if someone just never PTE at the schools where they were accepted and held multiple acceptances past April 30 but followed the CTE guideline and CTE when required?

3) Is there any way to know how this will impact financial aid packages and WL movement? While compiling the list of CTE dates yesterday, I noticed that a large number of schools have a CTE date of April 30. Do we know if this means they'll have WL movement sooner than schools who have a CTE deadline in May/June/July?

With all of this said, I realize the importance of dropping down to 3 acceptances on April 15 and to 1 on April 30 and this is all just hypothetical situations + morbid curiosity. Thanks for your help 🙂

Hi! I'm no adcom, but I studied this ad nauseam on last year's WL support thread, where there was plenty of back and forth, consternation and confusion. I learned a lot as a result. The short answer to your question is that there is no enforcement, at least not until after 4/30. After that, if you look back to the AMCAS timeline you posted in your other thread, schools can run reports to see which of their As and WLs have PTEd or CTEd elsewhere, although they can't see the specific schools. They then enforce or not at their own discretion.

The wild card is that not all schools require the use of PTE or CTE. In that case, if you hold an A at those schools, other schools cannot see them if you don't PTE or CTE the particular school. Confusing? Good! Apparently it was designed to be.

The real fun starts when early CTE deadlines kick in. Once you select CTE, most other schools with later CTE deadlines will not admit you from their WLs, creating real inequity since your ability to be accepted off a school's WL at that point is dictated by an arbitrary CTE deadline set by a different school.

Hope this helps!!! 🙂

 

[Engrailed]

Hi! I'm no adcom, but I studied this ad nauseam on last year's WL support thread, where there was plenty of back and forth, consternation and confusion. I learned a lot as a result. The short answer to your question is that there is no enforcement, at least not until after 4/30. After that, if you look back to the AMCAS timeline you posted in your other thread, schools can run reports to see which of their As and WLs have PTEd or CTEd elsewhere, although they can't see the specific schools. They then enforce or not at their own discretion.

The wild card is that not all schools require the use of PTE or CTE. In that case, if you hold an A at those schools, other schools cannot see them if you don't PTE or CTE the particular school. Confusing? Good! Apparently it was designed to be.

The real fun starts when early CTE deadlines kick in. Once you select CTE, most other schools with later CTE deadlines will not admit you from their WLs, creating real inequity since your ability to be accepted off a school's WL at that point is dictated by an arbitrary CTE deadline set by a different school.

Hope this helps!!! 🙂

**confusion** ensues in my brain

 

[TheDataKing]

Hi! I'm no adcom, but I studied this ad nauseam on last year's WL support thread, where there was plenty of back and forth, consternation and confusion. I learned a lot as a result. The short answer to your question is that there is no enforcement, at least not until after 4/30. After that, if you look back to the AMCAS timeline you posted in your other thread, schools can run reports to see which of their As and WLs have PTEd or CTEd elsewhere, although they can't see the specific schools. They then enforce or not at their own discretion.

The wild card is that not all schools require the use of PTE or CTE. In that case, if you hold an A at those schools, other schools cannot see them if you don't PTE or CTE the particular school. Confusing? Good! Apparently it was designed to be.

The real fun starts when early CTE deadlines kick in. Once you select CTE, most other schools with later CTE deadlines will not admit you from their WLs, creating real inequity since your ability to be accepted off a school's WL at that point is dictated by an arbitrary CTE deadline set by a different school.

Hope this helps!!! 🙂

Thank you! That is helpful - I guess what I'm wondering is if someone held multiple As past April 30, it states that at this point "Medical schools can run detailed reports to identify accepted and alternate-list applicants who have selected “Plan to Enroll” or “Commit to Enroll” at their school versus another school." If a school has a CTE date of idk say July 15, you're not required to PTE before then it seems - so what keeps people from holding multiple As?

 

[LizzyM]

If you don’t comply with the rules, all offers may be withdrawn. Don’t take a chance. Learn the rules and play by them.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you! That is helpful - I guess what I'm wondering is if someone held multiple As past April 30, it states that at this point "Medical schools can run detailed reports to identify accepted and alternate-list applicants who have selected “Plan to Enroll” or “Commit to Enroll” at their school versus another school." If a school has a CTE date of idk say July 15, you're not required to PTE before then it seems - so what keeps people from holding multiple As?

Every school has its own requirements, and its own discretion with respect to enforcement. THAT'S what makes it all so confusing and unfair. The worst thing that can happen, and I think @gonnif has a few examples, is that you can have your A rescinded, which is the death penalty, so you really need to know what each school expects, and then strictly comply.

The specific answer to the question in your OP "What would happen if someone just never PTE at the schools where they were accepted and held multiple acceptances past April 30 but followed the CTE guideline and CTE when required? " varies from "nothing" to a school that requires a PTE on 4/30 and doesn't see one could send you an e-mail on 5/1 telling you that you no longer have an A. That's draconian, and most schools would warn you before taking action, but anything is possible.

The expectation is that on 4/30 you'll whittle down to one school where you'll be PTE, plus you'll stay on whatever WLs you want until your PTE school requires you to go CTE. Again, the wild card is that every school doesn't require use of the tool (I think Tulane was a notable exception last year), and if you keep an A at a school that doesn't require PTE/CTE, then the schools that DO require PTE/CTE won't be able to see it when they run the post-4/30 report.

Bottom line -- what keeps you from holding multiple As until the CTE deadline is that most schools will have an earlier PTE deadline, and if you select more than one school PTE, the schools can run a report and see that. And, as I said before, if you miss a PTE deadline, you put your A at risk.

While there were no reported instances last year of anything happening to a candidate that broke a CTE commitment, there also weren't any reports of anyone being accepted off any WLs after selecting a school as CTE. It appears that all schools using the tool respect the commitments made to other schools, and didn't interfere with them by accepting people off a WL that had CTE elsewhere, or allowing candidates that made a PTE/CTE selection elsewhere (after 4/30) to keep an A.

So, the only potential "gaming" that was apparent from last involves breaking a CTE commitment to matriculate at a school that doesn't require use of the tool. Also, as I said before, you can do anything you want before 4/30 (CTE isn't available before then, but PTE is), because there is no report available and no requirement as to number (just a "suggestion" to get down to 3 after 4/15), and therefore, no enforcement.

 

[gyngyn]

We cannot see which individual accepted student has committed to enroll elsewhere. We can only see how many. There were matriculated students that had committed to enroll elsewhere last year!
That is why we (as schools) cannot enforce the rules. AMCAS does know who is breaking the rules and has refused to enforce them (or allow us to do so).

 

[BluMist]

If I understood @gyngyn correctly, there is no way for the school to know if they are accepting individual off a WL that had CTE elsewhere.

While there were no reported instances last year of anything happening to a candidate that broke a CTE commitment, there also weren't any reports of anyone being accepted off any WLs after selecting a school as CTE. It appears that all schools using the tool respect the commitments made to other schools, and didn't interfere with them by accepting people off a WL that had CTE elsewhere, or allowing candidates that made a PTE/CTE selection elsewhere (after 4/30) to keep an A.

 

[gyngyn]

If I understood @gyngyn correctly, there is no way for the school to know if they are accepting individual off a WL that had CTE elsewhere.

We can't see which accepted students have committed to another school.

 

[BluMist]

We can't see which accepted students have committed to another school.

If that is the case, then how would the scenario @gonnif described happen? Did AMCAS indeed enforce the rule (or allowed the school to) in this instance?

Yes you can stay on PTE until CTE. But do not screw around with dates. I know of one student who had CTE date that landed on a weekend and assume he had until Monday. System automatically dropped him on Sunday

 

[gyngyn]

If that is the case, then how would the scenario @gonnif described happen? Did AMCAS indeed enforce the rule (or allowed the school to) in this instance?

I have no idea how the school figured it out.
I can tell you that we called Geoffrey Young to request names of accepted students holding CTE's elsewhere.
We were informed that they would not reveal this, nor would AAMC contact the students to point out the "double promise."

 

[deleted1001426]

I have no idea how the school figured it out.
I can tell you that we called Geoffrey Young to request names of accepted students holding CTE's elsewhere.
We were informed that they would not reveal this, nor would AAMC contact the students to point out the "double promise."

so what youre saying is that the whole CTE/PTE thing is useless as it doesnt provide meaningful info to schools and adds yet another arbitrary hoop to jump through for students..nice

 

[KnightDoc]

If that is the case, then how would the scenario @gonnif described happen? Did AMCAS indeed enforce the rule (or allowed the school to) in this instance?

Yes! @gyngyn did report this as her school's experience, @gonnif reported his differing experience, and several candidates reported either losing an A or being asked to remove themselves as PTE elsewhere, as their schools apparently knew they were not complying with the school's requirement not to be PTE or CTE elsewhere. YMMV.

Nobody resolved the differing experiences last year, but the AMCAS provided timeline does say that its tool will allow schools to identify which of their accepted and WL candidates have PTEd or CTEd elsewhere, while @gyngyn's experience was that this identification was not provided . Who knows what will happen this year??? Taking everyone at their word, it looks like the report functionality at @gyngyn's school never progressed past the aggregate reporting available on 2/19, while other schools apparently had access to to identiying information after 4/30, since there were multiple reports of schools reaching out to students in response to information pulled from these reports. Moreover, @gyngyn was told her school couldn't have this functionality, leaving them impotent to enforce their own requirements!

My takeaway is that everyone should do what they think is right for them, with the caveat that there were multiple of reports of people being caught screwing around and suffering a severe consequence while others reported doing whatever they wanted with impunity. Everyone has a different risk/reward calculus to work through.

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn the software can be configured to be able to run detailed reports (after April 1st I believe) that allow you to list all accepted students and see if they have any PTE/CTE at "other" schools. I am guessing that they did not have the proper rights/access assigned to your users. Depending you are using AMCAS-direct or a a third-party front end, there is a configuration issue somewhere.

We addressed that with AMCAS. They assured us that this was a uniform practice.

 

[KnightDoc]

@gyngyn the software can be configured to be able to run detailed reports (after April 1st I believe) that allow you to list all accepted students and see if they have any PTE/CTE at "other" schools. I am guessing that they did not have the proper rights/access assigned to your users. Depending you are using AMCAS-direct or a a third-party front end, there is a configuration issue somewhere.

The magic date is 4/30 according to their published timeline. It looks like this might explain why @gyngyn's experience differed from others'.

 

[TheDataKing]

yes it is an honor system

I had to read this 3 times to see if I was understanding this correctly. You mean you really cant see this? Really? You're kidding, right?
If you dont tell schools you plan to enroll by April 30 THEY CAN DROP YOU IMMEDIATELY . If you dont tell them, they can assume that you are not planning to attend and will rescind you then and there.



At some schools WL movement have already started, at others there will be none. There is no way to predict. And there is no requirement for any school to provide any financial aid info prior to PTE or CTE or WL. You may have decide on a school without this info.

Thank you for the carefully articulated information and kind phrasing regarding all of this - I appreciate it!!

 

[sgw97]

So I'm currently accepted at my state school who has a CTE deadline of 5/1, and I'm currently on the waitlist at 2 other schools I'd honestly prefer over my state school. 1 of my WL schools says they continually re-review and send offers throughout the cycle, and the other says they usually admit off the waitlist from May later. If I commit to enroll at my state school on 5/1, do I have to tell these other schools that I no longer want to be on their waitlist and miss out on potential admission?

 

[KnightDoc]

So I'm currently accepted at my state school who has a CTE deadline of 5/1, and I'm currently on the waitlist at 2 other schools I'd honestly prefer over my state school. 1 of my WL schools says they continually re-review and send offers throughout the cycle, and the other says they usually admit off the waitlist from May later. If I commit to enroll at my state school on 5/1, do I have to tell these other schools that I no longer want to be on their waitlist and miss out on potential admission?

Yes. And, presumably, if they follow the guidelines, they'll see that you CTEd even if you don't tell them, and they won't call you off the WL. But the rules for CTE state that you must withdraw all other As and WLs. This was huge thing last year, as CTE deadlines were staggered from 5/1 through the beginning of August, and people were forced to withdraw from WLs at random times dictated by arbitrary CTE deadlines set by other schools.

 

[sgw97]

Yes. And, presumably, if they follow the guidelines, they'll see that you CTEd even if you don't tell them, and they won't call you off the WL. But the rules for CTE state that you must withdraw all other As and WLs. This was huge thing last year, as CTE deadlines were staggered from 5/1 through the beginning of August, and people were forced to withdraw from WLs at random times dictated by arbitrary CTE deadlines set by other schools.

Thank you! This system really is a mess, huh.

 

[Catalystik]

This system really is a mess, huh.

Yup.

 

[NewBalancePremed]

Yes. And, presumably, if they follow the guidelines, they'll see that you CTEd even if you don't tell them, and they won't call you off the WL. But the rules for CTE state that you must withdraw all other As and WLs. This was huge thing last year, as CTE deadlines were staggered from 5/1 through the beginning of August, and people were forced to withdraw from WLs at random times dictated by arbitrary CTE deadlines set by other schools.

shocking that the schools get to screw applicants over one more time in the cycle!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you! This system really is a mess, huh.

Totally -- I was BEGGING last year for the adcoms to try to force some modifications, like having a common CTE deadline or allowing candidates to remain on WLs until the bitter end, but, apparently, AMCAS LOVES the new system, and there have been no changes.

While most of the posts on SDN revolve around confusion of how it works, or whether or not the system can or should be gamed, for me the biggest issue that has not been addressed is the inherent unfairness in the fact that one's eligibility to be accepted off an given school's WL after 4/30 is ultimately not determined by one's position on the WL, or the candidate's or WL school's wants or needs, but, rather, by artificial CTE deadlines set by schools where the candidate has an A that are sometimes several months before classes begin.

There is no reason for this other than AMCAS abdicating responsibility to the schools, and the early CTE schools acting in their own best interests to the detriment of the future MD inputs in their medical education machine.

Edit: It is worth noting, however, that according to AAMC data, the VAST majority of WL movement (99%) occurs prior to 6/1. Consequently, if a school's CTE deadline is 6/1 or later, there really isn't much effect on your chance at an acceptance off a WL, since your chances are close to zero in any event. On the other hand, around 25% of WL movement occurred in May last year, so setting a 4/30 CTE deadline would destroy your chance to be part of that group.

-- @gonnif -- is it true that WL activity as defined by AAMC means acceptance off a WL (which is what I am assuming), or does it mean something else?

 

[BluMist]

Interesting data from the AAMC powerpoint posted by @gonnif, wondering which schools over/under-enrolled by such a wide margin and whether they are the ones who are now more aggressive with the CTE dates.

 

[kahunas007]

So I'm currently accepted at my state school who has a CTE deadline of 5/1, and I'm currently on the waitlist at 2 other schools I'd honestly prefer over my state school. 1 of my WL schools says they continually re-review and send offers throughout the cycle, and the other says they usually admit off the waitlist from May later. If I commit to enroll at my state school on 5/1, do I have to tell these other schools that I no longer want to be on their waitlist and miss out on potential admission?

My understanding is that on 4/30, when you selected PTE to your state school, you can still remain on all WL. If you get off the WL for one of your more preferred school, you can choose to PTE to that school instead of your state school. The kicker is if your state school, where you PTE, requires you to CTE by a determined date, you must select CTE to your state school by that date or lose your A, even if you have not heard from the other two more preferred schools. Once you select CTE to your state school, you will be dropped from all WL, which is a bummer, because you may ultimately get off the WL, but you will never know since you had to CTE your state school. you have a classic case of "One bird in a bag is worth two in the bushes."

 

[Goro]

shocking that the schools get to screw applicants over one more time in the cycle!!!

Blame AMCAS, not the schools.

 

[KnightDoc]

Blame AMCAS, not the schools.

But AMCAS doesn't set the CTE deadlines; the schools do!

I agree that AMCAS set this whole cluster **** in motion, but schools aren't helping by not allowing applicants to remain on WLs indefinitely (apparently, there would be no harm, since WL movement drops off dramatically after May, and because med school admission is such a seller's market that any unfilled seats could always be filled by highly qualified candidates, even after classes start), or by agreeing to a common CTE date. Setting CTE dates months in advance of orientation is really just obnoxious and unnecessary, and has nothing to do with AMCAS. All it does is interfere with some people's ability to remain on WLs.

 

[Goro]

But AMCAS doesn't set the CTE deadlines; the schools do!

I agree that AMCAS set this whole cluster **** in motion, but schools aren't helping by not allowing applicants to remain on WLs indefinitely (apparently, there would be no harm, since WL movement drops off dramatically after May, and because med school admission is such a seller's market that any unfilled seats could always be filled by highly qualified candidates, even after classes start), or by agreeing to a common CTE date. Setting CTE dates months in advance of orientation is really just obnoxious and unnecessary, and has nothing to do with AMCAS. All it does is interfere with some people's ability to remain on WLs.

The schools are working blind thanks to AMCAS. I'll wager there are reams of lawyers advising them not to do anything that smacks of collusion, either.

I empathize with you all, I really do, but I also remind SDNers that unless you can show me the gun that was placed to your head and forced y'all to apply to med school, you willingly chose this path, with all its trials and tribulations.

 

[KnightDoc]

The schools are working blind thanks to AMCAS. I'll wager there are reams of lawyers advising them not to do anything that smacks of collusion, either.

Even though they already "collude" with respect to common application open dates and early acceptance dates! 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

The schools are working blind thanks to AMCAS. I'll wager there are reams of lawyers advising them not to do anything that smacks of collusion, either.

I empathize with you all, I really do, but I also remind SDNers that unless you can show me the gun that was placed to your head and forced y'all to apply to med school, you willingly chose this path, with all its trials and tribulations.

You are, of course, 1,000% correct about guns, trials and tribulations, but just because organizations could abuse superior market power doesn't make it right. In fact, in some cases, it is illegal.

Ironically, it is AMCAS' unfounded fear of legal consequences arising from the use of the old MAR that has led to this situation. Sadly, while this unnecessary inequity could be fixed, the only party here with an interest to fix it lacks the market power to do so.

How do you feel about price gouging during natural disasters? Also no guns to heads involved! 🙂 Minimum wage laws? Lack of access to medical care for those who can't afford it? Lots of inequitable situations that don't involve guns to heads, but yet we somehow find a way to address as a society. Maybe AMCAS and its member schools should consider leading by example in their med school admission system, and do what they can to lessen candidates trials and tribulations and address legitimate concerns. 🙂

 

[Goro]

You are, of course, 1,000% correct about guns, trials and tribulations, but just because organizations could abuse superior market power doesn't make it right. In fact, in some cases, it is illegal.

Ironically, it is AMCAS' unfounded fear of legal consequences arising from the use of the old MAR that has led to this situation. Sadly, while this unnecessary inequity could be fixed, the only party here with an interest to fix it lacks the market power to do so.

How do you feel about price gouging during natural disasters? Also no guns to heads involved! 🙂 Minimum wage laws? Lack of access to medical care for those who can't afford it? Lots of inequitable situations that don't involve guns to heads, but yet we somehow find a way to address as a society. Maybe AMCAS and its member schools should consider leading by example in their med school admission system, and do what they can to lessen candidates trials and tribulations and address legitimate concerns. 🙂

Price gouging????? Medical school is not a necessity like food

 

[KnightDoc]

Price gouging????? Medical school is not a necessity like food

🙂 I'm sure some candidates would disagree! 🙂

Maybe minimum wage is a better argument. Nobody is forcing people to work for substandard wages. Why should society care if lower SES people are exploited, and why shouldn't businesses be allowed to do whatever is in their best interest (paying the lowest wages someone will accept)?

Nevertheless, the argument that nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head remains. People could choose to stock up on necessities before a disaster, or pay a higher price afterward. By the way, I'm all for anti-gouging laws (and minimum wage laws!). I'm just saying that the fact AMCAS and the schools COULD do something doesn't make it right, and inequities could and should be addressed.

The fact that applicants could choose to go to law school or business school (or anything else!) instead doesn't mean that problems shouldn't be fixed, just because schools are in the driver's seat and there will be more qualified applicants than seats regardless. One could easily see a day, if universal health care ever becomes a reality and medical professional incomes become relatively less attractive, that medical school admissions become a lot less competitive. You can bet that in such an environment the schools would fall over themselves to accommodate reasonable requests, like allowing candidates to carry WL spots right into orientation.

At the end of the day, the issue really is more theoretical than anything, because, as we all know, it only affects a small part of the applicant pool. 60% of all applicants don't have any CTE deadlines to worry about, 60% of the remaining 40% only ever receive one acceptance, and the vast majority of WL movement happens before any CTE deadlines kick in, so why on earth not just allow incoming students to hold WL positions indefinitely?

Many schools would see no effect at all, and the few who lost a matriculant or two due to last minute WL movement would easily fill that seat from their own WL. If the answer is "because they don't have to, it would be inconvenient, and they don't care about their incoming students," that's really kind of lame.

 

[Med Ed]

At the end of the day, the issue really is more theoretical than anything, because, as we all know, it only affects a small part of the applicant pool. 60% of all applicants don't have any CTE deadlines to worry about, 60% of the remaining 40% only ever receive one acceptance, and the vast majority of WL movement happens before any CTE deadlines kick in, so why on earth not just allow incoming students to hold WL positions indefinitely?

How would that benefit the schools?

 

[KnightDoc]

How would that benefit the schools?

How would what benefit the schools? Allowing people to hold WL spots until the end? It wouldn't, but it also wouldn't cost them anything, other than a little inconvenience. With multiple qualified applicants for every available seat, they could easily fill any last minute vacancies, even after orientation begins, with their own WL, and they would be accommodating student wishes, just like every other institution of higher education (US, JD, MBA, etc.), and just like they used to do before last year.

Again, I get WHY they do what they do, but they really don't have to, it's obnoxious, and if they weren't abusing their superior power and position, they'd never be able to get away with it. As it is, I'm sure lower ranked schools with early CTE deadlines lose applicants with multiple As who want to stay on WLs (and this probably keeps them in line and inhibits them from doing this, although I haven't done a study by CTE deadline and USNWR ranking 🙂). In a perfect world, everyone would have multiple choices, and they'd never get away with this.

 

[Med Ed]

It wouldn't,

Exactly. At some point the cycle needs to end.

 

[KnightDoc]

Exactly. At some point the cycle needs to end.

🙂 Why can't that point be when classes begin? It's a tiny point, impacting maybe a couple hundred out of 20,000 matriculants, but it's a huge deal to those few people, it would cost the schools NOTHING, and the cycle would end on its own regardless.

I do get it, as the great @gonnif has been gracious enough to point out on several occasions -- we are entitled to nothing (not even a rejection notice). It's just heartwarming to witness these paragons of virtue responsible for training the next generation of medical doctors acting in such a heavy handed manner. And then they wonder why candidates don't always act as ethically as they would like. 🙂

 

[Med Ed]

🙂 Why can't that point be when classes begin?

Ask the people in student affairs and financial aid who actually have to onboard any last minute matriculants. I'm sure they will be excited to hear your opinions on how little their time is worth.

 

[KnightDoc]

Ask the people in student affairs and financial aid who actually have to onboard any last minute matriculants. I'm sure they will be excited to hear your opinions on how little their time is worth.

I'm sure their time is worth a great deal. I just wonder if it's worth more than the four year cost of attendance of someone who was denied freedom of movement by an arbitrary deadline, and without whom, their time truly would be worth nothing because there would be nobody paying tuition to fund their salaries.

By the way, there is an easy solution that would work for everyone -- an early, common CTE deadline that allowed for freedom of WL movement. The schools could then work out among themselves when WL movement should end in order to respect the time of staff who need to onboard last minute matriculants.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm sure their time is worth a great deal. I just wonder if it's worth more than the four year cost of attendance of someone who was denied freedom of movement by an arbitrary deadline, and without whom, their time truly would be worth nothing because there would be nobody paying tuition to fund their salaries.

The start of the semester is not arbitrary.

By the way, there is an easy solution that would work for everyone -- an early, common CTE deadline that allowed for freedom of WL movement. The schools could then work out among themselves when WL movement should end in order to respect the time of staff who need to onboard last minute matriculants.

Yes, just get every medical school in a big room to agree on something. What could be easier?

 

[KnightDoc]

The start of the semester is not arbitrary.



Yes, just get every medical school in a big room to agree on something. What could be easier?

🙂

No, the start of the semester is not arbitrary. I don't expect you to have spent the time to have followed this thread from the beginning, but that was never my point. My point was that it is unfair, and arbitrary, for some schools to set early CTE deadlines while others don't. Early CTE deadlines force candidates to withdraw from WLs needlessly. No school needs a 4/30 deadline, unless its semester starts in the middle of May! No school needs a 5/31 deadline, unless its semester starts in the middle of June!

I don't know about EVERY medical school needing to be in a room agreeing on things, but, somehow, 10/15 became a universal date, as did 6/1. I'm sure AMCAS could figure a way to come up with a CTE date later than 4/30 that allows for WL movement, and that schools could figure out a way to push their WL movement into a window that works for everyone without forcing some candidates to withdraw while others are allowed to remain, for reasons that have nothing to do with a candidate's position on the WL or desire to attend the school.

 

[NewBalancePremed]

I would like to say that this has been an interesting back and forth so thanks for the insight. Also to the ADCOMs responding, topics like this aren't meant with disrespect or purposeful arrogance, just as applicants we see this topic of CTE dates as possibly being a negative to us so its nice to peek under the hood for some reasoning as to why it works this way! Especially as well all try to understand the new traffic rules!

 

[Med Ed]

My point was that it is unfair, and arbitrary, for some schools to set early CTE deadlines while others don't.

I don't think so. UCSF, NYU, Mississippi and Drexel all have very different admissions cycles, they should have the authority to make certain determinations about their respective deadlines. Everyone has the right to look after there own interests in this process, and that applies to schools as well as applicants.

It may be more helpful to frame it this way: the default, baseline CTE deadline for all medical school is 4/30. Some schools, however, have decided to be nice and extend their CTE deadlines beyond 4/30. The variance in CTE dates therefore isn't a punishment, it's a gift. I'm willing to be that if a uniform CTE date were ever set it would be far closer to April than August, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't think so. UCSF, NYU, Mississippi and Drexel all have very different admissions cycles, they should have the authority to make certain determinations about their respective deadlines. Everyone has the right to look after there own interests in this process, and that applies to schools as well as applicants.

It may be more helpful to frame it this way: the default, baseline CTE deadline for all medical school is 4/30. Some schools, however, have decided to be nice and extend their CTE deadlines beyond 4/30. The variance in CTE dates therefore isn't a punishment, it's a gift. I'm willing to be that if a uniform CTE date were ever set it would be far closer to April than August, so be careful what you wish for.

My understanding is that 4/30 is not the "baseline" CTE deadline -- it is merely the earliest that the selection is available on the CYMS tool. The so-called baseline is "3 weeks prior to orientation." In any event, any date at all would be fine, so long as everyone had an equal chance to be accepted off the WL of their choice. The issue isn't whether the CTE date is 4/30 or 7/31, it's that you might be allowed to stay on a WL longer than me simply because your school gave you a "gift" while mine didn't. (By the way, the 4/30 baseline wasn't handed down from the heavens, it was set by collective action of the schools through AMCAS.) Allowing candidates freedom of movement until the end of the cycle really shouldn't be considered a "gift," and such arrogance is reflective of nothing other than the superior market power of the schools. And by freedom of movement I don't mean the ability to hold multiple As beyond a reasonable deadline (4/30), but I do mean the ability to accept an A whenever one is forthcoming.

Of course, schools should have the authority to make whatever determinations they want, but a desire to lock in a class two months early should not trump a candidate's ability to be accepted off another school's WL, and there are several simple ways to address this. It isn't done merely because those with the ability and power to do so choose not to, not for compelling reasons, but because of convenience and indifference.

If everyone agreed to enforce 4/30 PTE date where candidates had to reduce to one school, this would provoke a lot of WL movement in May. A 5/31 CTE date would then solve most of the issue. Which schools would not be able to manage this and seat a class? The only trickle of movement after 5/31 would be caused by schools losing matriculants at the last minute to WLs, and that could certainly be addressed in June with minimal inconvenience.

 

[vomitcom]

We are already having our money effectively stolen by numerous schools who don't screen pre-secondary, the least they can do is be somewhat courteous to us.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

A 5/31 CTE date would then solve most of the issue. Which schools would not be able to manage this and seat a class? The only trickle of movement after 5/31 would be caused by schools losing matriculants at the last minute to WLs, and that could certainly be addressed in June with minimal inconvenience.

Or we could keep it really simple and just allow applicants to remain on (and come off of) waitlists after CTE is selected so long as they don’t hold more than one A at a time after 4/30. No other changes would have to be made to the system or require any further action on the medical schools’ end.

I think something that could change/standardize this process is state schools getting mad that they’re losing their (ostensibly still desirable) in-state WL candidates to OOS private schools with early CTE deadlines. Some of these physicians will return to their home state to practice, but many won’t, and I could see states getting mad that they’re exporting strong candidates who would otherwise matriculate at State U (and stay in state to practice) if only a medical school spot were to become available. I’m not sure how frequently this scenario would occur, though.

I don’t know though, maybe by the time you’re at waitlist status with a school you’re just entirely expendable since you weren’t given an A straight away and nobody cares if you go elsewhere - they’ll just pull the next person with no competing offers off the WL.

Anyway, I appreciate the adcoms weighing in on this matter, but I have to say I’m really surprised at the intense pushback @KnightDoc is getting for addressing the problems with the varying CTE policies at different institutions. His/her objections seem pretty reasonable, frankly, and I’m not sure why these ideas are seen as controversial at all. AAMC and medical schools somehow manage to coordinate other dates and deadlines, and I don’t really buy that it would be too difficult to standardize this process in a way that’s a bit more user friendly for the applicants (yeah, yeah, I know. We applicants are just the raw material for this process and we should have no expectation of any consideration or convenience, etc.)

 

[Med Ed]

Anyway, I appreciate the adcoms weighing in on this matter, but I have to say I’m really surprised at the intense pushback @KnightDoc is getting for addressing the problems with the varying CTE policies at different institutions. His/her objections seem pretty reasonable, frankly, and I’m not sure why these ideas are seen as controversial at all.

It has already been admitted that WL movement is minimal after May, so this is basically arguing for the blanket imposition of yet another deadline on schools that will affect a minuscule number of applicants.

Look, we get it, it's irritating to languish on WLs ad nauseum and then have to give them up, just like it was irritating to lose the MAR and NAR. The only potential winner from this re-engineering is AMCAS for avoiding a phantom lawsuit.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

It has already been admitted that WL movement is minimal after May, so this is basically arguing for the blanket imposition of yet another deadline on schools that will affect a minuscule number of applicants.

Look, we get it, it's irritating to languish on WLs ad nauseum and then have to give them up, just like it was irritating to lose the MAR and NAR. The only potential winner from this re-engineering is AMCAS for avoiding a phantom lawsuit.

The majority of WL movement at my state schools occurred this past May after the CTE date. And just two weeks ago, I was waitlisted at a program and was told that, although I’m highly ranked on the alternate list, I shouldn’t expect to come off the list until “on or after May 1” and that is a direct quote. I am very, very fortunate in that the programs where I’ve interviewed/ been accepted/waitlisted all have generous CTE deadlines, but it could have turned out very differently for me.

I know that “only” 25% of WL movement occurred in May this year, but I guess I don’t consider that a minuscule amount of candidates. Also, is it reasonable to assume this trend will continue into 2020 now that schools have had a cycle to see how the new PTE/CTE system plays out? Honest question.

Ironically enough, section 6.2 of AAMC’s traffic rules states that, after April 30, schools are advised to “Recognize and respect the challenges of applicants with multiple acceptance offers, applicants who have not yet received an acceptance offer, and applicants who have not yet been informed about financial aid opportunities at schools to which they have been accepted.“ Now, I know that this is not binding in any way, but it still made me go “hmmmm.” Why come out with protocols like this if there isn’t a recognized problem with how applicants are currently handled?

 

[vomitcom]

"Applicants are expendable resources, you all need to deal with a bad system because we don't value you. Shove it, but I'm 'sorry.'" Is the takeaway I am getting from this thread.

I haven't seen any reason other than laziness/selfishness for the schools to not make a change that would benefit us and not hurt them at all.

 

[Med Ed]

The majority of WL movement at my state schools occurred this past May after the CTE date.

I know. That's why I said WL movement is minimal after May. By the time the July CTE deadlines roll around the odds of getting off a WL somewhere become vanishingly small.

Also, is it reasonable to assume this trend will continue into 2020 now that schools have had a cycle to see how the new PTE/CTE system plays out? Honest question.

What trend are you referring to?

Ironically enough, section 6.2 of AAMC’s traffic rules states that, after April 30, schools are advised to “Recognize and respect the challenges of applicants with multiple acceptance offers, applicants who have not yet received an acceptance offer, and applicants who have not yet been informed about financial aid opportunities at schools to which they have been accepted.“ Now, I know that this is not binding in any way, but it still made me go “hmmmm.” Why come out with protocols like this if there isn’t a recognized problem with how applicants are currently handled?

We interpreted that to mean "This is new for everyone, so try and give others the benefit of the doubt." We're all human.

 

[Med Ed]

I haven't seen any reason other than laziness/selfishness for the schools to not make a change that would benefit us and not hurt them at all.

It's an AMCAS decision, not a school decision.

 

[KnightDoc]

It has already been admitted that WL movement is minimal after May, so this is basically arguing for the blanket imposition of yet another deadline on schools that will affect a minuscule number of applicants.

Look, we get it, it's irritating to languish on WLs ad nauseum and then have to give them up, just like it was irritating to lose the MAR and NAR. The only potential winner from this re-engineering is AMCAS for avoiding a phantom lawsuit.

YES!!!! We are actually in violent agreement on this. In practice, the issue will affect very few applicants, but it is EVERYTHING to those who are affected, and basically NOTHING to the schools, and yet they do not address it because they do not have to. WL movement is insignificant after May, but very significant in May, after the 4/30 PTE/CTE deadline.

The simple fix would be to make 4/30 a universal PTE deadline in which everyone has to reduce to one A, and not require CTE until at least 5/31 to allow for the significant May WL movement. Maybe the threat of a phantom lawsuit against some school for restricting competition by acting in concert with AMCAS to inhibit an applicant's ability to accept an A from another school's WL would provide the necessary motivation for the schools to address this? After all, to paraphrase @Goro, nobody put a metaphorical gun to any school's head and forced them to set an early CTE deadline and restrict accepted applicants' ability to remain on competing schools' WLs! 🙂