PTE CTE Confusion & Enforcement

[KnightDoc]

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Or we could keep it really simple and just allow applicants to remain on (and come off of) waitlists after CTE is selected so long as they don’t hold more than one A at a time after 4/30. No other changes would have to be made to the system or require any further action on the medical schools’ end.

I think something that could change/standardize this process is state schools getting mad that they’re losing their (ostensibly still desirable) in-state WL candidates to OOS private schools with early CTE deadlines. Some of these physicians will return to their home state to practice, but many won’t, and I could see states getting mad that they’re exporting strong candidates who would otherwise matriculate at State U (and stay in state to practice) if only a medical school spot were to become available. I’m not sure how frequently this scenario would occur, though.

I don’t know though, maybe by the time you’re at waitlist status with a school you’re just entirely expendable since you weren’t given an A straight away and nobody cares if you go elsewhere - they’ll just pull the next person with no competing offers off the WL.

Anyway, I appreciate the adcoms weighing in on this matter, but I have to say I’m really surprised at the intense pushback @KnightDoc is getting for addressing the problems with the varying CTE policies at different institutions. His/her objections seem pretty reasonable, frankly, and I’m not sure why these ideas are seen as controversial at all. AAMC and medical schools somehow manage to coordinate other dates and deadlines, and I don’t really buy that it would be too difficult to standardize this process in a way that’s a bit more user friendly for the applicants (yeah, yeah, I know. We applicants are just the raw material for this process and we should have no expectation of any consideration or convenience, etc.)

What you are describing with CTE already exists -- it's how PTE presently works after 4/30!!! Hence, even that change doesn't have to be made. The change required would be to not require CTE until WL movement has had a chance to occur in May.

 

[KnightDoc]

I know. That's why I said WL movement is minimal after May. By the time the July CTE deadlines roll around the odds of getting off a WL somewhere become vanishingly small.



What trend are you referring to?



We interpreted that to mean "This is new for everyone, so try and give others the benefit of the doubt." We're all human.

BINGO!! It's the large May movement that candidates are needlessly forced to miss if they are "fortunate" enough to only have As at schools with a 4/30 CTE deadline that is the problem. The July CTE dates are not at issue.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

What trend are you referring to?

I was referring to the earlier quoted statistic of 25% of candidates coming off the WL post April 30 (I haven’t seen this data in person, just in the thread, so hopefully I understood that correctly). I was curious if more movement after 4/30 could be expected in 2020 now that there’s been one full cycle using the PTE/CTE system.

I get why it’s not feasible for all programs to extend CTE deadlines until the start of the semester, but surely it’s not unreasonable to allow applicants some time in May/into early June to remain on PTE status with their top-choice acceptance and see how WL movement plays out - just as @KnightDoc has been saying this whole time. That’s my point, too.

Also, allowing candidates to hold onto PTE status and their WL spots through May will be broadly beneficial for all medical schools as well - they can get their fair shot at pulling strong candidates off their alternate lists and not risk losing them to programs playing hardball with early CTE deadlines. It seems like this is just the most transparent, equitable option for all parties. IDK though, maybe I’m overestimating how much interest schools have in their alternate list candidates.

 

[KnightDoc]

I was referring to the earlier quoted statistic of 25% of candidates coming off the WL post April 30 (I haven’t seen this data in person, just in the thread, so hopefully I understood that correctly). I was curious if more movement after 4/30 could be expected in 2020 now that there’s been one full cycle using the PTE/CTE system.

I get why it’s not feasible for all programs to extend CTE deadlines until the start of the semester, but surely it’s not unreasonable to allow applicants some time in May/into early June to remain on PTE status with their top-choice acceptance and see how WL movement plays out - just as @KnightDoc has been saying this whole time. That’s my point, too.

Also, allowing candidates to hold onto PTE status and their WL spots through May will be broadly beneficial for all medical schools as well - they can get their fair shot at pulling strong candidates off their alternate lists and not risk losing them to programs playing hardball with early CTE deadlines. It seems like this is just the most transparent, equitable option for all parties. IDK though, maybe I’m overestimating how much interest schools have in their alternate list candidates.

Some schools actually do care a great deal, and set their CTE deadlines as late as possible to give their acceptees the maximum flexibility to do what is best for them. It's the schools with the early CTE deadlines who don't care. They are gaming the system at the expense of the other schools, and, of course, their matriculants. They aren't adversely affected, because they get first dibs on locking down their class, and those with the earliest deadline by definition have the best shot of pulling whoever they want off their own WLs, since many other schools' CTE deadline wouldn't have kicked in yet. The only negative for them is they risk losing candidates with other As with later CTE deadlines who also want to stay on WLs.

You are absolutely correct, and I'm pretty sure some schools with later deadlines have been lobbying to fix the system since they now do lose WL candidates to other schools who are gaming the system. Unfortunately, there has apparently been no consensus, and you can see where the adcoms here stand (basically, sorry you don't like it, but it's a sellers' market, so tough!).

 

[Med Ed]

I was referring to the earlier quoted statistic of 25% of candidates coming off the WL post April 30 (I haven’t seen this data in person, just in the thread, so hopefully I understood that correctly). I was curious if more movement after 4/30 could be expected in 2020 now that there’s been one full cycle using the PTE/CTE system.

Doubtful. Most WL movement has always occurred in the 4-6 weeks after the deadline for choosing one acceptance.

I get why it’s not feasible for all programs to extend CTE deadlines until the start of the semester, but surely it’s not unreasonable to allow applicants some time in May/into early June to remain on PTE status with their top-choice acceptance and see how WL movement plays out - just as @KnightDoc has been saying this whole time. That’s my point, too.

Also, allowing candidates to hold onto PTE status and their WL spots through May will be broadly beneficial for all medical schools as well - they can get their fair shot at pulling strong candidates off their alternate lists and not risk losing them to programs playing hardball with early CTE deadlines. It seems like this is just the most transparent, equitable option for all parties. IDK though, maybe I’m overestimating how much interest schools have in their alternate list candidates.

I think the process would be better if letters of intent were legally binding.

Schools do have interest in their alternate list candidates. But they also have interest in finalizing their respective enrollments according to their own needs. Almost all the 4/30 schools are public with strong in-state preference, and almost all of their accepted applicants have decided to void or get off the pot before the end of April.

The "S" in AMCAS stands for "Service." It is something that schools use voluntarily in order to access the entire pool of applicants. AMCAS does not own the application process. It can choose to withhold information from schools, but has no discernible way to dictate or enforce how schools want to handle their own internal deadlines. There has already been some talk about launching an AMCAS competitor or a having a mass exodus, where schools would go back to having unique applications. Heck, if you really want to waste time and money we could institute a match.

 

[KnightDoc]

Doubtful. Most WL movement has always occurred in the 4-6 weeks after the deadline for choosing one acceptance.



I think the process would be better if letters of intent were legally binding.

Schools do have interest in their alternate list candidates. But they also have interest in finalizing their respective enrollments according to their own needs. Almost all the 4/30 schools are public with strong in-state preference, and almost all of their accepted applicants have decided to void or get off the pot before the end of April.

The "S" in AMCAS stands for "Service." It is something that schools use voluntarily in order to access the entire pool of applicants. AMCAS does not own the application process. It can choose to withhold information from schools, but has no discernible way to dictate or enforce how schools want to handle their own internal deadlines. There has already been some talk about launching an AMCAS competitor or a having a mass exodus, where schools would go back to having unique applications. Heck, if you really want to waste time and money we could institute a match.

Not true with respect to WL movement. People are already withdrawing from As. Everyone doesn't wait until the very last minute to make a decision. There is a ton of WL activity prior to 5/1, and another burst after it.

If I'm wrong about the level of activity prior to 5/1, that's even more reason not to inhibit people's ability to participate. Since, according to you, the 4/30 schools mostly have people voluntarily making commitments by then, there is no reason to force the minority to CTE before they have exhausted their WL possibilities.

AMCAS has no way to dictate -- then why can't I receive an acceptance before 10/15, or file an application before 6/1, or choose CTE before 4/30???

 

[NewBalancePremed]

I think the process would be better if letters of intent were legally binding.

I think some type of system where you could send such a letter where, if accepted, you would be stripped of other acceptances would be beneficial for applicants as well! Say you absolutely fell in love with a school on your interview day or have strong preference for IS school for financial/family ties & truly want to express that you're set on attending...I can only imagine how equally beneficial it would be for schools in terms of filling your class from WL and also preserving higher ratios of offer:matriculate

Heck, if you really want to waste time and money we could institute a match.

*sigh* I think this just speaks to the previously stated point of where the market power is and "suck it up" (not saying there's not some merit to that sentiment)

 

[KnightDoc]

I think some type of system where you could send such a letter where, if accepted, you would be stripped of other acceptances would be beneficial for applicants as well! Say you absolutely fell in love with a school on your interview day or have strong preference for IS school for financial/family ties & truly want to express that you're set on attending...I can only imagine how equally beneficial it would be for schools in terms of filling your class from WL and also preserving higher ratios of offer:matriculate


*sigh* I think this just speaks to the previously stated point of where the market power is and "suck it up" (not saying there's not some merit to that sentiment)

They already have something like this - it's called Early Decision. It sucks for several reasons, and so it's not widely used, but it is a vehicle for you to express binding, undying love for one school.

 

[NewBalancePremed]

They already have something like this - it's called Early Decision. It sucks for several reasons, and so it's not widely used, but it is a vehicle for you to express binding, undying love for one school.

Right, but as you mentioned the timeline of that process limits casting a wide net as is recommended, so perhaps my comment about truly finding a fit with a school on interview day is more applicable. Sure you knew you wanted to apply but perhaps could not fathom how much it lined up with your goals/experiences until said interview, but now you wish to have some mechanism to get that across as you sit on the WL with others who may turn that school down regardless

 

[Med Ed]

Not true with respect to WL movement. People are already withdrawing from As. Everyone doesn't wait until the very last minute to make a decision. There is a ton of WL activity prior to 5/1, and another burst after it.

The schools I am familiar with over-accept and don't get to their WLs until on or shortly before 4/30. I'm sure there are exceptions.

 

[KnightDoc]

Right, but as you mentioned the timeline of that process limits casting a wide net as is recommended, so perhaps my comment about truly finding a fit with a school on interview day is more applicable. Sure you knew you wanted to apply but perhaps could not fathom how much it lined up with your goals/experiences until said interview, but now you wish to have some mechanism to get that across as you sit on the WL with others who may turn that school down regardless

Yes, I understand what you were getting at, but once you're in the pool with everyone else they just don't care as much about what applicants want. At least not until they are pulling from WLs and then care about yield!

If they had any interest in what you are suggesting, they could have an ED process with different rules (i.e., allowing you to apply to other schools before you receive a decision, with the understanding you will withdraw other applications if you are accepted), and yet they don't. Binding LOIs could never be enforced, so they're a non-starter, and the fact they don't have a more reasonable ED process tells me they're not really interested.

 

[KnightDoc]

The schools I am familiar with over-accept and don't get to their WLs until on or shortly before 4/30. I'm sure there are exceptions.

I think we pretty much agree on just about everything, other than the necessity of the 4/30 CTE deadline before WL movement is done playing out in May. It's not necessary for schools with a strong IS bias where its students eagerly commit well before a deadline. It's used by a few schools to game the system and lock up a class before some students have the ability to accept another offer off a WL.

They don't need to do it, but do it because they can. It doesn't affect a ton of people, so it's insignificant in the scheme of matriculating 20,000+ students, but it's a big deal for the students who are impacted, and it's easy to fix, so it's just another example of big institutions with disproportionate power abusing it.

I'm not sure why you would want to defend it, but I'm just ranting as a future cog in the machine who will be expected to tap family resources and incur debt to fund the system who is offended by a gratuitous abuse of power. Respect for the time of administrative staff who want 3 months to complete a task instead of 2 just doesn't ring true for me (particularly when I'm certain those staff make a small fraction of the salaries enjoyed by those making the decisions), especially when we are really just talking about a handful of students on the margins rather than an entire class. Setting a later CTE deadline does not mean an entire class will wait until the last minute to make a selection!

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I think the process would be better if letters of intent were legally binding.

Schools do have interest in their alternate list candidates. But they also have interest in finalizing their respective enrollments according to their own needs. Almost all the 4/30 schools are public with strong in-state preference, and almost all of their accepted applicants have decided to void or get off the pot before the end of April.

I’m absolutely with you on the LOI. I’d be OK with whatever CTE deadlines so long as there was a way to formalize your intention to matriculate with your top choice if waitlisted.

I wonder what medical schools with later deadlines think about early CTE deadlines at other schools in their state. If state school A was “poaching” the best IS waitlist candidates from state schools B and C because of school A’s early CTE deadline, wouldn’t that incentivize B and C to also move up their CTE deadlines? I’d imagine that could get chaotic.

 

[KnightDoc]

I’m absolutely with you on the LOI. I’d be OK with whatever CTE deadlines so long as there was a way to formalize your intention to matriculate with your top choice if waitlisted.

I wonder what medical schools with later deadlines think about early CTE deadlines at other schools in their state. If state school A was “poaching” the best IS waitlist candidates from state schools B and C because of school A’s early CTE deadline, wouldn’t that incentivize B and C to also move up their CTE deadlines? I’d imagine that could get chaotic.

My fervent hope would be that the pressure works the opposite way. I really don't think schools care as much about WL candidates as we would like. I think they only care about filling the class with the best people possible, and I'd bet there is little enough difference between people in so-called priority positions on WLs for schools to move up CTE dates to avoid losing one person to a competitor over another.

On the other hand, it would be great if schools with early CTE dates lost candidates to schools with later CTE dates, assuming students had a choice. I also doubt this would have a big impact, but I'd bet this possibility, a simple desire to not make the process any more difficult on applicants than it needs to be, plus no need to game the system is why most top ranked schools do not have early CTE deadlines.

 

[KnightDoc]

Stanford/Duke 🙁

Where did you see Stanford? Is it on their web MD admissions timeline? If so, I really think that's referring to PTE, since it says "any institution" and 4/30 is the universal date to reduce to one PTE/CTE.

 

[deleted972488]

Where did you see Stanford? Is it on their web MD admissions timeline? If so, I really think that's referring to PTE, since it says "any institution" and 4/30 is the universal date to reduce to one PTE/CTE.

Oh, I was going off the thread @limeyguydr posted which compiled all the dates.

 

[KnightDoc]

Oh, I was going off the thread @limeyguydr posted which compiled all the dates.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd take it as gospel. Last year very few schools had 4/30 deadlines, and I really doubt it would have gone up so much. I think a lot of people are confusing PTE with CTE. 4/30 is the very first date CTE is even available, and it's also the date everyone is supposed to go down to one school (via PTE).

None of the top schools required CTE on 4/30 last year. Harvard was one of the earliest among the top schools, and it was the beginning of June. Most others were in July. Stanford will have absolutely no problem filling its class -- it has no need to stop someone who wants to go to Penn off the WL from doing so!

 

[TheDataKing]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd take it as gospel. Last year very few schools had 4/30 deadlines, and I really doubt it would have gone up so much. I think a lot of people are confusing PTE with CTE. 4/30 is the very first date CTE is even available, and it's also the date everyone is supposed to go down to one school (via PTE).

None of the top schools required CTE on 4/30 last year. Harvard was one of the earliest among the top schools, and it was the beginning of June. Most others were in July. Stanford will have absolutely no problem filling its class -- it has no need to stop someone who wants to go to Penn off the WL from doing so!

I went based off of this which I now realize is just the AAMC traffic guidelines - my b