Public v. Private School Discussion

[bigbad]

But with a twist.

All the public vs. private school threads I come across include tuition as a factor. Let's leave all money aside what would be the better choice for applying to medical school?

What are the benefits/drawbacks of going to say a UC vs. a small christian private school? The private school isn't too well known like many private schools so would this hurt me in terms of reputation?

Basically you wouldn't know the school unless you or a family member actually went there.

As for the UC, I'm talking about a mid to lower ranked among the UC schools.

Here's what I have so far:

• Better education at the private school, smaller class sizes make for a better LOR
• Smaller number of pre-meds which means more personal attention.
• Better learning environment?

But do these outweigh the fact that admissions may have never heard of this school? Would going to a religious school be good/bad for admissions?

Thanks guys.

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[CScull]

I would actually go to a private school for less than a public one because of financial aid and scholarship money. That's one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards them. That and I like the idea of a smaller college better than a mega school.

 

[charfdorn]

But with a twist.

All the public vs. private school threads I come across include tuition as a factor. Let's leave all money aside what would be the better choice for applying to medical school?

What are the benefits/drawbacks of going to say a UC vs. a small christian private school? The private school isn't too well known like many private schools so would this hurt me in terms of reputation?

Basically you wouldn't know the school unless you or a family member actually went there.

As for the UC, I'm talking about a mid to lower ranked among the UC schools.

Here's what I have so far:

• Better education at the private school, smaller class sizes make for a better LOR
• Smaller number of pre-meds which means more personal attention.
• Better learning environment?

But do these outweigh the fact that admissions may have never heard of this school? Would going to a religious school be good/bad for admissions?

Thanks guys.

If you can get a good GPA, this won't kill you. I graduated from a small private Christian school and a classmate of mine went straight into med school. Actually, I think she and her husband both did. You just have less room for error, GPA-wise, because the school has no reputation.

Be sure you sit in on some science classes, though. If the school is not committed to the sciences, you may find the labs somewhat lacking. It won't affect your admission chances, but it will affect how much you get to learn. I guess if that doesn't bother you, it's no big deal, but the labs were nicer at the CC that I went to than they were at the Christian school.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

Money aside, if the small private is where you comfortable, and you feel can provide you with all the opportunities and provide a better education, then of course that's the choice to go with.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'll try and summarize what I perceive are strengths/weaknesses of public and private schools:

Public schools:
PROS:

• resources, especially as they relate to research
• reputation, in two ways: it may be a well known school, and it may known as a difficult school
• many opportunities for EC stuff, especially things like travel abroad, clubs, etc.

CONS:

• "lost in the crowd" feeling due to the sheer amount of people
• generally, the "well-known" publics seem to be super competitive
• less opportunity to get to know professors due to large classes, especially in the sciences
• it can be generally difficult to "stand out"

Private schools:
PROS:

• smaller student body (I suppose this could be a bad thing)
• it's generally WAY easier to meet with faculty because they, generally, are more available

CONS:

• usually not as well-known
• expensive
• usually fewer resources financially (this may affect research)
• may be fewer opportunities for ECs

Don't take this list as truth; this has been my personal experience and what I've heard from my friends (I personally go to a private school). Don't put too much stock in reputation, by the way. If you do well and take advantage of all of the opportunities your school offers, you don't need to rely on the reputation of the school. There's a long-standing SDN debate on the value of reputation in your application; personally, I believe it has a very minor role in your application process.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

Well how do you know the school has (private small) less opportunities? Did you call them about how they are in terms of research, what types of activities they have, how strong they are in sciences, how many students apply and actually go to med school yearly.? these are all info that you need to call the school or visit the school and ask about.

I see you mentioned $, so i suppose that is a big factor, as it is with many other students on this forum, thats why its so frequent.

Question for you: Where are you going to be happier?

I would also say, dont worry so much about "getting close" with staff. You will probably be in a science class, where there is a small class size, its just your responsibility to do well. Large class of 250 students lets say for example, in a chemistry class... If you get high scores on your exams in the A range and your always asking him a question or two after class (relevant, not just to make convo) such as..Do we need to know this for the exam? Why didnt this calculation work out...he will eventually know your face. Thats all that matters, no teacher in one semester is going to really "know" you. Usually from what i have seen so far, they want a "resume" with stuff you have done, and based on that they write a recommendation thats best fitting.

 

[scotsdoc54]

I would have to say the small, private Christian college, but I am biased as I graduated from such a college. For me, the experience has been phenomenal.

I would say that for my experience, yes, there were fewer opportunities out in the open, but I didn't have any trouble finding/creating my own. Example: I applied for summer research programs at big name research hospitals in the country, and I was accepted to several of them. It wasn't the school I went to that mattered, it was my work ethic that showed through on my application.

Also, my school has small research programs that are essentially professors pet projects on the side, so it doesn't compare to a big name university. However, I was able to pick up on one that interested me, applied for a regional student research grant, and I was funded to do research for an entire year (including making enough over the summer to live and put back money). I found the opportunity and made use of it, and I had a good research experience as a result. My professors were extremely helpful in that.

And lastly, don't underestimate the value of "getting to know" your professors, particularly at a small school. Most likely, at a small school, professors you have for one course wil often teach another course that you can/must take, so there are extended opportunities for getting to know them. I even had several dinner invitations (with other chemistry students) to multiple professors homes, and many times they took us out to eat, etc. Several chemistry students even had a book study with a professor's husband once (completely unrelated to science - it was philosophy of religion!). Each of these experiences, along with just sitting and talking to my professors out of real interest, has helped me tremendously. I'm confident I will have good letters of recommendation because of it, and I have made connections through them I wouldn't have had otherwise. My peers at other, bigger schools haven't had these experiences, so I appreciate mine greatly. This is all something to consider when choosing a school if they are important to you. In the end, money and "feel" are often times the biggest indicators, but don't ignore the intangibles.

 

[NickNaylor]

I would have to say the small, private Christian college, but I am biased as I graduated from such a college. For me, the experience has been phenomenal.

I would say that for my experience, yes, there were fewer opportunities out in the open, but I didn't have any trouble finding/creating my own. Example: I applied for summer research programs at big name research hospitals in the country, and I was accepted to several of them. It wasn't the school I went to that mattered, it was my work ethic that showed through on my application.

Also, my school has small research programs that are essentially professors pet projects on the side, so it doesn't compare to a big name university. However, I was able to pick up on one that interested me, applied for a regional student research grant, and I was funded to do research for an entire year (including making enough over the summer to live and put back money). I found the opportunity and made use of it, and I had a good research experience as a result. My professors were extremely helpful in that.

And lastly, don't underestimate the value of "getting to know" your professors, particularly at a small school. Most likely, at a small school, professors you have for one course wil often teach another course that you can/must take, so there are extended opportunities for getting to know them. I even had several dinner invitations (with other chemistry students) to multiple professors homes, and many times they took us out to eat, etc. Several chemistry students even had a book study with a professor's husband once (completely unrelated to science - it was philosophy of religion!). Each of these experiences, along with just sitting and talking to my professors out of real interest, has helped me tremendously. I'm confident I will have good letters of recommendation because of it, and I have made connections through them I wouldn't have had otherwise. My peers at other, bigger schools haven't had these experiences, so I appreciate mine greatly. This is all something to consider when choosing a school if they are important to you. In the end, money and "feel" are often times the biggest indicators, but don't ignore the intangibles.

These are, by far, the major benefits of attending a smaller university. Note, though, that these things are NOT guaranteed; however, there's a much better chance that you'll get to know your professors and get involved in their activities than at a large public university. At a smaller school it's generally easier to "stand out," which means good things on a variety of levels.

 

[bigbad]

Wow, thanks scots and Cole, both of your experiences were very helpful.

Also I'm thinking that going to a liberal arts type school would also help you in admissions as it would show you are more "well rounded" than at the huge public research university. True?

Thoughts about a science program at this type of liberal arts religious school? It would be nice to have something other than science all the time and after all, science is science right?

 

[scotsdoc54]

Wow, thanks scots and Cole, both of your experiences were very helpful.

Also I'm thinking that going to a liberal arts type school would also help you in admissions as it would show you are more "well rounded" than at the huge public research university. True?

Thoughts about a science program at this type of liberal arts religious school? It would be nice to have something other than science all the time and after all, science is science right?

Well, the thing about liberal arts colleges is that they force you to be well-rounded in a way, lol. For me, there were a variety of courses I had to take to graduate, everything from fine arts, to history, to philosophy, to world cultures, to religion, to seminar classes on things like obesity, drug abuse, etc. They were good experiences for me, and I appreciated them. Obviously, for medical schools you have to do well in these courses, so you kind of de facto end up showing that you're well-rounded in coursework.

This doesn't, of course, mean that you can't be well-rounded at a bigger university. You could take several courses outside your major at a bigger, non - liberal arts school. It just might be a bit harder since they're not required and you most likely have more science requirements to fill for your major that can get in the way. LAC's do a better job at allowing students do develop with a well-rounded academic background, IMO.

The science department at my school was great and easily on par (better in my opinion) with other, larger institutions. I felt extremely comfortable with my science background approaching the MCAT and when I was doing research at an outside institution. I wouldn't worry about the quality of science education as long as its a respected, accredited LAC. The only downside is that you might not have as big a variety of science courses as you would at a larger institution, but you will definitely have all the courses you need and more.

I don't know which religiously-affiliated LAC you're looking into, but my only suggestion would be to check its religious affiliation. My school was affiliated with the Presbyterian Church USA, which is pretty darn liberal, and I'm a Roman Catholic, so neither the school or myself had any issue with the teaching of things such as evolution, etc. I would guess very few religiously-affiliated LACs have a problem with this, but it could be that some schools don't allow the teaching of evolution. Just might want to check in case, but I doubt you'll find any problem with that.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Fit is very important when looking for a college/university, whether it is large or small, it needs to meet your needs, so make sure both have a track record of placing students into good medical schools. The next thing is comfort....as some students will excel at a large university and really thrive, while other students will do better at a smaller college/university. Your undergraduate experience is as much about learning the academics as learning about yourself, so make sure you make your choice not only on name but on what that name will mean to you.

My undergraduate experience was similar to scotsdoc54's, as I was strongly encouraged to take classes outside of my majors. Being exposed to other areas really made me stretch how I learned/thought/experienced my classes. I am biased towards a small college/university experience because the 1 on 1 experiences I had with the faculty really shaped my college experience. There were some limitations with research opportunities, though there were still enough for me to find my niche.

You are about to start a great time in your life, so enjoy yourself and don't get too caught up in the classes....as they are just one part of the experience.

 

[CoolWhipp]

Like the above posters had mentioned, it is just a matter of fit if money is not a factor. Four years can feel really, really long if you don't enjoy where you are at. This seems to be the case for many students were I go to undergrad.

Good luck.

 

[bigbad]

Like the above posters had mentioned, it is just a matter of fit if money is not a factor. Four years can feel really, really long if you don't enjoy where you are at. This seems to be the case for many students were I go to undergrad.

Good luck.

After receiving a scholarship, the private school pretty much evens out with the UC. At this point I'm leaning more towards the UC but I am worried about being able to register for all the classes that I need with the huge undergrad population.

I would hate to have to waste my time with filler classes because I can't get the classes I need. Also I am worried about having a difficult time getting LORs from professors when they don't even know who I am.

I'm sure most people here went to big universities/state schools. Got any advice for me on that stuff?

 

[Bacchus]

I was one of 25 to graduate from my department this year. Of the 600 that graduated overall, about 200 were PharmD students. There is no way they knew most professors as well as I knew mine. When you get into these large universities there are a multitude of factors you need to consider. One, is class size. There are universities with classes larger than my entire university's graduating class. Also, you need to look at how resources are allocated. In terms of research, there is often much more competition at large universities to get spots in labs that are meaningful. At my university you ask a professor, he or she more than likely says yes, you do research. Even for the fun things large universities may make it harder. You want a treadmill, elliptical, stairclimber? Well, does the gym have enough machines for people during the time you want to exercise? Being at a small university got me on a personal level with professional academic advising, the dean of my college, student life, and admissions. These networking opportunities were awesome. You just more than likely won't get this at large universities.

If the small, private Christian college is a good fit for you, go. You need to do well to get into medical school. Going to UCLA over Messiah College (for example) is not going to help you with a craptastic GPA. When I applied to college I applied to three schools, two of which I would have attended. When I got into USP, I immediately called PSU and said, "No thanks." Looking back, I do have a money regret, but the other things I gained far outweigh it.

 

[Tots]

I go to UCI and while there are sometimes upwards of 350+ people in some of the intro classes, it really is not hard to talk to professors in office hours and get "personal" attention.

Also there are so many opportunities that come with a large campus that I can do so many different things, as a freshman I started doing epidemiology research and worked very closely with graduate students and fellows, though not so much my PI.

I have never had a problem working out, almost always every kind of machine open and I have worked out next to my Chem professor and multiple TAs (odd seeing them work out). Not sure about other UC gyms but Davis and SD have similar sized gyms.

In terms of getting classes I need I have never had a problem. Had some(but not really) trouble getting classes I wanted though. I heard at UCI getting into upper-division labs(only bio labs at the school) is somewhat troublesome though...but I am not there yet.


HOWEVER, if you really would like to go to the smaller college and are just worried if it would "look" better because of reputation then by all means go to the small private university. Go where you will fit, be comfortable, and enjoy your college experience.

Good Luck

 

[FuturaDocta]

From my experience, private schools have ungodly high amounts of tuition, but they also give a load of scholarships to make up for it (that's assuming you did well in high school). I know it is money aside, but that is definitely a pro!

Some pros of a private school is sometimes their reputation can help (if they are known to be hard, and you do well, the meds schools consider that).

Since the student body is generally small, the faculty-student relationships are usually closer and almost everyone knows who you are (this is a pro for me ).

Since most professors know who you are, research opportunities come much easier and you know if you like the professor in advance.

Professors help you hands on in labs, (not just Master degree or TA students). You can also ask your professors all these questions that only they may know given their experience. Not to mention, office hours are almost always available (talk about a stellar tutor).
____________

Now, if you like the big student body, then go for public.
There is also still research opportunities, but keep in mind, there may be more competition (depending on how many people are pre-med/pre-grad).

Basically, going to a private vs. a public is the difference between going to a big city vs. a small town. It all depends on what you are more comfortable living for the next four years.

It doesn't matter where you go really, just get a great GPA and great score on the MCAT.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think this thread has some great information, so I updated the thread title for people who do a search about picking out the right school for them.

 

[Flank Pain]

I think it is important to go to a school people have heard of, be it for their football team or because they are a stanford/yale type. I think the only major pitfall in picking a college is going to a small liberal arts type college. Also, don't major in liberal arts, i think this is a waste of time and that is what smaller colleges are good at, go to a real school and take a real major, that way if you don't get into med school you might still be able to get a real job.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think it is important to go to a school people have heard of, be it for their football team or because they are a stanford/yale type. I think the only major pitfall in picking a college is going to a small liberal arts type college. Also, don't major in liberal arts, i think this is a waste of time and that is what smaller colleges are good at, go to a real school and take a real major, that way if you don't get into med school you might still be able to get a real job.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not accurate. Some of the best applicants to medical school (and graduate school) have well-rounded educations and benefited from the personalized experience of attending a smaller college.

My first career involved corporate consulting, and I managed multi-million dollar portfolios and project teams. Part of my job was to evaluate talent, and some of the best hires came from top liberal arts colleges. Obviously it varies on your job and the requirements, but some of the best and brightest students forego large universities for a more personalized education (myself include).

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Many people comment on the money issue, however private colleges, often wind up being cheaper for several reasons. The first reason is that private colleges are more likely to offer scholarships. My state school UConn, cost as much as the private institution I attend. So don't rule out privates based on cost, they are likely to offer a cushy financial aid package.
In private schools there is often times more oppurtunity to work one-on-one with faculty. I started doing research my first semester, which is difficult to do in a large state university. However small LAS, are less likely to offer research in basic sciences or more advanced research i.e. more capital intensive.
Private schools are a varied bunch, NYU and Amherst are both private and are much more dissimilar than UCLA and NYU. So decisions must be made on a case by case basis.

 

[MilkmanAl]

But the advantages of smaller colleges are you will get to know your professors better and they will remember you and write better LORs for you. You will know the people who go to school with you better because you are not a single fish in a big wide ocean but a fish in a smaller pond so to speak. You will get more one on one attention in other words.

I disagree. To get a good letter, you're going to have to interact with the professor on your own time, regardless of how big or small the class is.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I disagree. To get a good letter, you're going to have to interact with the professor on your own time, regardless of how big or small the class is.

Agreed, other than exam weeks office hours are usually pretty barren.

 

[MilkmanAl]

True but a lot of people are not the kind of person to go to office hours just for chit chat esp. if they don't really have questions on the material for professors. so I would argue that in truth it really is not the same as being in a smaller class size where the professors really see how you interact one on one.

Wait...the professors get to know how you interact one-on-one by not interacting with you one-on-one? I'm not sure I follow.

I'm not saying you should start going to office hours at the beginning of the year, plop yourself down on whatever seating implement might be available, and start making small talk. Go up to them after class and ask about something that interested you. You know, be sociable. It's not rocket science. Get your foot in the door, and then you can go hang out during office hours (if you want) once the prof knows you.

You can probably get a good lor by interviewing with a professor telling them about yourselves. But truth is that doesn't necessarily mean they know you well.

A positive letter from someone who does not know you is of low utility, at best. It will likely just be ignored and will neither support nor harm your case. You'll have checked off that box for required LOR's, but it won't have done you much good. You'll need those letters to say something substantive about you for them to matter beyond fulfilling a requirement.

I should note that the professors you want to be getting LOR's from - those who taught your upper-level courses - are going to be leading small classes anyway, so this discussion is fairly moot.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Again you missed the point of my post.

I mean, I did say I didn't follow what you were getting at...

Small group interactions in small classes where professors can get to know you and see how you work in classes or with other students is more useful then office hours or making random chit chat after class when most professors are trying to get out of the classroom in time for the next class to start or in time for making meetings or research stuff. That's my point.

Okay, then I disagree with your point on several levels. Attending a small school with small classes does not guarantee that you'll be interacting with other students while in class. It also does not necessarily mean that your professor will get a feel for your work habits or ethic or any other measure useful in rec letters.. I've had plenty of small classes in which the professor lectured then dismissed us without any interaction with the students beyond basic questions.

I don't see the point in wasting time in office hours just for the sake of chit chatting when these professors have more important things to do and don't like that as i saw at my old university first hand.

Again, I don't suggest trying to waste their time with small talk. You go to them with something they've taught you and you're interested in and hash it out. Maybe that means getting more information on that topic. Maybe it means starting up a research project with that professor. Maybe it just means getting a brief clarification then heading on your way. If you can't find anything in that professor's class that interests you, you're better off getting a rec from someone else.

Most often they'd ask use to write our own letter and they'd revise it or they'd ask us to sit for a 15 minute interview to 30 minute interview and ask for a packet with our personal statement, resume, and that sort of stuff.

Right, and the ones who don't have you write your own letter will be able to write you a better rec if they know you personally, interview or not.

My letters were quite strong doing it that way last year from what USF Adcom told me when they told me that was the least of my issues as to why I didn't get in. So that's not really true what you are saying.

I don't doubt that. However, just about everyone's letters are very positive. What sets the great letters apart from "good" (read: neutral scrap heap) ones that adcoms can actually use to differentiate you from any other candidate is specifics regarding your drive, motivation, work ethic, leadership, curiosity, etc. A letter that looks "okay" (i.e. anywhere from lukewarm on down) is grounds for throwing out your app entirely since everyone else has recs that gush about their academic abilities and altruism and whatnot. As always, the devil is in the details. Only the personal touch is going to bring out the things that really matter about you as an applicant.

And I think a smaller class size with professors seeing how you really are is more effective this kissing butt to get a letter.

Is it safe to assume that you rarely or never spoke with any of your LOR writers outside of class, then? That is a strategy I absolutely would not recommend to anyone, ever. Also, see my previous comment regarding class sizes.

 

[JJMrK]

But with a twist.

All the public vs. private school threads I come across include tuition as a factor. Let's leave all money aside what would be the better choice for applying to medical school?

What are the benefits/drawbacks of going to say a UC vs. a small christian private school? The private school isn't too well known like many private schools so would this hurt me in terms of reputation?

Basically you wouldn't know the school unless you or a family member actually went there.

As for the UC, I'm talking about a mid to lower ranked among the UC schools.

Here's what I have so far:

• Better education at the private school, smaller class sizes make for a better LOR
• Smaller number of pre-meds which means more personal attention.
• Better learning environment?

But do these outweigh the fact that admissions may have never heard of this school? Would going to a religious school be good/bad for admissions?

Thanks guys.

Basic science research might be next to impossible to get involved with at the small school you're describing. While that's probably not a good enough reason in and of itself not to attend, keep in mind that research is becoming increasingly important in the med school admissions process. Any UC you go to will give you tons of opportunities to do research, go to conferences/give presentations, and get published.

I go to a big school. The opportunity to do research has been the best part of that.

A few negatives:
- Some huge classes. Not really a negative for me, but some might not like it.
- Not as much money to put into buildings/equipment. (This doesn't include research equipment, which is usually paid for by grants.) I'm talking about a few older buildings you occasionally have to deal with.

I'm having trouble thinking of anything else at the moment.

More positives:
- Tons of people to meet/hang out with. You also get all the perks of going to a big school: a nice/big gym, sports teams to watch, tons of things to do, etc.
- One of the most important: It's likely going to be WAY cheaper.