Quality of recent residents at my program

[Strudel]

I completed my pgy1 residency at a bigger academic center 10 years ago. Residency was tough but rewarding because it opened up career opportunities after. I was scared of my preceprors and worked my butt off which included 12+hr ICU rotations and Internal Medicine days and staffing every other weekend. The expectation was that residents would be able to manage pk dosing and heparin dosing and order entry on weekends. Staffing also included holidays.
3 years ago, i moved closer to family and accepted a job in an Inpatient Pharmacy department. I'm not really involved in that residency program (and have no ambition to) but get to observe residents' interaction with preceptors over the past years. Over these years, the quality of residents has been quite shocking. I have consistently observed some behaviors such as residents refusing to pick up the phone or helping our technicians after they complained to their rpd they want to do "real pharmacist activities", confidently giving wrong answers to doctors without double checking the answer, calling off frequently without making up the hours, complaining to techs and other pharmacy staff about their staffing requirements, participating in pharmacy "gossip", not looking up very basic information before asking their respective preceptor. They leave work unfinished and pass it on at the end of their 8 hr shift right on the dot. More than half of this yr's class didn't pass the board exam. They also started their research project very late and are asking to use staffing days for data collection. Last week, I asked a resident to follow up on a vanco and was shocked, she had no idea how to dose vanco even though we have an established protocol. I've noticed that the assigned preceptors gave up and stopped caring after "they've been burnt by bad residents year after year after year" despite expressing their concerns to the RPD.

My question is if this is just a specific facility type of pgy1 drop in quality or have other pharmacists noticed a change in pgy1 attitude and quality too over recent years?

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[Rockinacoustic]

It's the quality of student who graduates these days

 

[pinkpharmd]

I noticed the quality of residents really declined in the last five years. Same issues like you said not staffing, letting that phone ring forever, never staying late even for a few minutes to clean up, zero time management skills, zero compassion. But pharmacy is a small world so I don't judge and teach. You never know if these residents will one day be your future employer!

 

[BC_89]

That is disappointing...

I remember by my second week of my internal general medicine rotation (APPE rotation), I was doing all the vanco and warfarin dosing as part of my list of many tasks. The phone was just something I always had to answer (thanks to clinical pharmacology & UpToDate I could return responses quicker over time but other times...I just didn't know).

I have a long way to go in my progression (with my first PGY1 interview this Friday), but I've also gotten the vibe in some of my areas that the residents are somewhat looked down upon or pushed aside.

I'd like to think my professionalism is in check when it comes to learning, but I am always concerned that my foundational knowledge may not be where it needs to be. Have expectations of residents just been lowered every year with a simultaneous need to just get cheap staffing every year? This would certainly (and unfortunately) account for the decline over the years...

Really makes one wonder if and where a residency may be worth it.

 

[lord999]

The selection committee's fault as well. Unless you're a new program, it's your program's own fault for finding these students repeatedly. Perhaps the commitee needs to be changed.

 

[Gombrich12]

This reddit thread is about residencies complaining that they are not getting as many applicants as they did last year. With pharmacy classes shrinking and residencies growing there is going to have to be a better form of gatekeeping or quality control on residencies.

 

[Strudel]

The selection committee's fault as well. Unless you're a new program, it's your program's own fault for finding these students repeatedly. Perhaps the commitee needs to be changed.

Has anyone ever heard of a residency program actually losing accreditation?

 

[Dred Pirate]

I have noticed this as well - maybe not to the extreme you say thou (not just residents, but with any new younger hires)- but I ask myself - is what I am seeing is a decline in quality? or is it me becoming a grumpy old man and going through the cycle that every generation thinks those that came after them are lazy?

I think it is multi-factorial.
1. My honest opinion is that the quality of graduates has gone down over the years because admission standards have gone down. We still get record number of applicants for our PGY-1 every year - I think this year we had 140 for 4 positions.
2. We are in the "instant gratification" time period where people don't think they have to put the sweat equity into things.
3. Pharmacy schools keep selling these unicorn jobs to their grads, and most don't realize 95% of them won't ever get one.

 

[BC_89]

This reddit thread is about residencies complaining that they are not getting as many applicants as they did last year. With pharmacy classes shrinking and residencies growing there is going to have to be a better form of gatekeeping or quality control on residencies.

PhORCAS also had a glitch of which a majority of applicants did not have their information sent out to all of their selected programs (I actually got an email from one of the sites elaborating what PhORCAS had told them). The last 24 hours should've resolved the issue to match everyone's application status of being complete (although a student wouldn't know - their application status already says complete and submitted).

Even if resolved, I'd still be interested what the numbers really reflect.

 

[lord999]

I have noticed this as well - maybe not to the extreme you say thou (not just residents, but with any new younger hires)- but I ask myself - is what I am seeing is a decline in quality? or is it me becoming a grumpy old man and going through the cycle that every generation thinks those that came after them are lazy?

I think it is multi-factorial.
1. My honest opinion is that the quality of graduates has gone down over the years because admission standards have gone down. We still get record number of applicants for our PGY-1 every year - I think this year we had 140 for 4 positions.
2. We are in the "instant gratification" time period where people don't think they have to put the sweat equity into things.
3. Pharmacy schools keep selling these unicorn jobs to their grads, and most don't realize 95% of them won't ever get one.

Pretty much. The residency/fellowship that I personally oversee as an RPD has an explicit requirement of 2080 hours of PAID practice time before application from either the internship or postgraduate with one of the recommendations required from the nonschool experience, and I've never had a problem with the behavior as that weeds out most of the losers.

It basically is the modern incarnation of the post BS Pharmacy process where you got 500 from school but 1000 from nonschool (preferably paid) experiences before sitting for the Boards. I've expressed the opinion which some programs have or are considering that the prospective applicant have 6 months to a year of experience in a position before applying for residency. I expect the uniformed services to lead the way with that with GPO appointments rather than direct to residency ones in the near future.

 

[297point1]

I ask myself - is what I am seeing is a decline in quality? or is it me becoming a grumpy old man and going through the cycle that every generation thinks those that came after them are lazy?

Yes.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Yes.

to both - haha

 

[Dred Pirate]

Pretty much. The residency/fellowship that I personally oversee as an RPD has an explicit requirement of 2080 hours of PAID practice time before application from either the internship or postgraduate with one of the recommendations required from the nonschool experience, and I've never had a problem with the behavior as that weeds out most of the losers.

It basically is the modern incarnation of the post BS Pharmacy process where you got 500 from school but 1000 from nonschool (preferably paid) experiences before sitting for the Boards. I've expressed the opinion which some programs have or are considering that the prospective applicant have 6 months to a year of experience in a position before applying for residency. I expect the uniformed services to lead the way with that with GPO appointments rather than direct to residency ones in the near future.

I personally love this - we give "points" on our scoring tool the more you work, but do not have a specific requirement (other than you have had to had some sort of job in your life). I have always been of the "lets get people who have work experience" camp vs other seem to put more credence into those that have club leadership, research, etc. I am biased because I worked full time during pharmacy school, but I love putting in the minimum paid hours as I think that would weed out a lot of the people who simply don't know how to have a job.

 

[Dred Pirate]

PhORCAS also had a glitch of which a majority of applicants did not have their information sent out to all of their selected programs (I actually got an email from one of the sites elaborating what PhORCAS had told them). The last 24 hours should've resolved the issue to match everyone's application status of being complete (although a student wouldn't know - their application status already says complete and submitted).

Even if resolved, I'd still be interested what the numbers really reflect.

we had record numbers, and the glitch (as far as we know) only delayed one candidate - which we went back and evaluated prior to sending out invites.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

I've reviewed applicants as a preceptor for both a small community teaching hospital, and a larger academic-affiliated health system.

I found that the smaller site focused more on work experience, and situational awareness/interpersonal communications - i.e. is this someone I can work with in central on a busy Saturday night. The academic site focuses less on work experience and interpersonal skills, more on research, teaching, publications... "flair" if you will.

Students are unfortunately sold on the idea that being a "clinical pharmacist" is attending rounds and hiding in your office in the afternoon doing academic stuff. The problem is their faculty generally do this (on the school's budget) and are so far removed from the grind of what being a health-system pharmacist in the remaining 98% of hospitals nationwide truly is.

 

[Seriously Serious]

I completed my pgy1 residency at a bigger academic center 10 years ago. Residency was tough but rewarding because it opened up career opportunities after. I was scared of my preceprors and worked my butt off which included 12+hr ICU rotations and Internal Medicine days and staffing every other weekend. The expectation was that residents would be able to manage pk dosing and heparin dosing and order entry on weekends. Staffing also included holidays.
3 years ago, i moved closer to family and accepted a job in an Inpatient Pharmacy department. I'm not really involved in that residency program (and have no ambition to) but get to observe residents' interaction with preceptors over the past years. Over these years, the quality of residents has been quite shocking. I have consistently observed some behaviors such as residents refusing to pick up the phone or helping our technicians after they complained to their rpd they want to do "real pharmacist activities", confidently giving wrong answers to doctors without double checking the answer, calling off frequently without making up the hours, complaining to techs and other pharmacy staff about their staffing requirements, participating in pharmacy "gossip", not looking up very basic information before asking their respective preceptor. They leave work unfinished and pass it on at the end of their 8 hr shift right on the dot. More than half of this yr's class didn't pass the board exam. They also started their research project very late and are asking to use staffing days for data collection. Last week, I asked a resident to follow up on a vanco and was shocked, she had no idea how to dose vanco even though we have an established protocol. I've noticed that the assigned preceptors gave up and stopped caring after "they've been burnt by bad residents year after year after year" despite expressing their concerns to the RPD.

My question is if this is just a specific facility type of pgy1 drop in quality or have other pharmacists noticed a change in pgy1 attitude and quality too over recent years?

Has the quality of new grads gone down? certainly. But I will also argue that not all residency programs are the same, not even close.

I would also argue that the egos of many preceptors has grown too. The 'judgey' and condescending type and less of the 'let's review the basics' type. I would be on clinical rounds with medical residents and the attending would patiently explain a basic concept (e.g. insulin dosing) to the team, even though everyone at least had a strong understanding of the concept given their educational background. I would get back handed and insulted by my preceptors in the ICU if I didn't know all of the pros/cons of differing paralytics at the start of the rotation.

 

[gwarm01]

Our residents were pretty bad even 10 years ago, but I was definitely not working for one of the top teaching universities in the region. People come to Miami to party, not to learn.

 

[right500]

Pretty much. The residency/fellowship that I personally oversee as an RPD has an explicit requirement of 2080 hours of PAID practice time before application from either the internship or postgraduate with one of the recommendations required from the nonschool experience, and I've never had a problem with the behavior as that weeds out most of the losers.

It basically is the modern incarnation of the post BS Pharmacy process where you got 500 from school but 1000 from nonschool (preferably paid) experiences before sitting for the Boards. I've expressed the opinion which some programs have or are considering that the prospective applicant have 6 months to a year of experience in a position before applying for residency. I expect the uniformed services to lead the way with that with GPO appointments rather than direct to residency ones in the near future.

The Army already requires at least one duty station working the bench before residency. I am assuming GPO is "GMO" with medical switched for pharmacy. I don't know why someone would do a residency in the Army when we don't do clinical work after Captain. I would take a different broadening assignment than residency unless I had my heart set on ETSing to a clinical job on the outside after the ADSO. But by that point, the golden handcuffs are on for a lot of people.

I know Yale has residency slots for people who have worked in retail for a while. That is an interesting idea and gives the retail folks a way to transition to hospitals. When someone is used to the chains, I would expect residency is a breeze.

 

[JustFillIt]

Has the quality of new grads gone down? certainly. But I will also argue that not all residency programs are the same, not even close.

I would also argue that the egos of many preceptors has grown too. The 'judgey' and condescending type and less of the 'let's review the basics' type. I would be on clinical rounds with medical residents and the attending would patiently explain a basic concept (e.g. insulin dosing) to the team, even though everyone at least had a strong understanding of the concept given their educational background. I would get back handed and insulted by my preceptors in the ICU if I didn't know all of the pros/cons of differing paralytics at the start of the rotation.

Me during rounds: “what’s a paralytic?”

I appreciate what you say about how rotations are not the same anymore as well. I went to a retail pharmacy the other day to get one of my kids his booster and the person who handled me at intake, billed my insurance, and administered the shot had “PharmD” on their tag. Naturally I knew several people that worked in that pharmacy and we started talking. I found out that she was a “resident” completing a “2 year residency” at this retail pharmacy.

I maintained my composure - but I wanted to let my jaw drop and just say, “nah - you got scammed into working the line for half the pay and no beneficial experience whatsoever.” Anyways, I couldn’t help but to think that this was just pathetic. She was an intern all over again. Her “residency” was no different than when I was a student pharmacist in a retail pharmacy many years ago.

 

[projektreverb]

Me during rounds: “what’s a paralytic?”

I appreciate what you say about how rotations are not the same anymore as well. I went to a retail pharmacy the other day to get one of my kids his booster and the person who handled me at intake, billed my insurance, and administered the shot had “PharmD” on their tag. Naturally I knew several people that worked in that pharmacy and we started talking. I found out that she was a “resident” completing a “2 year residency” at this retail pharmacy.

I maintained my composure - but I wanted to let my jaw drop and just say, “nah - you got scammed into working the line for half the pay and no beneficial experience whatsoever.” Anyways, I couldn’t help but to think that this was just pathetic. She was an intern all over again. Her “residency” was no different than when I was a student pharmacist in a retail pharmacy many years ago.

I’ve never understood community residencies out of chains.

 

[Sabril]

I have consistently observed some behaviors such as residents refusing to pick up the phone or helping our technicians after they complained to their rpd they want to do "real pharmacist activities", confidently giving wrong answers to doctors without double checking the answer, calling off frequently without making up the hours, complaining to techs and other pharmacy staff about their staffing requirements, participating in pharmacy "gossip", not looking up very basic information before asking their respective preceptor. They leave work unfinished and pass it on at the end of their 8 hr shift right on the dot.

Not a hospital pharmacist but this description sounds just like some of the "seasoned" hospital pharmacists that I remember from rotations. These resident dudes don't just pick up these habits out of thin air.

 

[Seriously Serious]

Me during rounds: “what’s a paralytic?”

I appreciate what you say about how rotations are not the same anymore as well. I went to a retail pharmacy the other day to get one of my kids his booster and the person who handled me at intake, billed my insurance, and administered the shot had “PharmD” on their tag. Naturally I knew several people that worked in that pharmacy and we started talking. I found out that she was a “resident” completing a “2 year residency” at this retail pharmacy.

I maintained my composure - but I wanted to let my jaw drop and just say, “nah - you got scammed into working the line for half the pay and no beneficial experience whatsoever.” Anyways, I couldn’t help but to think that this was just pathetic. She was an intern all over again. Her “residency” was no different than when I was a student pharmacist in a retail pharmacy many years ago.

I agree about retail residencies... just the biggest scams. However, if you're an opportunist and you're the first retail resident in a new program with WAGs or CVS, there is a strong possibility there is a management position waiting for you at the end of the program. These newer programs always need a poster child for marketing.

I know a retail resident who did a 1-yr residency with WAGs and is now the manager at one of their specialty pharmacies in a desirable city. Would I want to be their 4th or 5th or nth resident in that program? Hell no.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

I’ve never understood community residencies out of chains.

If there's suckers dumb enough to enroll in a pharmd program the past few years, they might as well be dumb enough to do a retail "residency"

 

[JustFillIt]

If there's suckers dumb enough to enroll in a pharmd program the past few years, they might as well be dumb enough to do a retail "residency"

You’re right - at this point I have become very suspicious of any students which have enrolled in a PharmD program any time after 2016. In my opinion, it is right around 2016 that we lost total control of our profession. It started happening before this, but that was the break point in my estimation.

I try not to apply this label to all new graduates - but seriously, I just can’t wrap my head around the “why” of pharmacy at this point. It just makes zero sense, unless your able to self pay and have connections of some sort. Otherwise, to me, it just shows a strong lack of judgement.

 

[letsquitpharm]

I am not in clinical pharmacy, but for industry fellowships, I actually observed the opposite: the quality of fellows have gone up substantially. Last year, we had a PharmD/PhD fellow...

 

[Dred Pirate]

I am not in clinical pharmacy, but for industry fellowships, I actually observed the opposite: the quality of fellows have gone up substantially. Last year, we had a PharmD/PhD fellow...

maybe because the top students know what a crap storm the job market is and they are leaning towards industry?

 

[samven582]

maybe because the top students know what a crap storm the job market is and they are leaning towards industry?

that and clinical pharmacy is a dead end career. I’m surprised you haven’t jumped shipped with your experience.

 

[Dred Pirate]

that and clinical pharmacy is a dead end career. I’m surprised you haven’t jumped shipped with your experience.

I had the opportunity a few years ago, but honestly right now - I am making really good money for my area, have great relationships with the docs I work with, for me is a low stress (even thou the environment is high stress-but I can do a code in my sleep at this point), 35 hours a week with a 5 minute door to door commute. The industry jobs generally require lots of travel, and I have young children. And honestly, I am not a "cold call" type of person. The one opportunity I had had a ridiculously large territory. I like my job, so as long as there are no major changes, I will continue to punch the clock and do my job

 

[StockPharmD2020]

I had the opportunity a few years ago, but honestly right now - I am making really good money for my area, have great relationships with the docs I work with, for me is a low stress (even thou the environment is high stress-but I can do a code in my sleep at this point), 35 hours a week with a 5 minute door to door commute. The industry jobs generally require lots of travel, and I have young children. And honestly, I am not a "cold call" type of person. The one opportunity I had had a ridiculously large territory. I like my job, so as long as there are no major changes, I will continue to punch the clock and do my job

Your reasons are basically mine minus kids. I made 179k last year with minimal OT.
10 min commute. Moderate easy job with good coworkers.

There are lots of fringe benefits of being a MSL but dealing with tons of MD i don't know, traveling all the time.... just not worth it for an extra 20-50k

 

[letsquitpharm]

Your reasons are basically mine minus kids. I made 179k last year with minimal OT.
10 min commute. Moderate easy job with good coworkers.

There are lots of fringe benefits of being a MSL but dealing with tons of MD i don't know, traveling all the time.... just not worth it for an extra 20-50k

Industry jobs have progressively higher ceilings tho, and there are plenty of opportunities outside of MSL/med affairs. 2 years out of pharmacy school, I am making 230k WFH/potentially hybrid post-covid, and I am not at assoc. director/director level yet. My direct report, who is an assoc. director, is 6 years elder and has 3-4 yrs more experience than me, and he's making solid 300k+ per year, without any travel or OT. We offer comprehensive and competitive benefits, including 20 PTO + 5 sick days per year.

If you are really good, and can make it to the director level in medical affairs after a few yrs of MSL, you can essentially make MD salary without traveling, or ever worrying about pharmacy's stress and grind. Plus, you will always be recruited for higher pay as you accumulate more years of experience, unlike pharmacy.

 

[StockPharmD2020]

Industry jobs have progressively higher ceilings tho, and there are plenty of opportunities outside of MSL/med affairs. 2 years out of pharmacy school, I am making 230k WFH/hybrid, and I am not at assoc. director/director level yet. My direct report, who is an assoc. director, is 6 years elder and has 3-4 yrs more experience than me, and he's making solid 300k+ per year, without any travel or OT. We offer comprehensive and competitive benefits, including 20 PTO + 5 sick days per year.

If you are really good, and can make it to the director level in medical affairs after a few of MSL, you can essentially make MD salary without traveling, or ever worrying about pharmacy's stress and grind. Plus, you will always be recruited for higher pay as you accumulate more years of experience, unlike pharmacy.

What's your title? That's interesting for me.

 

[letsquitpharm]

What's your title? That's interesting for me.

Principal scientist, quantitative clinical pharmacology.
Within my company's hierarchy, I am equivalent to sr. manager level in other departments, and assoc. director will be my next promotion.

We also offer free lunches, usually take-out orders from nearby restaurants and company discounts for a variety of other stuff.

 

[samven582]

Industry jobs have progressively higher ceilings tho, and there are plenty of opportunities outside of MSL/med affairs. 2 years out of pharmacy school, I am making 230k WFH/potentially hybrid post-covid, and I am not at assoc. director/director level yet. My direct report, who is an assoc. director, is 6 years elder and has 3-4 yrs more experience than me, and he's making solid 300k+ per year, without any travel or OT. We offer comprehensive and competitive benefits, including 20 PTO + 5 sick days per year.

If you are really good, and can make it to the director level in medical affairs after a few yrs of MSL, you can essentially make MD salary without traveling, or ever worrying about pharmacy's stress and grind. Plus, you will always be recruited for higher pay as you accumulate more years of experience, unlike pharmacy.

Is this a good reason to jump into pharma?

 

[StockPharmD2020]

Principal scientist, quantitative clinical pharmacology.
Within my company's hierarchy, I am equivalent to sr. manager level in other departments, and assoc. director will be my next promotion.

We also offer free lunches, usually take-out orders from nearby restaurants and company discounts for a variety of other stuff.

Fellowship?

 

[letsquitpharm]

Fellowship?

Nope, I didn't do one, and I didn't apply to one either. I went straight to entry-level jobs postgrad.

I am also expecting to graduate with a master's in computer science this December, and I think I am out-earning quite a lot of my friends who actually did PharmD fellowships because of that and shortage of qualified clinical pharmacologists/pharmacometricians on the market.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Is this a good reason to jump into pharma?

It depends. If you would like to trade stability (I assume clinical pharmacists can never be fired) for higher comp and upward potential, industry is clearly the better option. But personally I have not seen any industry veterans with a significant employment gap on their resume.

Since last year, biotech total comp has somewhat caught up with tech. It might still be a bit lower than FAANG, but it's getting comparable to 2nd/3rd tier big tech though, and the workload and stress is much lower. If the trend continues, I will have to rethink whether a full transition to tech is worth it in the long term.

 

[BidingMyTime]

It's the quality of student who graduates these days

Sad, but true.

When I graduated (feels like 100) years ago with my BS, pre-internet, even though I worked through my school years, I was pretty naive about some things and looking back even unprofessional in some areas. So, I am sympathetic to people who came from backgrounds, where they didn't learn all the social graces they should have. However, I was always observing around me, and I corrected mistakes I was making once I was aware of them. I never acted like a "know-it-all", and probably 2nd guessed myself more than I needed to. But I see a difference with many graduates today, who do assume they are correct, and if everyone else is doing something different, it is everyone else who is doing something wrong, who resist correction, who don't at least try to improve. And there is less excuse for people today, when everything is easily searchable on the internet, so people can look up stuff they have little to no experience with (ie how to do a job interview, proper work etiquette on a new prefessional job, phone etiquette, expected conduct on clerkship/residency, etc.)

I have a lot of patience to teach people who are willing to learn, even if they are slow learners, but I don't have patience for those who could care less about learning. And the fact that half of OP's residences can't even pass their exam, with the abundance of material on-line available, that shows an unwillingness to learn. (I assume OP is referring to the NAPLEX, and not an actual board certification exam)

 

[StockPharmD2020]

Nope, I didn't do one, and I didn't apply to one either. I went straight to entry-level jobs postgrad.

I am also expecting to graduate with a master's in computer science this December, and I think I am out-earning quite a lot of my friends who actually did PharmD fellowships because of that and shortage of qualified clinical pharmacologists/pharmacometricians on the market.

Interesting. What's an entry level type job or two I could put a search out for? I want do something different if more chill and pays nice

 

[letsquitpharm]

Interesting. What's an entry level type job or two I could put a search out for? I want do something different if more chill and pays nice

some went for regulatory affairs, while other go for clinical research, clinical dev/op. they are all viable options

 

[AC3_PharmD]

From what I've heard through the interview process the pandemic has really done a number on a lot of students looking at residencies. I think in terms of expenses it has hurt but also in terms of IPPE's and APPE's. The complaint I've been hearing is that where previously students at least knew the basics that's been really lacking this cycle. I can only guess that part of it is a lack of in-person clinical participation throughout school but especially during 4th year.

I finished my residency program a few years ago and was still engaging in high level learning (ICU 12+ hour days, PK dosing, professionalism, etc.). I don't really have any doubts that some residency programs are still producing high level clinical learners and that's coming from an academic medical center. However, I did go work at a community hospital and I actually saw the complete opposite in terms of learning. And some of the things I was hearing from some of these residents (and clinical pharmacists) was so embarrassingly wrong it was acutely painful and actually dangerous. I think it just depends honestly.

 

[Deja]

Nope, I didn't do one, and I didn't apply to one either. I went straight to entry-level jobs postgrad.

I am also expecting to graduate with a master's in computer science this December, and I think I am out-earning quite a lot of my friends who actually did PharmD fellowships because of that and shortage of qualified clinical pharmacologists/pharmacometricians on the market.

bet you had some sort of experience before or during pharm school
no way you got those jobs being a 26-year-old fresh grad without work experience

 

[letsquitpharm]

bet you had some sort of experience before or during pharm school
no way you got those jobs being a 26-year-old fresh grad without work experience

I didn't do any industrial internship or APPE rotations (they were too competitive to get), and the only relevant exp leading to my job was I did some academic research and a ton of self-teaching/coding during pharm school.

 

[Deja]

I didn't do any industrial internship or APPE rotations (they were too competitive to get), and the only relevant exp leading to my job was I did some academic research and a ton of self-teaching/coding during pharm school.

you don't need industrial internships to have relevant experience... I'd have to look at your resume to see exactly what you did lol

 

[letsquitpharm]

you don't need industrial internships to have relevant experience... I'd have to look at your resume to see exactly what you did lol

One classmate who graduated from my MSCS program just landed a job as associate director, data & analytics lead at Merck. She previously spent two years at EY as analytics consultant, after a bachelor...

There are tons of data science openings everywhere within pharma and biotech. You can look them up on linkedIn and match salary info on glassdoor. 200k total comp isn't outrageous at all when you have the right credentials and skillset.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Has the quality of new grads gone down? certainly. But I will also argue that not all residency programs are the same, not even close.

I would also argue that the egos of many preceptors has grown too. The 'judgey' and condescending type and less of the 'let's review the basics' type. I would be on clinical rounds with medical residents and the attending would patiently explain a basic concept (e.g. insulin dosing) to the team, even though everyone at least had a strong understanding of the concept given their educational background. I would get back handed and insulted by my preceptors in the ICU if I didn't know all of the pros/cons of differing paralytics at the start of the rotation.

I encountered this with a guy who graduated 3 years before i did. He became a preceptor and his Napoleon syndrome came alive.

I think they want to emulate what they believe the medical school experience must be like so they Gordon Ramsay it up

 

[Dred Pirate]

I encountered this with a guy who graduated 3 years before i did. He became a preceptor and his Napoleon syndrome came alive.

I think they want to emulate what they believe the medical school experience must be like so they Gordon Ramsay it up

I shared this with our team - I think it really shows how being the "hard preceptor" does more harm than good, You can have high expectations, but a great preceptor actually teaches- doesn't just expect people to already know everything and then mock them when they don't

The Myth of the Tough Preceptor — The Overrun

I had a reputation as a tough preceptor. I was the one that people either sought out because they wanted the challenge; or the one that they avoided. I thought I held students to a high standard, thought I was tough but fair, and thought that any student of mine who passed through my finishing schoo

www.overrunproductions.com