Quality of Undergrad Institution?

[danzgymn86]

How much does this matter? I mean, obviously a 3.5 from Harvard is more impressive than a 4.0 from random-school-USA. But how much does it matter? I go to a pretty good undergrad (semi-selective... 51% of 18,000 applicants, I believe) with high research productivity. However, I know that there are some very good schools that are classified as having not very good research productivity. How much does all of this matter in grad school selections?

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[Sorg1123]

As long as your grades are good and you took somewhat difficult classes along the way I wouldn't worry about it. That is, you shouldn't let this factor into you program search.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think there isn't a huge difference, with the exception of being able to work with a solid person (as an undergrad) in the field, especially someone who may work in the area you want to work in. Having them be able to 'vouch' for you gives you a leg up on the person who went to an Ivy, got a 4.0, but didn't do as much applicable work.

-t

 

[Ollie123]

I consider my undergrad to be pretty much bottom-of-the-barrel, I don't think I took a single challenging class in any department during any of the 4 years I spent there. Most classes I did next to nothing for and still did well. My first semester I quite seriously did about 20 hours of work outside class TOTAL across the entire semester and got a 3.8. I still maintain that my high school classes were MUCH more challenging than anything I took as a college student.

Had I gone to BU or Cornell (the other 2 schools I was considering attending for undergrad) I'd be in a lot more debt, but I might have gotten looked at by more schools, hard to say. Either way, I got into a graduate program I'm happy with, so it is doable even for us non-Ivy-Leaguers My school DID have good research at least, so I got to be involved in some pretty substantial projects. The fact that I had all the free time in the world since classwork required almost no time meant I could VERY heavily involved in research. This was likely my saving grace, and I think many would argue its better to stand out at a school like that than blend into the masses at Harvard. Wish I had a definitive answer but like most questions on this board I think the answer is "it depends".

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If it matters at all, it will only really matter up until you get accepted (much like grades....B = PhD ). A 'name' may get you a look, but I wouldn't think more than that. The experience is what matters (as long as it is a legit school with a decent reputation), and what you choose to do with your time at school (outside of just classes).

So it doesn't sound like sour grapes, I declined two offers from Ivys for UG (not a good fit for what I wanted).

-t

 

[Ollie123]

Exactly. I've had opportunities to do things here that I probably would not have at an Ivy just due to more competition and it being hard to stand out from the pack. There's still a part of me that regrets not going to a Harvard/MIT/etc. type school, but then I might have ended up one of those people who has a 3.9 at an impressive school but zero research experience and almost no hopes of attending grad school because of it.

I do wish my classes had been more valuable though. They're what I was paying for and many of them were taught at a level that would have been boring and insulting in middle school.

 

[danzgymn86]

As long as your grades are good and you took somewhat difficult classes along the way I wouldn't worry about it. That is, you shouldn't let this factor into you program search.

I actually do have quite a few challenging courses. We need 45 credits of upper-level courses and the other 75 credits can be lower-level. I will graduate with at least 72 upper-level credits and about 130 credits total.
So I am not taking the easy way out of things. Like, my entire senior year, I am going to take all upper-level courses. Basically, I SUCK at intro-level courses and do poorly in them all. I also have WAY more classes in my major than I need, as well. (Exact numbers excaping me at the moment.)
And, I've loaded up on the research experience.

 

[Ollie123]

Provided your overall GPA is still okay, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

Maybe you'd have gotten a look from a school that otherwise wouldn't have if you were at Harvard. Doubt it, but there's nothing that can be done about it at this point, and its not a very important factor anyways.

What I do know is someone who graduated with a 4.0 from Harvard who did nothing but study all the time and do well in class has near-zero chance to attend graduate school. Someone who does very well at another school with tons of research activities is in a much better spot.

From what I have seen, research and LORs are what get you in. Every professor I know has said that once students meet basic GPA cutoffs it really ceases to be much of a factor. If you have a 2.9 it will be hard to get looked at. But the difference between a 3.7 and a 3.8 is so negligible it won't make much difference, whereas relevant research training (best of all if you get a pub!) is solid gold.

 

[JockNerd]

Would you really *want* to work with someone who placed a huge emphasis on where you went instead of what you did well you were there? So you get in because you went to Duke... then next year someone from Harvard applies. Are you going to get ignored if that Hah-vard guy/gal knows more people?

UG experiences are what you make of them! You can do great stuff at a "low-ranked" school and do nothing at a "top" school.

 

[Quynh2007]

personally, i know my ug name helped make up for my slightly below avg gpa.

 

[joetro]

Looking at the list of incoming clinical students in my cohort, we all graduated from top private or public universities. Someone there last year was from a top liberal arts school, so don't think you have to have gone to a strong research school. As my incoming school is a public school, a good number of students graduated from universities from that state.

 

[Ollie123]

Out of curiosity, mind saying what school you are at joetro? You can PM me if you don't want to say on the board.

I'm just curious what kind of school it is, since I don't think any of the grad students at my grad school or my undergrad came from a top school. Wondering what kind of schools are primarily taking students from top-ug's.

 

[clearcolor]

On that note, at one of my interviews for a clinical psych PhD, every single person being interviewed (about 10-15) was from a top 20 school, probably top 10, but I cant remember now. I think there may have been one more interview group (which may have been for other fields in psych), but the difference in UG schools between these two groups was remarkable.

The school was private, a top-research school for clinical psych, and top UG school. But it was my only interview like that.

 

[KillerDiller]

I, too, had one interview where the majority of applicants came from top UG schools. This was only one interview, though, and this was not the case at other schools.

 

[blindblonde]

You know, I have often wondered about this as well. I have a solid 3.83 UG GPA, but I came from a small liberal arts school that many ppl haven't heard of. I'm still going to a top masters program, which I hope will balance out this effect when I reapply for Fall 2009, but it was a little frustrating for me this year. I know I had good experience and training in my undergrad career, but you have to admit, some academics are biased by reputation, one way or another.

 

[danzgymn86]

This is dumb, but just humor me. Okay, I'm going to give a random list of schools...in your opinion, would any of these schools have an effect on an application either way?
One is mine...but it's buried somewhere in the list

Emerson College
Mount Holyoke
University of Rhode Island
University of Mass-Amherst
University of Fort Kent (Maine)
Quinnipiac University
Yale University
New York University
Central Connecticut State University
SUNY Buffalo
University of Maine
University of Connecticut
Penn State University
Smith College
Western New England College
Northeastern University

 

[Ollie123]

I'd say Yale, NYU and possibly Northeastern would carry a bit of added weight. Never heard of Western New England, Mount Holyoke or University of Fort Kent, so MAYBE minus a few points. Rest are somewhere in the middle. The main reason some of the schools lose points is only because it makes me doubt the research opportunities available there, it actually has little to do with GPA or classwork.

Regardless, I doubt its a REALLY drastic difference beyond the fact that someone who got into Yale for undergrad is probably either VERY smart or a legacy, plus Yale has more resources than most other places so they might be able to stand out easier as a whole.

Someone at Fort Kent who does really well is still much better off than someone at Yale with an okay GPA who does nothing though.

Then again, this is all my opinion and I definitely had not heard of an interview like some of these folks mentioned where everyone was from a top 10 or top 20 UG, so its entirely possible I am as wrong as can be, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[psychanon]

This is dumb, but just humor me. Okay, I'm going to give a random list of schools...in your opinion, would any of these schools have an effect on an application either way?
One is mine...but it's buried somewhere in the list

Emerson College
Mount Holyoke
University of Rhode Island
University of Mass-Amherst
University of Fort Kent (Maine)
Quinnipiac University
Yale University
New York University
Central Connecticut State University
SUNY Buffalo
University of Maine
University of Connecticut
Penn State University
Smith College
Western New England College
Northeastern University

Quite Good effect: Yale, Mt. Holyoke, Smith [Ollie, MH is a seven sisters school, as is Smith]
Sorta Good: Penn State, NYU
Neutral: all others except
Slightly Negative: Western NEC, Central CT SU, U of Fort Kent (the ones nobody has heard of and they sound like 3rd rate U's.

For what it's worth, my program has a health mix of ivies, good privates, top publics, and smattering of schools no one has ever heard of. If the person at University of Fort Kent is the top person who has ever come through the psychology program there, s/he may have a decent chance vs. the person at Yale who would have to compete with droves of other overachievers just to get a spot in a lab.

 

[Sorg1123]

This is dumb, but just humor me.

Northeastern University

If I were reviewing applications I'd wonder what a NU grad did for co-op experience. Good give someone a leg up in clinical experience and research vs other undergrad programs. wink wink

 

[KillerDiller]

I have to admit that, if all things were equal, I would probably look upon the graduates of Yale and NYU more favorably and possibly also those from Smith and MH. The tricky part about the admissions process, though, is that things aren't going to be equal enough to make that sort of direct comparison very often. Also, as soon as you get to the interview stage, all bets are off. If you don't come across as personable and capable, it's not going to matter where you graduated from.

It's not really fair that people judge others based on their undergraduate institution, especially when so many students make their desicions for financial reasons. People make snap judgements based on all kinds of criteria, and those judgements are also often unfair. It's simply the way people are and it seems unlikely that those particular prejudices associated with prestige are going to change any time soon in the modern, merit-based world.

The way I see, it, in most cases, if a person graduated from a reputable undergraduate school, it indicates a certain level of achievement and ambition in their younger years. If a person graduated from a school with less of a name, it doesn't mean that those qualities were missing, it only means that one may have to look for other, perhaps less obvious, indications of those traits.

 

[Ollie123]

Wow.
Yeah, definitely never heard of it before. Never seen a publication by anyone from there or met anyone there at a conference either. Perhaps they just don't have anyone in my area.

Knew Smith was 7 Sisters but I still don't feel it quite carries the weight of the others.
Edit: (Felt above statement required more explanation).
While this may not make me very popular here, I have to admit I have a bias against small classically liberal-arts colleges. I hope I have enough of a handle on it where it wouldn't cause me to not hire/accept someone later on when I am in a position to make such decisions. I've just had lousy experiences so far working with people who come out of these types of schools...many seem to have no practical skills of any kind to bring to a lab, even compared to grads from my POS undergrad program. Great during interviews, know the literature really well, but just no lab management skills, one FLIPPED when we asked her to do things she considered "icky" like collect saliva samples from participants....sorry, but welcome to psychology research. I guess just a different training model than I'm used to....more philosophical.

I know that's unfair, and I'm sure I've just had bad luck so far, but I can't deny that its started to color my views a bit. So that is my reasoning behind not including Smith. Still had never heard of Mount Holyoke though, which perhaps says something about ME if I've never even heard of a top-notch school.

Either way, I stand corrected

 

[GiantSteps]

There is a great scene in a John Travolta (he has his moments other than struttiing down the street to the beat of the Bee Gees!) movie called A Civil Action in which he plays a lawyer representing some people whose children died or suffered physical harm because of chemicals which some big corporations dumped in the water supply and covered up. On of the corporate attorney invites Travolta to the Harvard club in NYC for an initial meeting. Travolta tries to start conducting business and the corporate attorney refuses to do anything other than put his feet up on the table and insist that Travolta do the same while they have a drink. He asks Travolta why he does not know the rules of the Harvard club which he says forbids formal business deals to be conducted. So a confused Travolta says he has never been there before. The corp lawyer says "I thought you went to Harvard." Travolta: "No, Cornell." Corp Lawyer: "I could have sworn you went to Harvard (and adds sarcastically) well Cornell, that's a damn good school!

Many text book social psychology experiements have been done showing that people prefer people who are like them. I think this hold true of psychology professors selecting their students. I would not be surprised if a state university educated professor would choose a fellow state grad over an Ivy League type and an Ivy League type professor would do the opposite. Of course, since so many applications have to go through administrators first, who knows what they prefer - DeVry Inst. of Technology over Harvard!

 

[joetro]

I think I should clarify my post a little. I think where you want to undergrad is one of MANY criteria that could be used in the process, and it is by no means the most important. Focus on what you can change now rather than worry about something to which you've already committed. Do well in school, wherever that is. Focus on your personal statements and research experience.