question about DO

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glamqueen

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Why is it that the stats for DO schools (avg MCAT etc.) are lower than the allopathic ones? From what I understand, the DO approach teaches what the MD's learn, as well as osteopathic methods, so it seems they are almost learning more than MD's, yet the avg stats of their admitted are lower...why so?

And forget "flaming" me...I'm seriously just asking a question, and for some reason everyone is extra sensitive on this board, so please respect the fact that this is a legitimate question and not meant to be rude or "trollish." I'm honestly just curious..
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There are alot of reasons.
From what i think most people try to go the allopathic route first. its is more 'recognized' on a world-wide scale especially. you can secure the super competitive residencies with more ease (altho you still have to be smart as heck and do very well on the boards. as a do if you rock the step 1 you will have a vast array of options, maybe just a little less bc some residency programs dont even look at do applications)
 
glamqueen said:
Why is it that the stats for DO schools (avg MCAT etc.) are lower than the allopathic ones? From what I understand, the DO approach teaches what the MD's learn, as well as osteopathic methods, so it seems they are almost learning more than MD's, yet the avg stats of their admitted are lower...why so?

And forget "flaming" me...I'm seriously just asking a question, and for some reason everyone is extra sensitive on this board, so please respect the fact that this is a legitimate question and not meant to be rude or "trollish." I'm honestly just curious..
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Your question may be legitimate, but it has also been asked a nauseating amount of times; even a lackadaisical perusal of SDN should reveal this. I am frequently amazed by the lack of effort by many pre-meds in doing some very basic research. Very well, I'll humor this question one more time:

Andrew Taylor Still said:
Some DO schools process almost 4,000 applications per year. I dont know about you, but 4,000 applications for 250 spots seeems pretty competitive to me.

I think the lower entrance numbers are from a few things:
1. Older student population
2. Number of "non traditional" students
3. Precedent of lower numbers attracts applicants with lower numbers.


ATS
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So why does everyone talk on and on about how DO is just like an MD or how you can still get the competitive residencies etc. If what you say is true - why on earth would people want to pick the harder route if for ex. the residency they want is surgery, which isn't really related to osteopathic methods (you are a surgeon - no hands on exams)? I can definately understand why primary care seems to be prevalent, but why would people interested in other specialties even apply?
 
I get that people have asked it before, but usually those threads are "answered" with ridiculous, flaming answers instead of real ones...
 
glamqueen said:
So why does everyone talk on and on about how DO is just like an MD or how you can still get the competitive residencies etc. If what you say is true - why on earth would people want to pick the harder route if for ex. the residency they want is surgery, which isn't really related to osteopathic methods (you are a surgeon - no hands on exams)? I can definately understand why primary care seems to be prevalent, but why would people interested in other specialties even apply?
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well first of all not everyone can get into md schools. so they go do for the 'harder' route. and as surprising as this is, some people actually like it!
you can use OMM for post-surgery.
 
glamqueen said:
So why does everyone talk on and on about how DO is just like an MD or how you can still get the competitive residencies etc. If what you say is true - why on earth would people want to pick the harder route if for ex. the residency they want is surgery, which isn't really related to osteopathic methods (you are a surgeon - no hands on exams)? I can definately understand why primary care seems to be prevalent, but why would people interested in other specialties even apply?
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Not sure where you are getting the idea that surgeons don't do hands on exams. They are one of the more physical exam oriented specialties out there. Ortho/Sports Med is another specialty in which DO's can significantly leverage their hands on skills. Seriously, you need to do some research on SDN before you continue with this thread.
 
I'm a nontraditional with a husband who has changed his whole life and living situation not to mention me - it's been hard enough to change careers! So I guess I'm impressed with those people...

Thanks, by the way, for answering honestly and nicely...I really was just curious about what I was asking...
 
Sorry, UltimateDO, but I haven't been to medical school, and this is a STUDENTdoctor forum, and as far as ortho - my mother broke her hip in two places last month. I was there every step of the way with her, and not once did her ortho surgeon even touch her. Not once! So your claims that I need to research more are unfair, because I am allowed to ask questions just like the next person based on an experience...

And that experience was actually WHY I referred to a surgeon...
 
glamqueen said:
So why does everyone talk on and on about how DO is just like an MD or how you can still get the competitive residencies etc. If what you say is true - why on earth would people want to pick the harder route if for ex. the residency they want is surgery, which isn't really related to osteopathic methods (you are a surgeon - no hands on exams)? I can definately understand why primary care seems to be prevalent, but why would people interested in other specialties even apply?
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I think you are misinformed; please do some basic research, first, to dispel the myths. OMT is indeed useful in surgery, especially in facilitating post-operative recovery. Surgical exams can be very hands-on. Anyway, OMT is also useful across a number of other specialities. The problem isn't that OMT is inapplicable, it is that practicing DO's choose not to use it.

It isn't necessarily harder to get a specialty of choice; it is sometimes harder. Basically, the criteria for residency match is not as straightforward as one might think. For example, I've heard time and time again that, along with board scores, getting to know the institution in which you intend to seek residency is one of the more important factors. Doing a sub-internship at a hospital and performing well there can play a huge role in getting accepted into the residency program. Also, you need to understand that DO's have their own residencies, too, but can also match in the allopathic residencies. Of course, it can sometimes be more difficult to match in particular allopathic residency programs, depending on a number of factors; it's hard to quantify the difficulty across the board. Anyway, if you put in your best effort and perform well, you are going to fair well in the match, for the most part.

Also, sometimes pre-meds can't see past numbers and statistics. Sometimes the choices people make are due to emphasizing other factors that may not be obvious to a 21-24 y/o applicant. For example, non-trads that have families might choose a school based on location and on what is best for their family. You can't reduce a decision of this magnitude to single factors; it is complex and it is a very individual choice.
 
glamqueen said:
Sorry, UltimateDO, but I haven't been to medical school, and this is a STUDENTdoctor forum, and as far as ortho - my mother broke her hip in two places last month. I was there every step of the way with her, and not once did her ortho surgeon even touch her. Not once! So your claims that I need to research more are unfair, because I am allowed to ask questions just like the next person based on an experience...

And that experience was actually WHY I referred to a surgeon...
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UltimateDO hasn't necesarily been to med school either. maybe HE did research. no need to be so rude :thumbdown:
her ortho surgeon must not have been a do :laugh:
 
I'm not sure I was the one that was rude actually. I was merely explaining why I referenced the specialty I did in relation to my question...

And you are probably right - her ortho probably wasn't a DO....
 
med school will absolutely eat you alive if you can't get by without being spoonfed :thumbdown:
 
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If anyone asks a basic question on the DO forum that doesn't "worship and praise" the profession, you guys accuse us of not being able to do research. In fact, those of us that do do research find threads of these same questions ending in flaming answers rather than legitimate ones....it's frustrating and ridiculous. I don't think the DO profession is anything to laugh at, but you guys have got to drop these "holier than thou" attitudes or no one other than admitted DO's or applying DO's are ever going to show any interest in your chosen path....

edited for a typo...
 
glamqueen said:
Sorry, UltimateDO, but I haven't been to medical school, and this is a STUDENTdoctor forum, and as far as ortho - my mother broke her hip in two places last month. I was there every step of the way with her, and not once did her ortho surgeon even touch her. Not once! So your claims that I need to research more are unfair, because I am allowed to ask questions just like the next person based on an experience...

And that experience was actually WHY I referred to a surgeon...
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Be careful about generalizing from a single anecdotal experience. That's why it's good to do some observation across time, with several doctors, and across a variety of procedures and patients. Every doctor has a slightly different approach and different procedures and patients will require different tactics.
 
glamqueen said:
If people can't ask a basic question on the DO forum that doesn't "worship and praise" the profession, you guys accuse us of not being able to do research. In fact, those of us that do do research find threads of these same questions ending in flaming answers rather than legitimate ones....it's frustrating and ridiculous. I don't think the DO profession is anything to laugh at, but you guys have got to drop these "holier than thou" attitudes or no one other than admitted DO's or applying DO's are ever going to show any interest in your chosen path....
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I fail to understand how your statement applies to me. I answered your question, despite having answered in a similar fashion many times before. There are few things more dangerous than rampant generalization. Everybody wants a short-cut to get somewhere. I spent a long time listening to and scouring the posts on here, read articles and opinions, and talked to, and walked in the shoes of, both MD's and DO's before even thinking about asking any questions here. At the end of all that research, I found out that I really didn't have anything further to ask because I had developed my own educated opinions.
 
glamqueen said:
If anyone asks a basic question on the DO forum that doesn't "worship and praise" the profession, you guys accuse us of not being able to do research. In fact, those of us that do do research find threads of these same questions ending in flaming answers rather than legitimate ones....it's frustrating and ridiculous. I don't think the DO profession is anything to laugh at, but you guys have got to drop these "holier than thou" attitudes or no one other than admitted DO's or applying DO's are ever going to show any interest in your chosen path....

edited for a typo...
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MAYBE...maybe...people on SDN are, on average, reasonably intelligent people who expect others here to be of similar quality. To many of us, that means doing some BASIC research ELSEWHERE before bothering the rest of us with questions that they could have easily answered themselves.

Maybe. Who knows:rolleyes:
 
glamqueen said:
If anyone asks a basic question on the DO forum that doesn't "worship and praise" the profession, you guys accuse us of not being able to do research. In fact, those of us that do do research find threads of these same questions ending in flaming answers rather than legitimate ones....it's frustrating and ridiculous. I don't think the DO profession is anything to laugh at, but you guys have got to drop these "holier than thou" attitudes or no one other than admitted DO's or applying DO's are ever going to show any interest in your chosen path....

edited for a typo...
Click to expand...


Asking a question that is helpful to this community and something that hasn't been discussed in a while is :thumbup: . However re-hashing the same issue over and over again is :beat: . As an insecure pre-med, we don't want to hear you trying to convince yourself that DO is the route for you since you couldn't get into an MD school +pity+ . If you seriously have questions do us a favor and search the topic and see what has been said before :clap: . After that, if there is something that you don't understand come back and ask. :welcome: . This isn't mean to be rude, but it gets old with the same topic popping up several times a week. I am sure you can realize why that would be.

PS: A few posts down from yours on the same page is this thread which goes over the same topic that you brought up: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=405080
 
This post?

Well, I understood that DO and MD get the same lisensing to practice. Then the question is that why having two different kinds of of school if they essentially do that same thing. DO's concept "treat the whole patient, not just a disease" is not really made up by DO. Medicine as whole (including DOs and MDs) is designed to do this.

I didn't ask why there were two schools, I asked why the stats for DO's were lower....

Your point is now mute. And I'm not some struggling pre-med who can't get into allo...I'm simply asking a question on why stats for DO's are lower if they seem to study even more subjects than an MD in school...

Fail to see how I'm beating a dead horse, but I'll be happy to take my questions somewhere else if they aren't welcome here.
 
glamqueen said:
This post?

Well, I understood that DO and MD get the same lisensing to practice. Then the question is that why having two different kinds of of school if they essentially do that same thing. DO's concept "treat the whole patient, not just a disease" is not really made up by DO. Medicine as whole (including DOs and MDs) is designed to do this.

I didn't ask why there were two schools, I asked why the stats for DO's were lower....
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A 3 sec. search came up with: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=403494&highlight=stats

glamqueen said:
Your point is now mute. And I'm not some struggling pre-med who can't get into allo...I'm simply asking a question on why stats for DO's are lower if they seem to study even more subjects than an MD in school...

Fail to see how I'm beating a dead horse, but I'll be happy to take my questions somewhere else if they aren't welcome here.
Click to expand...

You are basically a troll trying to initiate a flame war over why MD > DO in your own mind. While the topic discussed isn't exactly the same, the goal of the OP is essentially the same. That is why I grouped you with the other OP.
 
glamqueen said:
Why is it that the stats for DO schools (avg MCAT etc.) are lower than the allopathic ones? From what I understand, the DO approach teaches what the MD's learn, as well as osteopathic methods, so it seems they are almost learning more than MD's, yet the avg stats of their admitted are lower...why so?

And forget "flaming" me...I'm seriously just asking a question, and for some reason everyone is extra sensitive on this board, so please respect the fact that this is a legitimate question and not meant to be rude or "trollish." I'm honestly just curious..
Click to expand...

to be honest, i have no idea. they just are. as referenced from before, there can be some reasons such as a larger population of non-traditional/older students. i've heard that DO schools tend to look at the whole applicant and not focus on the numbers so much. i have no idea if that's true, or it's something people tell themselves so they'll sleep at night.

then people ask "well then if these statistics are lower, why do pre-meds reapply and not go DO?" some people just don't want to. to some people, the letters at the end of their name DO matter. to some people, they think OMM is a bunch of hooey. and to some people, they want to have the edge for a competitive residency (although i've seen DOs in many other competitive fields such as derm, plastics, neurosurgery). but in the end (in my opinion), it really doesn't matter. if you're a competent physician, being a DO or MD doesn't matter; the quality (and type) of your treatment will be virtually identical.

your original question is a tough one to answer. if your doubts are stronger than your desire to become an osteopathic physician, then i'd recommend not applying.

and that's all i have to say about that. good luck :luck:
 
glamqueen said:
Why is it that the stats for DO schools (avg MCAT etc.) are lower than the allopathic ones? From what I understand, the DO approach teaches what the MD's learn, as well as osteopathic methods, so it seems they are almost learning more than MD's, yet the avg stats of their admitted are lower...why so?

And forget "flaming" me...I'm seriously just asking a question, and for some reason everyone is extra sensitive on this board, so please respect the fact that this is a legitimate question and not meant to be rude or "trollish." I'm honestly just curious..
Click to expand...

To me it seems that their applicant base has lower stats becuse many use it as a back up to MD, DO just isn't as well known, and they don't have as many schools. Many I think would like stay near their folks or at least in the same state where they went to undergrad. If more people were properly informed abour DO and if there were schools in more states then applicant base stats would rise. Currently the stats are on the rise. I would say 50 years from now DO stats will be near the current MD stats as people start seeing more of them.
 
My goal is actually pretty pure and not "troll", but it's clear you are used to DO's being bashed and expect it. I have a lot of respect for DO's, and I am actually not sure which way I'll go to when I apply myself, however, I do think it is really sad that you are so quick to judge a question, which wasn't an attack.

I am the farthest thing from a troll, and again, I pity your defensiveness of your chosen DO path. Most of us asking these questions are honestly asking them rather than attacking.
 
Thanks to those who did provide answers to my question - it has indeed been answered, and I particularly find the philosophy of looking at the whole applicant attractive. I think that speaks highly of the DO profession, and since I don't intend on specializing in anything obscure - it sounds like a great path. Thanks for the luck - and best of luck to those applying now. :)
 
glamqueen said:
Most of us asking these questions are honestly asking them rather than attacking.
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So what, do you have more than one SN? Maybe the OP is JP who is smashed out of his mind and having fun typing ridiculous posts.
 
I only have one SN - it's glamqueen. I've been active since April of 2007...apologies if you confused me with someone else - I can understand how that could cause issues, as I have no idea who you confused me with or what they posted...
 
HarveyCushing said:
So what, do you have more than one SN? Maybe the OP is JP who is smashed out of his mind and having fun typing ridiculous posts.
Click to expand...

Mmmm...JP smashed...and masquerading as "glam!" i'd pay to see that.

Look. No one here is being overly defensive of the DO profession. We're just tired of having to weed through the same poorly (or in most cases, non) researched posts trying to get to the worthwhile ones. If you really did look around on SDN and you noticed every other thread turning out just like this, why did you still post? Why do you think you're any different from those other trollish types that can't perform a decent google search?
 
glamqueen said:
Thanks to those who did provide answers to my question - it has indeed been answered :)
Click to expand...

...whew!!! :)

I was typing up a reply similar to Vix206's response.

good luck.

Everyone should chill out. I would imagine that 95% had this very same question. Don't make me start doing searches to find who posted it. :D
 
I posted my question anyway, because I was actually hoping someone would give me a real answer on why....I actually wanted to really know. And since I'm not a troll and wasn't trying to post like one - thought it might work out and get answers etc. And it did despite the minimal drama. So thanks! I'm seriously not a troll, but as for my screenname - it's just something silly that I thought would be fun to post my pre-med questions under. Sort of ironic. It is a stupid name - I do agree!
 
glamqueen said:
I posted my question anyway, because I was actually hoping someone would give me a real answer on why....I actually wanted to really know. And since I'm not a troll and wasn't trying to post like one - thought it might work out and get answers etc. And it did despite the minimal drama. So thanks! I'm seriously not a troll, but as for my screenname - it's just something silly that I thought would be fun to post my pre-med questions under. Sort of ironic. It is a stupid name - I do agree!
Click to expand...

Well, I think there is a measure of defensiveness evoked by the question that you ask. It's unfortunate, but I think it's true. Sometimes, I think DO's can be their own worst enemy. Anyway, I'm sorry if you felt abused by us. I am sure we did not mean to approach so roughly. Some of us have answered a lot of times, so we kind of get tired. That's not an excuse for poor treatment, however. I recommit to being of assistance.

Anyway, what gets me wounded up about the question that you pose is the importance that premeds tend to give premedical stats. They are useful for admissions purposes, i.e. screening applicants, and for very modest and limited predictions on some aspects of medical school performance. Yes, the average statistics for an osteopathic matriculant are somewhat lower than the average statistics for an allopathic matriculant. So what? There doesn't appear to be an impact on clinical performance and physician quality. There is sufficient sensitivity present in the range of values that exist in the pool of osteopathic medical school applicants to be effective in the admissions process and producing competent medical students. These metrics appear to be serving their purpose for both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools. Beyond that, the stats are meaningless. There are more important metrics beyond these undergraduate statistics once an applicant matriculates and begins the journey into medicine.

The manner in which a physician functions and practices, and his or her quality, appear to be largely path-independent. MCAT score and UGPA, while hugely important in the pre-medical world, are not the determining factors in physician quality. While the two values have modest correlations with medical school performance and board scores, they are not sufficiently robust to be meaninful outside of these modest predictions; they are primarily used in screening applicants during the medical school admissions process. After matriculation, there are other factors that are much more determining.
 
glamqueen said:
I posted my question anyway, because I was actually hoping someone would give me a real answer on why....I actually wanted to really know. And since I'm not a troll and wasn't trying to post like one - thought it might work out and get answers etc. And it did despite the minimal drama. So thanks! I'm seriously not a troll, but as for my screenname - it's just something silly that I thought would be fun to post my pre-med questions under. Sort of ironic. It is a stupid name - I do agree!
Click to expand...

i didn't say it was a stupid name, i think it's kind of cute. What i DID say was that the thought of JP smashed out of his skull dressed in sparkly drag is just hilarious beyond words.
 
glamqueen said:
If anyone asks a basic question on the DO forum that doesn't "worship and praise" the profession, you guys accuse us of not being able to do research. In fact, those of us that do do research find threads of these same questions ending in flaming answers rather than legitimate ones....it's frustrating and ridiculous. I don't think the DO profession is anything to laugh at, but you guys have got to drop these "holier than thou" attitudes or no one other than admitted DO's or applying DO's are ever going to show any interest in your chosen path....

edited for a typo...
Click to expand...


The reason they tend to torch everyone that asks a question about DO vs MD is because they're mad that they can't get into a MD school and had to settle for DO.
 
Superman19 said:
The reason they tend to torch everyone that asks a question about DO vs MD is because they're mad that they can't get into a MD school and had to settle for DO.
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There are probably some folks that think like that, but I want to reiterate that I think generalizations are dangerous. Your post appears to have contempt on top of generalization. In any case, you are far from fact and that should be noted.
 
So far I have found the following reasons why DO stats are lower
because of these reasons people will choose to go MD first

1) Significantly Harder to get more competative residencies
2) Name recognition is not as great
3) Harder to obtain jobs in more prestigious institutions?
4) Have to do an extra year of Internship before residency to practice in 5states
5) Have to learn OMT---if you dont want to
6) Less research opportunities
7) Have to take USMLE and COMLEX if you want to go to Allo residency


If I am wrong please clarify?
 
Superman19 said:
The reason they tend to torch everyone that asks a question about DO vs MD is because they're mad that they can't get into a MD school and had to settle for DO.
Click to expand...

Not the :banana::banana::banana: guy again.
 
BubbaGump187 said:
So far I have found the following reasons why DO stats are lower
because of these reasons people will choose to go MD first

1) Significantly Harder to get more competative residencies
2) Name recognition is not as great
3) Harder to obtain jobs in more prestigious institutions?
4) Have to do an extra year of Internship before residency to practice in 5states
5) Have to learn OMT---if you dont want to
6) Less research opportunities
7) Have to take USMLE and COMLEX if you want to go to Allo residency


If I am wrong please clarify?
Click to expand...

I think points 1 and 3 are arguable. It think it might be true in some instances, but it's hard to quantify difficulty across the board.
 
Thanks for the further responses...I do appreciate it. I hope to have good "posting" relationships with other posters throughout this experience, and I have awhile to go before I'm done (I'm a next June applicant). Thanks for the further info too, and I do appreciate you guys recognizing my non-trolliness....

Thanks guys :)
 
glamqueen said:
Thanks for the further responses...I do appreciate it. I hope to have good "posting" relationships with other posters throughout this experience, and I have awhile to go before I'm done (I'm a next June applicant). Thanks for the further info too, and I do appreciate you guys recognizing my non-trolliness....

Thanks guys :)
Click to expand...

You bet! Feel free to PM me. I am open to any reasonable question. If I don't know the answer, I can try to direct you to a place where you might be able to find it.
 
spicedmanna said:
I think points 1 and 3 are arguable. It think it might be true in some instances, but it's hard to quantify difficulty across the board.
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I am not sure about those as well.....can you please show me DO's working in large prestigious universities..

Also where do most DO's practice....private practice?
 
Superman19 said:
they can't get into a MD school and had to settle for DO.
Click to expand...

I think this is a misconception by many pre-meds. I can only speak for myself, several of the DO schools that I interviewed at (KCUMB, DMU, CCOM) not only rivaled some of the MD schools I interviewed at (UIC, Rush, SIU, Loyola), but in some aspects were better than their MD counterparts. To state that ALL DO students couldn't get into MD schools is false. Many students make their decisions based on location, curriculum, costs..etc. Not just the imaginary "presitge" of getting an MD after their name.
 
BubbaGump187 said:
.....can you please show me DO's working in large prestigious universities..
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I'm not the best person to be asking that question. However, keep in mind that about 5% of the physicians in the United States are osteopathic physicians. Therefore, it would seem unsurprising to me that osteopathic physicians may not be highly represented in a given area of practice. Thus, in light of the fact that osteopathic physicians are the minority, I would be cautious about drawing conclusions about difficulty in becoming a faculty member based on numbers alone, although I'm sure you will find unreasonable selectivity in some cases.

Also where do most DO's practice....private practice?
Click to expand...

I found a great website with a lot of distribution statistics. It'll give you something to chew on.
 
glamqueen said:
Thanks for the further responses...I do appreciate it. I hope to have good "posting" relationships with other posters throughout this experience, and I have awhile to go before I'm done (I'm a next June applicant). Thanks for the further info too, and I do appreciate you guys recognizing my non-trolliness....

Thanks guys :)
Click to expand...

Sorry that you felt attacked. Usually we are very helpful to sincere posters. However when someone has created an account in the past month or two and hasn't contributed a lot to the community, we tend to look skeptically at posts like these no matter how sincere they might have been. As you hang around the forums, you will realize that many of us will be willing to give you a helping hand.
 
BubbaGump187 said:
I am not sure about those as well.....can you please show me DO's working in large prestigious universities..

Also where do most DO's practice....private practice?
Click to expand...


If you look hard enough you will find them. In general a majority of DO's will go into PC. However you will still find quite a few DO's in sub-specialties. Since only ~5% of physicians are DO's, you can't expect there to be a large number of them at "prestigious universities". Also many DO's tend to be isolated in geograhical areas, or may be associated with an osteopathic medical school.
 
BubbaGump187 said:
So far I have found the following reasons why DO stats are lower
because of these reasons people will choose to go MD first

1) Significantly Harder to get more competative residencies
2) Name recognition is not as great
3) Harder to obtain jobs in more prestigious institutions?
4) Have to do an extra year of Internship before residency to practice in 5states
5) Have to learn OMT---if you dont want to
6) Less research opportunities
7) Have to take USMLE and COMLEX if you want to go to Allo residency


If I am wrong please clarify?
Click to expand...

I think another reason that average DO stats are lower is because the top 25 or so MD schools skew the average scores for all MD schools. The elite MD schools really are in a league of their own.
 
Jack Daniel said:
I think another reason that average DO stats are lower is because the top 25 or so MD schools skew the average scores for all MD schools. The elite MD schools really are in a league of their own.
Click to expand...

Riker here.

Is there any proof of this? :confused:
 
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