Question: D.O.

[Bhiga]

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I'd just like to ask how is an osteopathic school different from an allopathic one? What different curricula are there, such as OMM (what does that stand for anyway, and what is it)? What is the focus, if it is different from an allopathic school. Also, I heard that the average entrance scores in terms of MCAT and GPA were slightly lower than into an MD program, why is this, if it's true. I know I can get this information from a website or other, but I thought a first hand opinion would be infinitely more useful. Thanks, any information would be helpful.

 

[bkpa2med]

I'm not a DO Student, only pre-DO/MD. OMM stands for Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine and I believe that is the only real difference between the two.

 

[Taus]

You are likely go get many different responses to this question from pre-meds...however this is my take on it as a first year Osteopathic Medical Student.

Every single course we take is identical w/ the exception of OMM (Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine)....OMM is in addition to all of the other basic sciences such as Pharmacology/Pathology/Microbiology/etc etc etc. OMM is a combination of manual, hands on, teqniques that we learn to treat many common muscular and skeletal pains, conditions, aches, etc. Many aspects of it are used by several other health professionals, such as Physical Therapists, Athletic Trainers and Chiropractors. Keep in mind that for a D.O., OMM is a complimentary form of medicine, as it is used in combination w/ every other standard type of medicine that you are familiar with. Some D.O.'s graduate and go through MD residencies and/or go into a specialty where you would rarely get a chance to use this (ie surgery, dermatology, etc) and thus don't have a chance to use it much in practice and work just like an MD. The Doctors who get to use it the most are the primary care doctors ( ie Family Practice, Pediatrician, Internal Medicine) and several others (Sports Medicine and PM&R.) Some choose to use it a lot, some use it rarely and some not at all.

For the ones that don't use it at all in practice, they still got the benefit of learning anatomy and the biomechanics of the body not just on a cadaver, but also on their live classmates. This aspect of learning aids in the hands on diagnosis of injuries and also the comfort level w/ touching patients.

The only other difference in the education is the emphasis moreso on primary care then specialties. Some MD schools are the same way, but most focus and pride themselves on getting their students into "competative" specialties and many students look down upon primary care. I'm not saying that all MD schools look down upon primary care, but most of my friends at MD schools do. At a DO school, you will likely have to do more rotations in primary care specialties and will have more clinical faculty teaching you that are family practice physicians. In my opinion, it just fosters a different mindset....one where not everything is driven by prestige or making the most money...but on providing quality patient care. That is a huge part of the DO schools' mission statements. (though I may sound like a hippocrite b/c my school, pcom, places 2/3's of their students into specialties outside of primary care).

As far as the lower entrance statistics...think about it. MD is a household name and many pre-medical students are not aware that some Doctors are DO's. People tend to go w/ what they know and assume that anythign different is lesser or inferior. Therefore, many medical school applicants, especially the ones who always had to get the 4.0's and prestige/ego boost from getting what people assume is the best (grades/schools/etc) only go for the MD as they think its the "best". That is understandable, as I did not know what a DO was until my sophomore year in college. It is also a fact that some pre-MD students apply to DO schools solely as a back-up b/c of the somewhat easier entrance stats. That is unfortunate, but is the truth. In the end, everyone regardless of your MCAT/GPA, has to take national board exams and eventually board certification exams...so your college stats count for nothing the day you enter medical school as long as you can pass your med school exams and the national boards.

Wow this was a long one..hope that helps clear some things up...

 

[Taus]

here some links to further explain OMM:

http://ommguru.blogspot.com/

The above page has a lot of info, along w/ links at the top, right hand corner to many other sources.

Its also inevitable that someone on here will say that there is no research into OMM....well thats b/c they didn't look for it. Here ya go:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=99957

 

[Ypo.]

I'd just like to ask how is an osteopathic school different from an allopathic one? What different curricula are there, such as OMM (what does that stand for anyway, and what is it)? What is the focus, if it is different from an allopathic school. Also, I heard that the average entrance scores in terms of MCAT and GPA were slightly lower than into an MD program, why is this, if it's true. I know I can get this information from a website or other, but I thought a first hand opinion would be infinitely more useful. Thanks, any information would be helpful.

DO schools have less stringent acceptance criteria (although not by much) than MD schools because they are less known, and so there is less competition. Its the same reason why its easier to get into a State school than into Hopkins or Harvard.

The quality of education is going to be excellent at any medical school you go to in the US, whether it be DO or MD.

One drawback of DO is that there are less post-graduate residency programs specifically for DOs than there are for MDs, and so you have to compete with the MDs for those slots. Some of the more competetive ones might have a bias towards MDs-although don't quote me on that because I'm still just a first year in medical school.

If you are really bright and intelligent, you will get into the residency of your choice whether or not you are MD or DO. I think some people go DO because they screwed up their grades in undergrad, or didn't do as well on the MCAT. There are others who definitely want to be a DO because of positive experiences they have had with DOs.

The only significant difference between the education is that DOs learn the OMM (which most of them don't use when they go out to practice), whereas MDs don't learn it. Also, on the whole, DO schools tend to be less research based.

There is essentially no difference between postgraduate residencies. MDs and DOs learn the same stuff, can specialize in the same fields.

 

[Taus]

I agree w/ most of your post yposhelley...except for the less residencies available. It is a true statement that some very competative MD residencies are tougher for a DO to obtain, but you have to remember that we do have more then enough DO-only residencies. When I say more then enough, I mean in MD and/or DO residencies, that there are THOUSANDS of unfilled primary care residencies every year. While not every Doctor will train at Harvard or be a Neurosurgeon, but every US trained Doctor, MD and DO will have a residency waiting for them. It may not always be in the exact field they wanted, but that will be moreso b/c they didn't shine as a medical student and less because of their degree.

 

[Ypo.]

I agree w/ most of your post yposhelley...except for the less residencies available. It is a true statement that some very competative MD residencies are tougher for a DO to obtain, but you have to remember that we do have more then enough DO-only residencies. When I say more then enough, I mean in MD and/or DO residencies, that there are THOUSANDS of unfilled primary care residencies every year. While not every Doctor will train at Harvard or be a Neurosurgeon, but every US trained Doctor, MD and DO will have a residency waiting for them. It may not always be in the exact field they wanted, but that will be moreso b/c they didn't shine as a medical student and less because of their degree.

I thought that DO schools were growing at a rate that exceeded DO residencies. I know that there are more residencies TOTAL than there are MD and DO graduates combined, and that most of them prefer to accept US grads than foreign grads...but I was pretty sure that there aren't enough DO residencies for DO grads. Isn't that one reason why so many DOs take the USMLE?

Edit-and I also know that 'quality' of DO residencies is an issue for many people. I have talked to a few DOs who had to relocate and find a new program when their osteopathic residency program unexpectedly closed, due to lack of funding.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I thought that DO schools were growing at a rate that exceeded DO residencies. I know that there are more residencies TOTAL than there are MD and DO graduates combined, and that most of them prefer to accept US grads than foreign grads...but I was pretty sure that there aren't enough DO residencies for DO grads. Isn't that one reason why so many DOs take the USMLE?

Edit-and I also know that 'quality' of DO residencies is an issue for many people. I have talked to a few DOs who had to relocate and find a new program when their osteopathic residency program unexpectedly closed, due to lack of funding.

There are enough residency spots for all DO grads, as long as you don't mind doing family practice.

Yes, DO residencies are less stable than MD programs, in general.

 

[Ypo.]

There are enough residency spots for all DO grads, as long as you don't mind doing family practice.

Yes, DO residencies are less stable than MD programs, in general.

That sounds more right.

So, I guess anyone going to a DO school should be prepared to take the USMLE and do well if they want to specialize in something else.

Either way-whether you are an MD or DO, it will not guarantee what residency you get into. You have to kick butt on those boards to get into a competetive residency-and that is based on how smart you are and how hard you work, and not on your degree.

 

[Taus]

I don't fault you for not knowing....doomsday predictions on sdn can present things in interesting ways. The fact is that there are PLENTY of DO residencies for our graduates, though some of them may be deemed as "lesser" or not in convenient/desireable locations (ie most of them are concentrated in the DO heavy states). Many, many, many DO primary care residencies go unfilled every year along w/ thousands of MD primary care residencies. The combination of MD primary care residencies being easily obtainable for a DO and the propensity for them to be more spread out accross the country and in bigger hospitals leads to many DO's seeking them. In the end, not every student (MD or DO) will super-sub-specialized...but they will have a residency waiting for them.

The fact that there are so many DO's going into MD residencies and that there are so many DO ones going unfilled, gives little stimulus to open more (albeit it would be awesome if more sub-subspecialty DO residencies were created).

All in all, us US grads will have a residency, and if one works hard enough to make ourselves competative for certain specialties, one will obtain them.

 

[Ypo.]

I don't fault you for not knowing....doomsday predictions on sdn can present things in interesting ways.

I didn't get that info on SDN, I got it from 'the DOs' by Gavitz-although I won't claim I have a perfect memory.
About a year ago I was seriously considering going DO, thats why I looked into it pretty heavily. The two things that turned me off were that DOs tended to be pretty dissastified with the way that the AOA was representing them, and I had no interest in taking up a battle with the AOA, and I certainly had no interest in taking two board exams instead of one. I hated the MCAT enough as it was. Maybe if I was smarter it wouldn't be a big issue for me, but I'd rather just have to tackle one test.

 

[Taus]

That sounds more right.

So, I guess anyone going to a DO school should be prepared to take the USMLE and do well if they want to specialize in something else.

Either way-whether you are an MD or DO, it will not guarantee what residency you get into. You have to kick butt on those boards to get into a competetive residency-and that is based on how smart you are and how hard you work, and not on your degree.

Another, albeit somewhat superficial, reason to take the USMLE is that it allows program directors to "compare apples to apples", especially for the ones who are not totally familiar w/ Osteopathic training. My third year friends who are now on rotations have also told me that at some places...the MD students ask them about their DO education and how it is comparable...when they include in their response that they got a 220-240 (for example) on the USMLE...and the MD students say "oh" and and have the look of "holy **** this guys for real, he beat my a$$ on the USMLE.....end of discussion...

 

[Ypo.]

Another, albeit somewhat superficial, reason to take the USMLE is that it allows program directors to "compare apples to apples", especially for the ones who are not totally familiar w/ Osteopathic training. ...

This is true. I know a lot of DOs want to do away with the COMLEX altogether and just have one standardized tests for both schools. But I suppose the AOA is against that because it would be viewed as a step towards assimilation. Its all political, and unfortunately the student's best interests get screwed.

 

[Taus]

I didn't get that info on SDN, I got it from 'the DOs' by Gavitz-although I won't claim I have a perfect memory.
About a year ago I was seriously considering going DO, thats why I looked into it pretty heavily. The two things that turned me off were that DOs tended to be pretty dissastified with the way that the AOA was representing them, and I had no interest in taking up a battle with the AOA, and I certainly had no interest in taking two board exams instead of one. I hated the MCAT enough as it was. Maybe if I was smarter it wouldn't be a big issue for me, but I'd rather just have to tackle one test.

understandable....but when it comes down to how little that stuff will effect my career....and weigh how much I like the other aspects of the DO education....it made the choice easy for me.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That sounds more right.

So, I guess anyone going to a DO school should be prepared to take the USMLE and do well if they want to specialize in something else.

Either way-whether you are an MD or DO, it will not guarantee what residency you get into. You have to kick butt on those boards to get into a competetive residency-and that is based on how smart you are and how hard you work, and not on your degree.

This statement is misleading.

Most ACGME programs accept the COMLEX (for any specialty.)

 

[Ypo.]

This statement is misleading.

Most ACGME programs accept the COMLEX (for any specialty.)

Its not misleading-they still prefer to compare score results from the same test between applicants. This is why I said DO students who want to specialize in something other than FP should be prepared to take it. And it is also why many do take it. Especially if you haven't decided by your second year what you want to specialize in.

Edit-if you talk to most DO students in medical school, you will find that most recommend at least taking the USMLE I.

 

[Taus]

Its not misleading-they still prefer to compare score results from the same test between applicants. This is why I said DO students who want to specialize in something other than FP should be prepared to take it. And it is also why many do take it. Especially if you haven't decided by your second year what you want to specialize in.

Edit-if you talk to most DO students in medical school, you will find that most recommend at least taking the USMLE I.

mostly true..but add to that IM/Peds/Obgyn/pysch/path/pm&r and maybe a few others where it just wouldnt matter as long as you're not applying to a Harvard-esqe place.

but yes...if you have no idea what you would like to specialize in...and maybe would one day want to be academically focused derm/surgeon/rads/etc...then yes...USMLE should be taken

 

[Ypo.]

mostly true..but add to that IM/Peds/Obgyn/pysch/path/pm&r and maybe a few others where it just wouldnt matter as long as you're not applying to a Harvard-esqe place.

but yes...if you have no idea what you would like to specialize in...and maybe would one day want to be academically focused derm/surgeon/rads/etc...then yes...USMLE should be taken

I just wonder, though-don't these programs still prefer to be able to compare scores from the same standardized tests? I mean, I think that most DO students end up taking the USMLE-and I know that they aren't all going into neurology, derm, etc...

What I'm saying is that no, its not necessary to take it for non-competetive residencies-but I think it helps you get to where you want to be-to maximize your chances. At least, that is the impression I get from talking to students in their fourth year.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Its not misleading-they still prefer to compare score results from the same test between applicants. This is why I said DO students who want to specialize in something other than FP should be prepared to take it. And it is also why many do take it. Especially if you haven't decided by your second year what you want to specialize in.

Edit-if you talk to most DO students in medical school, you will find that most recommend at least taking the USMLE I.

They may "prefer" it, but the test is only mandatory for small number of programs.

 

[Bull's eye]

mostly true..but add to that IM/Peds/Obgyn/pysch/path/pm&r and maybe a few others where it just wouldnt matter as long as you're not applying to a Harvard-esqe place.

but yes...if you have no idea what you would like to specialize in...and maybe would one day want to be academically focused derm/surgeon/rads/etc...then yes...USMLE should be taken

TAKE THE USMLE Even if you think that you will do x residency at x place and it's a lock. Take the USMLE. You only close doors for your self if you don't take it. Worst case scenario you fail the USMLE and don't report it on ERAS

 

[Taus]

I just wonder, though-don't these programs still prefer to be able to compare scores from the same standardized tests? I mean, I think that most DO students end up taking the USMLE-and I know that they aren't all going into neurology, derm, etc...

What I'm saying is that no, its not necessary to take it for non-competetive residencies-but I think it helps you get to where you want to be-to maximize your chances. At least, that is the impression I get from talking to students in their fourth year.

depends on the program....so....as everyone's mom would say "better safe then sorry"....bottom line...we should take the USMLE...even though that does contradict my previous post somewhat

 

[Ypo.]

They may "prefer" it, but the test is only mandatory for small number of programs.

Yes, I agree. But I think that it gives you a better advantage to have the USMLE scores.

 

[Taus]

I just wonder, though-don't these programs still prefer to be able to compare scores from the same standardized tests? I mean, I think that most DO students end up taking the USMLE-and I know that they aren't all going into neurology, derm, etc...

What I'm saying is that no, its not necessary to take it for non-competetive residencies-but I think it helps you get to where you want to be-to maximize your chances. At least, that is the impression I get from talking to students in their fourth year.

depends on the program....so....as everyone's mom would say "better safe then sorry"....bottom line...we should take the USMLE...even though that does contradict my previous post somewhat

its not really a big deal to take both....when you're studying for one, you're studying for the other....just add in some more anatomy/omm/micro for the comlex and more biostats/molec bio/behav. science for the USMLE....is it a bit of a hassle...sure...but doable and worth it?...absolutely