Question for URMs, how could the process improve?

[BestoFriedo-Todo]

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To summarize:
You have a group of people holding 80-90% of medical school seats complaining about unfair treatment, because URM are holding 5-10% of medical school seats. That 80-90% isn't enough for them, they want it all. Otherwise, it is unfair.

Quick to verbalize what they consider to be unfair to themselves, while refusing to acknowledge and ignore the lasting impact of unfair treatment to URM over the course of centuries.

Congratulations on feeling like you're being treated unfairly in the small life event that is the medical school application process. That unfairness and discontent you're experiencing is what URM have dealt with their entire lives. That is what their parents, grand parents and great grandparents felt every moment they breathed.

With that, I am done with this thread. I've been accepted and i'm going to go be an URM in medical school. Good day to you all.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Why are URMs admitted with generally much lower GPAs and MCATs?

Because once you hit a certain point they literally don’t matter in terms of future success. Success defined as successfully graduating medical school, passing all licensing exams, finishing residency, and going on to be a knowledgable and successful physician.

You aren’t getting it. Stats add extremely little in terms of value to a medical school class. Someone with personal, first person life experience from the perspective of a huge chunk of our country’s population does in fact add lots of value.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Actually had someone at a huge, well-known school tell me I’d be a shoo-in if I was [urm race].

Yes, because then you would be being compared against a different applicant pool.

I’m not saying we don’t need URM or to give a fair shake, but I think it’s hugely offensive to assume a student of a certain race needs training wheels when in fact they are brilliant and can be just as competent a physician without training wheels.

They don’t get training wheels. They have to graduate medical school, pass boards, and finish residency just like anyone else.

Admitting a small percent of a medical school class based on their ability to reach a significant chunk of the country’s patient population is not racist.

Saying someone inherently adds more value to a class because of their race is absolutely racist.

No it isn’t. It’s simply a fact based on patient demographics.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Funny how this thread called for comments from URMs, but ORMs just couldn’t contain themselves.

In practice, affirmative action has little, if anything, to do with reparations; it's about artificially equalizing outcomes for groups that perform at different levels.

That is not the definition of affirmative action. Maybe we should be using a different term as actually AA is no longer practiced in several states. In the scheme of things, such a small percentage of seats go to URMs all over the gpa/MCAT spectrum. Why are many ORMs more concerned about this false sense of discrimination against them than the actual discrimination that URMs face before, during and after Med school? QTNA.

 

[dr_kateb]

I feel like you're purposely being inflammatory when it isn't called for. A person's lived experience is certainly a factor and race plays into that strongly. I have yet to meet a black person-regardless of class-who has not reported being a victim of direct hate speech and oftentimes worse. Sometimes by representatives of the very community structures that are supposed to support them. As someone else mentioned, it is a "distance traveled" evaluation. ORM applicants with difficult upbringings similarly get "points" for having overcome adversity but their baseline is significantly lower.

I disagree about being inflammatory. I've yet to call other people entitled children.

Because once you hit a certain point they literally don’t matter in terms of future success. Success defined as successfully graduating medical school, passing all licensing exams, finishing residency, and going on to be a knowledgable and successful physician.

You aren’t getting it. Stats add extremely little in terms of value to a medical school class. Someone with personal, first person life experience from the perspective of a huge chunk of our country’s population does in fact add lots of value.

And only URMs have valuable experiences right? None of the applicants are normal people who have gone through adversity. You think that high stats and valuable experiences are mutually exclusive. They obviously aren't and GPA and MCAT are still the most important parts of a application. Doesn't matter if they have no correlation with future success, it's still the most important part and URMs get a pass because they supposedly have better experiences? Prove that they do.

To summarize:
You have a group of people holding 80-90% of medical school seats complaining about unfair treatment, because URM are holding 5-10% of medical school seats. That 80-90% isn't enough for them, they want it all. Otherwise, it is unfair.

Quick to verbalize what they consider to be unfair to themselves, while refusing to acknowledge and ignore the lasting impact of unfair treatment to URM over the course of centuries.

Congratulations on feeling like you're being treated unfairly in the small life event that is the medical school application process. That unfairness and discontent you're experiencing is what URM have dealt with their entire lives. That is what their parents, grand parents and great grandparents felt every moment they breathed.

With that, I am done with this thread. I've been accepted and i'm going to go be an URM in medical school. Good day to you all.

Yes. Only URMs go through discrimination. Only URMs deal with unfair treatment. So dramatic.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Okay, anatomygrey. If you think a Med student inherently adds more value if they are black, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. That’s simply not a point I’m going to argue with, as it is hilariously false.

I believe all men are created equal, period. People can add more value if they add more value, BUT NOT AS RACIAL TOKENS.

Holy ****.

*note: did not say I wasn’t URM. I am not AA, however.*

 

[Osminog]

You aren’t getting it. Stats add extremely little in terms of value to a medical school class. Someone with personal, first person life experience from the perspective of a huge chunk of our country’s population does in fact add lots of value.

Do you have any data to support the claim that a black doctor is better able to treat a black patient than a white or Asian doctor can?

 

[CUatthefinishline]

I disagree about being inflammatory. I've yet to call other people entitled children.



And only URMs have valuable experiences right? None of the applicants are normal people who have gone through adversity. You think that high stats and valuable experiences are mutually exclusive. They obviously aren't and GPA and MCAT are still the most important parts of a application. Doesn't matter if they have no correlation with future success, it's still the most important part and URMs get a pass because they supposedly have better experiences? Prove that they do.



Yes. Only URMs go through discrimination. Only URMs deal with unfair treatment. So dramatic.

I don't think anyone made any of the absolute statements that you are claiming they did about non-URMs. For that reason, you're being inflammatory.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I disagree about being inflammatory. I've yet to call other people entitled children.



And only URMs have valuable experiences right? None of the applicants are normal people who have gone through adversity. You think that high stats and valuable experiences are mutually exclusive. They obviously aren't and GPA and MCAT are still the most important parts of a application. Doesn't matter if they have no correlation with future success, it's still the most important part and URMs get a pass because they supposedly have better experiences? Prove that they do.



Yes. Only URMs go through discrimination. Only URMs deal with unfair treatment. So dramatic.

I feel that you have an incorrect vision of how admissions committees work. This may be contributing to our difficulty to understand each other. Applicants are not given boosts specifically because they are black/hispanic/native american. Each is evaluated holistically for their achievements, academic potential, and contribution to their class.

And, for @Osminog

Patients trust a doctor their own race more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18474881

Medical students are better prepared for having a racially diverse class:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=182528

 

[OchemOficionado]

Do you have any data to support the claim that a black doctor is better able to treat a black patient than a white or Asian doctor can?

They said added value, not superior treatment. If you don’t understand how diversity improves health outcomes then google it or use the SDN search function. Honestly, this thread isn’t for this. Let’s stop derailing it before it’s closed.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

They said added value, not superior treatment. If you don’t understand how diversity improves health outcomes than google it or use the SDN search function. Honestly, this thread isn’t for this. Let’s stop derailing it before it’s closed.

+1 I have really enjoyed all the points respectfully brought up in this thread and OP's original questions. If we could resume the part where others respectfully answer the questions given, providing their URM opinions/perspective, that would be great.

 

[dr_kateb]

I feel that you have an incorrect vision of how admissions committees work. This may be contributing to our difficulty to understand each other. Applicants are not given boosts specifically because they are black/hispanic/native american. Each is evaluated holistically for their achievements, academic potential, and contribution to their class.

And, for @Osminog

Patients trust a doctor their own race more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18474881

Medical students are better prepared for having a racially diverse class:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=182528

Do I really need to explain that I was just using a figure of speech to get my point across?

 

[Goro]

Funny how this thread called for comments from URMs, but ORMs just couldn’t contain themselves.

Why are many ORMs more concerned about this false sense of discrimination against them than the actual discrimination that URMs face before, during and after Med school? QTNA.

Because there are people here who think that a seat in medical school is owed to them simply because they have good grades.

Yet again, they fail to realize that it's not about them, it's about the patients, and it's not about what the applicant wants, but what the med schools want.

A career in Medicine is a privilege, not a reward for being a good student.

 

[COMMANDER CLOWN]

What people have to realize is that this process is NOT a meritocracy. Yes you have to perform well within your group, but certain groups are more privileged than others. That's just how it is, and it's not likely to change.

 

[878956]

Educate yourself: History of antisemitism in the United States - Wikipedia

Also, note that many Jews in the US are the descendants of people who were targeted for systematic extermination. It's one thing to be told that you can't use the same water fountain as everybody else; it's another to be subjected to starvation, torture, and medical experimentation during an attempted genocide.

Slaves were also subjected to starvation, torture and medical experimentation.....

But I don't want to make this about who had it worse. This isn't about who had it worst

 

[878956]

You think racism stopped at slavery? Did you forget the Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation? Redlining? Gentrification? Eugenics? Any white person over the age of 40 or 50 has been alive long enough to have benefited from or participated in at least one of those events. Any black person over the age of 40 or 50 has lived long enough to have been hurt by one of those events. And you just want to tell them and their children to "get over it".

Exactly, it's be akin to tell Jewish people to get over the holocaust.

 

[878956]

To summarize:
You have a group of people holding 80-90% of medical school seats complaining about unfair treatment, because URM are holding 5-10% of medical school seats. That 80-90% isn't enough for them, they want it all. Otherwise, it is unfair.

Quick to verbalize what they consider to be unfair to themselves, while refusing to acknowledge and ignore the lasting impact of unfair treatment to URM over the course of centuries.

Congratulations on feeling like you're being treated unfairly in the small life event that is the medical school application process. That unfairness and discontent you're experiencing is what URM have dealt with their entire lives. That is what their parents, grand parents and great grandparents felt every moment they breathed.

With that, I am done with this thread. I've been accepted and i'm going to go be an URM in medical school. Good day to you all.

Well said!

 

[deleted804295]

Great thread from what I've skimmed through so far.

I'll read through it when I have time. Hopefully individuals don't ruin this thread for everyone by shutting it down.

 

[Osminog]

Exactly, it's be akin to tell Jewish people to get over the holocaust.

Except Jews already largely have gotten over it. They are, by quite a wide margin, the most successful ethnic group in America. They don't use their past oppression as a crutch to rationalize underachievement and stagnation.

Anyway, this is a conversation that's best suited for PMs or SPF. I'm out.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

What people have to realize is that this process is NOT a meritocracy. Yes you have to perform well within your group, but certain groups are more privileged than others. That's just how it is, and it's not likely to change.

It's not perfectly meritocratic. It remains more meritocratic than virtually any other industry.

In practice, medicine still has large numbers of extremely privledged, extremely narrow, extremely sheltered people. Separating privilege from merit can be a real challenge, and I don't think the mild preference about 1% of seats receive is objectionabl e. Certainly it is nothing to be furious about.

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

Interesting.

Page 1: Asking URMs how best to improve the process
Page 3: The Holocaust

Can't wait to see what page 5 entails

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There are plenty of AAs who are still distrustful of medicine in general, and they are why we need more AA physicians/HCPs regardless of stats.

Indeed. There is a lot of evidence that patients are more compliant when they feel they relate with their physician, and seeing a physician who looks like them is an excellent way to accomplish that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Slaves were also subjected to starvation, torture and medical experimentation.....

But I don't want to make this about who had it worse. This isn't about who had it worst

Agreed. There really is no point in comparing the Holocaust to slavery. They are different. Both horrible, but the differences between the two are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Exactly, it's be akin to tell Jewish people to get over the holocaust.

No one told us to "get over it." We just did. The best revenge is telling all those people to go **** themselves by not only surviving, but thriving. Obviously, we still remember what happened, but we have used it as a foundation to build on rather than a ceiling we can't get above.

But again, this stuff is not super relevant. We can discuss URM policies without getting into a flame war over whether Jews or Blacks had it worse. I really never understood why Jews and Blacks didn't get along better considering our histories.

 

[OchemOficionado]

But again, this stuff is not super relevant. We can discuss URM policies without getting into a flame war over whether Jews or Blacks had it worse. I really never understood why Jews and Blacks didn't get along better considering our histories.

Terrible yet different histories does not automatically result in solidarity for several reasons. It takes more commonality than that. I could share some perspective in PMs later or in the social forum if there's a related thread.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Terrible yet different histories does not automatically result in solidarity for several reasons. It takes more commonality than that. I could share some perspective in PMs later or in the social forum if there's a related thread.

Oh, I realize that. I just don't want to get into it on this thread and derail it. If you want to PM me, feel free. I always like a good convo.

 

[BestoFriedo-Todo]

You're trying to make them see something that they don't experience.
The proof is written throughout America history and still ongoing. Some people just refuse to acknowledge it.

The people who do matter, the AAMC and all the Medical School Admissions Committees, can see it and have fully acknowledged it because it is reality. That is why these programs exist. URM will continue to get acceptances, graduate and become physicians.

 

[goatmed]

Something I don't think has been mentioned in this thread (skimmed a bit through character attacks so I could be wrong)
Racial biases make black patients less likely to receive pain medications than white patients for the same conditions even when adjusted for pain severity (source)

This and other findings about beliefs commonly held among medical students and residents, and even in antibiotic prescriptions of children are a good suggestion that we need more exposure to those groups and to understand their perspectives, which is why a diverse matriculating class is not only good for the patients, but (as somebody already argued) for the students of other ethnicities. I can't speak for adcoms, but I imagine they have this in mind when they "build" matriculating classes.

 

[calivianya]

so you're saying URM patients can be racist against non-URM physicians? And we as a society has a job to select physicians based on their racism even if it is unfair.

Yes, absolutely.

Independent of all the other ways this thread has gone - whether it's logical for them to feel that way, which group is more persecuted, whatever... it still remains that the best way to get URM patients that are racist/biased against ORM providers to go see a provider is to have more URM providers. And it also remains that having a provider to go see routinely means health problems can get caught before they're emergencies. We have to at least give people the opportunity to have a provider they'd be willing to see, whether they'll actually get in the door to see that provider or not.

It's not a problem for racist white or Asian people to find doctors that look like them.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Quoting one of the most insightful posts I've read on this topic:
(Credit @aprimenumber from like 2015)

Have you read The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down?

If you haven't, the book details the real-life case of a Hmong child who was diagnosed with epilepsy, and due to various miscommunications and cultural differences between the American physicians and the child's Hmong parents, the child's conditions lead to permanent brain damage and disability. This is an example where it would have helped had the physicians understood, or made greater efforts to understand, Hmong culture and their views and interpretation of various Western medical practices. It's not far-fetched to think that a physician of Hmong descent would likely have been more sensitive to such differences, and would likely have adjusted his/her care in order to facilitate a better comprehensive treatment of the child.

The same reasoning applies towards people from, let's see, probably every single culture. For example, it's not that a black physician would inherently always provide better care for black patients than white physicians, but there is value in a diversity of experiences and backgrounds in the healthcare work force. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that some black people are distrustful of white people injecting them with things given our country's colorful bioethical history, but it may ease their fears better for another black physician to be the one to explain to them that the injections are safe, and to assure them that the injections are designed to prevent disease rather than to spread it. As a country of many cultures, we do the population a great medical disservice by not making an effort to incorporate as many perspectives as possible into the field.

 

[Lucca]

An important element of the AAMCs policy is that URM trainees are more likely to serve under-represented communities in the long run. Beyond the debate of whether this or that doctor can treat this or that patient better or worse we should really understand that the main problem in the United States is that so, so, so many people who need a doctor don't have one, can't see one, can't afford one. That's not too surprising considering that places in the United States are not that much more integrated than the Jim Crow south. Austin's I-35 is a literal color line dividing wealthy and overwhelmingly white neighborhoods from poorer, minority communities. I've volunteered in clinics on both sides of the line and the difference in patient populations is immediately apparent, but so is the difference in who is treating the patients. Southside of Chicago comes to mind as well. These people don't have doctors because the doctors we are training don't want to live in, near or serve those communities, pure and simple (ppl from rural communities also come to mind).

If people were as up in arms about actual injustice as they are about people with a slightly lower MCAT than them becoming physicians to fulfill a mission, there wouldn't be any unarmed black people being killed by the police, there wouldn't be people living in fear of languishing in detention centers and prisons for living in overly criminalized communities, kids growing up without parents for the very same, there wouldn't be people being rejected from jobs for having the wrong kind of name or appearing too ethnic or foreign on paper, there wouldnt be underperforming and underfunded schools, there wouldnt be people of color rejected from housing applications, there wouldn't be any of it.

In any case, more or less good job keeping the arguing to a minimum, please keep that up.

 

[OchemOficionado]

An important element of the AAMCs policy is that URM trainees are more likely to serve under-represented communities in the long run. Beyond the debate of whether this or that doctor can treat this or that patient better or worse we should really understand that the main problem in the United States is that so, so, so many people who need a doctor don't have one, can't see one, can't afford one. That's not too surprising considering that places in the United States are not that much more integrated than the Jim Crow south. Austin's I-35 is a literal color line dividing wealthy and overwhelmingly white neighborhoods from poorer, minority communities. I've volunteered in clinics on both sides of the line and the difference in patient populations is immediately apparent, but so is the difference in who is treating the patients. Southside of Chicago comes to mind as well. These people don't have doctors because the doctors we are training don't want to live in, near or serve those communities, pure and simple (ppl from rural communities also come to mind).

If people were as up in arms about actual injustice as they are about people with a slightly lower MCAT than them becoming physicians to fulfill a mission, there wouldn't be any unarmed black people being killed by the police, there wouldn't be people living in fear of languishing in detention centers and prisons for living in overly criminalized communities, kids growing up without parents for the very same, there wouldn't be people being rejected from jobs for having the wrong kind of name or appearing too ethnic or foreign on paper, there wouldnt be underperforming and underfunded schools, there wouldnt be people of color rejected from housing applications, there wouldn't be any of it.

In any case, more or less good job keeping the arguing to a minimum, please keep that up.

PREACHHHH, Lucca!!! You’re on point in this thread. I love it, but lot of people here aren’t gonna like what you had to say AT ALLLLLLL, lol. I think this thread is gonna be closed by the time I wake up in the morning. You mentioned about 4 things many like to pretend don’t even exist and then you said keep arguing to a minimum. LOL.

 

[Lucca]

PREACHHHH, Lucca!!! You’re on point in this thread. I love it, but lot of people here aren’t gonna like what you had to say AT ALLLLLLL, lol. I think this thread is gonna be closed by the time I wake up in the morning. You mentioned about 4 things many like to pretend don’t even exist and then you said keep arguing to a minimum. LOL.

lol ppl can @ me in my PMs if they want, I'm not shy.

I think this thread has been really insightful for the most part and I enjoy thinking about education in general and reading people's perspectives on it, whatever their background. Not really out to prove anything other than share my own.

 

[Bloxorz]

It's a fact that AAs face significant and constant discrimination.

A black boy born at a similar SES than a white boy tends to wind up significantly worse off than the white boy, even after adjusting for education, parental structure, and neighborhood crime.

A black person with similar stats to a white person likely went through additional significant challenges to get to that point, and that is considered.

Even ignoring the whole fairness factor- non-URM graduates are very unlikely to practice in minority communities. This is just a fact. The fact that these groups also tend to matriculate into medical school at a disproportionately low rate only compounds the problem of medically underserved communities. This is why it's important to graduate URMs. I

TLDR: Ethnic status is considered in admissions for the sake of both fairness and practicality.

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[mistafab]

That book was pretty boring but I learned a lot. Would recommend it to anyone, though it isn’t the most fun. 3.5/5 for enjoyment, 5/5 for content.

Would probably have enjoyed it more but reading it was required for a course I took in undergrad. Required reading is just never as fun.

Quoting one of the most insightful posts I've read on this topic:
(Credit @aprimenumber from like 2015)

Have you read The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down?

If you haven't, the book details the real-life case of a Hmong child who was diagnosed with epilepsy, and due to various miscommunications and cultural differences between the American physicians and the child's Hmong parents, the child's conditions lead to permanent brain damage and disability. This is an example where it would have helped had the physicians understood, or made greater efforts to understand, Hmong culture and their views and interpretation of various Western medical practices. It's not far-fetched to think that a physician of Hmong descent would likely have been more sensitive to such differences, and would likely have adjusted his/her care in order to facilitate a better comprehensive treatment of the child.

The same reasoning applies towards people from, let's see, probably every single culture. For example, it's not that a black physician would inherently always provide better care for black patients than white physicians, but there is value in a diversity of experiences and backgrounds in the healthcare work force. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that some black people are distrustful of white people injecting them with things given our country's colorful bioethical history, but it may ease their fears better for another black physician to be the one to explain to them that the injections are safe, and to assure them that the injections are designed to prevent disease rather than to spread it. As a country of many cultures, we do the population a great medical disservice by not making an effort to incorporate as many perspectives as possible into the field.

 

[MedScat]

As a URM with lower stats, I kind of felt guilty for getting in over some of my friends with much higher stats that are ORM. I know I worked extremely hard (as did they) so that's where the guilt stemmed from. I was able to overcome my guilt when I thought about what I actually want to do as a future physician. I want to help patients in underserved areas. Although I do not come from and underprivileged background, I don't feel my passion to help people who need help should be discredited and I feel as though medical schools were able to see that in my application. Although I'm sure my URM status helped me, I think my hopes to help others is what ultimately got me in (when I didn't think I could get in!) and I don't think I should feel bad about that.

Did any other URMs feel similarly at all?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

As a URM with lower stats, I kind of felt guilty for getting in over some of my friends with much higher stats that are ORM. I know I worked extremely hard (as did they) so that's where the guilt stemmed from. I was able to overcome my guilt when I thought about what I actually want to do as a future physician. I want to help patients in underserved areas. Although I do not come from and underprivileged background, I don't feel my passion to help people who need help should be discredited and I feel as though medical schools were able to see that in my application. Although I'm sure my URM status helped me, I think my hopes to help others is what ultimately got me in (when I didn't think I could get in!) and I don't think I should feel bad about that.

Did any other URMs feel similarly at all?

Exactly! I felt the same way. But I do come from a very poor country (Haiti) that really needs help right now, I survived the earthquake there and overcame many obstacles before getting where I'm at now, and by showing my endurance and my willingness and passion to serve unfortunate and underserved populations, I really think that's what ultimately won me my spot in medical school as well.

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[RNthenDoc]

As a URM with lower stats, I kind of felt guilty for getting in over some of my friends with much higher stats that are ORM. I know I worked extremely hard (as did they) so that's where the guilt stemmed from. I was able to overcome my guilt when I thought about what I actually want to do as a future physician. I want to help patients in underserved areas. Although I do not come from and underprivileged background, I don't feel my passion to help people who need help should be discredited and I feel as though medical schools were able to see that in my application. Although I'm sure my URM status helped me, I think my hopes to help others is what ultimately got me in (when I didn't think I could get in!) and I don't think I should feel bad about that.

Did any other URMs feel similarly at all?

You EARNED your acceptance and have NOTHING to feel guilty for!

 

[CUatthefinishline]

As a URM with lower stats, I kind of felt guilty for getting in over some of my friends with much higher stats that are ORM. I know I worked extremely hard (as did they) so that's where the guilt stemmed from. I was able to overcome my guilt when I thought about what I actually want to do as a future physician. I want to help patients in underserved areas. Although I do not come from and underprivileged background, I don't feel my passion to help people who need help should be discredited and I feel as though medical schools were able to see that in my application. Although I'm sure my URM status helped me, I think my hopes to help others is what ultimately got me in (when I didn't think I could get in!) and I don't think I should feel bad about that.

Did any other URMs feel similarly at all?

This was a feeling I used to kind of feel in high school/early-college, but I don't feel at all anymore. I've been passed up for a lot more opportunities than I have been given due to my race, SES, gender, sexual-orientation, nationality, home state, height, age, etc. In some instances it was not appropriate, but in others it had a place (not to say that racism ever has a place, but I even interviewed at a school where I could tell that my race and gender was not something that contributed to their school's goals and something they wanted to mostly ignore). At the end of the day all you can do is apply, and those in charge of hiring/accepting you have the job of evaluating how all of your characteristics and skills line up with their own and their organization's goals.

If you match up, you match up. If they want you, they want you. There's no room for guilt because it's not your job to evaluate & admit yourself. Also, no one owes anyone anything, not even a spot in medical school, and hard work does not always get you exactly what you want, exactly when you want it. That's part of the process; that's part of life. Learn to take your failures and successes with stride (& a little confidence and humility), but the guilt is unnecessary.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

This was a feeling I used to kind of feel in high school/early-college, but I don't feel at all anymore. I've been passed up for a lot more opportunities than I have been given due to my race, SES, gender, sexual-orientation, nationality, home state, height, age, etc. In some instances it was not appropriate, but in others it had a place (not to say that racism ever has a place, but I even interviewed at a school where I could tell that my race and gender was not something that contributed to their school's goals and something they wanted to mostly ignore). At the end of the day all you can do is apply, and those in charge of hiring/accepting you have the job of evaluating how all of your characteristics and skills line up with their own and their organization's goals.

If you match up, you match up. If they want you, they want you. There's no room for guilt because it's not your job to evaluate & admit yourself. Also, no one owes anyone anything, not even a spot in medical school, and hard work does not always get you exactly what you want, exactly when you want it. That's part of the process; that's part of life. Learn to take your failures and successes with stride (& a little confidence and humility), but the guilt is unnecessary.

I agree 100 percent.

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[CUatthefinishline]

My sentiments exactly. One of the medical schools I am waitlisted at told me I was “too urban” for a research assistant position I applied for 3 years ago.

Life is funny that way. I actually interviewed at a med school (& am currently in some weird limbo with now) that has literally turned my job application down more than 5x's. In multiple departments lol

Edit: I've also had recruiters and job interviewers tell me I'm too young (read: chipper & of child-bearing age lol), and imply they wanted a "stronger" (read: male) person for the position even though I had significantly more experience and education than other applicants (their actual words). Sometimes you don't fit for whatever reason, and honestly sometimes the people that don't let you in are right. Not always, and not even a majority of the time, but sometimes. Those no's pushed me to keep going for what I really wanted, medicine, but if I had gotten all those yes's then, I would have took the $$ and ran with it so I could get by.

 

[Happymadness]

If you match up, you match up. If they want you, they want you. There's no room for guilt because it's not your job to evaluate & admit yourself. Also, no one owes anyone anything, not even a spot in medical school, and hard work does not always get you exactly what you want, exactly when you want it. That's part of the process; that's part of life. Learn to take your failures and successes with stride (& a little confidence and humility), but the guilt is unnecessary.

Not to throw a wrench into the conversation, but I'm curious to know your opinions on the feelings of guilt for URMs who are white-passing. I feel this guilt, and rightfully so I believe.

My mom is Colombian with dark brown eyes and black hair, and my dad is a blonde, blue-eyed American, so I landed somewhere in-between (brown hair and eyes). I am very white-passing and no one thinks I'm hispanic at first sight. For this reason, I have never experienced the feelings of oppression and social stigma that is experienced by URMs who outwardly express their race/ethnicity. In fact, I experience and acknowledge the white privilege with which I live on a regular basis. Growing up, my mom would commonly put her arm next to mine and say things like "you're so white!" (my sister is darker than me).

However, I still mark my ethnicity as Hispanic/Latino and race as White on official forms. I have no doubt that this helped me get into an Ivy League school for undergrad, and I know that this is going to get me into a better med school than I otherwise would with my stats. I think it's worth noting that I did grow up speaking Spanish, visiting Colombia/Chile/Mexico as a kid to see family, and often lived with my Grandma who doesn't speak a lick of English. I studied Spanish throughout high school (easy A's) and got a minor in Hispanic Studies in college. I'm currently working through a training course to become a certified Spanish medical interpreter. I intend to treat Spanish-speaking patients as a HCP. However, I can't help but feel guilty because my name is white af and I look white af, telling me that I've never really experienced discrimination for my race.

All of my best friends are latino/a, and they very commonly tease me for "being so white" etc. Spanish-speaking patient families always give me a look of shock whenever I break out the accentless Spanish during my volunteer shift. Do you guys think outward appearance was controlled for in the study looking at patient trust vs. doctor race? As far as patients could be concerned, I could just be one of those white people with a fetish for latin culture! Do you think someone like me deserves the URM boost?

 

[Nathan17182]

Not to throw a wrench into the conversation, but I'm curious to know your opinions on the feelings of guilt for URMs who are white-passing. I feel this guilt, and rightfully so I believe.

My mom is Colombian with dark brown eyes and black hair, and my dad is a blonde, blue-eyed American, so I landed somewhere in-between (brown hair and eyes). I am very white-passing and no one thinks I'm hispanic at first sight. For this reason, I have never experienced the feelings of oppression and social stigma that is experienced by URMs who outwardly express their race/ethnicity. In fact, I experience and acknowledge the white privilege with which I live on a regular basis. Growing up, my mom would commonly put her arm next to mine and say things like "you're so white!" (my sister is darker than me).

However, I still mark my ethnicity as Hispanic/Latino and race as White on official forms. I have no doubt that this helped me get into an Ivy League school for undergrad, and I know that this is going to get me into a better med school than I otherwise would with my stats. I think it's worth noting that I did grow up speaking Spanish, visiting Colombia/Chile/Mexico as a kid to see family, and often lived with my Grandma who doesn't speak a lick of English. I studied Spanish throughout high school (easy A's) and got a minor in Hispanic Studies in college. I'm currently working through a training course to become a certified Spanish medical interpreter. I intend to treat Spanish-speaking patients as a HCP. However, I can't help but feel guilty because my name is white af and I look white af, telling me that I've never really experienced discrimination for my race.

All of my best friends are latino/a, and they very commonly tease me for "being so white" etc. Spanish-speaking patient families always give me a look of shock whenever I break out the accentless Spanish during my volunteer shift. Do you guys think outward appearance was controlled for in the study looking at patient trust vs. doctor race? As far as patients could be concerned, I could just be one of those white people with a fetish for latin culture! Do you think someone like me deserves the URM boost?

I'm not white passing by any means, but I am pretty light skinned and I would venture to say that I've faced less discrimination because of it. However, I am still very involved with the African American community and at all my interviews I made it a point to discuss what diversity means to me and how I need to school that has diversity in it's administration, student body, and patient population.

As far as I am concerned, for white-passing individuals, as long as they show a commitment to their community then they deserve the URM "boost" (and honestly, I think every URM should show a commitment to their community in one form or anotheR). The URM "boost" in medical is simply there so that patients will have doctors that not only look like them, but speak their language, have had the same lived experiences as them, ect ect. So, even though you might not look Hispanic, you still speak Spanish which is an essential skill. In my opinion, it doesn't matter that you haven't faced any discrimination. You plan to serve you community when you're a doctor and that's good enough.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

I'm not white passing by any means, but I am pretty light skinned and I would venture to say that I've faced less discrimination because of it. However, I am still very involved with the African American community and at all my interviews I made it a point to discuss what diversity means to me and how I need to school that has diversity in it's administration, student body, and patient population.

As far as I am concerned, for white-passing individuals, as long as they show a commitment to their community then they deserve the URM "boost" (and honestly, I think every URM should show a commitment to their community in one form or anotheR). The URM "boost" in medical is simply there so that patients will have doctors that not only look like them, but speak their language, have had the same lived experiences as them, ect ect. So, even though you might not look Hispanic, you still speak Spanish which is an essential skill. In my opinion, it doesn't matter that you haven't faced any discrimination. You plan to serve you community when you're a doctor and that's good enough.

+1
I had this longer reply ready for @Happymadness but this sums it up really well. It doesn't matter as long as you feel connected to and/or plan to directly serve that community. We're not trying to gate-keep URM status using some brown paper bag. & even if you are passing for white, there are others like you that also need to be represented (e.g. those that may feel odd because they are a part of a URM group that they don't "look" like). It may even encourage others like you, white passing or lighter-skinned to connect more with their non-white culture and aim to serve them, too.

Edit: Oh! & I'm not sure if they controlled for "white-passing" in that study, especially if they just focused on visual representation (e.g. actually seeing someone that is the usual shade found in your community). But I think it should count.

 

[Lettucechop]

the end of the day, an MCAT score doesn’t make you a doctor. I’ve came across physicians both black and white who may have had some high stats, but suck at working with people!! What makes you a Physician has do with having passion to do medicine and work with the underdogs!! There needs to be more doctors willing to take a pay cut and deliver services to Medicaid patients.. so whether one has a 495 Mcat or 515, who cares! Is that person williing to make the sacrifices and commitment to do a service for others? So perhaps, if lowering the Mcat score expectation for someone put out more good physicians in the world and less cold, calculating physicians, the committee must do that in order to fulfill the oath of medicine, especially osteopathic medicine.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

the end of the day, an MCAT score doesn’t make you a doctor. I’ve came across physicians both black and white who may have had some high stats, but suck at working with people!! What makes you a Physician has do with having passion to do medicine and work with the underdogs!! There needs to be more doctors willing to take a pay cut and deliver services to Medicaid patients.. so whether one has a 495 Mcat or 515, who cares! Is that person williing to make the sacrifices and commitment to do a service for others? So perhaps, if lowering the Mcat score expectation for someone put out more good physicians in the world and less cold, calculating physicians, the committee must do that in order to fulfill the oath of medicine, especially osteopathic medicine.

Lol.....

 

[Lettucechop]

Lol.....

Is there a problem ?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is there a problem ?

Your comment was hilariously naive so I laughed.

 

[FroYoOreo]

I know some AA students, who always come to class in designer clothes, but were still able to apply to med school as URM and got into top schools with suboptimal stats and ECs. That sounds wrong to me. No offense.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I know some AA students, who always come to class in designer clothes, but were still able to apply to med school as URM and got into top schools with suboptimal stats and ECs. That sounds wrong to me. No offense.

There's a difference between Under-Represented and Disadvantaged.

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